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New Cold War

New Cold War (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Per WP:NOTCRYSTAL and Misplaced Pages:Avoid neologisms. This article is doing a disservice to the history of the 20th Century. Just because some TV pundits and journalists are trowing this expression around, this article is certifying that a New Cold War exists between Russia and USA. This term is being used because it is catchy but it is still a undefined and unrecognized neologism.

To call the US-Russia war of words over the South Ossetian conflict as a full blown Cold War is premature at best, Misplaced Pages is not a WP:NOTCRYSTAL. This article suffers from the same problem as the Second dot-com bubble. Such a serious conflict should be unquestionable, an unanimity among historians and clearly defined. ⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 02:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Note: Discussion has been moved to the talk page for this nomination.   user:j    (aka justen)   03:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete as neologism. Maybe someday this will be an actual term worthy of an article, but it is hardly in general use. Robert A.West (Talk) 02:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Strong keep. The article is approaching a dozen verifiable and reliable sources (and could easily hold many more) defining the term and addressing the topic, none of which involve television pundits as far as I know. At least two published books carry the same name and discuss the topic. To address your "neologism" concern and concerns of recentism, please define what you personally consider to be "new." Take a look at a Google News Archive search for the term. Prominent coverage of the topic goes back to at least 2003, with a number of notable, verifiable, reliable sourced articles from 1999 and earlier, as well. As to your personal point of view on the topic, it's not a topic for discussion here. And this isn't the particular place for you to bring up any problems you may have with Second dot-com bubble.   user:j    (aka justen)   02:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. Per WP:CRYSTAL and WP:NEO. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Keep Well referenced and references come from three nations' news organizations. Problems brought up such as referencing issues have been handled swiftly. Could be a great article if given a chance. LA (T) @ 03:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete not notable neologism almost exclusively referenced from recent media sources. 04:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Annette46 (talk • contribs)

Strong Delete A google search for transmogrifier does not show ANY media hits for the first 50 results, google search would show that it is no longer a neologism but entering common speech as the best descriptive word for a particular concept. OTOH "New Cold War" means too many different things to different people. A strong notable contender for this article would be the book "New Cold War" publ 1970 auth "Edward Crankshaw" (many many google hits, its even on googlebooks) which speaks of a "new" cold war between Moscow and Pekin. I just altered my "vote" to Strong Delete Annette46 (talk) 17:06, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete The neologism does not seem to be notable. However the topic of Russian-American relations in the 21st Century is, and the expression could be mentioned there. (p.s. "World War Four" gets some use too.)Steve Dufour (talk) 05:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete Neologism is not well enough established. Someday, we may all agree that there is a new cold war, but that is by no means certain yet. Delete per WP:CRYSTAL and WP:NEO. lk (talk) 06:10, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Keep I've seen the term "new cold war" or "revived cold war" in an uncountable number of both western and English-Russian media, as well as on political talk shows etc.. It's well sourced and notable, it should stay. LokiiT (talk) 09:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete this term is frequently used to describe a future US-China "cold war", which is completely different from a US-Russia one. 70.51.11.210 (talk) 10:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Keep This will be a major article given some time, also per and per clearly notable. Hobartimus (talk) 11:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Strong keep. It is clear that, despite a considerable cooling off in international politics over the course of the 90s, the trend has been reversed and a New Cold War is very much alive and well. While the article goes a bit far in suggesting the SCO and CSTO are the red to NATO's blue, there is notable coverage of the "New Cold War". Do a google search. 62.72.110.11 (talk) 13:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete - You'd have to have had your head in a bucket not to notice the international tension in the past fortnight. But that's not the point. The point is whether there are sufficient reliable sources to suggest that the term 'New Cold War' is an accepted description of that situation. I don't think so, personally. Not that long ago, most usage of the term related to relations between China and various other nations. I'm just not sure that, as presented, the term is notable enough. AlexTiefling (talk) 14:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete - such things as "cold war" are the terms used by historians to label roughly some time periods on the grounds of a consensus among the academicians, usually many years after the period has started. Mass-media labeling does not apply. --CopperKettle (talk) 15:02, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Let's compare:

