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This project is wearing on me

Could someone take a look at this and close it? We have an editor who hadn't even participated in the discussion and debate that is reverting our consensus-based resolution. I'm really weary of all this stuff. S. Dean Jameson 01:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not convinced it should be closed. Enigma 01:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh my god, I'm done. LOOK AT THE FLIPPING DISCUSSION!!! There's no real dissent there. S. Dean Jameson 01:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Stay calm. One RfD is not a big deal. The discussion started recently. Recommend you withdraw it instead of closing it. As you nominated it in the first place, you can simply withdraw your request. Let me know if you would like for me to do it for you. Enigma 01:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Please do. That guy has stomped into the discussion and raised the OMGDRAHMA quotient with his reversions. I'm officially withdrawing it. And redirecting the page to the article space the rest of us (save that one guy who reopened it) agreed it should go. S. Dean Jameson 01:16, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of drama... Tan ǀ 39 01:27, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Would someone just withdraw it already? I'm not sure how to do it, and that would end that guy's crusade to keep it open against consensus. S. Dean Jameson 01:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done Enigma 01:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I've removed the tag from the redirect, and the drama should be over now. Unless he reverts you now, that is... S. Dean Jameson 01:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

When I closed it, I posted on his talk page. It should put an end to this. Sorry about the delay. I was editing something else and I didn't immediately notice your acceptance of my offer to close it. In the future, don't let something minor like an RfD get under your skin. I would suggest dumping the responsibility on someone else (feel free to try me in the future) and moving on to another area, if it bothers you that much. Happy editing! Enigma 01:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• This is the first time I've really experienced something like this, where I worked with a group for consensus, reached a "best interests of the project" solution, and someone went to battle with me over it. Does this happen a lot? S. Dean Jameson 01:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• I haven't seen it, myself. Unusual situation there. Enigma 01:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• Since the argument primarily centered on User:Eusebeus's !vote, I think the best course of action would have been to ask his opinion on your new proposal and whether he would be amenable to the retarget. A lot of heat could have been avoided. Arguing over someone else's opinion is fruitless when you can get it straight from the horse's mouth. Regards, Enigma 02:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• I thought I left a note at all three of the other editors that had participated (Ned Scott came by later) to ask about it. Perhaps I missed his talkpage S. Dean Jameson 02:16, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• Ah yes, I see the note now. I would have worded it differently, considering that the whole reason closure was being resisting was his !vote, but it's water under the bridge. We can all learn from this. Enigma 02:18, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• Ugh, reopened again, this time by Rossami. I'm convinced it should be closed, but I'm not going to edit war over it. Enigma 05:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• I commented there. Let it run out, everyone (I presume) has had a full night's sleep now, the community will get it right. Keeper ǀ 76 15:28, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
• This is pretty ludicrous. Everyone is commenting that the new redirect is fine. What's the point of continuing it, really? Good grief! S. Dean Jameson 23:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• Even Pmedema: "I would say that if there is two more editors that agrees with the new redirect, it can be closed as a WP:SNOW." We have those two editors. I think it should be closed. Enigma 23:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• Agreed. Would you mind finding someone uninvolved that would take a look and close it? (TPSers, you out there?) S. Dean Jameson 00:06, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

• You know, it didn't used to be hard to find people here. :) Enigma 01:13, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's because there are people showing up to oppose RfAs per "too many posts at Keeper's talkpage" ... ;) S. Dean Jameson 22:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• Closed again. :) Enigma 22:11, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

And closed correctly this time. SDJ, you made very good points there, came up with a workable solution (I believe mostly with Skomorokh), but need to realize that there are processes (and the inevitable process wonkery) that often precludes common sense, right or wrong. RfD is full of it, and full of them. Always remember that "today's newspaper is tomorrow's litterbox liner". Nothing was at the "emergency level" here. If someone "undoes" a close of yours, WRITING IN ALLCAPS rarely helps move things along. Just let them undo, apologize even if you disagree, and work within the process. If Misplaced Pages is stressing you out, perhaps you need to remember that the pay here sucks, and there is absolutely nothing here worth getting stressed about. Nothing. That was definitely one of those "walk away" situations for everyone involved. It always seems to work out how it's supposed to in the end, we're smart people. It would've worked out the same way even without you getting stressed. Cheers, Keeper ǀ 76 14:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Any plans?

Ohai Keeper. I was wondering if you had any plans for an editor review on me soon. But it's no rush really. By the way, it seems Ryan Postlethwaite beat you to a review. :P He promised to review me because he saw the thread on your talk page from last time. Thanks, RyRy (talk) 18:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I second the above. but i have lots of time. Shapiros10 _{My work} 18:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I seem to recall this discussion in which Keeper said, "Gentlemen, I'm likely not going to have time for this this week after all, and apologies for that RyRy, because I told you to remind me. I'll be on wiki most likely, but the energy needed to do a proper ER is just not appealing to me at the moment. Don't take it the wrong way. You're both great, you're both doing good things, and you both need to stop spamming me to review you, it's offputting." ::Might be worth taking into account. When I get hounded to review someone (not you, RyRy, to my knowledge you've never asked me to) it often does not reflect favorably in my review because it speaks to the user's patience, an important quality in lots of things in life, including adminship. Oh and Keeper? I *hate* the ESPN announcers. Hate hate hate. "Feenway Park" really? Joe Buck, you've killed the pleasure from enough games, you don't know the name of the Stadium? TravellingCari 02:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I watched the first four innings. On the graphic of the Yankees layout at the beginning of the game, the pitcher was "Pavano". Great job as always, ESPN. Enigma 02:57, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Pavano, Ponson. Hey, they both start with "P", right? ESPN is pathetic, they make Fox look good. That said, I'll take 2/3 and put the game on mute. TravellingCari 03:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I figure ESPN was going by the theory that all that matters is the first letter. It was particularly funny because... Pavano? You mean the guy that threw like 112 innings in four seasons for the Yankees, while chewing up huge amounts of salary? Why is that name even in the rotation? Erase the name from baseball except in the history of biggest wastes of money ever. Anyway, I don't particularly like either team, but tonight's onslaught, I expected. Ponson simply isn't any good (Pavano would've been a better choice, heh), and the Red Sox have always owned him. Now we wait and see if the Washburn deal gets done. Enigma 03:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Well said Travellingcari. Especially the part about the ESPN announcers. And the stuff about editor reviews....Keeper ǀ 76 14:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Shockingly, Pavano is on his way back. Yeah, I'll believe it when I see it too. Ponson is hit or miss, he's done OK since Yankees got him for essentially nothing. Sox were due. They fiddled the rotation tonight, I'm hoping to see!Andy Thursday, I like him but I want to see someone else. TravellingCari 00:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Attention stalkers (especially admins)

