Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:37, 30 August 2005

Makarov.

Hi, Irpen! Thanks much for creating the article on Admiral Makarov. I was going to do it for, well, almost a year now, but never got to it. Hopefully we'll develop it into something more than a stub it currently is. Ëzhiki (erinaceus europeaus) 21:03, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

Issues on transliteration from Cyrillic into Latin.

One of the remarks I wanted to make is in regards to the transliteration of "Великий князь". As you undoubtedly know, there are millions of ways to transliterate any given Russian word. What you may not be aware of, is that we are trying to make sure that all Russian words used in Misplaced Pages conform to the same transliteration standard, which is described in this article. I am not saying this is the "final final" version everybody must stick to (and indeed, there is a discussion going on on its talk page trying to work out some details), nor I am saying that this is the only correct version in the whole world. It is, however, only logical to at least try using one transliteration system across all of Misplaced Pages to maintain consistency.

As per the articles guidelines, "великий князь" would be transliterated as "veliky knyaz" (see also knyaz).

Let me know if you have questions, and I am looking forward to working with you in future!—Ëzhiki (erinaceus europeaus) 21:03, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your compliments. I don't remember much more about Admiral Makarov than what I wrote in the stub. I agree with the need of consistency in transliteration. I think, however, that when some Russian term is already established in English, the established transliteration should take precedence of the letter by letter rule. My impression (not confirmed though a thorough search though) is that Kniaz iz a more common English usage of the Russian word Князь. However, the google counts for kniaz and knyaz are close enough, so my impression is rather subjective. Also, the article you refered me to gives two choices for transliteration of Великий as both Velikiy or Veliky. The former term seems better to me, but again this is rather subjective. What do you think? I would be happy to abide with a consensus decision in the future. Regards, Irpen 21:31, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I can't force you use one convention over another, especially in cases which are so borderline, although consistency is something I am really trying to maintain (some would even say "at all costs" , although I tend to disagree:)). As far as google goes, it is fairly accurate at identifying "most common usage", and for cases like this one, I myself prefer the variant that conforms to the transliteration standards already in use in Misplaced Pages (which in this case is "knyaz").

Anyway, you can always voice your opinion at the Talk:Transliteration of Russian into English page to see what kind of responses you'll get, although you'll probably have to read through the whole discussion thread first (which, for one thing, is not short) to not miss anything. This is especially true in regards to using "-iy" or "-y" for "-ий". For some reason, "-y" for "-ый" was easily accepted by almost everyone, but there are still some lingering doubts about using "-y" for "-ий" (I, as you might have guessed, prefer "-y" for just the same old reason—consistency).

Take care!—Ëzhiki (erinaceus europeaus) 21:47, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

Hi Ezhiki, I did a little searching myself on this issue. I found that I was wrong and the usage of knyaz prevails over kniaz in English media. I used LexisNexis search of all major English language media over last 24 months. So, I will use knyaz from now on and will correct kniaz for knyaz on pages I will be editing (only if I will have other reasons to edit a page, won't do it only to change i for y). I still think that -iy should be used rather than -y in velikiy becuase it is better to reflect the difference between phonetic pronunciation of the ending in, say, krasny and velikiy. Thanks for bringing this matter to my attention. Irpen 18:44, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Irpen! Thanks for taking time to check on this. I vaguely remember that someone did a similar check in the past (I don't remember the details, though), and that's how we started to use "ya", "yo", "yu" over "ia", "io", "iu" in the first place. Anyway, I appreciate your effort.

As for your user talk page history, alas, not even admins can alter that (I assume that's because it would have been all too easy for rogue admins to abuse this process, and it would be a great temptation to skew the history to one's favor). Whatever shows up in the history, stays there. Most of the good-natured Wikipedians take pride in their user pages being vandalized—it usually means that one either is an active vandal-fighter, or someone who sticks to NPOV in very heated debates.

Thanks again for your time and comments. Feel free to drop me a message/wikimail any time you want to discuss anything.—Ëzhiki (erinaceus europeaus) 19:25, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

My pleasure! I think some way should exist to remove at least the vulgar, foul language or pornographic graffiti from the history (I don't mean to remove messages from short-tempered wikifolks who are not always polite in expressing their disagreement with edits). Well, let it stay for now :). Personally, I don't find such images, even when rather disgusting, to be disturbing. Cheers, Irpen 19:55, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

Arsenal Kyiv

Hi Irpen. I dropped by to tell you that I disagree with one of your edits fiercely. FC Arsenal Kyiv is a contemporary club of independent Ukraine. Not to mention that it is free to name itself however they decide. Thus, you've gone too far in your Kiev edits. Don't cross the line of fighting Ukrainian language. So far, I've been tolerating and sometimes supporting your edits regarding you a cooperative discussing Wikifellow. It would be unpleasant changing my opinion on you. Best wishes, AlexPU

Replied at User_talk:AlexPU#Arsenal. Irpen 22:42, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

Russia

I don't know how the text doublicated. I had some "wikipedia is busy" message and reloaded. thanks for informing me and for reverting. I put the link again. Ben (talk) 15:44, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

Grand Archduke

Well, I don't know much enough on this subject to make any kind of decision either! I will, however, try to do some research on this when/if I have time. Sorry for not being of much help for now.—Ëzhiki (erinaceus europeaus) 18:36, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

FYI

Village_pump Multiple_stub_notices 4.250.168.188 13:44, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Stubs

