Misplaced Pages

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Goodbye to many friends and acquaintences.

Neil, Ceedjee, Avruch, Tewfik, Malik Shabazz, Imad, John Carter, Itzse, Eleland, Ashley, PhilKnight, LamaLoLeshla, ColourintheMeaning, Nomoskedasticity,Pedrito, ZScarpia, Petercohen, IanPitchford, PR, dearest Tiamut, RolandR, Steve SM8900, Sposer, Nickhh, Currie and G-Dett, Pinkville, Gatoclass, Jaakobou, and many more that don't come spontaneously to mind, but should figure.

Rather than blanking this page, I think the correct procedure is to archive it.

I've always in life and in wiki, hit out hard at the slightest sign of prejudice, especially antisemitism. I dislike at the same time the use of that word with malice aforethought, carelessly, of people like myself with a critical temper. Fling it about with tactical cynicism, and the potency of the tremendous burden the term wears to attuned mind is deadened, and the concept itself becomes what real antisemites would like it to become, dead coinage, a token in the deflated currency of cheap slang matches. So over the last few days, while registering mild disgruntlement, making due warnings, and nudging a person who did, whatever he might say, insinuate that I was antisemitic (from an article I took pride in cleaning up, and where he and co,. have edited poorly), to retract. I felt it odd that this simply passed by as though it were on a par with any other casual taunt, or impromptu piece of reproving tattle, like calling me an paranoid egotist with an inferiority superiority complex, a gross infringement of I/P editing rules that was met with administrative silence, though customarily it is the sort of attack that earns its launcher immediate suspension. I was strongly tempted to ask for administrative action, but didn't because such a step might have borne with it a semblance that I was using a complaint as a pretext to get rid of Amoruso from the Lehi page (apart from my native grain, that blokes don't whinge. Which is true, but only because they can slug it out, at least verbally, which you can't on wiki). After however a further succession of remarks twisting the record and my remarks out of all recognition, I did endeavour to register that protest. But I did not know how to apply my request to the appropriate forum. Amoruso obliged me, and I added my comment on the page. It shaped up as though I, who have spent many days trying to bring evidence, sources, rationally assayed, to a difficult issue, was indeed the culprit. This together with the sudden archiving (no doubt accidental) of the whole Lehi page where our recent interchanges had taken place, and the fact that my efforts to elicit evidence for assertions were met with abstract rule-waving that ignored what is disruptive behaviour that betrays no trace of intelligent editing, broke the straw of the camel's back. Yeats was on my mind, some figure of a salmon popping into mind until I recalled the words, This is no country for old men'. This is indeed Byzantium, not Yeats's, but 'byzantine' in the sense of an infinite Kafkian labyrinth of intricately wikilawyered regulations that, fastidiously applied irrespective of the real content questions at stake, can make a mockery of anyone seriously committed to bring to this difficult area of the encyclopedia an informed, and impartial contribution, when they must edit in a milieu where scalp-taking deliquency is not infrequent. It's, on the positive side, a world for the young, their vitality, speed and high intelligence undergirds a project that appeals to me because it is financially disinterested, if not politically neutral. The old are therefore not of much use, what they have learnt in several decades, in composition, the sedulous survey of sources for relevance, and reading, is frail when face to face with, in certain editors, wilful mischief, disattention to details, endless prevarication inspissate (a word beloved of T.E.Lawrence) with vapid opinionizing, carelessness with language, riding on the back of their passionate convictions. It's been a great two years. I hope something of what I contributed will stick. A word to Ceedjee. Imad went to some trouble to get those quotes from Amin's memoirs. I hope when you get round to helping with that page, you can position it in some form. I would really have liked to have pushed through to the end, and made it finally to GA standards. But I've just erased a file of 50 pages of notes accumulated on the subject over the last year to make sure this is my last appearance here.

