Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:40, 4 August 2008

I used to be an administrator at Misplaced Pages, and an enthusiastic content contributor, but after a head-on encounter with the Arbitration Committee around Christmas 2007, I'm neither (although I keep an admin in my pocket). If you like, see links by Kosebamse, Giano, Geogre, and myself; but I can't say I recommend anybody to dive into the sour and incurable old business. Thanks to all friends and sympathisers for the lovely messages of encouragement which they posted throughout those troubles, with special thanks to my pretty secretary. There are a lot of great people here. Peace. Bishonen | talk 22:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC).

				File:Animalibrí.gif
Bishonen is semi-retired.		The MONGO Ursus americanus.		The Giano flutterer.
File:Irpen reka.jpg
The Irpen river.		The Geogre flower.		The Arctic Balloon arctic balloon.

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Talk archives

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OK?

Are you OK? Your emails are bouncing back? C'mon life is never that bad. Look at me! Wilipedia needs your insight, perceptivenes, intellect and wit? At least let us know you are still incommunicado. Giano (talk) 19:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

It needs what? (What do you want to borrow?) I need a little time off, that's all. E-mail's a great way to savage somebody. Don't worry, Giacomo. It's only the Internet. It'll pass. Look at the wikibreak sunset photo, it's a bit like something by the Skagen painters. I'll be back in a few days. Bishonen | talk 21:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC).

A comment

I have posted a comment at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Geogre-William M. Connolley/Evidence that is largely directed at you.

I disagree with your characterization that "George has not wheel-warred", but significantly the reason I disagree is more a semantic one than a factual one. We appear to have different conceptions of what defines a "wheel war". While I can't speak for him, this may relate to Sir Fozzie's opinion as well. Dragons flight (talk) 02:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Åse Kleveland

Wikinews is doing an interview with former Norwegian Culture Minister Åse Kleveland, and I would really like your input. Please, if you have time, think up some questions that we could ask Ms. Kleveland. The page for submissions is here. I'm going to be wrapping up the call for questions on Friday evening, so please get back to me ASAP. Hope everything is well with you! Mike H. Fierce! 03:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I saw you responded below, so I know you're there...can I get a response please? Mike H. Fierce! 17:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Trout/Rose

Is this what you had in mind? Tex (talk) 17:27, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Aahhh, very lovely. I confess I was secretly hoping somebody would take me up on it. You've done it perfectly. Now give yourself one! (Just the rose in your case.) Bishonen | talk 17:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC).

Actually, I think it looks pretty silly. I just took two wiki pictures and slapped them together and drew a line for the stem. Someone will probably delete it soon, so enjoy it while you can! Tex (talk) 18:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

See! Told ya they would be deleting it soon. Does anyone who watches this page know about image descriptions? Should I just say "I took two public domain pictures and manipulated them"??? Any help would be appreciated. Tex (talk) 18:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Pretty well. Link to the images (I assume they're from Commons) in your description, and add what you have said above. Your PD release should be fine. The editor who put the notice on your page might be able to help too. Risker (talk) 19:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I only noticed the problem after reading your comment above and being curious why anyone would care to delete it. The first important point is to show us where those specific component images came from. Dragons flight (talk) 19:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks to Risker and Dragons flight. Hopefully the new description will be OK. Sorry to be mucking up your page, Bish. Tex (talk) 19:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Long live the rose trout. Dragons flight (talk) 19:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• Love the Rose Trout! Now may I have a picture of the little SirFozzie running away from Bishzilla, please? Bishonen | talk 21:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC).

• And/or picture of little ArbCom eating worms? Zilla like this game ! See little user properly intimidated here? Now... run! bishzilla _ROARR!! 22:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC).

Ha! I'd love to come up with some more pictures for the 'Zilla, but I'm off to celebrate the 4th. If no other creative-types beat me to it, I'll try to find your requested pics on Monday. Have a great weekend, Bishonen. Tex (talk) 22:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Risking being cursed for saying I ruined the layout, pictures, and plan...

I had to point out a moment I'm proud of: the last exchange on talk:The Dunciad. I actually could have used that question as a major teaching point, but I don't think the interlocutor wanted to learn. Geogre (talk) 13:01, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

You're one of the good guys

I've withdrawn my overhasty remarks about you and apologise for being angry and frustrated. I still have enormous respect for you. It's a shame I can't share your opinion on one matter but you're one of the good guys. See Dbachmann's comment there too. I hope there are no hard feelings and that you can understand from the entire context of the incident why I was so het up. Best. --Folantin (talk) 12:13, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Peace. Bishonen | talk 16:17, 7 July 2008 (UTC).