Hi Irpen - I note that you've added a couple of new stub categories. While I think they will probably be useful, can I suggest that if you intend to add any more you check out Misplaced Pages: WikiProject Stub sorting/Criteria first? Quite a thorough debating process goes on before the creation of stub categories, to ensure that they fit in with current criteria. I suspect also that most stub sorters and editors wouldn't be able to tell which Russian history items were more correctly expressed as East Slavic history or vice versa (and stubs categories are primarily for the benefit of editors). what's more, the templates aren't correctly formed (they shouldn't remain in Category:Historical stubs if they are also in one of its subcategories). Grutness| 02:42, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The proposal to create these stubs was up for comments at Misplaced Pages talk:Russian wikipedians' notice board talk page for about a week. There was one response in support and none objecting. This forum is attended by many editors who frequently post in these topics. The reasons for a separate East-Slavic-history and Russian-history templates are given there too. East-Slavic-history-stub is for events that relate to the history of several East Slavic nations and will help to avoid controversies and reverts on whether it should be in, say, Russian or Ukrainian category when in fact it belongs to both and there seems to be a consensus that many stub templates per article is a bad style. I only created the stubs after giving time to editors to object and, sorry, I did not know about Misplaced Pages: WikiProject Stub sorting/Criteria page. Editors who would create new articles in the topics most likely will be able to tell which of the two categories are more appropriate. I am sorry, if I formed them incorrectly. I tried to follow the instructions at Misplaced Pages:Stub_categories. After creating the stubs I listed them at Misplaced Pages:Stub_categories and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Stub_types as per instructions. Sorry, if I made any mistakes. Irpen 03:24, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like you went through procedures well, and as I said, the stub categories are almost certainly worthwhile. In future, though, it would be good if you also check with the stub sorters, since they are the ones who will be assigning most articles to those categories and it would be good if they knew what was going on! :) By the way, given your description of the two new categories, should Category: Russian history stubs be a subcategory of Category:East Slavic history stubs? Grutness| 03:43, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sure, should there be next time, I would also post a note at stub sorting page. As for your question about subcategory, I am not sure what would be best. I would be weakly in favor of not having one as a subcategory of the other but I would check with other editors for their opinion on that. Thanks, Irpen 04:13, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

I've added a comment about your new stubs at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Criteria#Newly-discovered_stub_categories - feel free to add to or correct any of my comments! Grutness|

Re:Undid some of your changes

You wrote: Sorry, I had to undo some of your changes because some articles you placed into East-Slavic-History-stub category should not be there, I think. BTW, what would you say about WWI and WWII history stubs?

Fair enough - I called them as I saw them, but you clearly know more about the subject than I do. Feel free to do the same again with any others I get wrong. As for WWI and II stubs, they may be a good idea - there seem to be quite a lot of them. Personally I'd prefer to wait until the hostory category is purged of a lot of the bio-stubs that shouldn't be in there, see what is left after that. They'd be worth suggesting on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Stub sorting/Criteria, though. Grutness| 02:17, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am sure that there will be enough WWI and WWII related stubs after any purge of hist-stub category. Many articles there would perfectly fit into the WW category... Anyway, it's your call, guys, to decide. I just wanted to bring this up for consideration. Irpen 07:26, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

Probably better to do that on the Stub sorting/Criteria page than on my user talk page, though! Personally, I think a WWII-stub is a great idea. Grutness|

WWI and WWII stubs (continued)

You wrote: Sure, this can wait if you think it'd better to. As for mil-war-stub, I was thinking that there was a difference between articles that would best fit into mil-stub and those best tagged with mil-war-stub. But maybe it's better to stick with mil-stub. Anyway, I will wait if necessary, and once WW stubs are created, I will help in moving there some articles from other categories.

Hopefully I'll have completed the current pass of hist-stub by about Wednesday or Thursday - should have more of an idea what is needed by then. I have a couple of other things listed on the stub sorting page that I want to make a start on, but there's no reason not to deal with the WW stubs at about the same time. In any case we should probably leave the suggestions up on WP:WSS for about seven days before doing anything with it anyway. But I don't see anyone objecting to WWII-stub and WWI-stub as a good starting point, especially if there are items in mil-stub that would be better there. And any help in moving things over will be much appreciated! Grutness| 06:39, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hi again Irpen - I've just created {{WWII-stub}}, and with any luck I'll add {{WWI-stub}} later today. Grutness| 00:04, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

East Slavic history

It may have been my fault of not explaining this properly. East Slavs are only Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians. Poles and Lithuanians are not East Slavs. Poland and Lithuania related articles may get the east-slavic-history-stub note only when the article is primarily about the events related to the three East-Slavic nations territories of the time when Poland and Lithuania dominated them.

Ah sorry - misunderstood. I'll try to remember in future! Grutness| 00:14, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

bad faith?

Why are you accusing me of bad faith? I am perfectly willing to discuss whatever you like, wherever you like, so long as you are polite. And I havn't commited any sort of copyright vio! I found that accusation quite disturbing. Sam Spade 23:46, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Replied at User talk:Sam Spade/ - archive/Mai 2005 2#bad faith?