No comments, one way or another, please. This is not compelled (and therefore no one but myself is responsible), but a choice I've made. And Neil, if you can archive this page tomorrow morning (I stilll have a copy to make and a few other things). Best regards. Ciao wiki! Nishidani (talk) 20:00, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Replies

• Hi. Wow, hard to believe. sorry if you feel things got a bit negative. by the way people are always free to change their minds around here. Just wanted to mention that. Hope all your efforts and activities go well. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 20:44, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• I respect your decisions, but allow me to protest to this one? Differences and disputes with other editors are always going to exist, but is leaving WP the solution? In all cases, you surely have made WP a better place during your presence here, and I do hope that you will change your mind about leaving. Imad marie (talk) 21:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• You have also shown me that you are an extremely useful and informed editor, and we would be better off with you present. Having said that, I do note that the content with which you deal is among the most contentious we have, and that opinions regarding the content will often create bad blood. That does not mean that the project is not better for your presence. And, for what it's worth, I am in the process of trying to find a way to write a Wikinews article on Gabriel's Vision, based on the information you have given me. Unfortunately, I don't think I've ever written one before, so it might take a while. I would hope that you would return, as your insight and knowledge have been vital to the project in the past, and I have every reason to believe that they would be just as important in the future. John Carter (talk) 21:30, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not far off in joining you, basically because of what's going on over there and because of many similar reasons. As Misplaced Pages gets bigger and worse not better; the noose is being constantly tightened against us. To give our free labor, is a privilege we are told; Misplaced Pages is not a Democracy we are also told; what it is we aren't told. I wish I knew what will be the end with WP, and make my decision now based on that, but lacking a crystal bowl, I'll need to make a judgment call to stay or quit. Although we disagree a lot, and I don't feel that we disagree that much, because deep deep down in your soul, I know that you know I'm right; but nevertheless I found you intellectually stimulating. I think meeting you in Rome and having a long discussion is much cheaper and much more worthwhile then wasting our time here. Maybe I'll even be able to change you back into a friend of the Jews or at least get you to be neutral. Smart people, learn from the mistakes of others, ordinary people learn from their own mistakes, and fools never learn. Itzse (talk) 22:09, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't think you will find many people who are a more genuine, real friend of the Jews than Nishidani. --NSH001 (talk) 23:31, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
    • You got a point there. He did at times exclaim awe of the Jewish people, but worked untiringly for the interests of the Palestinians. I will dare say that the length he took to defend the Palestinians equaled the depth of his admiration of the Jews. Itzse (talk) 23:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• I am happy enough to comply with your request to archive this page, which I will do tomorrow (it's certainly long overdue for archiving). However I'm not going to refrain from commenting on your (I hope not permanent) departure. You are an exceptionally valuable editor. I don't have anything like your intimate acquaintance with the relevant sources on Israel-Palestine articles. Like you, I find editing I-P articles distressing, which is why I only do it intermittently. I see it as part of my wiki job to give you some moral support here, which is why your sudden departure is such a blow (and I'm well aware that I could have given you more support recently, but my wiki time is limited). You have made enormous improvements to Misplaced Pages, and it's been a pleasure reading your contributions. Best wishes, and I hope you'll be able to come back here when you feel able and ready. --NSH001 (talk) 23:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• I regret your decision, which will leave some of us even more exposed. Having gained one scalp, those apparently intent on manipulating Misplaced Pages for partisan ends may feel emboldened to target others. Your erudition, and your patience in discussion, have been exemplary, and will be greatly missed. I continue to hope that you will reconsider, though I recognise that there are more important things in life. I'm sure that you will a valuable contribution wherever you continue your work. RolandR (talk) 23:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• Salut. Ce n'est pas nécessairement une mauvaise chose de quitter wikipedia. C'est par de nombreux aspects un poison et une perte de temps incroyable. A l'occasion d'un voyage, ce serait avec plaisir que je te rencontrerais pour "refaire le monde" :-) Amitiés. Ceedjee (talk) 08:52, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