Re: Rfar, etc

Yeah, I saw your comment. Sorry if I sounded like I was hyperboling it. I'm not trying to knock anyone's contributions, least of all you guys, but I'm not sure exactly where you got that impression. If you point it out, I'll try and refactor? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 20:20, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess that's a misunderstanding. I didn't say you were knocking our contributions, but that your tone in referring to us was scornful and dismissive. See where I say that? Tone as in your choice of words. Your phrasing. "Everyone here is well-acquainted with Giano's drama shows and exactly who shows up where to defend him". "Diatribe." The scare quotes. Stuff like that. And that I wouldn't have expected it.

I appreciate the good intentions of the changes you have now made. But actually not the effect of them so much... which is, to make my own posts look nonsensical, both in the evidence and the workshop. I wish you would strike through your original instead. I think it's altogether proper, on an evidence page, to make it clear when stuff was written, which is why I dated my own addition in the heading. Certainly if someone has responded in the meantime. Bishonen | talk 22:31, 9 July 2008 (UTC).

I put a link in to my original statement. I don't know what you mean by "scare quotes", I was just trying to point out that it's not just friends of Giano in the conventional sense, but a more encompassing group. Once again, I'm sorry for causing offense, but I guess it's just my interpretation about what Giano does- as soon as he gets blocked, or something happens, he evangelizes on his talk page about it and it does become a drama show, causing much more fuss than the actual incident (I blocked him in violation of 3rr for one hour and we got an ArbCom case out of that.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 23:11, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

For scare quotes, see our article scare quotes. Bishonen | talk 23:48, 10 July 2008 (UTC).

Ah, ok. But once again, I did not mean to demean you by some negative connotation (although looking back on it, I shoulda phrased it better so it did not appear so.) Semantics, semantics... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 00:49, 11 July 2008 (UTC) (oh, and you don't have to double post, I do check back on other people's talk pages!)

WMC block of Bardcom - timeline

Hi Bish. I posted a timeline at ANI. Partly because I realised that while you are right to say "WMC's diff shows that the warning was understood", there is a second and important extra condition - that the edit Bardcom was blocked for was after he saw the warning. It turns out that it was, but only just and more because the edit he made four minutes earlier to WMC's talk page (the templated warning edit) shows his awareness of the warning, not the near-simultaneous edits he made to the talk page and article. Would you agree with my statement at ANI that: "if Bardcom had not templated WMC, and Bardcom had reverted at the article before reading and editing the talk page, Bardcom could have quite legitimately argued that he hadn't seen the warning yet"? I know Bardcom didn't say that, but I'm bringing this up because this matter of 'was the block-triggering edit made after the editor saw the warning' is a point that gets missed sometimes (I think you or Geogre made the same argument that Geogre was busy writing a talk page message instead of resetting a certain block). The sequence should be: warning, sees warning, edit, block. Sometimes it is: warning, edit (half a minute later), block, "hey, I didn't see the warning!". It can also be (when the admin gets very confused, or spends a long time writing the warning): edit, warning, block (cue red faces all round). Or even: warning, edit (before seeing warning), responds to warning, block, "I was about to revert and apologise!". Anyway, just some things to think about, I suppose, and I still think the point should be made very forcefully that people should post warnings to user talk pages (for the orange bar) and ensure that enough time has passed for the orange bar to alert the editor. Sometimes, when writing long posts (like this one!), the orange bar doesn't alert an editor until many minutes after the warning was issued. Sometimes even longer if an edit window gets left open. Carcharoth (talk) 23:57, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, gee—yes, sure. I did check those times before posting. These seem to me minor matters, and I would far sooner complain of the comment in the ANI discussion that "It was a three-hour block. Please get over yourself", as far as mistreatment of Bardcom goes. I detest that attitude. Blocks are big deals. Blocks hurt. All blocks. A three-hour block is not a matter of "preventing somebody from editing for three hours," as you sometimes see stated. I mean, I know of an editor, not especially sensitive, who still feels humiliated by a bad block by Betacommand in 2006. One really ought to catch up admins, every time, on such cavalier and callow notions. I certainly would have done, if HalfShadow had been an admin, and perhaps I should in any case. Bishonen | talk 06:19, 13 July 2008 (UTC).

You might also be interested in the discussion on my talk page about blocks and blocking philosophies. In particular the comments by User:Abd. I am thinking of investing in chairs and tea-making facilities and charging rent, so many people have come to my talk page this month! :-) I will have to make clear the shutters are down on that talk page when I go on wikibreak soon. Carcharoth (talk) 12:36, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Don't bother, we will just show up and talk in your absence. No need to play host, we can take care of ourselves.  ;-) Risker (talk) 20:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

stray, unimportant question

your signature on giano's talk page today had the name 'Thompson'....what does it mean? if anything? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 20:13, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Good one, Bish! Funniest thing I've seen on WP in a while. Rocks&Dirt, try reading the thread from the beginning...Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 20:24, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

gah. that's what I get for not re-skimming the thread when I ask a stupid question....*sigh* --Rocksanddirt (talk) 21:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

^_^ Bishonen | talk 21:53, 14 July 2008 (UTC).

Thanks

I saw your notes to the arbitrators. That is what alerted me to Kirill's moving of his proposals from workshop to proposed decision. Doesn't look like he changed anything or tried to provide any additional context or even acknowledge any of the Workshop discussion as all. Makes me wonder what the point was. I've posted here about that and some other points. Carcharoth (talk) 10:24, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Mhmm. Er...do you know how to make permanent links, Carcharoth? And the importance of using them in arbitration cases? See Simple diff and link guide (not just because I wrote it...:-)). Bishonen | talk 10:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC).

Yes, I do. I don't always, I admit. Where did I forget to use them? Are you say the headers in the arbitration case might change? Carcharoth (talk) 10:59, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yes, now I see you do, sorry. (But I got to mention the guide, haha!) I was worried by the links in your "Context and community" post here, that's all. No, I don't mean just the proposed decision headers. (Though certainly I think those might change! FT2 is always fiddling with them, for one thing.) It's just that your posts are important and much read, so it would be a great pity if there were dead links in them. Bishonen | talk 14:42, 15 July 2008 (UTC).

Maybe you forgot this? :-) I find your diff and link guide very helpful, but did you know there are ways round that? Try and link to a section in a new or old version of User talk:FayssalF... And thanks for the compliment! You were quite right to remind me to use permanent links, as I didn't do that in a few previous cases. Having said that, if there is ever another Giano case (heaven forbid!) I will be keeping out - I made a comment that the same people prosecute (or snipe from the sidelines each time), so if there is another case, I will merely point that out, request that those people let others have their say, and then watch from the sidelines. The next arbitration case I get involved in will hopefully not be for at least a month, and will be something completely different (in case that came across wrong, I'll just keep an eye on RfArb and see what looks interesting, not filing a case or anything horrendous like that). Carcharoth (talk) 14:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Just say no!

Just say no to... peanuts! And, be sure to drink plenty of fluids! El_C 18:35, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

FYI

The other day I stumbled across this in an archive while I was searching for something else. Turned out to be fairly easy to restore. Best, Durova 00:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I had to look carefully to see it wasn't from the movie. I know the shape of the mountain used in the movie though—I live quite near it—and, no, that's got to be the real Spitzbergen. Bishonen | talk 14:35, 19 July 2008 (UTC).

Streuth!

Got any gin? 5 parts with one part vermouth would hit the spot, tonight. Giano (talk) 19:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Have some brännvin, the both of you! Bishonen | talk 20:46, 15 July 2008 (UTC).

Hurra för Svealand

Hurra för Götaland

Å hurra för potatisland

som gav oss brännevin!

som gav oss brännevin!

bishzilla _ROARR!! 22:02, 15 July 2008 (UTC).

I-totally understood that. Which brings me to my next point: more scratching groundhog behind ear & rescuing a baby bunny, less bad things! El_C 09:05, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Idiotbot

Could you have a quick peek at this deleted image , I'm sure it's one that has been deleted before, and that I took from a vaporetto, if it is a lopsided palazzo, across the canal clearly taken from a boat by an amateur photographer could you undelete it, on the premise that any image is better than none. It has even been speedied FGS , is it a wonder I get bad tempered? Thank you. Giano (talk) 08:35, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I've started trying to, but as you can see the situation is a little complex. Can't you re-upload it yourself, with a rationale about it being self-created, if you took it and have it? Bad-tempered? Who? Never! Bishonen | talk 09:48, 19 July 2008 (UTC).

