| Revision as of 01:12, 27 June 2008 editAfil (talk | contribs)52,654 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit | Revision as of 04:31, 27 June 2008 edit undoBiruitorul (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers148,274 edits reNext edit → | ||
| Line 14: | Line 14: | ||
| ***There is nothing preventing us from creating separate, detailed articles, and keeping this one as a general overview.—] • (]); 14:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC) | ***There is nothing preventing us from creating separate, detailed articles, and keeping this one as a general overview.—] • (]); 14:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC) | ||
| ****Dear Biruitorul, I am sure you are aware that the article we are discussing is far from presenting a complete picture of the subject. It presents nothing about the administrative division of the Governorate, it completely ignores the various governors and their policies. It does not present the links between Bessarabia and Moldova, for instance the position of the Governor of Bessarabia during the 1821 revolution - which actually was completely different from the policy of Moscow. It says very little about the demografic changes which took place in that period and which were significant - the data of the 1897 census raise questions: who were the missing 14% of the population who are unaccounted for. What about the Turkish population of Bessarabia - how come they could justify an autonomous region in today's Republic of Moldova, if they never existed in the Governorate of Bessarabia? (This does not include the Turkish population of southern Bessarabia). It does not present any data on the economy of Bessarabia during the The lack of such information does not explain why, after 1940, the southern part of Bessarabia was not incorporated into the Soviet Republic of Moldova but into the Ucraine. The article indicates that until 1905 there was no Moldovan political party, which is correct. However, according to the statistics presented in the article, the Moldovans represented only about 50% of the population. Before that there were other political parties active in Bessarabia, in which both Moldovans and other nationalities participated, which are completely ignored. This distorts the reality, creating the impression that the Moldovans were politically inactive. The history is not presented correctly either. On December 28, 1917 Bessarabia declared its independence from Russia and the Moldovan Democratic Republic was created. On March 27, 1918 the parliament of the new republic voted the unification with Romania. This is not reflected in the article. If according to the article political life started in Moldova only in 1905, can you really claim that the article is neat. There are many more to be said about the contents of the article. However the issue I raised was exclusively the one ot the title of the article, not of the contents. Therefore the proposal of splitting the article would make sense.] (]) 17:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC) | ****Dear Biruitorul, I am sure you are aware that the article we are discussing is far from presenting a complete picture of the subject. It presents nothing about the administrative division of the Governorate, it completely ignores the various governors and their policies. It does not present the links between Bessarabia and Moldova, for instance the position of the Governor of Bessarabia during the 1821 revolution - which actually was completely different from the policy of Moscow. It says very little about the demografic changes which took place in that period and which were significant - the data of the 1897 census raise questions: who were the missing 14% of the population who are unaccounted for. What about the Turkish population of Bessarabia - how come they could justify an autonomous region in today's Republic of Moldova, if they never existed in the Governorate of Bessarabia? (This does not include the Turkish population of southern Bessarabia). It does not present any data on the economy of Bessarabia during the The lack of such information does not explain why, after 1940, the southern part of Bessarabia was not incorporated into the Soviet Republic of Moldova but into the Ucraine. The article indicates that until 1905 there was no Moldovan political party, which is correct. However, according to the statistics presented in the article, the Moldovans represented only about 50% of the population. Before that there were other political parties active in Bessarabia, in which both Moldovans and other nationalities participated, which are completely ignored. This distorts the reality, creating the impression that the Moldovans were politically inactive. The history is not presented correctly either. On December 28, 1917 Bessarabia declared its independence from Russia and the Moldovan Democratic Republic was created. On March 27, 1918 the parliament of the new republic voted the unification with Romania. This is not reflected in the article. If according to the article political life started in Moldova only in 1905, can you really claim that the article is neat. There are many more to be said about the contents of the article. However the issue I raised was exclusively the one ot the title of the article, not of the contents. Therefore the proposal of splitting the article would make sense.] (]) 17:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC) | ||
| ****:Dear Afil, those are fair points. Ultimately the title is not as important as the content, and clearly there is much content still to be added. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 04:31, 27 June 2008 (UTC) | |||
| While I believe the fact that the article is still lacking a lot of things, this has nothing to do with the article title. | While I believe the fact that the article is still lacking a lot of things, this has nothing to do with the article title. | ||
Revision as of 04:31, 27 June 2008
 | Turkey B‑class High‑importance | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
 | A fact from Bessarabia Governorate appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 3 February 2008 (check views). A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2008/February. |  |
This template must be substituted. Replace {{Requested move ...}} with {{subst:Requested move ...}}.
