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I added it to categories because the Polish one had it in "Antisemitism." I figured Anti-Zionism would be less perjorative and it seems to specifically fit given their view of Israel. Also, for the record, I am mostly a conservative Catholic and to a degree agree that Misplaced Pages has a liberal/secularist bias. However I figured if we're going to have these categories that might be used where appropriate.--T. Anthony (talk) 04:41, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I know what u mean but look when someone added the category of "Antisemitism" to the Polish article about the NOP :
"15:40 (3:40 pm), 25 lis 2007 - 79.186.171.81" - IP user.
They are adding all over "racism", "Fascism" or even "Nazism" (NOP is anti-socialistic so can't be a Nazi political party but people are uneducated and left-wing propagandists...). I am sure that soon or later someone will remove "Antisemitism" from the article, because NOP doesn't accept any form of "Jewish abbuse". We have big problem on Polish Misplaced Pages with attacks from the left-wing people on the right-wing articles so a lot of changes may occur at the time of long period, that is why we can't mainly create article about the NOP based on Polish Misplaced Pages because we have everyday some attacks from crazy IP users that trying to make NOP to be a nazi or other terrible movement looking organization. Example - "Racism" category occured in the article during the time of almost 3 months before some admin didn't change it. I'm a Roman Catholic and I know what u mean but we can't describe NOP as "Antisemitic Political Party" because NOP doesn't do anything against Polish Jews and to be more specific many of Polish patriotic Jews who gave their live for Poland occurs on the organization "heroes list"... (<- I can give examples for it). NOP is highly against Israel as a country but not a Jews as a people or followers of their religion.
--Greetings ] (talk) 05:37, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
- I see. As I said on my talk page I don't know Polish politics much. Going by what's cited it seemed fair to say they're against Israel and active homosexuality, which is all I meant those categories to say. In the case of the homosexual one I don't much care for the name, and I'm not even sure I supported its existence, but I figured it's better on organizations than living people. Still this group is a member of the European National Front and International Third Position which, as I recall, are a bit extremist. By that I mean I think they are traditionally positive on former Nazis like Otto Strasser.--T. Anthony (talk) 06:34, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
They are against ONLY homosexual propaganda in Poland which is parades, "homosexual books for kids in pre-school", teaching in schools that "homosexuality" is a normal thing. NOP is highly pro-Catholic (Roman Catholic Church) and as a Catholic u know what the Bible says about 2 guys or 2 girls... NOP doesn't care about that what lesbians or gays do in their beds, but will never accept the way how they try to show the people in Poland (90 % are Catholics which in 80 % regularly attending to the mass) "their rights" (constitution and laws in Poland aren't against homosexual people), you know, many Poles (especially the elder one's) doesn't want to see parades what include Boys in skirts, kissing girls and more weird things and as a Catholic so do I. Yes, NOP is a member of the European National Front and International Third Position but focus on this that NOP's ideology is mainly based on Third Positionism so they aren't left (Communism, Nazism) or right (Fascism), they call themselvs as a something "between the Left and the Right". I'm not happy because English version of their site is very poor in detailed informations, Polish version of the site is much better and have more details.
--Greetings ] (talk) 07:21, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
- yeah english wikipedia is very biased and pro-left in many areas, I would like to see wikipedia to be neutral and tell the truth abouth things there is not much anyone can do about it, I don't even try correcting biased stuff to make it neutral - someone will just revert it back. Starzaz (talk) 04:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Anti-Semitism
This reverting has to stop. I have provided 5 citations that say this is an anti-Semitic organization, including books printed by the University of Nebraska, the ADL, and a report by the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs . If reverted, there must be a very, very, very good reason. Ostap 19:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
The reason is that we can't include informations from American and Israeli lias. Do you know what is "Anti-semitism" ?! It's what neo-nazi groups do such as bombing Synagouges, killing Jews or similar things. NOP DOESN NOT kill people, destroy Synagougues. Stop playing around with "Jewish proofs". Sites such as "Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs" aren't NPOV because they call every movement who love it country "anti-semitic", "neo-nazi", "ultra-fasci" etc. Enough with propaganda, time for truth !