• Come back! It's getting lonely over in Jerusalem. On the other hand, maybe we could all use a break. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 19:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC) By the way, for the record, Nishidani called attention to user:Cush's anti-semitic inuendo ("Jew Crew"); when I tried to engage Cush in a dialogue, Nishidani's reaction was, "just ban him! zero tolerance for antisemitism".
• Very glad to see you back just now. Hope you stay. It's rather more boring without you!John Z (talk) 16:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Potential copyright issue

Nishidani, I notice that you have a near 1000 word quote on your user page. Aside from the fact that User page should not be used for polemical speeches (see Misplaced Pages:UP#NOT), I suspect that an extremely lengthy quotation like this is a copyright violation. Could you confirm whether or not it is, indeed, a copyright violation? Thanks. Jayjg 01:12, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The copyright is fine. "CPT material is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License."
--NSH001 (talk) 07:56, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I have added a copyright notice according to the terms of the licence.

--NSH001 (talk) 08:20, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

AN post misplaced

Hi, I've noticed that you have placed a comment sorta "out of order" on AN. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard&diff=229760669&oldid=229759781 please and see what I'm referring to. You have placed your comment inbetween an ongoing conversation. The reply below yours was intended to be after G-Dett, not yours. If you would fix it, I would appreciate it as it does mix up the reading order. —— nixeagle 12:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Attitude to RfCs

Hi Nishidani - thought you might be interested to see this comment yesterday. It can be enjoyed alone, or one might compare it with this from the day before. My well-known weaknesses as a thinker probably make it impossible for me to work out what important principles of the project are on display.

I don't think I'm canvassing, but just in case I'll send it to User:Nixeagle as well. PR 09:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Pure condescension from a pseud in Polonius's corner but

I'm breaking my rule again, but this is not editing, which I deeply enjoy, and therefore . . . Twenty years ago I spent a week arguing night and day with a friend on the proposition 'If I am hit by a thrown stone, no matter whoever threw it, I am to blame'. My friend lives in terms of this principle of absolute responsibility. I think that, philosophically, I won the argument, i.e., that it is simply not operationally true, though psychoanalytically there is a deep truth hidden there (and my friend was a diagnosed 'schizophrenic' successfully treated by psychoanalysis), in that we are by nurture and nature, driven to be complicit in the world's woes while, on a conscious plane, deploring them and disavowing our personal responsibility. Still I accept that it is a useful moral myth, worth adopting. The advice my anecdote is intended to proffer is, I hope, evident. Never allow situations to arise in which you feel you are the victim. You do, read by others, appear to seek out situations in which you are personally challenged. You will find an inexhaustible number of people ready to exploit an heroic frailty of this order. If you have an inkling, however well founded, that this is how you feel, then you'll have to work it off. Bringing it into your edits is precisely what those who would rid wiki of your presence desire. If these situations recur and you play by the standard rules, then you are indeed complicit. Use occasions, where that possiility is being prompted by provocative edits, to examine your conscience, rather than indulge in (an otherwise justifiable) sense of outrage. In a certain sense, we also construct our grievances, and when one reads a vignette like, to name one of many, 'Tagar and the Teepee Family' (in Henryk Broder’s A Jew in the New Germany 2003 pp.124-129, from memory. It deals with an American Jewish couple who settled in Hebron), one should murmur, if one reads deeply, 'I too can see myself in this', though the story invites, on one plane, the reader to view those it describes as bizarre. Take a break, reflect on your conviction of certainty, which is a dangerous thing to have, use your extensive knowledge frugally, to enrich the texts, not to bait those who bait you, and, please, lastly, try an experiment. Find two figures within Judaism or Jewry, and Palestinian culture who have yet to earn themselves the page due to them, research them, and write the two bios up with care, contemporaneously. For Palestine I suggest Yitzak Shami, the Hebronite writer. Not to convince those who hunt for your scalp to lay off. But overfocusing on I/P conflicts, and not on many other dimensions that are less conflictual, is balm to the self, or, if you will, the soul. Best wishes. It is summer, enjoy it. Apologies for the paternalism, and goodbye for now Nishidani (talk) 18:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I think I understand what you're getting at, but I don't think it has much to say in real life. For example, racists make people's lives hell, and the solution is to name and shame and protest and strike back. Yes, smug people will treat you (and your supporters) as immersed in victimhood, but it's a lot better than trying to ignore it (or avoid it and let someone else take the rap). Ditto in a place like this, nobody came to this project to cheat, nobody really likes seeing it, and most people can see it (even if they often pretend not to). Tell me what you think of this - is it a policy-compliant revert or is it IDONTLIKEIT vandalism? PR 18:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has little do do with real life. It is mostly, a drug, like the Net, except that there are many fine mainliners of splendid intelligence using it to sift wheat from the chaff. The labour of love is dyke-fingering, in the Dutch sense, naturally, against the tsunami of disinformatsiya. I have nothing against drugs of course, and have taken most that have come my way, for limited periods.