When you speedily delete a page that has NOT been tagged, what templates do you use to notify the creator of the page? I'd like to alert them that I just deleted their work per this bit I found on Giggy's page but I haven't found the right templates for it.  Frank  |  talk  15:47, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

If I delete something without a tag or prior warning, I try my best to notify the user with real words instead of a template (and I don't think there is one anyway, nothing I've been able to find). Ironically, when someone tags something for speedy, they notify the author, but it's usually deleted before they see there talkpage anyway, we have loads of CSD clearing admins right now, rarely a backlog of more than 10-20 articles and images. So I wouldn't worry too much about the template, just a note to the author, with an offer to help them if they feel it was an incorrect deletion for whatever reason. For deletions that I do as a result of someone else's tag, I have also linked authors to my subpage that explains why, and how to get it back. Feel free to create your own subpage if you want, just be sure to give its author much deserved credit. The very first line of my userpage/usertalk is a link that says "Did I delete your page? Click here!" As a result, I get very few repetitive inquiries from "newbie authors" because of that well-worded (not my words) subpage. Hope this all helps! Keeper ǀ 76 14:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

AN/I said this wasn't important enough....

...but I'm still disturbed by it so I'm bringing it to AN/K. There's this user JohnLeoWalsh. His user page is just the weirdest frickin' thing. It's not horrible or anything, but I don't think it's got any WP value at all..and his whole edit history--as well as the edit history of his logged-out IP 74.32.51.238--consists of one of two things: either a)edits to this weird-ass user page, or b)addition of deliberate and subtle errors to articles about TV shows/networks. I found a single legit edit, under another IP 74.32.6.70--the Jay Jay the Jet Plane edits. But that's it, and most of the rest of what he spends his time on here is this "God's People/Pets" thing. He doesn't seem to answer questions on his talkpage, either.

I know I'm being weird, here, but...seriously. Something about this smells really odd to me. Thanks!!Gladys J Cortez 16:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

This freaks me out. Shapiros10 _{My work} 16:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

This is odd, 70% of the logged in users' edits are to userspace. If he keeps on editing without replying to messages on his talkpage, block as having no use to Misplaced Pages whatsoever...? Unless someone can find some incredibly impressive article contributions ;) Alex Muller 18:18, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary--all but one of the other edits I've found among this user and IP's (probably him logged out) have been vandalism. Gladys J Cortez 20:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, this is just... odd. I agree that this wasn't really a matter for AN/I as he doesn't seem to have done anything blatantly wrong, it's just extremely weird. ~ mazca 18:41, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

• WP:NOTWEBHOST seems to apply here. –xeno (talk) 19:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
• This seems kind of ... well ... creepy to me. Is this user communicative at all about what the hell he's trying to accomplish with that userpage? S. Dean Jameson 19:15, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

possibly MfD is the place to discuss it. DGG (talk) 22:34, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

• eh, with all the personal information (birth dates) disclosed, it should be speedied under some applicable criteria and oversighted. –xeno (talk) 22:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Sent this page to MfD Fritzpoll (talk) 22:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Thankfully deleted by Nichalp. He did say that it doesn't qualify for oversight because there's no personally identifiable information present. Enigma 09:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

That I don't get at all. If those are real people, there were names and DoBs. S. Dean Jameson 13:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

POV in Indian articles

Hi there is an IP address probably from India which is wreaking havoc with some of the Bollywood articles. See his contributions. He persistently keeps adding POV to an article or glorifying an actor or film further than they or it actually is. It is a major nuisance for the editors on here who work on Indian cinema articles to have to keep reverting him day in day out just to maintain some sense of article neutrality. Could you please warn him and try to make him aware of wikipedias neutrality and why his edits which are intent on putting POV or glorifying the subject of the article unnecesarily may be construed as agains tpolicy and therfore vandalism. Its doing my nut it keeoing track of him. User:Shshshsh (Shahid) raise my awarenss of it initially and other editors such as totalfilmi99 have to keep reverting him e.g here. Should he be blocked do you think? ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ 09:11, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a look today Blofeld. Sorry for the slow response (Why aren't the TPS-ers taking the hard ones? Hmmm..., Keeper ǀ 76 14:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Didn't go fast enough, oops! Tan blocked after AN post by Baldy. Keeper ǀ 76 17:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Table of reliable sources for the names of the bits of the United Kingdom

