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Move proposal

• Move to Patbingsu -- standard revised spelling; no standard pre-existing romanization. Badagnani 04:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Move/Rename

Caspian has suggested Patbingsu be moved or renamed to "Bingsu". I believe bingsu mostly refers to the shaved ice (an allusion to the Korean term for iceberg or something) and bingsu is then modified as needed, ie Pat (red bean) bingsu. But there are other xxx-bingsus. Gwa-il bingsu for example. Anyway, I'm friendly to that idea, although it would take a restructuring of the write up (a task I'm happy to do). I'll assume Caspian has called for a vote and my vote is Rename. Mindme (talk) 15:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Personality warning

The previous two images are not only distracting from the main subject, but also I've always wondered as to whether the photographer got a permission to publish the girls on Misplaced Pages. I don't believe so on the latter. Usually gallery section is avoided under Misplaced Pages image policy, and the article has already one photo to feature the main subject, so please do not add blindly them to the article.--Caspian blue (talk) 22:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It's a good question. Have those people objected to our use of their photos? Badagnani (talk) 22:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

We don't know about that until asking such question. If I were one of them, I feel annoyed at it. --Caspian blue (talk) 22:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

If they object, we can remove them. Badagnani (talk) 22:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Then, you can ask the photographer about it since you're so eager to include them. Aside from their permission, the images are like cheesy-toothpaste ads. Patbingsu they're holding look like a second subject.--Caspian blue (talk) 22:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It's fine for you to have that opinion. However, those photos were already placed on a public website called Flickr, probably by the friends of the subjects. Badagnani (talk) 22:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you direct me where you see the images at Flickr? Because I transferred the images which were originally uploaded to ENGLISH Misplaced Pages (here) to Commons. The images pages do not have any flickr site. Please do not make such thing up.--Caspian blue (talk) 22:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it's been removed, but this appears to be the same person. Badagnani (talk) 22:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Whenever I transfer images to Commons, I check every detail of the history and uploaders if their images are missing within Misplaced Pages, but I could not see them being published at Flickr info. Besides, the image you're referring to is "All right reserved". Please do not insist such thing this time. Why do not you ask about your inquiry to the photographer?--Caspian blue (talk) 23:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Since it's clear that the subject is a friend of the photographer, it's fine. Badagnani (talk) 23:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

You're not the friend of the photographer. --Caspian blue (talk) 23:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

What's a personality warning? Do the images violate any published wiki criteria? If so, please link the policy. If not, instead of unilaterally deciding to remove the images, let's subject this to a vote. Vote keep or remove and then let's abide by the vote. Alternatively, since I've released these images, taken in a public place, to the public domain, feel free to crop as appropriate. Mindme (talk) 03:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/Commons:Photographs_of_identifiable_people

Here are the link. You know every images have to be re-usable for even commercial usages except fair use images. Honesty speaking, the images are too small to be cropped (I tried and the cropped hands are more bothering) and not look good to illustrate the subject. The images are alway stored on Commons and not gone forever. So if someone browses the Commons site, and think that the images are good for his or her usage, the images would be good for them. However, better images are preferred over some images, small, or bad images. Well, vote would be needed if you really want to. I don't believe they're illustrative.--Caspian blue (talk) 03:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

They are good to keep in the Gallery. Badagnani (talk) 04:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course, you have been always a "keepist" and "opposist" to my edit. I will raise this matter to WP:FOOD for !vote after I would add other images (on going OTRS process).--Caspian blue (talk) 04:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

That is untrue; many of your edits (perhaps most) are excellent. Badagnani (talk) 04:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

!Vote for the (future) gallery

I've cropped the images. Vote keep or delete based on the new images. In terms of the images not being illustrative, if you read the captions on both, they demonstrate interesting variations (one uses ice cream, another uses cherry tomatoes). That seems manifestly illustrative. If you have an alternative definition of "illustrative" and how these photos with captions fail your definition, I'd like to see it. You don't like hands, well, that's a personal opinion and further reason to vote. I, of course, vote Keep. Mindme (talk) 12:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• Mindme's cropped image 1 Mindme's cropped image 1
• Mindme's cropped image 2
• Patbingsu
• Patbingsu
• Patbingsu
• Fruit bingsu 1
• Fruit bingsu 2
• Green tea bingsu
• Green tea bingsu
• Yogurt bingsu

