| Revision as of 06:04, 29 July 2008 editRandomran (talk | contribs)9,686 edits →Rename of this article?: reply← Previous edit | Revision as of 03:11, 30 July 2008 edit undoDatumizer (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers42,788 edits →Rename of this article?Next edit → | ||
| Line 66: | Line 66: | ||
| :::::::::::::I don't see how a "vast majority" or "numerous" sources talk about open worlds outside the context of a class of games, bordering on a genre. Could you provide a few more links? You've provided only two so far that I felt unambiguous about (, ). ] (]) 05:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC) | :::::::::::::I don't see how a "vast majority" or "numerous" sources talk about open worlds outside the context of a class of games, bordering on a genre. Could you provide a few more links? You've provided only two so far that I felt unambiguous about (, ). ] (]) 05:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::::::::: Re-read the articles I quoted I suppose. There's plenty of statements "open worlds" aside from "open world games". I'm not sure how to alleviate your ambiguous feelings. For every statement about an open world game, there's probably a statement about an open world. Why exclude or re-interpret these? There's always more sources out there. Like . Or these. , , , . Half of those mention open worlds more often than they mention open world games, and some don't mention open world games at all. None mention a genre. One even talks about a "first person shooter in an open world setting". I bet you'll find lots of articles that talk about open worlds in other genres, like open world RPGs too. ] (]) 06:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC) | :::::::::::::: Re-read the articles I quoted I suppose. There's plenty of statements "open worlds" aside from "open world games". I'm not sure how to alleviate your ambiguous feelings. For every statement about an open world game, there's probably a statement about an open world. Why exclude or re-interpret these? There's always more sources out there. Like . Or these. , , , . Half of those mention open worlds more often than they mention open world games, and some don't mention open world games at all. None mention a genre. One even talks about a "first person shooter in an open world setting". I bet you'll find lots of articles that talk about open worlds in other genres, like open world RPGs too. ] (]) 06:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::::::::::To be absolutely clear, you said the vast majority and numerous ''sources'' talk about open worlds without mentioning a genre—not ''statements''. Please, if your statements can't be interpreted literally, try to refrain from interacting with Wikipedians. ] (]) 03:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ==Is game action adventure?== | ==Is game action adventure?== | ||
Revision as of 03:11, 30 July 2008
What is this page about?
There's a lot of useful information here, and by all means it should be kept and improved. But the subject of this article is redundant with a lot of other articles. If this article is about any game where there are soft objectives, and players can wander around without advancing the plot, then that's the exact same subject as Linearity (video games). Or is this article about GTA Clones specifically? If so, we should split out the information from GTA_Clone#Similar_games and combine it with this article. I think that would be a really useful article to have, since it's clear there's a distinct genre emerging here. But this article is redundant with a lot of other articles on wikipedia, and we have to think about how to organize this information. Randomran (talk) 16:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- After GTA3, gamers and game critics alike began using the term "free roaming" and then eventually "open world" to describe the genre that was emerging, and it seemed that most wiki articles of various games just linked "free roaming" to "sandbox" (which later became "linearity"), but neither of those terms really described this new genre that I believe deserves its own article. Wangry (talk) 16:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- I think you're right. There's definitely a genre around GTA, Saints Row, True Crime, Crackdown ... Part of what makes writing about it difficult is that nobody uses a consistent name for this genre. Sometimes it's "open world", but I've also heard "sandbox", "crime" or even just "GTA clone". To make matters worse, there are other games like Sim City that are sometimes called "sandbox games" because they're non-linear. Hence why the whole thing got merged together in the article about linearity. I think we should definitely write an article about the GTA Clone genre, and I want to help. But what should we call it, so that it doesn't just become a dumping ground for information on any non-linear game? Randomran (talk) 18:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- I've seen "open world" used more often these days, especially as the concept has gone beyond crime/action games like GTA. Plus, "GTA clone" always seemed like a GTA fanboy term. Anything with an open world environment is suddenly a GTA clone, despite the open world environment concept having already been developed before GTA in other games such as Midtown Madness/Midnight Club, Driver, etc. See this article at GamesRadar for more background and examples. Wangry (talk) 16:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- If you think open world is the most commonly used name for this genre, then I'm okay with keeping that as the article name. The main two things I'm concerned about is (1) that we distinguish this from all games with open-level design (like Zelda or Freelancer (video game)), perhaps even including a Template:Dablink at the top, and (2) we try to include alternate names for the genre, depending on what we can find in reliable sources. I've seen them called crime games, free-roaming game (or free-roaming action-adventure) ... and yes grand theft auto clone, although I agree with you that this is kind of a fan-boyish name and we should make sure that this is not a technical term that most people agree upon. Does that make sense? Randomran (talk) 20:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, and I almost forgot: sandbox game. Randomran (talk) 20:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with your points. I've also noticed that a bot has added a link to the Japanese Misplaced Pages's "open world" article, so that might mean we're on the right track. Wangry (talk) 22:13, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- I think that's a good sign too. I tried to incorporate some of what we talked about, with the disambiguation link and the references to other names. I also moved it to "open world game", since that makes this similar to "stealth game", "Fighting game", and other video game genres. Feel free to adjust any of the wording. I'm going to try to find some research on the genre. There's probably a lot of it out there, but it's scattered across the many names that this genre is known by. Randomran (talk) 22:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- You might want to take a look at an old revision of Sandbox (video game), which Randomran deleted. It has some useful information. SharkD (talk) 08:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Most of that has been merged into nonlinear gameplay. There was no AFD. Randomran (talk) 15:27, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Rename of this article?