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 20:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- That is not the truth. There is nothing wrong with loving your country. You cannot dismiss published materials as "American and Israeli lias". This is against wikipedia rules. The NOP does vandalize the homes of Jewish people in Poland. How is that not anti-Semitism? Ostap 20:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
"The NOP does vandalize the homes of Jewish people in Poland." - This is described as a lie i nPolish Constitution as a lie without strong proofs which can bring u up to 5 years in prison so watch your mouth. Stop kidding, "NOP is destroying Jewish homes" yes sure and NOP is controling Poland... "Love to your country" - Text such as "Ukraine is no Poland" is highly offensive and AGAINST Misplaced Pages rules. To 1939 Ukraine was a Polish land.
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 20:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Did you even read this? It says that the PRESIDENT AND PRIME MINISTER OF POLAND apologized for the vandalism. Why would they apologize for something that didn't happen? Ostap 20:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Other side - They DO NOT include any proofs for their lais. As long as they will not show ANY proofs I will never use it as a NPOV information. For being more sarcastic - "...Polish neo-nazi organization NOP" - Did you know that NOP isn't neo-nazi ?! You ask why ? NOP is ANTI-SOCIALISTIC so DOES NOT "like" Socialists and National Socialists. NOP also DOES NOT want to have a leader like in Nazism or faschism because NOP proclaims "the rule of the nation without corrupted leaders". I told you, Jewish sites aren't NPOV.
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 20:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- This is a Polish site. Ostap 20:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
And here Patriotism called Antisemitism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Krzyzowiec (talk • contribs) 20:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Significant problem
I provided citations for anti-Semitic incidents. These were from a book published by the University of Nebraska, and materials from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the ADL and an online Polish newspaper. Why were these removed? Claiming that these are "American and Israeli lies" is not a valid reason. Ostap 04:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I am going to re-add the sourced information. Ostap 16:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I'll remove ALL false text from the article because even on Polish Misplaced Pages we don't have ANY propaganda about the NOP no such bullshit as "nazi salute" or "Mein Kampf citations". I wonder why all people especially those who doesn't want to remember that now their country was a Poland take the BIGGEST part in propaganda about the NOP such as Ostap who is ukrainian (<what is that ?!). --Krzyzowiec (talk) 03:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- I seriously have no idea what you are talking about. Are you denying that nazi salutes and Mein Kampf citations are true? Read the citations. Its not propaganda. Ostap 20:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Really ? And what now ?
http://www.nacjonalista.pl/wiadomosci.php?id=3832
Polish Court in Strzelce Opolskie described Roman Salute as a patriotic acting which has nothing common to do with the Nazi's Salute. Read the link, I told you that I don't care about opinion of Israeli Organizations as long as they are not in Poland and they make propaganda. Polish law can make a law not israeli nor american organizations.
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 20:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- nacjonalista.pl? Be serious. What's next, a newsflash from wszechpolak.pl? If the court decision can be confirmed with some reliable source; let's add it where appropriate. But, let me repeat: reliable source.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
No offence, learn how to read articles... "gazeta.pl - Z antologii prasy polskojęzycznej".
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 00:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Neautrality and Balance.
Article is strong anti-NOP (which is against of NPOV). It doesn't fit any of Misplaced Pages's NPOV points. Step by step :
Views The manifesto of the National Revival of Poland contains a sentence stating that "Jews will be removed from Poland, and their possessions will be confiscated," taken directly from Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf.
http://www.warsawvoice.pl/view/3096/ - Article is strong anti-NOP, warsaw voice is a left wing online service which describw itself as a "neutral" (article about NOP isn't realy neutral). Please, give me the reference from NOP's site or works of NOP's members that "The manifesto of the National Revival of Poland contains a sentence stating that (...) taken directly from Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf". References from NOP's official site ?!
The official greeting gesture used in the party is the Nazi-like gesture of the raised arm.
The gesture used in the party is called "Roman salute" not Nazi gesture of the raised arm. NOP use salute which has been used in Poland before Hitler's invasion of Poland by random people and Polish Nationalists :
R. Dmowski's Funeral Video with random people and nationalists who salute
The picture of salute used by Polish Nationalists before the second world war (photo in original version is black and white):
http://pl.wikipedia.org/Grafika:Salut.jpg
The saluting soccer players of Wisla Krakow soccer team before the war :
The meeting of Polish Falcon trainers in 1937, they do Roman Salute :
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=5MlzVN52Xp0
Above that, courts in Poland stated many times that Polish Nationalists don't do Nazi Salute but Roman Salute, while doing salute Polish Nationalists never say "Heil Hitler" or "Sieg Heil", they say "Great Poland for ever" which has nothing to do with the Nazis. One of the court's end speech (Sry for no English) :
http://www.nacjonalista.pl/wiadomosci.php?id=4256&licz=1
"Celem stowarzyszenia jest osiągnięcie przez jego członków najwyższego poziomu wartości duchowych poprzez pracę dla Narodu, Jego wielkości i potęgi, praca dla Polski, którą członek ONR pojmuje jako pracę dla całego Narodu, obrona polskości, odrodzenie i pielęgnowanie wartości zgodnych z duchem tradycji polskiej i kultury łacińskiej.
Podczas składania kwiatów pod Pomnikiem Czynu Powstańczego uczynili oni gest pozdrowienia poprzez podniesienie prawej ręki. Geneza tego gestu sięga Cesarstwa Rzymskiego. Był to tzw. „rzymski salut” stosowany podczas powitania cesarza. Gest ten przejęli później włoscy faszyści, a następnie faszyści niemieccy, którzy unosząc w górę prawą dłoń jednocześnie wypowiadali słowa: „Heil Hitler”.
Zgodnie z pkt 5 rozdziału I statutu: „ONR może używać odznak, pieczęci i innych symboli na zasadach określonych w przepisach szczegółowych”. Przepisy te nie regulują jednak kwestii, czy zapis ten odnosi się również do pozdrowienia poprzez podniesienie prawej ręki. Z wyjaśnień oskarżonych wynika, iż omawiany gest nawiązuje do rzymskiego salutu, tradycyjnego pozdrowienia narodowców oraz stanowi gest pozdrowienia ONR. Jednocześnie różni się od gestu wykonywanego przez nazistów. Wykonując ten gest członkowie stowarzyszenia wypowiadają słowa: „Czołem Wielkiej Polsce”.
"Celem stowarzyszenia jest osiągnięcie przez jego członków najwyższego poziomu wartości duchowych poprzez pracę dla Narodu, Jego wielkości i potęgi, praca dla Polski, którą członek ONR pojmuje jako pracę dla całego Narodu, obrona polskości, odrodzenie i pielęgnowanie wartości zgodnych z duchem tradycji polskiej i kultury łacińskiej."
"Szczytnymi celami stowarzyszenia było osiągnięcie przez jego członków najwyższego poziomu wartości duchowych poprzez pracę dla Narodu, Jego wielkości i potęgi, praca dla Polski, którą członek ONR pojmuje jako pracę dla całego Narodu, obrona polskości, odrodzenie i pielęgnowanie wartości zgodnych z duchem tradycji polskiej i kultury łacińskiej.
Delegacja członków ONR złożyła kwiaty pod Pomnikiem Czynu Powstańczego oddając hołd bohaterom walczącym o polskość Śląska Opolskiego. Wykonany został gest pozdrowienia nawiązujący do „rzymskiego salutu”, stanowiący pozdrowienie członków stowarzyszenia. Wypowiedziane zostały słowa: „Chwała bohaterom”, a nie słowa: „Hail Hitler”.
Przyjęcie założenia, iż oskarżeni propagowali totalitaryzm prowadziłoby do braku spójności i logiki. Z jednej strony należałoby bowiem uznać, że krzewili oni wzorce patriotyczne, a powstańców, którzy walczyli o polskość Śląska Opolskiego uznawali za bohaterów i oddawali im cześć, a z drugiej strony popierali totalitaryzm, którego odmianą był faszyzm, krzewiony przez Adolfa Hitlera.