Hi there, a while back, you did excellent work in carrying out some informal mediation on Talk:Wales about how to name the various bits of the United Kingdon. Part of your solution relied on a table of reliable sources that had been constructed on my initiative and placed in Subdivisions of the United Kingdom. Since then, there has been numerous changes made to the table and its place, so that now its present version lies in Countries of the United Kingdom. There is now a suggestion that it be removed entirely! Since your solution to the Wales problem relied on the presence of the table, I wonder if you could consider the issue of removal of the table? You can see the discussion on Talk:Countries of the United Kingdom#Poll on merge. Thanks.  DDStretch  (talk) 14:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi DDStretch, I'll get to this today. Should be online most of the day! Hope everyone had a nice weekend...AN/K sure seems busy...:-) Keeper ǀ 76 14:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Funnies

Remember ? My quote? You called it quote of the day. Will you add it to your funnies. Shapiros10 _{My work} 19:13, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Keeper, you there? Shapiros10 _{My work} 14:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

imo, that joke needs too much context to be included on a funny page like that. –xeno (talk) 14:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

no, just put Shapiroa10, talking about a children's TV show. Shapiros10 _{My work} 14:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey Shap, I add things to my funnies page when the mood strikes me. You'll notice that virtually everything added there by me are added within hours (if not minutes) of when they actually occur. You're quote was funny, in an ironic way, and truly made me LOL when I read it, enough so to actually respond to it telling you it was funny. But I didn't add it to the funnies page, didn't occur to me. I think probably Xeno is right, too much context. Not to worry though, it's still in my archives where you found it. Cheers, Keeper ǀ 76 14:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Eh, shoulda known it wasn't funny. Shapiros10 _{My work} 14:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh stop. I'm trying to read some article talk pages to solve content disputes and the orange message bar keeps popping up for this. This thread isn't funny, the other one was. Please let it go, Sam. Keeper ǀ 76 14:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

RFA thankspam

Thanks for your effective co-nom in my RFA. I must say, while I was pretty sure you would support me, I was not expecting such a, um, vehement support. I humbly thank you, and I hope that it is possible for me to live up to such a tremendous statement.

J.delanoy_adds 20:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Well earned! As you had approximately 3.5 times the amount of support that I did in my RfA, I fully expect you to be 3.5 times more efficient, more prolific, and more smarter than me. The last one shouldn't be too hard :-) Keeper ǀ 76 14:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Indian IP

Hi yes I've been trying to get hold of people for numerous reasons but many people seme to be away. Yes he has just been blocked. Hope you had a good break. I also needed your help with moving some pages for the centrla american countries but thats also been sorted now. Sometimes I could really use the tools!! ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ 17:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I've offered to nominate. I'm no longer doing nominations, but I would gladly support your bid if you ever decide to go for it. Keeper ǀ 76 17:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh actually there was something else. See Category:Cities, towns and villages in Thailand. There are many articles which are unnecessily ending in (town) or city. COuld you move them back to the plain names without the ending. The provincial name ends in Province anyway so naming something ... town is incorrect. E.g Chanthaburi town should be moved back to Chanthaburi which is in Chanthaburi Province, Could you help? Evidence of this is buri or puri Chanthaburi means town so that article at present is town town. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ 17:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I've done three: Chanthaburi town, Lamphun town, and Roi Et town. Click on those, see if they're going the right way now, I'll continue with your greenlight that they are now in the proper places. Has anyone warned the user that is improperly moving these? Keeper ǀ 76 18:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes thats perfect thanks. I don't know who moved them but the suffix was unnecessary. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ 18:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Great, I'll keep going, obvious need for cleanup here...Keeper ǀ 76 18:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks. Yes I have no idea why he thought it was necessary. Hat notes can disinguish the difference anyway. I've somehow managed to notch up around 1000 edits adding templates I created and categories to all the municipalities in El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras. Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama are next. When I've finished and done Mexico we should have every municipalitiy in central america undercontrol and order and in the position to expand some of these stubs which have been lying around since 2004. I;m leanring spanish so it is also a learning process. Yesterday I started University of El Salvador and expanded Apastepeque by translating from spanish wikipedia! Central America is a grey area of wikipedia and there are some facinating places with rich histories and cultures ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ 18:57, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It certainly is, and there are some active editors like JbMurray who may feel able to help. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

If you or Fritz or anybody wants to lend to Bald One a hand if you see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Nicaragua/Department templates I need to fill out the templates with the municipalities. Basically it is a cut and paste job from the respective department article and paste it into the template e.g like Template:Managua Department. I;m nearing the end of Honduras in terms of adding templates but Nicarague will be next. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ 19:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I have my hands full in other areas. Heck, there must be at least 2,457,231 editors I've not yet got around to being uncivil with. Just not enough hours in the day. :-( --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:57, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Thats great if you could lend a hand. Check my editing history over last two days its a monster!! I;ve just finished adding the templates to Honduras. If the Nicaraguan ones are waiting, after setting up the municipal categories by department it should be ready to plough through tomorrow. COsta Rica is going to be a biggy as we need templates not only for the provinces but for the individual cantons and is it quite developed on here. There are for example 10-16 cantons in a province on average, then each canton often has 20 districts/municipalities!! Soon enough all the central american places will have finoboxes and basic referenced data soon enough. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ 20:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC) Perfecto amigo gracias. Eventually the tenplates will probably be fleshed out with articles on other topics related to them such as landmarks/history.people etc.But municipalities is all at present. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ 20:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I think they're done, I see you did the last few (started at the bottom). Phew! This is way way more article work than I'm used to. Refreshing :-) Keeper ǀ 76 20:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Cheers. I've just nabbed Chinandega from spanish wikipedia. Once translated this is EXACTLY the sort of content I keep talking about that should be on here in detail for all these places rather than one line uncategorized sub stubs. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ 21:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh wow! That makes me wish I knew Spanish! (Beyond grade 9 mandatory). I can say Hola and Mucho Gusto. And Lo Siento. Other than that, I'm-o confused-o. Do you want me to add the province templates (the ones with municipalities) to the province articles? I noticed they weren't on there for the majority of them, probably because they (at the present) contain exactly the same amount of (non) material as the articles themselves. I can add them if you wish though, Keeper ǀ 76 21:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I keep missing the yellow bar...