There is definitely a genre that has emerged around the GTA series. However, using terms such as sandbox game or open world game have led to confusion in the past, with people adding games that could not have had more than a passing influence on GTA or its "clones". All the same, I've had trouble finding a consistent name for the GTA Clone genre that hasn't already been applied to non-GTA-like games. I know the "GTA clone" name is somewhat fanboyish and derogatory towards other games in the genre (especially the Driver series, which came before it). But I'm not sure there's any other name that has the same clarity about what kind of game we're talking about here. Thoughts? Randomran (talk) 06:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why you seem so concerned over the "open world" term. It is clearly becoming the term of choice: , , , ,
- I'm also not really satisfied with saying that these games equal action adventure when they've been applied to other genres as well, especially racing games. Wangry (talk) 07:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- We should also consider just documenting the naming dilemma itself that has existed for a while rather than rename this article to something entirely removed from what most people refer to these types of games. Wangry (talk) 07:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. "Open world" and "sandbox" are pretty common terms used to describe these types of games. I like "open world" better than "sandbox". SharkD (talk) 07:27, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- My concern is one of scope. I'm concerned that this article is going to become a dumping ground for virtually any game with nonlinear gameplay, since many non GTA-style games offer an open level-design concept. I guess I'm returning to the original question: what's the scope of this article? Is it an article for any game with open-ended gameplay, or are we talking about a specific game genre that is defined by more than those conventions? (e.g.: freedom to jump in vehicles, shoot a lot of people, take on different missions and side-quests...) Randomran (talk) 07:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- It's about "open world" games. Just that. These four articles should help: , , , SharkD (talk) 08:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Here's the problem. Those articles are just as much about nonlinear gameplay in general, and mention the linear/nonlinear distinction repeatedly. In fact:
- ... "we also have the structure of the game; non-linear and open-ended... Together these are the two pillars that hold up the modern free-roaming action-adventure genre".
- the article defines an open world game as a nonlinear game.
- "no one is going to deny that linear games such as Half-Life 2 and Call of Duty 4 are any less than superb despite their on-rails nature, but we're going to celebrate open-world gaming on PC"
- the article defines an open world game as anything that isn't a linear game. (which is an exact copy of the next article)
- ... "we also have the structure of the game; non-linear and open-ended... Together these are the two pillars that hold up the modern free-roaming action-adventure genre".
- So open world games are merely nonlinear games. And I can guarantee you that you can't find a game that's called "open world" that isn't also described as nonlinear. I thought this article was supposed to be about something more specific than that. If it isn't, then we already have an article about nonlinear gameplay in general and a merge makes perfect sense. Randomran (talk) 11:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- City-building games are also nonlinear, and yet no one would suggest merging that into nonlinear gameplay. You're right that this article is supposed to be about a more specific form of nonlinear gameplay: the open world concept that has also been termed free-roaming, etc. There is no need to merge this article to prevent something that hasn't happened yet (and probably will not happen as we have not created any lists of games, only examples within the article text). Wangry (talk) 13:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I suspect someone will eventually add something about simulation games being nonlinear and add it at nonlinear gameplay, let alone here. But you're right that it hasn't happened yet, and this would make it somewhat distinct from the nonlinear gameplay article.