No I can't because all the old fotos are in a cardboard boxes in the attics, being eaten by mice, untill such time as I decide to catalogue them, and I don't know where to start looking. Giano (talk) 10:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh. Well, the above is the best I can do, then. Bishonen | talk 16:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC).

Re: Image problem

Hi, Melesse. I see that you have speedied the image , with the comment (Speedy deleted per (CSD I7), was an image with an invalid fair use rationale and the uploader was notified more than 48 hours ago. using TW). User:Giano—who is not the uploader—has asked me to restore it, because he thinks (from the amateurish quality) that it must be a self-taken photo, although it was apparently uploaded with an erroneous Fair Use rationale. Going to look, I intended to write to the uploader, Habanerosrl and ask him/her to re-upload it, this time with a proper rationale, if he has indeed taken the photo himself. But I'm flummoxed by seeing that Habanerosrl's talkpage is a redlink. Nobody has ever sent any notification to it, as far as I can understand. So, well, how can he have been notified more than 48 hours ago..? And is there any point in me creating the talkpage and posting on it? I must have missed something here. Can you throw any light, and assist us in getting the image back, if possible? Giano's viewpoint is that the page needs it. Bishonen | talk 09:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC).

Ugh... This again. I wish people would read, the upload prompt pops up a big red warning saying that pictures of living people and existing buildings can't have a fair use license. So of course there's no notification, the upload form assumes (wrongly) that people will read the warning and stop there. Do go ahead with asking them to re-upload with a proper license though. Melesse (talk) 04:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for getting in touch. But I hope you won't mind me saying that it would be a good idea to stop saying the uploader was notified, if they weren't. (Twinkle isn't responsible for anything you say; you are.) I mean, either stop saying it or (better) start doing it. Regards, Bishonen | talk 09:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC).

Civility and baiting

There is a discussion here in which your insights and opinions, particularly about baiting, may be able to provide important touchpoints for people to be thinking about. Trout Ice Cream (talk) 02:29, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

very interesting thread from wikipedia review

I suppose wikipedia policy does not have jurisdiction offsite.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 03:16, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

ROFLing Ralph Rolfing

I found another dunce who deserves consideration: James Ralph. I wonder if his Touchstone could be dug up in one of those PD sources. It seems like a hot document. (Battestin makes much of it.) I've done two others, too, but they're not that interesting. Why? I don't know why I'm still writing articles. Someone asked me, so I did. Other than that, I really don't. Geogre (talk) 18:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Poetry and the project

While there should be some ramifications for bad poetry, alas there's not. S. Dean Jameson 19:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

He's nothing compared to Mrs. Kittridge, who wrote, upon visiting Westminster Abbey:

Holy Moses, take a look!

Brains and brawn in every nook.

I encountered her in an essay on camp, and I've got to admit, short of newspaper poets who commemorated local tragedies, she takes the prize. Geogre (talk) 21:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Ouch! McG's bad, but... sheesh! S. Dean Jameson 21:14, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

In honor of this, I went looking at the Internets, and it seems that there are far too many collectors of "bad poetry" out there. If the authors are just intraweb dweebs trying to be bad, it doesn't count! The only one that seemed to be actual bad poetry from actual publications in actual little (shall we say "very little?") magazines, was this one. What is depressing about it is that it is what one actually sees submitted. What cheers me is that I know of some people who I shall force to read it. Geogre (talk) 11:35, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Your recent edit to Veropedia

I noticed in your recent edit to Veropedia that you had removed an external link which was dead (HTTP 404 error). As noted on Misplaced Pages:Dead external links, it is best not to simply remove dead links as they often contain valuable information.

I recommend using the Link checker tool found at toolserver.org/~dispenser/view/Checklinks to tag or repair dead links. I have ran this tool already and marked the link as dead.

Hope that helps. Lightsup55 ( T | C ) 22:27, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Bishy!