Irpen - is too loud

Irpen you are too high in the sky - You are not the cleverest man on Earth (unsigned by anon user)

Indeed, I am not. And I hope you will do some really good edits or improve my past edits, so that reading your articles will make me more clever. Irpen 14:53, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

Talk:Lviv

Oh come on, I don't mind at all! As long as we keep civil discussion it's all right with me. Halibutt 21:46, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

WikiPortal/Russia

Thank you for the kind words. I do admit that WikiPortals are new to me, and I hope this works out. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:01, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

I just think that if I keep on updating it and make it very responsive to the users, it will work out great. Plus, you can discuss any changes you want to be done at the portal talk page. Though, I wish to ask you to do something for me. I ask for you to help administer the portal with me. I will be moving in a few weeks, so I wish for someone to watch over it while I am gone. If you wish to do that, just let me know. Thanks in advance. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:01, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

I will do what I can but I will be loaded up at work during the next weeks. So, I will only have a limited amount of time. However, within my available time, I will try. I will definetely be able to revert vandalism and if I am off the WP for a day or two, I am sure it's already on enough people's watchlists so that vandalism won't stay long. So, thanks again and I will try, Cheers, Irpen 05:10, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch. I will try to pop in every so often, to make let folks know that I am ok. Plus, if you want to change the news, featured article/pictures, did you know, go right ahead. Anyone can change those too. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:21, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Rus' (people)

Offhand, I don't think your suggested merge of Rus' (people) is a good idea, though I might be wrong; please state your case rather than just adding the "merge" tag, and please see my comment at Talk:Rus' (people)#Merge?. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:23, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Hi Jmabel. I responded at Talk:Rus' (people)#Merge?. -Irpen 01:36, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Kijów in Kiev article

Witkacy wrote: "The city was part of the Kijów Voivodship, Poland for 200 years, so what is your problem?--Witkacy 18:12, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)"

Replied at Talk:Kiev#Kijów_in_Kiev_article -Irpen 18:59, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

Delete the unnecessary Russian name and none of my homies will bother you no more.Space Cadet 03:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Stop the exadge! As if mentioning Kijów brought an actual "havoc" to anything! Shyaa...riiight! Logically if Danzig belongs in the Gdansk article, then Kijów belongs in Kiev! Unless you agree with the Britannica convention: current English name throughout, native name bolded in the first sentence, nothing else, unless in the "history" section. In the above case, however, help in getting rid of German names from Gdansk, Szczecin and Wroclaw articles. Your support of logic and common sense will be appreciated. Sincerely, Space Cadet 04:06, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dear Irpen, I'm not on any campaign per se, except of course the "campaign for logic, consistency and justice for all". Your "sobriety" remark was very rude. Your consistent ignoring of my point, only a little annoying. Tell me what you think about the way Britannica handles those issues. Space Cadet 04:40, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The advise above was a quote from the WP guidelines WP:Point directly applicable here, and of course I have no reason to think that you were literally not sober. It was part of the phrase: "Think through your edits for a while..." Read the whole thing again if you please.

I am not ignoring your point? I am trying to convince you to express it clearly at the talk:Kiev page. I have no opinion on Britannica's policy. I would like to stick to the issue at hand which is: (1) should the Kiev article have a RU name in the first line, and (2) should it have the PL name there, or is the RU name alone a sufficient reason for a PL name, or whether the German/Polish naming dispute somehow affects how the Kiev article should look like. If you have anything to say about those issues, please use the talk:Kiev page. Several people, including user:Witkacy, wrote there. You choose to ignore the talk page and simply revert. The justification you give, your quote: "if Danzig belongs in the Gdansk article, then Kijów belongs in Kiev!" and "Delete the unnecessary Russian name and none of my homies will bother you" clearly shows that this is a WP:Point issue. If making a point re the Russian name and an unrelated Gdansk issues is only part of your reasons, please state the rest of at the talk page in response to what's already said there. I am only calling on you reverting your editing yourself if you are motivated solely by WP:Point-like reasons. I have no problem to discuss the issue itself. I hope you will agree to stop this revert war. If you please help improving the Polish section of Kiev history I would really appreciate that. -Irpen 06:30, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

I guess I wasn't sober, yesterday.Space Cadet 09:52, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks to all for stopping this reversion cycle. Since WP:Point is a guideline and not a policy, I can see it might be acceptable under extreme circumstances. When pushed to an extreme stress in an unrelated DE-PL name dispute, several editors chose the Kiev article to make a point. Understandably, I was unhappy about it (I desperately want this to become a better article than it is) but I understand the "consistency and justice for all" logic. Since the intent of the effort was transparently given, I never saw this as foul play and I was simply requesting a cleanup. I was already unhappy about myself reverting the article more than once in a single day (and this was NOT vandalism which I revert comfortably). Approaching or not the 3RR limit I simply didn't want to continue this myself. Therefore I requested a self-reversion from the other side, but another user just went ahead and reverted even sooner. In any case, if we can get together and improve the city article I would be eager to give to it whatever time I have. Cheers, -Irpen 02:15, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

I think we should first fix the voting (survey) policy itself, otherwise, any new vote will suffer the same fate as Gdansk/Vote - i.e. resolve little. See Template_talk:Gdansk-Vote-Notice#Constructive_proposal for my proposal and arguments. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 10:29, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Did you know?

Did you know? has been updated. A fact from the article Garrison school, which you recently created, has been featured in that section on the Main Page. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently-created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

Survey guidelines fixing

So that the Gdansk/Vote horror never repeats itself :) Please see the proposal at my userspace, it is an updated version of Template_talk:Gdansk-Vote-Notice#Constructive_proposal. After I hear (or not) and incorporate comments from you and several other users I know are interested in fixing this, I will officialy move this to Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy) and I would like you to be one of the co-signatures of the proposal. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:10, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tnx for the comments, I tried to incorporate them into the final version. See Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)#Fixing_giant_loopholes_in_Wikipedia:Survey_guidelines. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:35, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Transnistria

I see nothing disputed in this page. --Vasile 04:55, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) I am not able to see what are the the statements and ideas really DISPUTED in the article. It's just a pretention of POV. --Vasile 13:43, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You definetely know nothing about the subject as you pretend. You just want make this article to disappear, disturbing and harassing anyone wants to edit this article. You don't respect the wikipedia rules and you should report yourself to the wikipedia staff. --Vasile 18:31, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Replied at Talk:Transnistria/archive_1#Response_from_the_"Challenger_of_neutrality". --Irpen

Take your Stalinist propaganda elsewhere

Stop the propaganda. It ain't working! Obviously there are tons of people that disagree with you. The smartest way would have been to provide some proof along with your complaints but you did not do that.