Requested move
Bessarabia in the Russian Empire → Bessarabia Governorate — All exising articles for the Governorates of the Russian Empire have titles indicating the name of the Gorverorate, regardless of the changes which occured after 1917. There is no reason to have a separate rule for the Bessarabia Governorate.Afil (talk) 01:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC) —Afil (talk) 01:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Survey
- Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with
*'''Support'''or*'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Misplaced Pages's naming conventions.
- Oppose, most of the time (between 1812–1871), it was an oblast, not a governorate. This article is about both periods. bogdan (talk) 09:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose per Bogdan and because the article is about more than just the governorate - for instance it deals with Southern Bessarabia when it was part of Romania. Biruitorul 18:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
- Support, although some of the information (not pertaining to the Governorate) will need to be split into separate articles.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
- Wouldn't a split be rather counterproductive? We have a fairly complete picture of the subject neatly presented - why not keep it that way instead of forking off little bits thereof? Biruitorul 02:16, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- There is nothing preventing us from creating separate, detailed articles, and keeping this one as a general overview.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- Dear Biruitorul, I am sure you are aware that the article we are discussing is far from presenting a complete picture of the subject. It presents nothing about the administrative division of the Governorate, it completely ignores the various governors and their policies. It does not present the links between Bessarabia and Moldova, for instance the position of the Governor of Bessarabia during the 1821 revolution - which actually was completely different from the policy of Moscow. It says very little about the demografic changes which took place in that period and which were significant - the data of the 1897 census raise questions: who were the missing 14% of the population who are unaccounted for. What about the Turkish population of Bessarabia - how come they could justify an autonomous region in today's Republic of Moldova, if they never existed in the Governorate of Bessarabia? (This does not include the Turkish population of southern Bessarabia). It does not present any data on the economy of Bessarabia during the The lack of such information does not explain why, after 1940, the southern part of Bessarabia was not incorporated into the Soviet Republic of Moldova but into the Ucraine. The article indicates that until 1905 there was no Moldovan political party, which is correct. However, according to the statistics presented in the article, the Moldovans represented only about 50% of the population. Before that there were other political parties active in Bessarabia, in which both Moldovans and other nationalities participated, which are completely ignored. This distorts the reality, creating the impression that the Moldovans were politically inactive. The history is not presented correctly either. On December 28, 1917 Bessarabia declared its independence from Russia and the Moldovan Democratic Republic was created. On March 27, 1918 the parliament of the new republic voted the unification with Romania. This is not reflected in the article. If according to the article political life started in Moldova only in 1905, can you really claim that the article is neat. There are many more to be said about the contents of the article. However the issue I raised was exclusively the one ot the title of the article, not of the contents. Therefore the proposal of splitting the article would make sense.Afil (talk) 17:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- Dear Afil, those are fair points. Ultimately the title is not as important as the content, and clearly there is much content still to be added. Biruitorul 04:31, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
- Dear Biruitorul, I am sure you are aware that the article we are discussing is far from presenting a complete picture of the subject. It presents nothing about the administrative division of the Governorate, it completely ignores the various governors and their policies. It does not present the links between Bessarabia and Moldova, for instance the position of the Governor of Bessarabia during the 1821 revolution - which actually was completely different from the policy of Moscow. It says very little about the demografic changes which took place in that period and which were significant - the data of the 1897 census raise questions: who were the missing 14% of the population who are unaccounted for. What about the Turkish population of Bessarabia - how come they could justify an autonomous region in today's Republic of Moldova, if they never existed in the Governorate of Bessarabia? (This does not include the Turkish population of southern Bessarabia). It does not present any data on the economy of Bessarabia during the The lack of such information does not explain why, after 1940, the southern part of Bessarabia was not incorporated into the Soviet Republic of Moldova but into the Ucraine. The article indicates that until 1905 there was no Moldovan political party, which is correct. However, according to the statistics presented in the article, the Moldovans represented only about 50% of the population. Before that there were other political parties active in Bessarabia, in which both Moldovans and other nationalities participated, which are completely ignored. This distorts the reality, creating the impression that the Moldovans were politically inactive. The history is not presented correctly either. On December 28, 1917 Bessarabia declared its independence from Russia and the Moldovan Democratic Republic was created. On March 27, 1918 the parliament of the new republic voted the unification with Romania. This is not reflected in the article. If according to the article political life started in Moldova only in 1905, can you really claim that the article is neat. There are many more to be said about the contents of the article. However the issue I raised was exclusively the one ot the title of the article, not of the contents. Therefore the proposal of splitting the article would make sense.Afil (talk) 17:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- There is nothing preventing us from creating separate, detailed articles, and keeping this one as a general overview.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- Wouldn't a split be rather counterproductive? We have a fairly complete picture of the subject neatly presented - why not keep it that way instead of forking off little bits thereof? Biruitorul 02:16, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
While I believe the fact that the article is still lacking a lot of things, this has nothing to do with the article title.
About the missing 14%: those were Gagauz and Bulgarians, who moved from Bulgaria in 19th century. bogdan (talk) 21:16, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- The question about the missing 14% was only rethorical, to indicate that the information in the article was not complete. You are right in your statement that the fact that the article is lacking a lot of things has nothing to do with the title. I was only responding to the statement that the article is fairly complete, which it is not. What I am worried about is that if we accept an article about Bessarabia in the Russian Empire, we could have another article about Bessarabia in Romania or Bessarabia under Romanian rule. Just to play the role of the Devil's advocate, somebody could easily state that Bessarabia - defined as the territory between the Prut and Dniester Rivers did not exist before 1812. Since 1812 it has been most of the time under Russian rule except for 26 years from 1918 to 1944 and even the name of the territory has been given by the Russians and has been contested by Romanian historians a being incorrect. Therefore, somebody could claim that an article about what happened in the province in this interval be called "Bessarabia under Romanian rule" or something similar. While the subject of what happened in Bessarabia from 1918 to 1944 could justify a separate article, I would definitely not like such a title. Therefore the title of Bessarabia in the Russian Empire should also be avoided in order to avoid a dangerous precedent.Afil (talk) 01:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Discussion
- Any additional comments:
- Comment I have difficulties in understanding the objections, when both in the Russian and the Romanian wikipedias the titles of the articles refer to the Governorate of Bessarabia. As far as Bogdangiusca's suggestion is concerned, I don't think that changing the title to Bessarabia Oblast makes much sense. Many Russian regions were first oblasts and then gubernii. However in many cases the head of the oblasts had the titles of governors - this is the case also for Bessarabia. The title " Bessarabia in the Russian Empire" does not make sense as when Bessarabia was part of the Russian Empire it was first an oblast and then a Governorate. There should be some consistency in Misplaced Pages. For instance, when Finland was part of the Russian Empire it was called the Grand Duchy of Finland - which is, correctly, the title of the article, not Finland in the Russian Empire. None of the discussions indicate why Bessarabia had to be treated differently from articles regarding other parts of the Russian Empire. Not liking the Russian occupation of Bessarabia is not an argument concerning the title of the article. Afil (talk) 02:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)