That is so bad, it's good. Thanks! That was awesome! J.delanoy_adds 19:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Glad you liked that bit o' cheese. Made that up all by me-self, I did I did. Keeper ǀ 76 20:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

A note of appreciation

You'll never know how much you helped me at the worst moment of my life. You wrote on my talk page, and told me to say it out loud, "I'm gonna be OK". I did that, and have been doing it daily ever since. You have made a profound difference in my life, and I did not want it to go unnoted. Jeffpw (talk) 19:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Love ya, babe. Keep on keepin, and hit me up if you need anything at all of course. Wish I had email, but I don't, but if its something that you want dozens of editors to read (my talkpage is heavily watchlisted), please use my talkpage for absolutely anything at all! Be well Wiki-friend, Keeper ǀ 76 21:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I need a GA mentor, or a volunteer PR'er

Dear Keeper and associated TPS, would someone be willing to help me get an article to GA status? I promise to do all the work myself, but what I really need is a mentor who understands the process and expectations, who can give me detailed feedback iteratively as I integrate suggestions. I've got a couple of articles in mind (Whedonesque.com and James Dobson), but am willing to work on another article that reasonably interests me. i.e., I'm willing to work on an article of the mentor's choice in exchange for the associated education and training. Thanks! Jclemens (talk) 20:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

This is gonna hafta be a TPS request. I am so ridiculously "unqualified" to mentor anyone through the GA process, having never been through it myself. My first thoughts are Giggy and Malleus Fatuorum, maybe Sandy Georgia, Moni3. Not sure who can take on the workload, but I've seen these 4 be extremely helpful with GA/FA n00bs (heck, I might hit one of them up myself if I ever decide to actually write something :-) Keeper ǀ 76 21:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I reccomend Giggy, who would probably bite your hand off if you offered to help him with some GA or PR work. Gazimoff 21:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Giggy would be a good choice, he knows what he's doing. I've currently got my hands full mentoring myself. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

This should answer all your questions

Hi - this could take care of all of your questions. --Frederick day (talk) 23:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Bye. Keeper ǀ 76 00:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it me...

...or is Tangobot tallying RfA opposes slightly differently of late?  Frank  |  talk  00:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Tangobot won't tally the first oppose until there's a reply to or or another oppose. he's silly like that. I shall trick him. –xeno (talk) 00:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to assume you're right...because you usually are. So that leads to the question: how do you know this stuff? (Do you have a life?)  Frank  |  talk  00:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't help it if I'm brilliant ............ =] actually, to be honest, some user up for RFA figured it out, and I noticed them replying with placeholder comments to ensure tango properly tallied their RFA. –xeno (talk) 03:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

But you're still not asserting that you have a life, I notice... ;-)  Frank  |  talk  03:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Guilty as charged =) I'm off for now. –xeno (talk) 03:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

A question about WikiProjects and BLP

Hi, Keeper. I'm hoping the admins that hobnob on your page an are learned in the ways of WP:BLP are able to give input to a situation. From this discussion on the talk page for Charlie Crist spawned a disagreement over the placement of WikiProject LGBT studies' template on the article's talk page. Though Crist has been rumored to be gay (something I think is a political ploy), the template has been removed due to BLP concerns. Does merely the placement of a wikiproject template on a talk page have any bearing on information in the article? I posed the question at Talk:BLP, and I'm surprised it has gone unanswered. --Moni3 (talk) 00:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Despite my prolifickness in jabber, I'm all about the sources. Are there any reliable, secondar sources that say that Mr. Crist is in fact gay, I can't imagine what appropriateness there would be for adding said person to the LGBT template. Do you have any sources? If so, I'll battle with you, if not, I can't do much... Keeper ǀ 76 00:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Needs to be a damn good source, too, I imagine. Tan ǀ 39 00:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Totally uninformed off the cuff remark (I know little to nothing about the BLP policy): the placement of the template doesn't necessarily mean the person is LGBT - the fact that he's a politician who is outspoken in support of laws that restrict LGBT from marriage, etc. would seem to put him under their purvey. –xeno (talk) 00:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

(several e/c's)I was going to add, I'm not personally prejudiced one way or the other. Simply that I need to see reliable sources, not just speculation or accusation. If he is purported to be such, so be it, I'll add it myself. If not, I'll revert his page continually, with no hard feelings against those editors that feel the addition is necessary although illfounded. Keeper ǀ 76 00:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