Zdaniem Sądu oskarżeni nie propagowali totalitaryzmu, gdyż nie upowszechniali, nie szerzyli wiedzy o tym ustroju, jego zasadach, celach i sposobach realizacji. Nie zachęcali do wprowadzenia go w życie poprzez przekonywanie do niego, podkreślanie zalet i przemilczanie wad.
Nie można również przyjąć, że oskarżeni działali z zamiarem bezpośrednim wyrażenia aprobaty dla ustroju totalitarnego. Z ich wyjaśnień wynika jednoznacznie, iż uczyniony gest nie miał nic wspólnego z propagowaniem takiego ustroju państwa.
Mino, iż znacznej części społeczeństwa gest ten kojarzy się z nazizmem, którego Polska była jedną z ofiar, to nie można tracić z pola widzenia jego genezy, o której była mowa wyżej. Dowody przeprowadzone w postępowaniu wskazują, iż oskarżeni odcinali się wyraźnie od niechlubnych dziejów nazistowskich Niemiec. Czcili oni pamięć polskich bohaterów i wyrażali patriotyczne poglądy, iż Śląsk Opolski winien być zawsze polski."
"Okupacja ziem polskich przez nazistowskie Niemcy była wyjątkowo okrutna. Represje dotykały również polskich nacjonalistów, w tym również twórców i działaczy dawnej ONR. Sztandarowym przykładem jest Jan Mosdorf – jeden z sygnatariuszy deklaracji programowej ONR, który został aresztowany w lipcu 1940r. i zesłany do Obozu Auschwitz. Został on rozstrzelany 11 października 1943r. Mając na względzie historię i współczesność trudno przyjąć, że oskarżeni w jakikolwiek sposób pochwalali ustrój panujący w nazistowskich Niemczech.
Oskarżeni wykonując ten gest wypowiedzieli słowa: „Chwała bohaterom”. Niezależnie ile osób je słyszało, wskazują one, iż intencją oskarżonych było oddanie hołdu bohaterom, nie zaś bezczeszczenie ich pamięci.
Sąd dał wiarę opinii w odniesieniu do jej warstwy historycznej, wskazującej na faty, nie podzielił jednak poglądów dotyczących ich oceny i wyprowadzonych wniosków. Należy podkreślić, iż nie można przesądzić o winie i sprawstwie oskarżonych na podstawie domysłów, odczuć większości, skojarzeń. Liczą się bowiem obiektywne fakty, poparte dowodami. Oskarżonym należy udowodnić, iż swoim zachowaniem wyczerpali wszystkie znamiona składające się na opis danego czynu zabronionego. Nasuwające się wątpliwości, których nie można wyeliminować należy rozstrzygnąć na ich korzyść."
Polish nationalist do Roman Salute not Nazi Salute.
In March 2000, in Lodz, Swastikas and the slogan "Jews out!" was spraypainted on the home of Marek Edelman, who was the deputy commander in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising and the last of the leaders of the uprising still alive.
No references given that NOP members did it. Secundo, NOP or other Polish Nationalistic organziation (I don't include here Neo-Nazis) will never write anything like that because we are Nationalists and as in Roman Dmowski's (our hero) teachings we have to love our WHOLE NATION - Jews, Catholics, Black/Asian Poles etc. We are not anti-semitic or racistic because other way we will have to be against National Radical teaching what is based on Christian Theology. We strongly support Roman Catholic Church which is against racism and other bad things. NOP/ONR members never attacked Polish/Jews, Muslims, Black Poles or Asians (if yes please, give me reference but from neutral site). Our other hero called Jan Mosdorf (the father of the National Radical Movement) was a Jew who died in Auschwitz.
Read posts of Polish National Radical movement members (in Polish, I can translate) from the biggest Polish Nationalistic forum :
About Holocaust Topic on the forum and "Questions" Topic on the forum, "Why NR can't hate Jews/Black people ?!" - Posts from 40 up.
Show me where in the NOP members posts you have stated that we have to kill Jews.