So I will politely ask you to either adress the subject of Transnistria in a mature manner or stop herassing the discussion page. Duca

Replied at Talk:Transnistria/archive_1#Response. --Irpen

Re: my page

Thanks for the help! - Kazak 23:28, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ukrainian Oblast's Infobox

Hello! I think we need the new inobox for Ukrainian Oblasts. I inserted flag and CoA of Zhytomyr Oblast, but without an infobox it seems...

If you want - create this infobox, please- then I will try to find more flags and CoAs.

Secundo: Could you check English names for the raions in Zhytomyr Oblast. Cheers! Vuvar1 18:57, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Normanist POV-pusher

Hi, Irpen! I just thought you might be interested to comment on what's going with the article on Igor of Kiev. You may want to checkUser_talk:Dbachmann as well. --Ghirlandajo 19:30, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Slavic name of Constantinople

It is hard for me to contibute anything useful to this discussion between editors who know much more on the topic than I do. However, what's wrong with Slavic name of Constantinople (Tsargrad) mentioned in this particular article. No one is talking about inserting it to every article. However, if there is a context to mention it in WP, there is nothing closer to it than this article. I don't understand why it was completely removed. Having it mentioned as a second name (with Constantinople as the first one) would still be OK, I think. Completely removing it from the middle of the article seems to me unwarranted. Any objections to restore it? -Irpen 03:33, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)

Well, using the Slavic name would imply that the attackers used that name for Constantinople, which would be misleading. We know which language these Rus spoke because, after these attacks, in 950, the Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus wrote that the Rus spoke Old Norse in De Administrando Imperio. You can read a translation here. For instance, he gave the names of the Dniepr cataracts in both Rus and in Slavic. The Rus names:

• Essoupi (Old Norse vesuppi, "do not sleep")
• Oulvorsi (Old Norse holmfors, "island rapid")
• Gelandri (Old Norse gjallandi, "yelling, loudly ringing")
• Aeifor (Old Norse eiforr, "ever fierce")
• Varouforos (Old Norse varufors, "cliff rapid" or barufors, "wave rapid")
• Leanti (Old Norse leandi, "seething", or hlaejandi, "laughing")
• Stroukoun (Old Norse strukum, "rapid current").

Since we consequently know what language the Rus spoke in 950 and these attacks were before that date, the Slavic name for Constantinople would be misleading. It would be more appropriate to state that it was called Miklagard by the Rus. However, I do think that Tzargrad is relevant as a line in the article on Constantinople.Wiglaf 28 June 2005 05:42 (UTC)

Anons

When reverting anons, like you did in Crimea, please look into their contributions. From my experience a 69% of vandals are not satisfied with a single page. mikka (t) 29 June 2005 22:05 (UTC)

Why do you choose to associate anons with vandals? 81.213.0.98 30 June 2005 15:35 (UTC)

There is a very good correlation but you are right: non all vandals are anons and not all anons are vandals. Particularly, I didn't see your edits as vandalism. I reverted them because they seemed to me like pushing of a particular out-of-mainstream POV into several articles. When I revert vandalism, I usually simply say in the edit summary "rv vandal". Reverting your edit, I elaborated clearly the reasons either at the edit summary or at the talk pages. If you disagree, please make your point at article's talk pages. Also, there is nothing that prevents you from persisting with your versions in the articles themselves. But still, pls use talk pages. Most wikipedians, myself included, are open to discussions. -Irpen June 30, 2005 17:45 (UTC)

anon user spreading Polish names randomly

Hmmm, except for this edit, all his other contributions seem quite strange to me. Not that they were nonsensical, but they're simply badly worded and use the Polish names not in the historical context (as it is accepted) but in modern context (which hardly makes any sense). I see no reason not to revert - or at least reword his entries. Halibutt July 1, 2005 10:31 (UTC)

That was my impression too. Thanks! Will take care of it. -Irpen July 1, 2005 15:39 (UTC)

Re: Transnistria

Hi! First let me say that I'm not going to pretend to know anything about the subject of this article, so I will not get involved in discussions on the content of the article. That said, when I saw the request for protection I felt that the parties involved here might benefit from me, as an outsider, monitoring the debate and intervening if necessary. My take on the situation at the moment is that there appears to be useful (if not always civil) discussion going on on the talk page for this article, and that the edit war on the article itself is not out of control. So I have chosen to take a low-key approach—making sure that editors are aware of, and stick to the the three revert rule, but not (yet) procecting the article. Protection at this point might cause a further hardening of positions rather than fostering compromise, however, if within the next day or so it looks like this strategy is not working I will protect the article (if no one else has done so before me). JeremyA 5 July 2005 04:37 (UTC)

I agree with you, the situation seems to have changed during the last 12 hours or so. The discussion at the talk is no doubt useful and civility can and should be handled by RfC rather than protection if gets out of control. I requested the admin action only due to persistent removal of the POV tag. If it is kept intact, the process may be resolved in a regular way. I will get back with my request of protection only if the practice of the tag removal returns to the article. Thanks for your participation. --Irpen July 5, 2005 04:49 (UTC)

Wikiportal:Ukraine

I like it! One question: you mentioned boards on my talk page... where are they? mno

Just look at several windows at the portal. In one window at the right-hand side you will see "new article announcement board" and "Ukraine-related Misplaced Pages notice board". Also, use Portal's own talk page to discuss portal itself. Add all these to your watchlist. Feel free to update any window and, especially, current news. Finally, don't be afraid to screw up. Anything can be easily reverted by you or anyone else. Regards, --Irpen July 7, 2005 05:33 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages talk:Wikiportal/Ukraine re double edit. Sashazlv 7 July 2005 06:46 (UTC)

Re re Transnistria

Your only contribution in "dispute" is restoring tags. Please stop these obstructing manoeuvres, read more wiki-regulations and try something new. --Vasile 11:46, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

(Old) Ruthenia

(moved to Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Old Ruthenia. mikka (t) 19:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC))

Ukrainian Copyright

I was wondering if I would have no problems using photos from the website of the Ukrainian President and Ministry of Defense for my article on Hero of Ukraine? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 20:55, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I will let you know if I can find anything out for sure, but I bet it's pretty safe under fairuse anyway. Don't you think? --Irpen 21:04, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I was more thinking of Public Domain. I want to get the article Featured, but people are now getting upset over the use of Fair Use images being used on these type articles. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:12, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I just answered your question at Misplaced Pages:Wikiportal/Ukraine/Ukraine-related_Wikipedia_notice_board#Ukrainian_copyright_law.27s_very_important_excemption. Thanks for raising the issue. I am sure it would be good to know for others too. Cheers, -Irpen 00:53, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Your quite welcome. Also, please see my response at Talk:Hero of Ukraine. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:08, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I moved the images to the Commons. I also know you asked about if I got many Wiki-national awards: I got two. I got a Barnstar of National Merit for Belarus and for Russia. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:48, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

inhabitans were massacred

I think I read this in Jasienica, with colorful descriptions of buildings full of severed heads awaiting Mazepa and such. I can find the book and check it if you want. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:59, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

You probably read about the massacre of Baturyn. This is already describied in its article. If I am mistaken, feel free to restore of course. --Irpen 23:33, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Russian tsarinas

regarding the names of tsarinas of Russia: if from abroad, they changed their first name, such as Wilhelmina became Natalia Alexeievna, etc. Now, Misplaced Pages has certain rules that the so-called consort name is not to be used, because of several persons being e.g Empress Maria Fedorovna. And that a pre-marital name should be used. But I feel that it is acceptable to make a formulation "Natalia Alexeievna of Darmstadt" (the "of Darmstadt" being for disambiguation purposes) instead of using "Wilhelmina of Darmstadt". Now, as there are plenty of Germanist and anglicist opinions, I would like to know some of international opinion as well as of Russian opinion. In other words, I am asking you to think whether from the perspective a Russian, (1) would it be acceptable to say "Natalia Alexeievna of Darmstadt" and (2) would that be better or worse than "Wilhelmina of Darmstadt". 62.78.105.68 08:50, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

As I mentioned on the talk page for Alexandra, I'm trying to get a policy discussion going on this; there are several other options besides the ones suggested above. Please consider visiting this talk page and endorsing one of the options, or adding one of your own. Thanks! Choess 01:05, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

I tried to find article about Alexandra Fyodorovna of Hesse (wife of Nicholas II, not of Nicholas I) in the Russian wikipedia, but I did not find such article. Could you check whether any such exists? If yes or no, it would anyway be nice to have the English article to have interwiki link to her Russian aricle (please create such article if it does not yet exist in russian wp). 217.140.193.123 19:58, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Medvedchuk

What exactly did he and Kuchma do to "devaluate" the Hero of Ukraine titles? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 07:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Mainly, by giving the titles to non-worthy (by public perception) people as a payoff for their favors. I will try to find something specific and will let you know. -Irpen 08:30, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

List of heroes of Ukraine

Thanks, I am trying to make a fork article/list with everyone who was presented with the title, regardless of they got the Gold Star or State order. I also noticed you presented someone on here with the Hero of Ukraine medal. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:07, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I used it as a Barnstar. Would that qualify for the place in the List of heroes of Ukraine? :). Cheers, --Irpen 01:17, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

I wish. Also, I am not sure if I told you, but I received only two Wiki-national awards: one for Russia and Belarus. I am not sure how many names we can add to the list, but I want to do some more searching. But, I still need to fix some sections in the article before I send this to WP:FAC. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:20, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I added your information into the article. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:18, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Another topic, I think I figured out what some of the Law passed in 2002 by Kuchma is saying (I should add uk-1 to my babel template). The last three things talk about the design of the decorations. The miniature medal, comparing the other decorations I worked on, is most likely the wearer's copy I mentioned about. And the decorations have not changed at all in design or composition. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Even though I do not have much time to work on the article right now, I will happily translate whatever you need. The simple translation from ru/ua languages for another user (not to be placed directly into the article) that I do not have polish don't take much time at all. Just ask and send links. --Irpen 05:38, July 26, 2005 (UTC) P.S. I think we are not yet close to the stage to submit the article for featured candidates, but we'll get there. Thanks again for your enthusiazm to RU/UA topics. Cheers,--Irpen 05:38, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Trust me, we should be fine. Hero of Belarus made it that far, and it is FAC. Pretty much, I just need this site translated. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 08:11, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Also, your quite welcome and check your inbox. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 17:01, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

"Wisła" Action

Hi Irpen, I thought you might be interested to know that I've just started an article about "Wisła" Action. It's not much yet, and I plan to considerably develop it in near future. However, if you are willing to contribute or simply watch progress of this article, you're very welcome. --SylwiaS 12:16, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! Unfortunately my knowledge about this is next to nothing but I will follow the development. I also posted an anouncement at Misplaced Pages:Wikiportal/Ukraine/New article announcements. Thanks~ --Irpen 20:36, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Great! I couldn't find a proper Ukrainian board. If you came upon any official statements of your government about the action, it would be good to add them to the article. --SylwiaS 00:03, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Did just that. --Irpen 07:48, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

Medal Drawing

I got the drawing of the medal that you wanted. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:53, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I will get to translating the page you requested asap. Regards, --Irpen 01:09, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Your quite welcome and enjoy the drawing. Thanks for translating the page, I believe the article is ready for FAC. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:14, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Also, take all of the time you need on the article, we pretty much got everything that is needed. Thanks again. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:29, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Alexandras

Please kindly check Alexandra Romanova - welcome to comment. 217.140.193.123 00:36, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Black Book

Thanks for your efforts, but as I said, User:Witkacy is a troll. This edit should quell any doubts about that. Tomer 12:18, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

Please dont move any discussions in my own name space (it would be nice if you ask me befor) thx.--Witkacy 22:36, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Witkacy, I have no problem with your blanking the talk in your namespace and I have no intention to interfere with this any further. However, the talk page was an integral part of the Black Book and I thought the talk, with its history that includes the comments from users who chose to respond to the Polonophobia accusations, should follow the project page. Again, it is entirely up to you whether you want to allow the responces from the alleged anti-Polonists as well as comments from other users in your userspace. You may blank them on sight, but the history of the talk should be with the black book itself. That was my motive and I am sorry you didn't agree and became unhappy about the page move I did. --Irpen 05:13, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

Tnx

Tnx for the translation! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 10:37, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Needs NPOV for Mintimer Shaymiev

Большую часть текста я взял с официального сайта, поэтому возможно что и не везде НТЗ. С удовольствием прийму участие в обсуждении данного вопроса. --Untifler 16:29, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi Untifler! Спасибо за сообщение. Я к сожалению мало чем могу помочь с материалом для этой статьи. Но даже при моей недостаточной квалификации в этом вопросе, мне показалось, что есть достаточно оснований для НТЗ флага. Наверное Вы со мной согласитесь, что трудно ожидать нейтральной биографии президента на официальном президентском сайте. Впрочем, я понимаю, что даже человеку, следящему за политикой Татарстана, понадобилось бы выделить немало времени, чтобы написать статью о президенте нейтрально и энциклопедично с нуля, и при ограниченном времени до этого могут и не дойти пока руки. На мой взгляд, лучше иметь даже предвзятую, но какую-никакую статью в ВП, чем не иметь ничего. Но естественно, случайный читатель, вероятно осведомленный о традициях в политике бСССР еще менее меня, должен быть предупрежден, что я и сделал.

У меня есть еще одно опасение. Эта статья во многом напрямую взята с президентского сайта. Я не уверен, что это разрешено с точки зрения авторского права. Российский закон подходит к авторскому праву на текст, опубликованоого государственными учреждениями, более избирательно чем американский закон (В штатах считается общественным практически всё, что публикуется государственными организациями). Посмотрите статью 8 росийского закона об авторском праве на wikisource wikisource:Закон об авторском праве и смежных правах#Статья 8. Произведения, не являющиеся объектами авторского права. В любом случае, пожалуйста не воспринимайте мою позицию как критику. Это просто мои предложения. Я слишком мало разбираюсь в предмете, чтобы самому активно учавствовать в этой статье. С уважением, --Irpen 04:43, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Вроде тут нет автогрских прав: сообщения о событиях и фактах, имеющие информационный характер. (А чем ещё является биография?). Если что, то пускай судятся :) --Untifler 12:25, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Exquisite icons

My main problem with describing the Theotokos of Vladimir as one of the most exquisite icons created is that it sounds like an opinion on the part of the article's author -- something we generally steer clear of. Could we source it, do you think? It's certainly exquisite, so it should be no problem finding someone of note and reputation who says so. Philip Arthur 06:25, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you. I will look/ask around. Thanks and please don't take our disagreement over an article name personally. As I said there, I consider all religious topics with outmost respect. As I said at talk:Theotokos of Vladimir, I just think that "Theotocos of ..." is not the best way to name the article. The word can certainly be introduced in the very first sentence and redirect from it will not be deleted. Anyway, we'll see how and when the consensus emerges. --Irpen 06:33, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Hero of Ukraine

Hi. Have you considered voting for it? Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Hero of Ukraine. Sashazlv 03:53, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Re your e-mail

In principle, I agree. Editors must use their resources efficiently. Changing name ordering for its own sake is a waste of scarce time.

However, such a policy may be hard (if at all possible) to enforce. There are too few people who work on Ukrainian articles. And such people may be more productive if they spend time elsewhere rather than check whether other users voluntarily follow the policy.

So, don't worry too much about it. Reasonable people will follow the policy. And there's nothing we can do about unreasonable users. Sashazlv 15:56, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

This would not be a policy, strictly speaking. Rather a kind of ethics code, which I hope others would join. I will drop a note at the portal once I formulate it and post. Maybe you don't remember a Kijow/Kiev wars (preceeded by even hotter Kiev/Kyiv) wars, but there is some discussion still at talk there. But if even Kamianets-Podilskyi's recent edits consisted of 4-5 changing, adding and rearranging names, that spell a global East European sickness. One thing is Varshava in Warsaw or Kijow in Kiev. But K.-P. was the last straw. I will see whether others will agree. This won't be enforceable, because it is not a WP policy anyway. But there are so many excellent editors in Ru- and PL-portals, that getting their help in UA-articles would bring many improvements. Cheers, --Irpen 16:11, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Take it easy. A few hours ago they renamed Yuliya Tymoshenko to Yulia Tymoshenko. I just added a footnote that there is an alternative spelling of the first name.