Would you support a rename to just "Open world", since this is less a game type and more a game element that is used in a variety of games (racing games like crazy taxi, RPGs like Elder Scrolls, action-adventures like Metroid and Zelda, and GTA-clones...)? Randomran (talk) 14:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)- Yes, as that is what I originally named it as you might recall...haha. Wangry (talk) 14:12, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, that was my mistake since I misunderstood the scope of the article you created. Thanks for being so understanding. Anyway, I completed the rename/move, as you might have noticed. Randomran (talk) 14:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, as that is what I originally named it as you might recall...haha. Wangry (talk) 14:12, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I suspect someone will eventually add something about simulation games being nonlinear and add it at nonlinear gameplay, let alone here. But you're right that it hasn't happened yet, and this would make it somewhat distinct from the nonlinear gameplay article.
- I think the points you raise are an example of instruction creep. You're trying to fix a problem that hasn't occured yet. Also, I prefer the previous orientation of the article on a genre. The sources are pretty consistent in their usage of the term "open world game". Only the Gamasutra article is more general in its scope. SharkD (talk) 19:46, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I was merely trying to understand the scope of this article. Wangry has already cleared this up. Randomran (talk) 20:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- If you would rename the page back to "open world game", or at least reinstate the introductory paragraph, it would be much appreciated. SharkD (talk) 22:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'd rather not. The original title had a clearer scope, and I boldly did the first rename based on a misunderstanding about GTA Clones. As for all the other stuff about alternative names, I've started re-adding the information with better references. The old references focused more on synonyms for GTA Clones than synonyms for "open world". Randomran (talk) 22:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm interested in hearing what Wangry has to say. I liked the article's previous focus on the games as belonging to a genre, and the intro paragraph was particularly good. SharkD (talk) 02:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Whether open world is just a design concept or its own genre is probably a matter of semantics. The main argument for the current article title is that the open world concept is not unique to GTA-style "action-adventure" games as it was already being explored in other genres such as racing (Midnight Club/Midtown Madness) and various adventure games where players could choose to ignore the main story destinations and visit various other stops on the game map. Thus, it could be considered more of a design concept like a level, and indeed, an open world could just be considered a specific kind of level design.
- If you would rename the page back to "open world game", or at least reinstate the introductory paragraph, it would be much appreciated. SharkD (talk) 22:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I was merely trying to understand the scope of this article. Wangry has already cleared this up. Randomran (talk) 20:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- City-building games are also nonlinear, and yet no one would suggest merging that into nonlinear gameplay. You're right that this article is supposed to be about a more specific form of nonlinear gameplay: the open world concept that has also been termed free-roaming, etc. There is no need to merge this article to prevent something that hasn't happened yet (and probably will not happen as we have not created any lists of games, only examples within the article text). Wangry (talk) 13:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Here's the problem. Those articles are just as much about nonlinear gameplay in general, and mention the linear/nonlinear distinction repeatedly. In fact:
- It's about "open world" games. Just that. These four articles should help: , , , SharkD (talk) 08:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- My concern is one of scope. I'm concerned that this article is going to become a dumping ground for virtually any game with nonlinear gameplay, since many non GTA-style games offer an open level-design concept. I guess I'm returning to the original question: what's the scope of this article? Is it an article for any game with open-ended gameplay, or are we talking about a specific game genre that is defined by more than those conventions? (e.g.: freedom to jump in vehicles, shoot a lot of people, take on different missions and side-quests...) Randomran (talk) 07:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- On the other hand, as the term open world has become more accepted now it seems, we're likely to see more games called foremost as "open world games" in the media, and so one could argue that just as some strategy games can be both turn-based and 4X, a game can belong both to one specific genre such as third-person shooter as well as this open world genre. However, most genre names such as city-building game, survival horror, and shoot 'em up unite various games under their common game objective. Open world games don't always have that same unity. Most people would not put GTA under the same game shelf section as the open world racer Test Drive Unlimited, and I do remember the old GTA clone page where people would list any game with an open world as a GTA clone, which was pretty stupid. If open world is its own genre, it is a very loose genre.