And to Xeno, the template in question, at least historically if I may be so bold, is for those that have either belonged, or explicitly supported, such a categorization as LGBT in person or in support of such. I need a reliable source to say that Crist specifically is such before I defend such an assertion. Keeper ǀ 76 00:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• yea, don't mind me, like i said, just shout outs from the peanut gallery here. my suggestions seems to have already been shot down, cf. Hurmata (talk) 18:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC). As for the rest...TLDR. –xeno (talk) 00:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Crist has never admitted to being gay, and there are no 3rd party resources verifying that he is. As I said, I doubt that he is, and I think these are simply politically motivated rumors. However, that is not the only reason to tag an article's talk page. We have tagged Jesse Helms, Fred Phelps, and Jodie Foster. None of these people have admitted to being gay, but all have information in their article that is within the project's interest. My question, more to the point, is: does a talk page template violate BLP? The template itself does not say the subject is gay, just that the article falls within the scope of the project and accuracy of information in the article is a goal of WP:LGBT. --Moni3 (talk) 00:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I replied at Talk:Crist a bit more, but I still say without reservation that the "LGBT" tag carries more connotation to it than it should. Without verification, I strongly believe that the only articles that should carry the LGBT wikiproject tag are those that are either directly (or very closely indirectly) affected (or involved in) by the LGBT community. I don't believe, without reliable sources anyway, that Crist is a suitable candidate for the LBGT Wiiproject tag at this point. That, of course, could change tomorrow, depending on the reliable, independent sources that arise... Keeper ǀ 76 01:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but I'm going to go ahead and throw my two cents in. From what I can see, the LGBT tag isn't purely for people who identify as LGBT. Barbara Striesand has one, Paris Hilton has one, Mark Foley, Larry Craig, and Anderson Cooper all have them. So there's plenty of precedent for having the template up on the talk page of people who aren't LGBT. I think if an office ticket was submitted by the Crist camp then it would be the right thing to remove it, but until then community acceptance seems to be on the side of letting the project tag go up wherever it wants to. A change to letting these articles be tagged would be something that should be sorted out at either the project page or a general discussion area (village pump, RfC, etc). Vickser (talk) 01:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I need to disagree here, at least in respect to Crist. Unless a BLP explicitly supports, or is a part of, the LGBT community, I don't see what purpose, other than disparagement, the LGBT community would have for this particular BLP. Sources, sources, sources, people. Wikipedians, listen! Again, let me adamanetly state, I'm explicitly not against adding this tag were appropriate, nor am I against said community. I merely feel that it needs to be applied sparingly and where necessitated. Crist, at this point, is not necessitated, only because it is at "rumor" stage, without any substantial sources to back up the claims. Please don't misconstrue this as being (personally) any way bigoted or close minded. It's a BLP, and I will defend any BLP, for the sake of the integrity of Misplaced Pages, regardless of my personal views or convictions. Keeper ǀ 76 01:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I think I may be a bit slow to respond because for some reason, this is getting my dander up. I don't like responding when I'm irked. So I'm going to reply when I feel all, you know, whatev. I want to make sure, however, the following is understood: 1) adding the tag does not state or imply that the subject is gay. True, some people may make that snap assumption, but the project cannot control what people infer despite cited fact in the article. 2) The comment "other than disparagement" is disconcerting. I can only speak for myself as a member of WP:LGBT in saying that only cited fact is what I'm interested in as a member of the project. I dislike that sexual orientation is used as political fodder, similarly to the Karl Rove-brainchild of calling voters in South Carolina and asking them if it would change their votes to learn that John Edwards had a mixed race child out of wedlock. He did not, but it's South Carolina, and just putting that idea in voters' heads had an adverse impact. Soon, a candidate may be accused of being gay and it will have absolutely no impact at all, because people simply won't care. Now, however, because Crist has been listed as a possible VP for John McCain, these rumors have emerged. If they are unfounded, I would like to make sure that the article reflects that. Ideally, all members of the project should have this goal in mind. Lastly, 3) I'm still having difficulty understanding how a template on the talk page violates BLP, which involves information on the article page. These two things are clearly separate in my mind. Is it that LGBT carries with it such an aura of... accusation? or guilt? that it's presence affects the contents of the article? If that is the case, is that the issue that WP:LGBT must overcome? --Moni3 (talk) 01:39, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

edit conflict x3I do see where you're coming from, and I agree that BLP is one of if not the most important wiki rules, but I don't think the template implies that Crist is gay or an acceptance of gay rumors. If you look at the wide variety of people who have the tags, and the wording of the template itself, to me it doesn't say "we think Crist is gay" or any variant thereof. In my opinion projects should be given wide leeway in determining what's of interest to them, so long as the language of the template allows it. And don't stress! I don't what you're saying is at all anti-gay, just pro "do no harm." :) Vickser (talk) 01:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

As Gov. Crist has not identified himself as gay, and as the allegations that he is gay are rooted solely from his political opponents (I looked this up), then it is inappropriate to have the WikiProject LGBT template on his Talk Page. Barbra Streisand and Paris Hilton have gone out of their way to market their recordings and appearances to the gay media, so having an LGBT template on their pages is not problematic (how come no one mentioned Liza?). But Gov. Crist has specifically denied being gay, so having the LGBT template makes no sense. After all, this is not Rumor-pedia. Ecoleetage (talk) 03:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