Regarding the wars. I don't have time to participate in such discussions. Just add a footnote, and everyone would be happy. Sashazlv 05:14, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Image:Orden druzhby narodov.png

Hey Irpen. To let you know, I have replaced this image with a jpg image at Image:Order_Friendship_of_Peoples.jpg. Because of this, I have put your image up for deletion at WP:IFD. FYI, we should upload photographs as .jpg files instead of png files. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:39, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Sure. Thanks! --Irpen 00:40, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Your welcome. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:41, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Ukrainian portal

Thank you, I didn't know this portal ! :) --Bogatyr 16:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

You're welcome! Keep an eye on the boards. Other users announced your articles there already :). Cheers, --Irpen 17:13, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Many Thanks

Thanks for supporting my RFA. It couldn't have happened without your effort. FeloniousMonk 18:22, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

You are weclome. It's interesting that my vote actually mattered this time. It was only so because of a campaign waged for certain reasons. Otherwise, it would have been unimportant. Good luck, --Irpen 18:50, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Recent Kaliningrad Oblast edits

Hello! There have been a number of recent extensive edits to the Kaliningrad Oblast article. The additions look to be in good faith, but I am not terribly familiar with the great amount of Lithuanian history presented now. I also am not sure if that article is the proper place for that content. You might be interested in taking a look at it. Olessi 21:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up! I posted a short request at the article's talk page to start some meaningfull improvement. We'll see how it will go from that. Regards, --Irpen 21:45, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

UGCC & Husar

Thanks for the comments. I implemented your suggestions on the Lubomyr Cardinal Husar page. Let me know what you think of the changed text. Pmadrid 23:46, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I will reply later at his talk page. Thanks! --Irpen 23:50, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Zerkalo Nedeli

Would you consider providing a brief summary of salient features of the article on Piłsudski, perhaps at the "Józef Piłsudski" or "Polish-Soviet War" discussion page? I'm intimidated by the Cyrillic alphabet, or I'd try reading it myself. logologist 01:55, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, the article is rather longish. It does not offer anything drastic or unexpected. I'd say it is pretty mainstream, but since written by a Ukrainian, it places some accents differently than traditional Polish views, I guess.

Please try to read it first if you know some Russian or Ukrainian, but let me know if you still have a difficulty. I will try to briefly summarize its points. Zerkalo Nedeli, as a wiki article says, is indeed a very respectable publication which rarely prints trash. Thank again for the cooperative work. I appreciate your help. Don't hesitate to ask, if you'd rather have me elaborate on the article though. Cheers, --Irpen 02:12, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Belarus portal

I had to fix up the template/portal due to it changing name spaces and due to lack of activity. I will not do the same for the Russian portal, unless it is requested. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:54, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi Zach! Sorry, I don't quite get what you mean. Is it regarding the move from Misplaced Pages:Wikiportal/Name to "Portal:Name". I thought they were all moved already. 99% of activity at RU/UA portals occures at "new article announcement" boards. And most of the remaining 1% is at the other boards. Almost nothing else is updated. Anyway, whatever you did were for better so far :).

Мы мирные люди...
(но наш бронепоезд
стоит на запасном пути)
--Irpen 05:07, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

I found out about the creation of the Portal: namespace last night, so I had to move it there (I moved it myself instead of a script doing it for me). I was sent a message that I needed to clean the page up to make it more reader-friendly. So, I did that. Plus, I have to agree, not much activity takes place at the portals (sadly). Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:09, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

RU/UA portals were moved by scripts, I think. All subpages were moved too, so everything is fine. As for reader-friendlyness, I agree that it's just not too many people doing anything at all. The new articles are well announced and sometimes there is some communication on another board, but that's about it. Unupdated news make a pity impression. The rest could also be improved. Unfortunately, I am almost alone at UA-portal with other participants showing up less and less. RU, portal, to the contrary, is very active. Just check its new article's board. Maybe it's good, for what it's worth, to ask at the portal's talk. If you do, I will make sure it is noticed. I am glad you came over this silly fights with prudes. I am also glad to see that you seem no too upset by their sockpuppet allies. Read the verse above one more time :) (бронепоезд is and armored train, BTW) --Irpen 05:18, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

I just needed a short Wikibreak and school was a very, very easy escape to deal with. Plus, I just got out of VFD and just focused on Belarusian topics. Based on what you told me, I will not change the portals unless all of the members agree to it. The only reason I was able to get away with the Belarusian portal design is that it is a one man show (me). As for the news, I always got them from Wikinews, and Wikinews is not really great when dealing with most nations. Also, I read the statement in Russian, it said that you are a peaceful people. :) I feel better, since I have not tried to act as an admin unless it was in a clear case and I got out of edit wars. It would be very hard for me to leave the project completely, since I fill in a few gaps very, very few even wish to cover. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:28, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, it goes further than that we're just peaceful :). It says that "we are peaceful people but our armored train is parked at the reserve track" :) Have a good one! --Irpen 05:43, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Certainly will and thanks for your continued support, friend. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:48, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Minor edits

You are right, I had "Mark all edits minor by default" set in my preferences. Corrected now. Sorry about that. This one is my first edit that is not minor ;-) --Wojsyl 19:43, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Зеркало недели