- Any additional thoughts either way? I don't see why either title should affect the introductory paragraph. It seems that the intro has not changed drastically, but please feel free to edit back what may have been removed. Personally, Wangry (talk) 05:01, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Like I said before, when I've heard open world described as a genre, it's been to describe GTA Clones. That's what the focus was when I temporarily did the mistaken rename. Otherwise, a great deal of articles about open worlds in games don't refer to "open world games", let alone explicitly define a genre. Either way, I've re-added everything except the GTA Clone stuff (names "free roaming action adventure", "GTA clone", and "crime game" no longer apply to this article because their focus is too narrow). I suppose we could mention the link in terminology, but more to say Grand Theft Auto and similar games make use of the open world concept. Randomran (talk) 10:02, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Could you provide some examples of articles that don't refer to open world games as a particluar class of games? Just looking at the reference titles seems to point otherwise. "The roots of open-world games", "Pandemic Working On New 'Open World / Sandbox' IP", "The complete history of open-world games", "Game Design Essentials: 20 Open World Games", "Assassin's Creed And The Future Of Sandbox Games", "Born Free: the History of the Openworld Game". SharkD (talk) 16:00, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- I think there's good reason to consider that a useful shorthand for games with open worlds. It's treated as a kind of level design, and some games have both linear and open world levels. Many articles talk about open worlds themselves, including articles that talk about "open world games". The same way that an article can talk about a game's sandbox without calling it a sandbox game. And those are just the references that exist now. Treating this as a class of games would put us in a strange situation of either putting information about open worlds in general in a different article, or including it in this article with all kinds of qualifiers. As for information about a class of games, there is still plenty of room for that in the history section: games that use open worlds, let alone "open world games". Randomran (talk) 19:21, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- You bring up some interesting points. You also bring up some interesting sources. But even of the links you provided, two of them (in this case 'exploration game' is used as a euphamistically or synonymously) make a point of calling them a genre, and the latter of the two doesn't focus any significantly more on the game concept than upon the genre. SharkD (talk) 20:21, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- In a broader sense, there are games of multiple genres that make use of open worlds, and open worlds are discussed as a concept within many games. It's probably safer to have this article focus broadly on open worlds rather than confine its focus to articles that only talk about open world games. Especially since there is some research out there that tries to assert that Open World Game = GTA Clone, and that kind of research could throw this article off track and incidentally narrow its focus. We get a more comprehensive article when it's about open worlds, period. Randomran (talk) 05:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- You bring up some interesting points. You also bring up some interesting sources. But even of the links you provided, two of them (in this case 'exploration game' is used as a euphamistically or synonymously) make a point of calling them a genre, and the latter of the two doesn't focus any significantly more on the game concept than upon the genre. SharkD (talk) 20:21, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- I think there's good reason to consider that a useful shorthand for games with open worlds. It's treated as a kind of level design, and some games have both linear and open world levels. Many articles talk about open worlds themselves, including articles that talk about "open world games". The same way that an article can talk about a game's sandbox without calling it a sandbox game. And those are just the references that exist now. Treating this as a class of games would put us in a strange situation of either putting information about open worlds in general in a different article, or including it in this article with all kinds of qualifiers. As for information about a class of games, there is still plenty of room for that in the history section: games that use open worlds, let alone "open world games". Randomran (talk) 19:21, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Could you provide some examples of articles that don't refer to open world games as a particluar class of games? Just looking at the reference titles seems to point otherwise. "The roots of open-world games", "Pandemic Working On New 'Open World / Sandbox' IP", "The complete history of open-world games", "Game Design Essentials: 20 Open World Games", "Assassin's Creed And The Future Of Sandbox Games", "Born Free: the History of the Openworld Game". SharkD (talk) 16:00, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that the open world concept has been applied to games other than "action adventure". It has been applied to racing games, RPGs, MMOs and non-games like Second Life, etc. However, I have to disagree when you say open world games aren't united by a common objective. Exploring a game world freely, interacting with its denizens without restriction, and generally living a virtual life as one sees fit are its common objectives. It's what attracts gamers to these types of games instead of playing other types of games. You have to take into account what the term "open world" implies, not just what the word means at the face of it. It's no less a reflection of a player's principal activities than "explore", "expand", "exterminate" and "exploit" are of players playing 4X games. It's not as simplistic as calling a game "turn-based" or "first person". The fact that the term "open world" is used primarily to describe a subset, the "GTA clones", is unfortunate and due to the overwhelming popularity of the series, but no less accurate when describing the core concepts of all these games. And, this will go away over time as more games adopt the open world concept due to GTA's popularity. I think there's enough material to justify an article dealing primarily with the genre. I believe most sources approach the topic in this manner, and that it might be better for the article to reflect these sources rather than how we "feel" the topic should be handled. SharkD (talk) 04:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- Like I said before, when