I can't tell you what a pleasure it is to hear from you...and I really appreciate the trout.  :) Please feel free to stay in touch. Misplaced Pages is a lonely place without the likes of you and Geogre. Miss you both much. Yours, Lucky 6.9 in his secret guise of --PMDrive1061 (talk) 01:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC), international man of intrigue!

WP:AN/I

Thank you for your succinct and, I thought, on-target defense, especially your calm demolition of absurdity of feeling entitled because someone has the admin bit.

And if I've been rude to you, I apologize. I honestly don't recall being such, and I'd hate to think it was true, as you are an admin who as far as I'm concerned, universally has her head screwed on properly. Except for the whole "destroying Tokyo" thing, which plays hob with the property values. --Calton | Talk 14:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, Calton prejudiced favour of Tokyo, that is whole thing! 'Zilla enjoy stomping! Leave 'Zilla harmless hobby! bishzilla _ROARR!! 16:02, 2 August 2008 (UTC).

Oh dear, what a mess

Have you seen this melodrama? I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Jehochman 15:08, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Arghhhh! Hah! RFC smithereens! bishzilla _ROARR!! 16:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC).

I added a few tidbits, but it surely won't come to any sort of clear result. Jehochman 00:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

See, I was right! User:Thebainer has deleted Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Elonka. RFCs are such a waste of time. I am sorry I bothered. Jehochman 06:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

While I agree with the general principle that RfCs are a waste of time, this situation brings to light an important gap in our dispute resolution process. That is, there is no effective way of addressing patterns of behaviour that are seen over several discrete situations rather than one isolated locus. This is particularly noticeable with any RfC involving administrative actions. It gives the community no opportunity to provide feedback to the administrator about its concerns over time, meaning that the only effective way for the community to bring forward concerns about a pattern of behaviour in an administrator is for one or more community members to bring the issue to the Arbitration Committee with a Request for Arbitration. That strikes me as excessively dramatic when sometimes all that is needed is to give the admin a wake-up call. Of course, I have never seen an RfC about a specific editor or administrator really solve the highlighted problem, so I suppose it's spitting into the wind to complain about what is and isn't covered by the process. Risker (talk) 07:06, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

What was the deletion reason? Supposedly uncertified RFC? Anyway...in the case of admins up for recall, there is another rather obvious remedy, nicht wahr? I haven't followed this case to the extent of knowing whether recall would be reasonable; but I must say I was rather sorry to see Elonka's unpreparedness to acknowledge or take on board anything problematic at all about her approach. Her total defensiveness. Yet I must agree that that is what usually happens. People humbly reconsidering their own practices is the rarity. Bishonen | talk 07:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC).

• • Immediately deleting the talkpage too, before the issue is resolved? No, see, we don't do that. My pet admin has restored the talkpage for now, in order to have a venue for people to comment on a contested deletion. Do not re-delete the talk until the issue is resolved. Bishonen | talk 08:29, 4 August 2008 (UTC).

An interesting diff

I'm actually going to be a boring admin, doing the dull backlog kind of stuff. ;) And I'll still be in Category:Misplaced Pages administrators open to recall. All it will take is six good faith editors making a complaint about my use of admin tools at my talkpage, and I will voluntarily resign. But I'm not worried about it, because I'm not planning to use admin tools in controversial ways. :) --Elonka 08:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It does seem like she has said one thing and proceeded to do the exact opposite. What do you make of it? Jehochman 16:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Meh. She just assumes anyone who disagrees with her is acting in bad faith. I guess she'd say her jumping in to do an ignore all rules sort of thing and enforcing 0RR on a controversial article in which she coaches people how to act is not a controversial thing at all and that others are unfairly trying to present it as controversial. I've known her for years, and she has a remarkable inability to admit that any opinion other than her own has any possible validity. 16:40, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Or this mess?

Reading The History of Sir Charles Grandison is almost as bad as reading The History of Sir Charles Grandison. The article is mysteriously finished, DYK, and assessed high importance and B, and yet all without complying to English grammar. I don't care about its author, but if it's going to be "high" and "B," it really should read as if literate. Geogre (talk) 11:50, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I've fixed it. Now I expect to be called names for doing so. I was shocked to find out that it's a counter to Amelia. Given that the debate between those two novels, to the degree that it can be discerned, is a very thin-air discrepancy between two versions of human psychology, and given that we today reject both of them, it's hard to see it as much of an answer novel. Geogre (talk) 15:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)