• Cold War - Soviet Union by force changes the regimes on the occupied territories to a communist ones. Now: Russia has market economy and Russian forces stationed in Georgia in the days of the Rose Revolution did nothing to prevent the power change.
• Cold War - Soviet Block citizens are prohibited from leaving the Soviet sphere of influence. Now: Russia witnessed a huge surge in the international tourism of its citizens.
• Cold War - wars-by-proxy in Korea and Vietnam, with each side trying to drastically change the economic and social ways of the country. Now: no radical changes, no ideological fight. --CopperKettle (talk) 15:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Transwiki and delete This is (as, to its credit, the article says) "term used to describe the perceived..." etc. It belongs on Wiktionary, not here, until it either acquires an actual (non-WP:CRYSTAL) subject, or at a minimum a recognized movement distinct from neoconservatism. The only substance here is two books with this title, heirs to a long-standing tradition of political prophecy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:05, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• support - I support Septentrionalis' proposal. That would be a fair compromise.⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 18:55, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. —  user:j    (aka justen)   17:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. —  user:j    (aka justen)   17:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Georgia (country)-related deletion discussions. —  user:j    (aka justen)   17:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. —  user:j    (aka justen)   17:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Strong keep. Much well-sourced encyclopedic information here; plenty of sources to show that it's not "just" a neologism. Maybe would be better renamed or merged into a more comprehensive article at some point in the future, but deletion is way over the top.--Kotniski (talk) 17:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Keep It's clearly been called a New Cold War before this, which suggest the article should be redone and possibly modified to include other uses such as that in relation to China or Iran. All in the term does have a lot of usage in relation to Russia, seemingly more than in relation to other countries, and so there is very good reason for keeping it. None of the Misplaced Pages policies pointed out have any relevance here. This isn't making a prediction of the future and it's not really a neologism. In general this article meets all the needed requirements for an article and I expect, even without consideration of historical mentions of a New Cold War, the current situation will be increasingly called a New Cold War, even if I personally disagree with that characterization. Even if this is later given some different name the fact this term has been so widely used to describe the existing state of affairs is of notable importance to have an article on.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 20:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Strong Delete. Neologism. And it's been used in multiple other instances, such as to describe the rise of religious nationalism. A wikipedia article about the phrase "new cold war" would have to include multiple instances of its usage, not just the one described here. Besides, this is mostly a WP:SYN violation. csloat (talk) 21:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Strong keep. This is a neologism, but it's not our neologism -- it's already being discussed, and as referenced there are two books on the subject. I think many of the arguments for deletion here are attempts to whitewash Russia, similar to what we're seeing at 2008 South Ossetia war, International reaction to the 2008 South Ossetia war, and so on (though it's worse on their talk pages, now that the articles are semi-protected and no longer exposed to anonymous IPs). Moreover, I do not think that User:EconomistBR, who created this proposal, can be relied on to be objective on this matter. He claimed that this article was an op-ed, despite the plain "News" on the top of it -- because agreeing with Human Rights Watch that the Russians' militias are burning and looting was unfriendly to Russia. ExOttoyuhr (talk) 21:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete as ill-defined neologism. I actually own both the Mackinnon and Lucas books and while they have the same title they are about very different subjects. Mackinnon's book is about the color revolutions (he wanted to name it "Revolution Inc" but was shot down by his publisher), while Lucas is an "old" Cold War theoretician who never stopped thinking of Russia as an evil empire. And while both books discuss East-West energy politics (and the current conflict with Ossetia also involves East-West energy politics), THAT subject could just as easily fall under the neologism of "new great game" -- ~~ Katsam (talk) 22:46, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Delete On above grounds. such a war does not exist, the map is made of Bs alliances with Nato being the only one that truely is realistic. When such a thing as a NCW start up, make the article, until then, its speculation and crystaling. --Jakezing (talk) 00:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• Strong keep. The Cat is out of the Bag already with 507,000 Results for "New Cold War" in Google search. I don't see why we shouldn't have a piece about such phenomenon in Misplaced Pages than. Besides, the concept of Cold War is not a neologism by itself, so adding a new qualifier as per media reports doesn't make for a whole lot of difference. User:J makes a few other, similarly good points in this discussion (see above). --Poeticbent talk 02:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

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