<--To Moni, I need to rephrase something. When I said "other than disparagment", I did not mean Misplaced Pages disparaging a BLP by adding a tag. I meant the BLP's political opponents attempting to disparage him in the eyes of his (presumably conservative) support base/voters. I wholeheartedly agree that such an "accusation" should not be "disparaging", but it is, unfortunately, disparaging to a large percentage of the American population. Because its a BLP, and only because it's a BLP, should we be extra careful and "do no harm". I'll go look at the article and sources, and I'm going to crosspost this on your talk to be sure you see it. My apologies if anything I'm typing is being misread, I sincerely am not trying to sound offensive, but my keyboard is having difficulty expressing my tone and finding the right way to say what I'm trying to say. Keeper ǀ 76 14:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, Keeper. I understand. I think. Actually I'm not sure what's being said anymore. What seems like a very black and white situation: a template on a talk page having nothing at all to do with content in the article, is being construed in ways I never conceived. It's quite creative, actually, and had I no investment in it I might find it pretty entertaining. --Moni3 (talk) 14:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It only "seems" like a black and white issue, but it's really more of a greyish yellow-brown issue. Like the color of baby-vomit, really. One day, the world will pull its borg-like head out its ass and realize that it really isn't an issue at all, of any color. My sincere apologies to you Moni if I've caused any offense to you personally, or if you feel that I'm only feeding the negativity of the conservative viewpoints. I think, in the end, that the LGBT tag can be appropriate if that particular multi-viewpoint WikiProject feels that the article is worth including, for whatever reason. There need to be third party reliable sources (yes, even for the talkpage tagging for a BLP) that show how Crist is involved (even in a negative way) with the LGBT community. Forgetting the political mucky-muck for a sec - as a legislator/governor, has he done anything policy-wise that is of specific interest to WP:LGBT to include his article under its wing? I can see a justification for adding it, in similar fashion to adding it to Dubya/Dobson/other high profile conservative politicians/faces. Keeper ǀ 76 14:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok. This is a fight that this project has had many times, and no doubt will have numerous times in the future. Right now, BLP policy for non-article space is open to interpretation, and WP:LGBT's goals and missions, according to these discussions on Charlie Crist, are being interpreted to mean that we are trying to impose an agenda of gay sexual orientation on the article and on Crist. This is not the case. We are trying to make sure accurate information is being presented in the article. What is very bothersome is that editors not involved in WP:LGBT are allowed to interpret what our intentions and goals are, and remove the tag accordingly. Moreover, we may be the only WikiProject whose appearance on a talk page carries with it POV, just by being there. I've stared at this paragraph for what seems 30 minutes. I don't know what to write anymore... I'm nonplussed. --Moni3 (talk) 15:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

You realize, I sincerely hope, that I'm on your side of this particular issue. This keyboard is doing me injustice, I can't format my sentences properly. I'll try a ridiculously unrelated and inappropriate analogy. I wouldn't tag Minnesota with Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ireland, even though most of the captial St. Paul is Irish and was built by the Irish. Why does this one particular article need the tag? What's the motivatioin behind it? There is nothing stopping you and every other editor from making sure that the article on a US governor is accurate, NPOV, sourced. Whether the talkpage is tagged or not. The fact that the LGBT wikiproject "carries with it POV", to use your words, is unfortunate, and wrong. I'll gladly (no pun intended) help clear that. I have no malice towards the WikiProject, I don't presume to know what the group's "intentions and goals" are, and if anything that I've stated otherwise was interpretted that way, let me know so I can strike it. I have no idea what the groups goals and intentions are, other than to work collaboratively to build a better encyclopedia like every other WikiProject. Also, I don't know what nonplussed means. And I'm not sure anymore what I think about any of this, but I highly highly respect you and the work you do here (for free) on Misplaced Pages and I'm going to stop responding for somewhere between 8 and 20 hours so that I can have a clear head. I don't want anyone to be angry at anything I post in regards to this subject or subject matter. Keeper ǀ 76 15:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I understand you're not against the project, I do. I wouldn't remove WP:Ireland from any project they think is under their scope. Using analogies, imagine if I removed WP:Military History templates because I think they can only come from a place of warmongering and hyperviolence. That their actions in the article will only lead to a bias. It would be stunning, would it not? Would that not get them upset? Why should I determine what articles are within their scope? Loopholes and problems like these call for clarity in policy. I despise the bickering and accusation that goes on on the ANI page about who's more offended that who, but this seems to me as if folks are neglecting to Assume Good Faith of an entire WikiProject. Why on earth would we tag an article if not to ensure it should have accurate information in it?

A period of thought is probably called for. I would like to be able to proceed with something productive. If that means WP:LGBT should write out and have consensus from its project members about what falls under their scope for many editors to read, then I'll be happy to start that process. If BLP should be clarified, I don't know how to do that. If policy elsewhere should be clearer about AGF from a WikiProject, I don't know where to go for that or what to do. --Moni3 (talk) 15:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

RFA thank-you

Thank-you for your support of me at my recent RFA, which was successful. I have appreciated everyone's comments and encouragement there. Good Ol’factory 03:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Useless!

If you want to do something useful, Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Midtown Madness would love a copyedit. Every FAC I promise myself I'll get through without asking someone to copyedit my weak prose, and FAC I realise I should have made this promise before starting. —Giggy 03:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The key word in this post, is "if". That's a big "if". Not feeling overly useful ATM. Keeper ǀ 76 14:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

OK then

Enjoy a half-arsed

Hai-fail-ku

(Anytime you feel up to it, I'll have an article ready - just say the word!) —Giggy 14:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Jake One

As per your comments in closing the AFD on this, I have expanded the article with references. It's fair enough expecting the article to be expanded beyond one sentence, but it would be nice to see the serial deletionists occasionally encouraged to make a more constructive contribution to the project, rather than editors such as myself who go through AFD's and spend a few minutes trying to determine notability before commenting on them. Cheers.--Michig (talk) 09:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I said "or any other editors", but you have to realize that asking a deletionist to expand an article is an exercize in futility, similar to attempting to nail jelly to the wall. Unless of course, that deletionist wrote the article in the first place and someone else AFD'ed it. Then, watch out, world, the allcaps are-a comin'. Keeper ǀ 76 14:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

RfB Thank You spam

Thank you for participating in my RfB! I am very grateful for the confidence of the community shown at my RfB, which passed by a count of 154/7/2 (95.65%). I have read every word of the RfB and taken it all to heart. I truly appreciate everyone's input: supports, opposes, neutrals, and comments. Of course, I plan to conduct my cratship in service of the community. If you have any advice, questions, concerns, or need help, please let me know. Again, Thanks! — Rlevse • Talk • 08:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Small Review Request