Criticism about NOP - Yes, POV about NOP - No ! Please, be above the personal beliefes and just look from the NPOV site.
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 04:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- Sadly Polish nationalistic forums fail WP:RS. M0RD00R (talk) 18:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
That's it, you fucking pig. You spread your propaganda too much. You made this article your own imagination.
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 04:31, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
WP:RS
No matter how often info about Chesterton's and Thomas Aquinas' influence on this neo-nazi group, and other similar baloney gets inserted, it does not get referenced according to WP:RS. So it is and will be removed. And you will need damn good WP:RS to reference this BS - "NOP also actively acts to support freedom of speech". Generally neo-nazis are not know to be freedom of speech supporters, but what the heck, give me WP:RS for that, and I'll be pleasantly surprised. Cheers. M0RD00R (talk) 22:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
"Generally neo-nazis are not know to be freedom of speach supporters"
Suprise ! NOP can't be a neo-nazi organization because it's strongly against any form of socialism so Nazis. Also, NOP want a good of whole naation without looking at religion/politics beliefs and skin color. You think that NOP is anti-semitic ? Jan Mosdorf is a NOP's hero, guess what ? Mosdorf was a Jew who died in Auschwitz during the Holocaust time. Above that, NOP members never attacked any Jew during its 25 years of excisting and never calls for destroying any Synagouges in Poland. Look at the NOP's forum when its topic about destroyed Jewish tombs - read the reaction of members and stop spreading your hateress among normal and patriotic people. We are not Combat 18 or Blood&Honour, we are Polish patriots and we will never agree with the neo-nazi actions against anything Polish, such as Polish Jews, but you will never understand this as long as you don't live in Poland.
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 04:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- We? So you are a member of this organisation? As for the rest this is all jolly and fine, but where's reliable sources for your statements, Misplaced Pages is not run by "he said, she said" rules, but by policies such as WP:RS. P.S. Misplaced Pages and nacjonalista.pl are not reliable sources. M0RD00R (talk) 04:34, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
If the reaction of the members of organization aren't reliable source for you so what is ? Warsaw Voice ? Internet Site made by the random people ? Or the studies of the Jewish Universities which will ALWAYS present only ONE point of view on Jewish-related problems ? Please. I added your criticism to the article because it suposted to be that way, but you are still reverting to your POV version which equal to ONLY your point of view. I added also the court's decision in the cause of NOP and ONR actions which is reliable source (maybe not ?!) as seen in the Polish law and constitution. Don't turn article into propaganda again because now is neutral, and ALWAYS before ANY CHANGE according to Misplaced Pages's policy we have to DISCUSS any change. I don't wanna any more editing wars because it's wasting of time for both of us.
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 04:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- My edits are sourced according to WP:RS, yours aren't. And until they aren't they have no place in Wiki. Sorry but rules are rules. WP:RS is for a reason. M0RD00R (talk) 04:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, show me the parts of my edits without references. I gave references for everything. Btw, as I know (from Misplaced Pages's rules) we can't even say in the article that Hitler was a murderer and you write article in the form that shows NOP as neo-nazi and antisemitic which is against Misplaced Pages. Place for criticism is in criticism not in the whole article. And again, stop changing article as in your personal beliefes.
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 05:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC) --Krzyzowiec (talk) 05:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Answer is short and simple - NONE of your edits are referenced properly. Nationalist websites, wikipedia, YouTube simply aren't reliable sources per WP:RS. M0RD00R (talk) 08:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Nationalists websites ? There is a decision of Polish court only. Misplaced Pages ? There is a picture of Polish nationalists with Roman salute long before the war. YouTube ? The archival movie with Polish Falcon trainers who do Roman salute. If archival documents aren't variable source so what is ? Jewish organziations who call NOP "neo-nazi" when NOP is against Socialism ?..