I'm concerned that you've added references to a weekly magazine articles to Polish-Soviet War article. While I have nothing against this particular weekly (and I admin I do not know it), I doubt if a popular magazine features research articles that qualify for encyclopedic references in a historical article. What do you think ? --Wojsyl 21:35, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

This is the most reputable Ukrainian weekly. It has a history section written very solidly with no crackpot stuff and it has a full tri-lingual archive available online, especially valuable for online WP. Check the Zerkalo Nedeli article in WP I wrote. Since "WP is not the source" you can also check RU/UA/EN articles from the more recent time to see the level of this publication. --Irpen 21:41, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Reverts

Ghirlandajo's massive deletions can not be considered to be anything but vandalism. There had long been a request for the inclusion of material from Rus' (people) and when I added relevant information under the paragraph "earliest evidence" he just mass removed everything. That is not an acceptable attitude to editing an article, and simple vandalism.

I do not take pleasure by arguing with Russians about their earliest history, and FYI, I am married to a Russian woman, and I have a Russian history professor as a mother-in-law. Unfortunately, my strong Russian connections, and my interest in medieval Scandinavian history makes it important for me that this part of Russo-Scandinavian history is treated fairly.--Wiglaf 23:28, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Wiglaf, I hope you didn't mean that I am among the ones who accuses you in "taking pleasure in arguing with Russians". To the point, whether Ghirlandajo's edits are vandalism or not, I suggest you take another look at Misplaced Pages:Dealing_with_vandalism#What_vandalism_is_not. I am glad to hear about your positive attitude towards the topic. As a matter of fact, I never said anything to the contrary about you anyway. The issue at hand is that however disagreable you find Ghirlandajo's edit, it is incorrect to invoke "vandalism" to may your claim sound more convinsing. Regards, --Irpen 23:34, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

I fail to see that mass deletions are exempted from being considered vandalism. I have to go to bed now, and will resume the discussion tomorrow. Regards,--Wiglaf 23:39, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

PBW talks

I've read all the relevant talk pages before I posted my comments, I wonder what made you think that I didn't. Perhaps I haven't noticed some of the arguments and repeated them, but it was certainly not done in bad faith. Also note that I'm not reverting some of your controversial edits and instead I'm using the talk page. I appreciate your will of discussion and I hope to hear some arguments or a list of things that are actually disputed. Halibutt 00:35, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

For now, I dispute the Kruchkov story, but since it is totally on its head I have doubts about the sources in general, as I pointed at the article's talk.

Also, I would like to see copyvio problems addressed. The article, from which the text was borrowed was not listed in references. I have no way of knowing what else is from where. If you used any other online sources, list them of course, at least at talk, since I cannot just buy and read all the print books listed there. Online refs definetely have to be listed in online WP. Also, only books used in writing should be in references. The rest is "further reading".

In the dispute re outcome of Kiev Offensive we already heard each other. I would like to see what others will say, very much including the Polish editors, maybe not all but most for sure (don't want to call names). Same about Wolodarka.

Finally, for clarity, let's not split the discussion between several pages (yours, mine, articles). You can respond to me at your own talk. I will know :). I only responded here now, because these things are already said at the article's talk. It is important for all conserned editors to see relevant discussions. regards, --Irpen 01:07, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

I believe I already adressed all of your concerns on the respective talk pages. I hope to hear from you soon. I also explained where the heck the part on Kruchkov came from. It was about the only online reference I used and now it is mentioned in the talk. As to the copyvio - please take note that it was in the original version by Piotrus, so I believe you should ask him about it, and not me. As to the other voices in the discussion - unfortunately I doubt it will attract more readers as this matter is not that popular nowadays. Or am I wrong?

Anyway, I prefer to respond on people's talk pages as it is easier for them to notice that there is some discussion going on. Otherwise, I'd have to open about 1000 User talk pages every time someone posts a comment there... Halibutt 01:37, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Kostomarov

Sorry, I had no intention to contribute to the article on Kostomarov. I merely pointed to the fact that the guy represented quite a one-sided view on history and that much of what he wrote (and of what you quoted as a source) is factually inaccurate. So far I didn't have time to finish the chapter. It is fascinating as a monument to Russian vision of history, but I simply left for the weekend (a German wikipedians' meeting on Usedom island) and did not return until 4am today.

As to EB being a decent source - I admit I have (rather bad) experience only with EB1911, which is not a best source for the history of Central Europe as it is known to reflect only the Russian 19th-centurish view and for a complete disregard on other views. I hope modern EB is better than its predecessor. Anyway, I always prefer to discuss original sources rather than other encyclopedias, as it is easier to check the sources the author used - and the author himself. Cheers! Halibutt 00:47, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Encyclopedias simply represent modern mainstream version of its time. If modern EB says that PSW started from Kiev offensive we cannot just say in WP that it started from Vilnius. This is the sense it is important. We can present EB's version along with the other, but we cannot present a version that contradicts EB as the mainstream and discount EB as erroneous. Again, if EB says that the Polish goal of the war was to "seize UA" we cannot just say that its goal was UA's independence. We can say, that there is a dispute but something being in EB means that this is mainstream, or at least one of several mainstream versions.

You may not be ineterested in Kostomarov's article. That's fine. I just want to move the lengthy talk to where it is relevant and that's why I am asking you. I would be interested to know what you say when you finish it. I would like to reply to what you already said but I would like to do it at a diffrent talk page. That's why I asked whether you would mind if I move the material. --Irpen 01:01, August 30, 2005 (UTC)