So, I've been working a lot on this Henry Conway article of late, and it's approved for DYK and should probably make its way to the front page in the not too distant future. I'm having some issues with the Parliamentary payments scandal section, and I've just reached the point where I've read so much about it and rewritten it so much that I can't even tell if it makes sense any more. Is there any chance Keeper or a TPS would be willing to read that section over and let me know what it looks like from the perspective of a new reader? Just basic things: does it flow logically? Does it explain what happened? Is there anything unclear or that you feel needs more information? Comments and edits on the rest of the article would obviously be welcome as well, but it's only the payments section that I'm truly freaking out over. Vickser (talk) 12:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm reading this, have an idea, I'll be on your talkpage shortly! (The anticipation is killing you softly, init...Keeper ǀ 76 14:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Haiku decline

User talk:78.151.161.213 –xeno (talk) 14:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Hilarity in the simplest form. Qb | 14:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Creative and clear

The best block decline, ever

Xeno rocks my world

Keeper ǀ 76 14:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

=) –xeno (talk) 14:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

How long, oh how long

Did it take you to write such

a bad haiku, Keeps? —Giggy 14:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

If I remember

Correctly, it took no time

At all. Um. At all.

(damn. I lose) Keeper ǀ 76 14:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

A new thread on Keeper's talk brings a rush,

Edit conflicts galore in the crush,

They like blocking in verse,

Or AFD's with a theme (so much worse!),

Either way, AN/K, is enough to make MySpacers blush!

Limerick anyone? Pedro :  Chat  15:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

There once was a fellow named Keep

Whose talk page was followed by sheep

It's no big surprise

When edit conflicts arise

And the rent is surprisingly cheap. Tan ǀ 39 15:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Limerick?. Nah, I prefer Cork. Keeper ǀ 76 15:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The user "Keeper76"

He had a big bag of tricks

He was very popular

he had lots of stalk-u-lars (portmanteau of stalking and regulars)

At his talk, you can get your kicks!

I'm awful. Shapiros10 _{My work} 15:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• User talk:78.151.161.213 just threw up another nonsense unblock request if anyone wants to join the fun... or, if you're not that fun, just PP-usertalk the page =) –xeno (talk) 15:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I took the business approach to this, and if he uses the template once more I'll protect the page. Pedro :  Chat  15:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I was kinda leaning towards that being a better idea. –xeno (talk) 15:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Some people appear

To have way too much time on

Their hands this fine day  :-D Ecoleetage (talk) 15:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Eco: did you like mine? Shapiros10 _{My work} 15:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Sam, did you know there were elephants in the Apocrypha? Ecoleetage (talk) 16:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

No worries

Misplaced Pages's worth taking the trouble to make it better. We all do it. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 14:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Just testing something

for my dashboard. Wish I had a sockpuppet for this:

{{adminhelp}}

Keeper ǀ 76 17:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Looks like it works. I can help out, if you need it - but you do show up in Category:Wikipedians looking for help, if that's what you're checking. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 17:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm just checking if my dashboard updates the "immediate request" box correctly and turns bright colors. The kind of help that this admin needs is not available on Misplaced Pages anyway...:-) Keeper ǀ 76 17:59, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Aha! Gotcha. I tried to get mine to highlight items requiring immediate attention, but ended up making a mess of it - so gave up. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 18:03, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• Nice try trying to get a leg up on my dashboard, keep. Anyways, it should work now, since I pwn. –xeno (talk) 18:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• • Pwned. Bitch. Too many edit conflicts here, I'll go play somewhere else :-) Keeper ǀ 76 18:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Follow the breadcrumbs from here: User talk:Xenocidic#.7B.7BAdminhelp.7D.7D –xeno (talk) 18:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

All pages needing factual verification

That "verify" tag at the top of your page is making your talkpage show up in Category:All pages needing factual verification. Any way to fix that? Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 18:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I like it. I'm definitely in need of factual verification. Keeper ǀ 76 18:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

True though that may be... only thing I could suggest would be to subst the template and delete the category from the result - but it'd make that part of your talk page trickier to edit. Or you could just make it point to Category:Wikipedians needing factual verification... UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 18:06, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Must...avoid...clicking...redlink.... J.delanoy_adds 18:08, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I really really want that category to stay on my talkpage, is that a huge problem? I don't want to be a dick about it, I just find it hilarious tis all, and very true. Read any day's worth of threads and you'll understand...Keeper ǀ 76 18:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd really only see it as a problem if that category were ever not in a never-ending backlog. –xeno (talk) 18:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

If my page ends up being the very last in the cat, I'll find a source to verify whatever needs to be verified, or remove the vn tag me-self. Until then, happy editing! Keeper ǀ 76 18:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Eh?

Can you explain to me what "Drive-by tagging" is and yet this and this) is overlooked? I did make a courteous note on the talk page, and my views are supported by WP:LEAD. I was about to make a second comment on Talk:Wales and we edit-conflicted - I'm very surprised by the content of your message. --Jza84 |  Talk  21:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Matt Lewis' commentary is far far from ideal, and I apologize if you feel I was ignoring his tone. I personally agree that the lead has much to be desired, per LEAD (for example, all the freeking sourcing - I can't imagine how this would fare at GA let along FA). But for whatever reason, perceived or real, another editor feels/perceives that your tagging was done with less than stellar motives, and is doing a poor job of saying it. His edit summary sucked, his post on Talk:Wales was filled with accusation. He should apologize. I reverted you again because I simply honestly fail to see how "undoing" his revert of your edit and readding the template (disclosure, I detest all templates, they are distracting to our readers), when he is clearly upset by it, will somehow help alleviate the problem with the article and its lead. Keeper ǀ 76 21:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Okie dokie - like I say, I was about to pass comment with a further, more detailed response about why I thought that tag was more than appropriate in this instance (pointing to WP:LEAD) but got edit conflicted with this. I felt (past tense) aggrieved that, objectively, I've done the right thing (IMO), and that you happen "detest all templates" has now given fuel to an out-of-control incivility-fire. Oh well, C'est la vie; no hard feelings on my part. I'm sure some good will come out of it. --Jza84 |  Talk  21:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Good (I think?) I don't think anything is an "out-of-control incivility-fire", but perhaps there is more context somewhere that I'm not seeing. I have only ever worked on the Wales article, I have no vested interest in the content (or knowledge for that matter), and was asked by Ddstretch to comment as uninvolved, regarding the lead sentence. There's an archive of that craziness on Talk:Wales. The article has remained in my watchlist is all. I'm sure some good will come out of it, I found a refreshingly dedicated group of editors (with vastly different POVs mind you) that came together and found a solution that has "stuck" for a couple of weeks, no small feat considering the edit warring and near-protection of the article that was eminent. I think what happened is that the tagging felt "drive-by", too soon after so much effort went into the "lead". I strongly agree with you that there are multiple issues in the lead. The tag, while added completely in good faith, was simply not helping address the issues, it was merely shining a blinding light in the eyes of those working on fixing it. Good will come from the discussion on the talkpage, I have no doubt. Moving right along! Keeper ǀ 76 21:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

July 2008

Please don't stop introducing jokes into Misplaced Pages, such as those you created at User talk:Tanthalas39. Misplaced Pages is a community, and contributions of this type are considered hilarious! Continuing to add jokes and other disruptive content into articles may lead to you being a institutionalized for humor! --Clubjuggle /C 20:15, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

heh. guilty. And, is that really a template? I need to find that one, I can think of several admins pages that I can add it to...Keeper ǀ 76 20:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

It's in my user space at User:Clubjuggle/Uw-joke. I have no objection to moving it to WP-space if you think that will fly! --Clubjuggle /C 20:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Do it. It will make for quite the hilarious MFD down the road if anyone else actually notices it. I recommend Template:WIKIPEDIA IS SO SERIOUS, AND THIS IS A SERIOUS WARNING. heh. Keeper ǀ 76 20:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

See Template:uw-serious. :) --Clubjuggle /C 21:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Purrrrfect. And MBisanz, shame on you for actually bluelinking my ridiculously long WP: template idea. But hilarious nonetheless. May they never go red....Keeper ǀ 76 21:09, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Just when you think I'm not watching. MBisanz 21:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I always knew you were watching. I don't swear as much as I used to because I know you (and Jesus) are watching....Keeper ǀ 76 21:15, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

"Part of the uw-humour user warning template series" :) Gazimoff 21:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I need someone to talk to... oh :)

Hey there Keeper. I just came here because I almost never get any new messages anymore. Besides Balloonman a few days ago and the 4 DYK templates on my short talk page... Heh... I just wanted to let you know I got a new user page design (Yay!). So if you come across someone with my old user page design (i.e this old design), it's not me. ;) I also started adopting again... You can look at the program here... hopefully it won't break down like the last time from what I've learned. I'll basically adopt only one editor, possibly two if someone desperately needs it. Would like your opinions since I have nobody to talk to. :P -- RyRy (talk) 22:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Pudge!

Pudge a Yankee?? WTF were they (Yankees and Tigers!) thinking! ESPN. I'm not happy. Not happy, Hank! /OT comments TravellingCari 22:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Hehe, soon you'll see Derek Jeter with the Boston Red Sox. :P -- RyRy Public (talk) 22:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

(e/c response to TCari) It only proves to me that your team is more willing to buy a team rather than build one. Glad to see Mr. Golden-glove out of the AL central, for what it's worth...Keeper ǀ 76 22:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

bite me :-p, they gave away nothing. Farnsworth was an inherited commodity (from whom, I don't remember) so it's even. To Ryry, nope probably the Dodgers when his contract ends, but I'll believe that when I see it. Don't think Torre will last that long. We didn't need a third catcher. To quote a friend, it fills the need for a Rodriquez we know used steroids :o TravellingCari 22:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Like the Nady trade, this was a rip off. Farnsworthless is terrible. It's basically just a salary dump, but couldn't they dump his salary on another team? Pudge is still one of the best catchers around. Enigma 22:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Was going to ping you but I figured you'd see it here. Once again, Keeperpedia is about to become baseballpedia. I don't get how Cashman does it, but he does. This was less one-sided than Nady, I think. Did Detroit need someone in the pen? I haven't dug around too much. Headed offline for a bit, back later. TravellingCari 22:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Just got back from Yanks-O's. Cheered teh loudest in teh stadium when a Giambi homer went foul.

Some game for Abreu, huh?

And i heard about pudge. No comment. Shapiros10 _{My work} 01:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Cari, Farnsworth played for the Cubs first, I remember going to Wrigley a few times and seeing him. He's not the best reliever, sure, but pitching is still the Yankees' biggest weakness right now. Posada is out, but Molina has been playing good defense and hitting somewhat well too. It doesn't make sense for the Yanks to trade a decent pitcher for yet another old catcher who's retiring in a couple years. GlassCobra 02:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Would someone take a look at this for me?

There's a user that's flinging baseless accusations of personal attacks, incivility, and on and on at first Blechnic, and now me. S/he's drug Fritzpoll, Eusebus, and a couple of others into it. Would someone take a look and warn her about accusing others of policy violations that they didn't commit? Here is the link. S. Dean Jameson 02:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)