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 19:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Polish court decision is reliable source if referenced according to WP:RS, publication on nationalist website isn't. You tube ≠ archival document. I'm getting bored with explaining the basics of WP:RS. M0RD00R (talk) 19:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll find for you the decision on the official court site if that's hearting you so bad. If same movie will be posted on the site of Polish Historic Museum this will be the reliable source, but when it is on YouTube it's not ? It's kinda funny... By the way, according to WP:RS, "Warsaw Voice" news aren't reliable source because the page is made by the random people who have some beliefes so they are not NPOV. The title of the article is a hoax - "Fighting Fascism", in Poland we don't have fascists we have neo-nazis, that is a first thing. Second, "Third Position neo-Nazi organization" - Third position can't be a neo-nazi because it is against left and right wing, capitalism and socislism so "The Warsaw Voice" doesn't know what they are writing about. "contains a sentence stating that "Jews will be removed from Poland, and their possessions will be confiscated," taken directly from Adolph Hitler's Mein Kampf." - No references given from the official site or documents made by NOP as a reliable source (from publishers of ideology). I wonder why "The Warsaw Voice" lie every sentence and don't give any references for their imaginary text.
Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources :
Self-published sources Main article: Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Self-published sources (online and paper)
"The Warsaw Voice" is a private, self-made news site without give any references to their informations. As long as The Warsaw Voice will not give any RELIABLE REFERENCES that NOP statement say that "we have to remove Jews from Poland" it can't be on Misplaced Pages.
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 20:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Same thing with "The Jewish Press" and their news :
"On April 14, 2007 in Krakow anti-Semitic slogans were shouted and Fascist gestures made by the participants of the NOP demonstration. Investigation made by the Public Prosecutor’s Office was discontinued on November 26, 2007 as no perpetrators were identified and the case was not classified as an offense."
I would like to see this on the official site of the Court in Poland not in the "Jewish press" site. "The Jewish press" isn't reliable source.
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 20:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- If you do not get the difference between newspaper and self-published source, frankly I can be of little help to you. The rest is empty talk wiki-wise, WP:OR etc call it what you will. For the last time I'll explain - what you think, what you know, what you think, that you know, what is your opinion - I simply do not care. WP:RS is all I care. Edits without reliable sources will be removed. End of story. The rest you can keep to your blog, diary, pub chat, it is no business of mine. M0RD00R (talk) 20:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree, that's why I post in this place. I will find the decision of the court on the official site and you will find it too. Other way both will be deleted.
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 20:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Again you made your own version of the article, criticism is needed but in the criticism area not in the WHOLE ARTICLE. NOP isn't far right organziation because it is against right wing omg, how many times I have to tell that. Titles such as "Antisemitism" and "Homophobia" is a big POV, maybe for you not for everyone else.
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 02:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Questions
I have questions :
"Narodowe Odrodzenie Polski (NOP) (National Rebirth of Poland) is a far-right Third positionist, nationalist, political party in Poland. It is a member of European National Front and a co-founder of International Third Position."
1)How NOP can be a "far-right" (whatever it is) political party when it's ideas are based on Third positionism ?!
Far-right :
"The terms far right and far left are often used to imply that someone is an extremist. The terms are used by many political commentators to discuss political groups, movements, and political parties that are difficult to classify within conventional Right-wing politics. The terms extreme right or ultra right are used by some scholars to discuss only those right-wing political groups that step outside the boundaries of traditional electoral politics. This generally includes the revolutionary right, militant racial supremacists and religious extremists, fascists, neo-fascists, Nazis, neo-Nazis and Klansmen."
Third Position :
"Third Position is the name applied to a nationalist political strand that seeks to emphasise its opposition to both communism and capitalism. The name 'Third Position' is derived from the school of thought presenting itself as being "beyond Capitalism and Communism" and "neither Left nor Right."
- -)...
2)The Stephen Roth Institute have monopoly to judge everyone who seems to be different and don't agree with everything what's Jewish-related ?!
3)"In 2001 NOP membership in Poland was estimated at 500".
I can tell you that ONLY in Warsaw NOP have more than 500 people, I don't know where from this number is...
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 06:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Removal of sourced info
removal of information about attacks on roma people, insertion of unsourced POV material (if you want to add something read WP:RS, comply with it, and go ahead) is simply not acceptable disruption. M0RD00R (talk) 14:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- A personal website called "Rommanews" can't be considered as a reliable source (read WP:RS). An official website or a national press agency will be accepted.
- Concerning your removal of 2,451 kilobytes of text and your POV insertions in the introduction (such as "harbouring antisemitic views") and in the "see also" section read WP:NPOV. Puark (talk) 15:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- It is quite a difference between Roma news agency and private personal website. And all 2,451 removed were either unsourced or referenced only by NOP website which is not reliable source for sure. M0RD00R (talk) 15:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have found no evidence of academic accreditation of this website. / The NOP website is, of course, a relevant source to show what the ideology NOP claims. Puark (talk) 15:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- It is quite a difference between Roma news agency and private personal website. And all 2,451 removed were either unsourced or referenced only by NOP website which is not reliable source for sure. M0RD00R (talk) 15:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have removed most of the unsourced items. Please do not restore them without citing. Black Kite 15:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Another gem "By American and Jewish organizations NOP is often accused of harbouring anti-Semitic views". Since when European Commission (ref 27) is Jewish or American organization?M0RD00R (talk) 15:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I've reworded that. The last paragraph might as well be titled "Anti-semitism" rather than "controversies" because that's effectively what it's about. Black Kite 17:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
More non truth facts.
Narodowe Odrodzenie Polski (NOP) (National Rebirth of Poland) is a far-right Third positionist, nationalist, and anti-Semitic political party in Poland. It is a member of European National Front and a co-founder of International Third Position.
NOP can't be "far right" because it's Thrids positionist. NOP isn't anti-semitic (show me some anti-semitic publications) or anti-semitic actions. NOP is Anti-Zionist, not Anti-Semitic.
"History"
The NOP claims to be the reincarnation of National Radical Camp, the pre-war nationalist youth organisation, which was banned in 1934.
which lists neofascists Derek Holland and Roberto Fiore among the members of its editorial board
Not true, the proof given is from the work of one Jew about "antisemitism in Poland". He openly (in his work) shows that Poland is an antisemitic country which is not true. Also, as far as I know it's against the Misplaced Pages's policy to cite someone's work as a proof. Person who wrote his own article, in this case - Jew, represents only one point of view, his pov, which is strong POV.
Among the NOP candidates were Marcin Radzewicz, former singer of the skinhead band Oiczyzna and the leader of openly neo-Nazi National Socialist Front (Front Narodowo-Socjaliczny).
1) Marcin Radziewicz never played in band "Oiczyzna". 2) What Marcin does is his private life it's his own problem, while registering people to voting no one check their personal, past life so this sentence is a POV.
In 2001 NOP membership in Poland was estimated at 500, consisting mainly of neo-Nazi skinheads, .
NOP can't consist "neo-nazi Skinehads" because organization is a Third positionist movement who strongly fights with left ideas ex. nazi. Also, NOP members are celebreting hsitory of uprisings/actions agaisnt Nazis during Nazi occupation of Poland, Polish fight againt Nazis etc.
"Views"
The NOP also protests against abortion, which it claims to be "the biggest crime of today's world". The movement is also openly homophobic.
Bein a Catholic doesn't make you homophobic. Not everyone agree with this sickness.
Anti-semitism and xenophobia
The NOP is stated to be an anti-Semitic organisation by a large number of organisations worldwide., , , , ,
No offense but opinion of American and Israeli organziations are not allowed to be a judge on everything. Everyone know about USA-Israeli realtionship so judgments made by these two countries are very POV.
Also, all situations allegedly done by NOP members are not proofed by anything on Jewish Organziations sites. For example, if I will be a Muslim in some famous organziation "against violence against Muslims in the World" I can write an article on how many of Palestinians died today in Israel even if no one died, showing that Israel is a blood-thirsty country what want to destroy all Arabs, the point of article will be just to "destroy" Israel in peoples eyes. Jewish and American Organization doesn't have license for judging people 10,000 kilometers away without being even one time in some country, without knowing it's history and relationships. That's why all of the judgments made by "Roth Institue...." etc. arte nothing more/less than strong POV and one point of view from one side of the people - religious or racial. Misplaced Pages can't be a palce for propaganda how it is now.