I've heard open world described as a genre, it's been to describe GTA Clones. That's what the focus was when I temporarily did the mistaken rename. Otherwise, a great deal of articles about open worlds in games don't refer to "open world games", let alone explicitly define a genre. Either way, I've re-added everything except the GTA Clone stuff (names "free roaming action adventure", "GTA clone", and "crime game" no longer apply to this article because their focus is too narrow). I suppose we could mention the link in terminology, but more to say Grand Theft Auto and similar games make use of the open world concept. Randomran (talk) 10:02, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- The vast majority of sources that don't mention a genre indicate otherwise. (And the few that confound "open world game" with "GTA Clone" don't really show anything either). I don't think we should use our own personal feelings that this somehow constitutes a genre to override, exclude, or re-interpret the numerous sources that talk about "open worlds" without talking about a genre. Especially those that talk about open worlds as a level design, and can talk about an open world without saying "open world game". Again, "open world game" is kind of like "multiplayer game": it affects the gameplay of a variety of genres, but many genres include both multiplayer and single player games, just as many genres are starting to include open world and linear games. Randomran (talk) 05:06, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see how a "vast majority" or "numerous" sources talk about open worlds outside the context of a class of games, bordering on a genre. Could you provide a few more links? You've provided only two so far that I felt unambiguous about (, ). SharkD (talk) 05:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- Re-read the articles I quoted I suppose. There's plenty of statements "open worlds" aside from "open world games". I'm not sure how to alleviate your ambiguous feelings. For every statement about an open world game, there's probably a statement about an open world. Why exclude or re-interpret these? There's always more sources out there. Like this. Or these. , , , . Half of those mention open worlds more often than they mention open world games, and some don't mention open world games at all. None mention a genre. One even talks about a "first person shooter in an open world setting". I bet you'll find lots of articles that talk about open worlds in other genres, like open world RPGs too. Randomran (talk) 06:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- To be absolutely clear, you said the vast majority and numerous sources talk about open worlds without mentioning a genre—not statements. Please, if your statements can't be interpreted literally, try to refrain from interacting with Wikipedians. SharkD (talk) 03:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- Re-read the articles I quoted I suppose. There's plenty of statements "open worlds" aside from "open world games". I'm not sure how to alleviate your ambiguous feelings. For every statement about an open world game, there's probably a statement about an open world. Why exclude or re-interpret these? There's always more sources out there. Like this. Or these. , , , . Half of those mention open worlds more often than they mention open world games, and some don't mention open world games at all. None mention a genre. One even talks about a "first person shooter in an open world setting". I bet you'll find lots of articles that talk about open worlds in other genres, like open world RPGs too. Randomran (talk) 06:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see how a "vast majority" or "numerous" sources talk about open worlds outside the context of a class of games, bordering on a genre. Could you provide a few more links? You've provided only two so far that I felt unambiguous about (, ). SharkD (talk) 05:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- The vast majority of sources that don't mention a genre indicate otherwise. (And the few that confound "open world game" with "GTA Clone" don't really show anything either). I don't think we should use our own personal feelings that this somehow constitutes a genre to override, exclude, or re-interpret the numerous sources that talk about "open worlds" without talking about a genre. Especially those that talk about open worlds as a level design, and can talk about an open world without saying "open world game". Again, "open world game" is kind of like "multiplayer game": it affects the gameplay of a variety of genres, but many genres include both multiplayer and single player games, just as many genres are starting to include open world and linear games. Randomran (talk) 05:06, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Is game action adventure?
I'm tired of this bickering over which articles call these games "action adventure". The articles either call individual games action adventure, or use the terms together to describe a new type of game. SharkD (talk) 07:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I realize the problem might be that we're talking about two different things. GTA-style games are frequently called action adventure games, and are commonly called "free roaming action-adventures". But it's possible that this article is a victim of information creep for any game with open world level-design, which may be flight simulators, RPGs, or what have you. Randomran (talk) 07:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I think I understand the scope of this article now. It's not just GTA clones, but it's not any nonlinear sandbox like Sim City or Civilization either. We'll see how the article develops, but either way it's clear that this is more than just action-adventure games. Randomran (talk) 14:35, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Before GTA3
As the focus of this article becomes clearer, I have realized that there's far too much emphasis on GTA3 as a pioneer of the open world concept. No doubt, there are lots of references out there that say GTA 3 pioneered a new genre of game. But it didn't pioneer open world gameplay in general, since far too many references talk about earlier game with an open world concept. In the near future, we should elaborate on the history section before GTA 3. Not just naming games, but explaining what they introduced to open world gameplay. It might even be that Elite is considered the first "true" open world game, and we can use that as a plot point to drive towards as we talk about the innovations of earlier games. See here, just as an example. Randomran (talk) 22:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Sources
I found some more sources for you to use: , , , , , . SharkD (talk) 02:06, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Categories: