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Revision as of 09:43, 3 August 2008

Certification

You need to certify, Chris. Viridae 22:15, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Done, thanks. (You can tell it's been a long time since I've filed an RfC, can't you?) -- ChrisO (talk) 22:25, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I think there's still a problem with the certification. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. - unless ScienceApologist can show some kind of involvement in this dispute, I believe his certification needs to be removed. As far as I can find, only ChrisO was involved in this dispute and since its essentially another challenge of sanctions under an ArbCom ruling, this should be back at an appropriate venue such as AE or Arb clarifications. Shell 23:45, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. SA doesn't appear to be involved in this dispute, and certainly hasn't tried to resolve it. - auburnpilot talk 23:46, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

To my knowledge, there is no overlap between ScienceApologist and ChrisO. It is true that I have dealt with both users, but it's on different articles, and in relation to completely separate ArbCom cases. Awhile ago, I issued a one-week page ban on ScienceApologist, but it was for the Atropa Belladonna article, a completely different topic area from Muhammad al-Durrah. I would also point out that ScienceApologist already appealed that ban at ANI, and the community upheld my restriction. So again, no overlap. --Elonka 02:29, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Wizardman, the rfc clerk, has struck ScienceApologist's certification. See his comment and User_talk:Wizardman#Proof Someone else will need to certify.Sumoeagle179 (talk) 02:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

To my knowledge, no one else has raised a concern about ChrisO's ban, so no other certifiers are possible. --Elonka 02:36, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I do recall myself making an attempt to resolve the issue of his ban, but I haven't finished reading everyone's comments, so I'm not about to certify anything just yet. Just pointing out that there are others that are possible. -- Ned Scott 04:38, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

The locus of the dispute is Elonka's methods in managing editing conditions and disputes, not simply the al-Durrah article. I have used the al-Durrah to illustrate my personal experience of the problem. If ScienceApologist or other editors have similar concerns about Elonka's methods, an endorsement seems appropriate. -- ChrisO (talk) 06:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Rather than actually read the first few sentences of ChrisO's statement and take the fairly evident wider interpretation of these criticisms, Elonka predictably chose to take the most narrow interpretation possible. It was not unexpected that Elonka would try to wikilawyer her way out of the wider interpretation of these criticisms, because this and off-wiki coordination of strategy are precisely two of the major concerns with Elonka's behaviour. The other, also referred to by ChrisO, is her occasional but systematic backing for politely disruptive SPAs and her persistent hounding of editors or administrators of long standing who resist them. These possibly well meaning but nevertheless misguided "experiments", often carried out against consensus, should no doubt be discussed in this RfC. Mathsci (talk) 08:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

If this RfC is deemed unacceptable, then a new RfC could be created with the cause for concern being something along the lines of 'Elonka's style of ArbCom enforcement'. A few editors editors would have to post on her talk page, repeating concerns in a generalized manner, and then we would be back here again. PhilKnight (talk) 12:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I do not believe that Ned Scott is a valid certifier. He has not contacted me in any way about ChrisO's current ban. I would also point out that there is a long (negative) history between me and Ned Scott, and that he has often popped up to criticize actions that I have taken. If Ned Scott has diffs showing that he has "tried and failed" to resolve the situation with ChrisO's recent ban, I would be interested in seeing them. --Elonka 19:36, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Considering that the behavior being question includes your habit of trying to wikilawyer your way out of conflict, you might consider letting the endorsement stand based upon his actions on ChrisO's page, which you certainly saw and indicated that ChrisO was not the only person who had a problem with your behavior. To try to get this to dies from lack of standing is an attempt not to resolve conflict but to have the page erased as if there were no evidence. You need to be proactive in working to resolve complaints instead of denying any problem and trying to make it disappear through red tape and campaigning. DreamGuy (talk) 21:16, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

How about if everyone just follows the existing policy as written? That's why there are policies, so everyone doesn't do what they want to do. --Fat Cigar 21:29, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Based upon the indenting you seem to be suggesting in this comment that my suggestion wasn't following existing policy. It certainly would be. I believe ChrisO and Ned Scott were also following existing policy. So the "everyone" part seems misplaced. DreamGuy (talk) 22:59, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there a person/persons/relevant board where this could be decisively sorted out? I forsee extra drama and difficulties if this issue is not properly resolved. IronDuke 23:06, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes I remember those comments by Ned Scott written at one of the venues that ChrisO used to complain. But it was ChrisO that applied for page protection, and mediation and got both. On June 9th ChrisO asks for the help of an uninvolved admin and Elonka volunteers, asking first if she is acceptable, and he says "Your assistance would certainly be appreciated." The following day ChrisO adds at the FTN "An informal mediation on the above has now begun on Talk:Muhammad al-Durrah, with the help of Elonka. It would be helpful if editors with experience of dealing with fringe theories (and their proponents) could participate." He did not complain about the ORR rule until Elonka got serious about enforcing it. ChrisO accepted the 0RR rule as part of the deal to unlock the page and start editing. If he was not happy with the mediation conditions, he should/could have brought his concerns to the group, as we as a group had accepted the conditions and were bound by them, and if we as a group had told Elonka that we no longer wished to abide by those rules, then she would have gracefully stepped down. Instead, he waited until the sanctions caught him, and then went to a mediation. It was at this mediation, and in that context, that Ned Scott brought up his concerns. I would be interested to know if he contacted Elonka personally to discuss his concerns or if that was the only occasion? Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:21, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

See also

See this request for clarification from June, in which the Muhammad al-Durrah sanction was at issue. --bainer (talk) 14:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments by Shell Kinney

After reading Chris's statement and the statements of those editors supporting his views, I'm really concerned by one particular thread I'm picking up. It appears that some believe that editing sanctions should not be applied evenly, but that administrators should make decisions on who's viewpoint is correct and act accordingly. Except in obvious cases (BLP springs to mind), administrators are not arbitrators of content, nor do I believe that Arb rulings are meant to be used in such a manner. What administrators can, and should do, is enforce civil editing and cooperation and allow regular community consensus processes to determine content. If this community process is not working, then we need to open a dialog on what is failing and why - not attempt to set up Administrators as content judges. Shell 15:22, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

1. Agree. This is the gist of the supporting arguments put forth by Relata refero, Skinwalker & Nickhh Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:36, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear, no it isn't. And nor do I see anyone asking for admins to rule on content or to apply sanctions unevenly. Myself and Relata both simply suggested that 0RR does not help in this sort of situation (nothing to do with even or uneven application of any sanctions); and myself and Skinwalker were both complaining precisely that sanctions were not being applied evenly. I know we shouldn't really have discussion threads here but comments made by myself and others are being misrepresented. Or perhaps I should say misunderstood.--Nickhh (talk) 16:08, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

It most certainly is so - here is what you wrote: "You can't treat both of the "sides" here as if they are equivalent in where they are coming from, they are not". Perhaps you'd like to refactor what you wrote if you didn't mean it. Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:29, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I also disagree. See the comments by Shot info and Skinwalker. --Ronz (talk) 17:06, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry CM, still can't see the bit where I say that therefore sanctions of the sort being discussed here should only be imposed on some editors but not others (or rather, imposed on them on a different basis). "Treat" has quite a broad definition. All I am saying is that when blanket editing restrictions like 0RR are imposed, every editor is going to be caught by them, from the most conscientious, policy-observant good faith editor to out and out vandals. Imposing them seems to be a way of saying "you're all as bad as each other and none of you can be trusted", which I do not believe to be the case. Nor can I see the damning quotes to supposedly back up the similar claims you've made against Relata & Skinwalker. --Nickhh (talk) 17:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

When you complain that "You can't treat both of the "sides" here as if they are equivalent", you are obviously requesting unequal "treatment". If you didn't mean that, refactor your comments. If you meant that - then Shell is spot on in calling you out. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:01, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Shell Kinney has made false statements on my talk page to support Elonka. I striked the dishonesty. QuackGuru 18:40, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

"It appears that some believe that editing sanctions should not be applied evenly, but that administrators should make decisions on who's viewpoint is correct and act accordingly." I have two problems with this statement. First, this is true only to the extent that admins can block people for obvious violations of policy, like violating 3RR or vandalism. Otherwise, administrators should wait until a consensus developes among editors that one person is being disruptive and act accordingly - what I mean to say is that in most cases admninistrators simply should not be making decisions about whom to block or ban. 'Administrators are neither judges nor cops. Administrators have certain tools that enable them to block or ban but in most cases they should be instruments of the community, not excercising their power, which is what I think Elonka has done. Second, there are some clonflicts that are all about content, and can be resolved only by people who are willing to research and discuss content. In these cases Elonka is just another editor and her status as admin is irrelevant - what I mean to say is that in cases where resolution must be based on deciding which editor is right, it is irrelevant that one is an administrator. But Elonka makes her status as administrator the central issue! In these cases there may be a serious conflict and what is needed is not an admin using their special powers, but snesible and experienced editors who can help informally mediate ... it shouldn't matter whether they are admins or not, but they should be editors whow ant to help write a GREAT encyclopedia meaning a big book filled with articles that have reliable and notable contents! Slrubenstein | Talk 03:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman made a really great comment - there are times when a content dispute becomes a behavioral problem that administrators can help with because an editor is somehow disrupting the ability of others to edit normally. I've noticed multiple references to people pushing a strong POV or pushing fringe beliefs and how much trouble these editors are and I guess I'm wondering why they end up being so much trouble? Are they careful not to do things that rise to the level of being disruptive (i.e. not reverting too often or keep adding junk but use different sources each time to try to make it stick) or are they being disruptive and its just difficult to get any kind of helpful sanctions placed on them? It seems like several ArbCom cases lately have given a rather open book on things administrators can do in order to try to resolve a dispute -- if the type of restrictions Elonka is trying won't help in every case, what other kinds of things might help? Garden variety disputes are one thing, but certain areas seem to keep popping back up to Arbitration and it doesn't seem like we've really come up with a good solution yet. This is kind of off topic for this RfC, so feel free to toss ideas or comments over on my talk if you'd like. Shell 05:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Certified

I've moved this RfC to certified, given that there has now been a second certification from Ned Scott (talk · contribs) with valid evidence of trying to solve the dispute. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:36, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Ryan, as I posted above, I challenge Ned Scott's ability to certify this. He has provided no diffs, and I can speak from personal knowledge, that he made no attempt to resolve the issue involving ChrisO's recent ban. --Elonka 01:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

There are diffs provided, of Ned Scott's attempts to resolve. Viridae 01:55, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

No, look at the dates on those diffs. They are from mid-June. That ban that he was concerned about was already taken to ArbCom, and ArbCom upheld the ban. It was a different situation. --Elonka 02:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

What does pre- or post-arbcom have to do with anything? Is a limited arbcom pronouncement a free pass out of a RFC that addresses wider issues? This is obvious rules-lawyering. NS is clearly referring to the same situation. Skinwalker (talk) 02:55, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The point of an RfC is to deal with "unresolved" issues, partially as a step towards ArbCom. Once an issue has been reviewed by ArbCom, that's about as resolved as it gets. See Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. Since that particular incident, ChrisO's ban expired, he was then disruptive again, and banned again, but to my knowledge no one anywhere expressed any concerns about that ban, except for ChrisO. --Elonka 03:14, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to add that after reviewing Ned Scott's diffs, they seem to point only to his objection to her imposing 0RR. Chris, AFAICT, has not objected to 0RR. These are different issues. I think it's a bit thin for what seems right now to be mainly one editor's grievance against another, and not a community problem with Elonka's behavior. Flexibility on this point wouldn't bother me overmuch, but then I think we'd have to change the certifying conditions to soemthing like, "Please try to find someone to co-certify your RfC, unless you think it's really important or in your view it for some reason isn't necessary." IronDuke 04:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I've read ChrisO's summary on the RfC for a second time just to make sure, but it does seem Chris has a clear objection to the 0RR approach, and it is the direct cause of most of the other issues cited in this RfC. -- Ned Scott 06:09, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I have re-read ChrisO's summary on the RFC, and will note the following,

"The basic problem is that the editing conditions are being thoughtlessly and aggressively managed, with a rigid application of 0RR being prioritised above maintaining NPOV and basic factual accuracy, and are being enforced erratically and selectively. In short, it is a poorly thought-out and poorly handled approach."

I added the emphasis to demonstrate that ChrisO's disdain for the 0RR editing restriction for stated reason. seicer | talk | contribs 06:20, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

You're misreading it. My "disdain" is not for the 0RR editing restriction but the way that it is being applied and prioritised above basic content policies. 0RR should never be interpreted in such a way that it penalises an effort to resolve (for instance) indisputable factual errors added by another editor - there has to be some latitude, not just a rigid application of it. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:43, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Disagreements with posted views ("disendorsements")

Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse. The circularity of "Disendorsements" is strongly discouraged. They mess up the proceedings, bring us closer to the dreaded chaos of threaded discussion, dissolve logic, and, well, are undesirable. See guidelines. . I have moved two such sections to this talkpage, see below. Feel free to indicate disagreement with any posted view on the main page, but please do it by writing a view of your own, however brief. Use positive endorsements only. Bishonen | talk 08:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC).

Users who do not endorse Shell Kinney's comments

1. Relativism of the nature established by Elonka's mercenary and completely arbitrary (heh) "zero tolerance" sanctions should have gone out with wood paneling and disco. I believe the latter is what's most at issue here. --Badger Drink (talk) 04:35, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
2. So agree with Badger here. Shot info (talk) 06:20, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
3. But Elonka has effectively been acting as a "content judge" by acting as if all points of view are equal in every case. But they are not, all content is clearly not equal, but Elonka seems to believe it is. Indeed Elonka has gone out of her way to side with editors who insist on equal weight for tiny minority or minority points of view. It's dangerous to pretend that content disputes are really behaviour disputes, it effectively means that any admin can get involved and introduce bans at any time, severely compromising the neutrality of an article. It is especially dangerous when the admin does not get involved with understanding the subject matter, taking the attitude that an editor is being "ganged up on" is absurd in content disputes, it is likely in a case like this that the edior is pushing a minority pov, which is why every other editor disagrees, but this is unimportant to Elonka. If everyone were to take this attitude Wikipeda would be giving equal weight to intelligent design at the evolution article and alternative medicine at the medicine article. All points of view are not equal, and single editors trying to force minority points of view into articles should not be encouraged by admins. Frankly I'm shocked by this authoritarian attitude and I'm worried that Misplaced Pages will soon become a "police state" if this sort of thing carries on, where "admins" set themselves up as judge and jury and think they should have the power to summarily and arbitrarily ban editors from articles, that they effectively enforce the inclusion of any and all points of view by any editor who wants to contribute because the "poor soul is being ganged up on". This is not school, Elonka is not a teacher, there is certainly no requirement that any old nonsense should appear in an article because a single editor wants it to be there, if this is the new "policy" on content, then Misplaced Pages will cease to be an encyclopaedia and will just become a repository of the "weird and wonderful" rather than of well researched knowledge. Alun (talk) 06:51, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Users who do not endorse Mathsci's comments

1. I am always suspicious when I hear statements like this: "There are a few contentious articles on WP which attract editors with a thinly veiled racist POV to push, often SPAs." First of all, being one of the "named" so-called SPA's that has taken to editing this article, the implication rings rather harsh in my ear, and sounds like a "thinly veiled" accusation of 'racism' directed at me personally, since according to ChrisO I am one of those SPAs he's been complaining about. Of course I might add that your sentence also leaves room for those "racist" POV-pushing editors attracted to this article to be editors of long-standing as well. The application of "fringe view" seeks to marginalize a view - ChrisO has referred to it as "pathological thinking." The application of that term should be used with caution, as with other pejoratives, like "racist." Tundrabuggy (talk) 01:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment I was talking about Race and intelligence, which from the history page you have never edited. Have you possibly misread what I wrote? If so kindly refactor your comment. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 05:51, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

1. Do not endorse. Sounds like McCarthyism. --Fat Cigar 01:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
2. I am not endorsing this, because it classifies those who are in disagreement with the article as those who are "editors with a thinly veiled racist POV" and/or "SPAs," which is a fallacious statement. For an editor to imply that other editors who do not hold belief that of which he edits by, is a poor attitude and conveys that they may have difficulty working with other editors if they hold this preconceived notion. seicer | talk | contribs 02:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment It was difficult working with user:Fourdee, but it is incorrect to suggest that it had something to do with me. How would you characterize his behaviour? Mathsci (talk)