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 05:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
- Once again. WP:TRUTH, WP:FRINGE WP:RS etc etc, Sigh... Until you don't have reliable sources it's just another meaningless WP:IDONTLIKEIT talk. P.S. And since you claim that you are affiliated with this neo-nazi skinhead organization WP:COI would be essential read. Cheers. M0RD00R (talk) 08:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
You forgot WP:TIGERS. If Krzyzowiec turns out to be a TIGER, we'll have to cage him, this isn't what Wikipedi is for. dab (𒁳) 22:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Stubification
It there are objections as to particular phrasings, or to the reliability of individual sources, use the appropriate inline tags. The evidence presented leaves no doubt that this is essentially a far-right neo-fascist outfit with all the hallmarks of radical nationalism and anti-Semitism. How exactly we are going to document this is open to debate, but we certainly cannot just blank the article just because some editors play at WP:IDONTLIKEIT. I mean, hello? 0.6% of the vote in a country as staunchly conservative Catholic as Poland? It is obvious that this is a minor outfit of neo-Nazi losers by any other name. At 500 members, it is dubious whether this even deserves a standalone article, or whether it shoudn't rather become a paragraph in a Polish nationalism or Far right in Poland article (note how we have a well-developed Far right in Switzerland. And that's not because the topic is more urgent to Swiss politics than to Polish politics. It is time that someone sits down and collects such information with a broader perspective). Far-right fringe partylets like this one are malleable vehicles of a wider far-right "scene". It is more fruitful to discuss the scene and its various attempts to enter mainstream politics in context instead of obsessing over individual grouplets. dab (𒁳) 07:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
I've created a quick outline at Far right in Poland, googling the relevant literature. This should of course be expanded by people more familiar with the Polish milieu. --dab (𒁳) 10:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- This group is indeed marginal, even Roman Giertych of League of Polish Families, a party which is considered radical and sometimes even xenophobic, distanced himself from NOP, because it is "antisemitic and racist organization". If it is too antisemitic even for Giertych, in that case it is beyond being fringe. But being marginal does not prevent NOP from getting media attention. And that's why this article survived any AfD, I guess. There are plenty WP:RS about this organization and its activities. What this article needs is a clean-up. Antisemitism and racism section needs to be rewritten in prose (now it's rather just a list) and expanded f.e. NOP summer camps for teens, where kids were trained "How to recognize a Jew from his physical appearance" and similar gained some media coverage. M0RD00R (talk) 21:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I am not suggesting AfD, I am suggesting merging into a larger context. But I don't insist, we can also keep it separate. dab (𒁳) 21:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- My logic is - If it can surive AfD when it deserves an article, if there are enough reliable sources, for more than just a couple sentences long stub. Which is the case here. M0RD00R (talk) 22:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Propaganda
Some users treat Misplaced Pages as their own propaganda spreading tool machine such as MORDOR.
"This article or section relies largely or entirely upon a single source."
Almost 3/4 of sources give are from the Jewish point fo view - Michael Shafir, Stephen Roth Institute, Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Anti-Defamation League, The Jewish Press etc. As far as i know Citing in all cases only Jewish point of view is against Misplaced Pages's neutrality policy - http://en.wikipedia.org/NPOV. Aslo article include original research which is against Misplaced Pages's policy either - http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:No_original_research.
"This article or section may contain inappropriate or misinterpreted citations that do not verify the text."
Many of the give references doesn't speak about the NOP as a nazi/faschi/antisemitic or other hoax statments organziation.
"The neutrality of this article is disputed."
In give sources all sources are from the beginning "against" the NOP which out trying to find out "the truth", such statments as "antisemitic, neo nazi, homophobic" are agaisnt Misplaced Pages's neutrality policy (look "Don't call Hitler an evil" in NPOV section). Criticism can be included but must be from NPOV sites not Jewish related nor from the members or supporters of the organization.
--Krzyzowiec (talk) 22:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Finding references problematic? Experts on this question are this way Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard.M0RD00R (talk) 23:08, 22 July 2008 (UTC)