As for the antagonist you seem intent on facing down in a virtual replay of Wyatt and the Clanton gang (and you will lose, not because the victimizer will prove to be smarter, but simply because he will never be hampered by any sentimental idealism, or sense of justice, a fatal weakness in these duels), I have nothing to say except, off the cuff, I think of a remark Karl Kraus made in 1934.

But I see my advice is not understood, so, rather than pontificate orphically,...Best wishes on whatever trip you take, PR. Regards Nishidani (talk) 19:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Review of evidence

Your review of evidence on WP:AN is amazing. You've systematically destroyed pretty much every claim and every piece of innuendo against PR, while exposing those who just want him gone regardless of the cost, for what they really are. Keep up the good work! -- Mark Chovain 22:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

While I found it difficult to follow due to its sheer length. Are you sure it can't be stated as a more condensed and accessible account. El_C 05:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Issues

I have sent G-Dett some of the issues that have been raised to me and/or Ryan regarding PR's editing. I am awaiting his responses, comments, or corrections about them. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 14:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, Nishdani. As I said on the other page, I recognize and appreciate PR's intelligence, and I understand that he has a distinct point of view (which is completely acceptable, it is how that affects wiki editing that is the issue) as do many other people, myself included. What makes it somewhat more difficult for me is that my natural point of view is somewhat antipodal to PR's, so I need to be extremely careful when discussing issues with him, or about him, to ensure, both for myself and for others, that I am not letting any personal beliefs interfere with what I believe is the proper behavior on wikipedia.

At this point, PR has developed a reputation; some view it as a good reputation—others view it poorly. Regardless, his edit content and style has made him a focal point of discussion, for good or ill. That, in and of itself, is not good for the project, and I think that in order for the project, and the highly contentious issues of the I/P articles in particular, it behooves everyone to minimize issues of personality and discuss content as calmly as possible. With the now near instinctive reaction that PR engenders, that is very difficult. I had hoped that mentoring would have had some success, as it has with Jaakobu, who runs nearly every controversial edit in front of his mentors, and has demonstrated a distinct improvement in the areas of civility. I am not certain PR has done that. PR has also run through multiple mentors. Nishdani, what does that tell you?

As such, I think it would be good for everyone, including PR, if he took a vacation from I/P articles for a while. Upon return, demonstrating the ability to converse civilly with opponents, and the ability to compromise on a consensus, would go a long way in allowing whatever is in PR's past to remain quiescent.

As for possible discrepancies between how PR is treated as respects other editors, I am sure that people from the other camp have examples where they feel they were treated unequally. Moreover, as dispassionate as it may sound, it is an inherently destabilizing situation to allow improper behavior in one camp to balance improper behavior in another. Editors who create difficulty, from any ideological camp, need to be addressed on their own merits (Isarig, Zeq, etc. come to mind). I agree that other editors' behaviors should be discussed, but i do not believe that is then an exemption for PR's behavior.

I appreciate your taking the time to explain your position, I understand it, and I hope I have made my understanding of the situation as clear as I could. I would appreciate any comment or corrections of any misunderstandings that I may have. Thank you for your time and patience. -- Avi (talk) 15:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Your opinion, please. What I too extreme in my response on WP:AN? -- Avi (talk) 17:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)