I have more images, but the above are pending for final confirmations by OTRS. That's why I did not put them to the article. Not only that, I've got permissions on bingsu images from 3 more individual flickr editors. I'm waiting for them to answer which copyright tag between CC-BY and CC-BY-SA they prefer and want me to put on their images at Misplaced Pages. Well, we have more selections for the subject. So your cropped pictures are not much desirable any more. Besides, you gave an absurd warning to Kbarends (talk · contribs) who fairly edited Korean cuisine related articles on English and Dutch Misplaced Pages. That is disruptive. --Caspian blue (talk) 14:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The removals were disruptive because they illustrated (with good captions) various types of patbingsu. All of the above seem good for the gallery, if they have good captions describing the differences and uniqueness of each type shown. User:Kbarends was probably contacted off-Wiki by a WP editor asking for "help" in deleting those, something that is frowned upon. Badagnani (talk) 19:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, I don't think so. Such threat and insistent "nevertheless, my images should be included" attitudes are very disruptive. He is against the "consensus" or ongoing discussion". Besides, Lotteria does not sell bingsu in neither such the glass, but also in shape. People who does not know the market of South Korea, will be fooled. The caption is not believable as well. The pictures themselves should be distinguashable at a first class, so I do not agree with any of your opinion on this. Still, the cropped bodies are more conspicuous than the main subject. --Caspian blue (talk) 20:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm really struggling to understand your english, Caspian. Are you saying my photo of patbingsu from Lotteria is not patbing su from Lotteria and I'm being misleading with my caption? Also, I warned kbarends not to delete photos as he deleted them once after the photos were up for discussion. It is disruptive to make unilateral editing choices while an item is under discussion. No? It's fair to warn him that further edits would be considered vandalism. I think it is good to have various pictures of patbingsu, which is my intent. Your gallery is good, albeit I would argue maybe too big. I don't know if we need 9 photos of patbingsu. 3 or 4 is good enough to establish visually there is a variety. My pictures in your gallery do look out of place and in that context I'd be friendly to deleting my photos if you can acquire the permissions to mount your photos. But as I note, as delicious as patbingsu is, it probably doesn't need such a huge photo gallery. Mindme (talk) 20:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ha, rather, I have been struggling to understand your insistence. I don't believe your first picture is from Lotteria. The fast food chain offers patbingsu in a paper bowl just like McDonalds, and Burger King. The removal is neither disruptive but also vandalism. Your false accusation based on your "own judgment" is nothing but a personal attack to him and me. Once any contents are contested, such info should be taken out first, so your edits are also unilateral in disregard with the ongoing discussion. Why would I asked more than 6 people for getting permissions on the above images? I do not believe Misplaced Pages is a repository,and images or contents once attached to articles are eternally reserved in any case. Always better and newer contents can be replaced with outdated, bad ones. I have not said that all images that I brought in here should be included to gallery. I present wider selections than your cropped images. Misplaced Pages Commons can hold all images, so "clicking Commons template" is enough for anyone who wants to see more images than several images on the article. Once again, I don't think your pictures are good enough for gallery section. --Caspian blue (talk) 21:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ummm. You are aware Lotteria, in an effort to reduce waste, offers glass bowls and dishes to diners who eat in? Hence, at many Korean locations if you eat in, you will get your patbingsu in a glass dish? Also if you look closely at the red plastic chair you will see the top of Lotteria's italicized L and the top left edge of the O. If you are aware of any other chain in Korea that would fit this design on the chair, please link it. As well note the similarity of the chair in my photo to the chair in this photo at Lotteria. So, before you further libel me, I would suggest a bit of research. Whether you think my photos are appropriate or not is merely one vote. Yours. I've called for a vote. Maybe you should respect that instead of deciding for all of us and taking action. Regarding what photos should be used for informative purposes, I would use the first paragraph in the w/u as a guide. A version with ice cream, a version with yogurt, a version with neither. I like the photo of mine that shows a version with cherry tomatoes as visitors to Korea might be rather surprised to find Koreans treat cherry tomatoes like a fruit and one might find it on their patbingsu. As well the claim that Koreans treat tomatoes like fruit is made in this w/u and could use some support. I've posted the photo to confirm the use of tomatoes as a fruit. Remove the photo and we'll need to slap a "citation needed" on that claim. No? And the rest of your english I can only guess at so I'd rather deal with this claim I've mislabeled a photograph. Mindme (talk) 21:59, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ho, your English is soooooooo good for "communication". I've seen all the same pattern by several individuals (including indef.blocked trolls) whenever they lose their ground and then seek personal attacks as a childish retaliation. At least you understand my writing, so we're "talking" here? Hmmm.. your captions and the section of the Lotteria article do not have any "verifiable citation". It is okay for you to use "Korean sources" if you can't find any reliable English one, especially regarding "patbingsu" since you're residing in South Korea. Japanese sources are also welcome. Your English is too good to understand the core policies like WP:V, WP:CITE, WP:CIVIL that you're ignoring. Your images had been served for the article because we know the idiom like "better than nothing". Maybe you should respect that instead of deciding for all of us and taking action. --> Oh, you? I like the photo of mine that shows a version with cherry tomatoes as visitors to Korea might be rather surprised to find Koreans treat cherry tomatoes like a fruit and one might find it on their patbingsu. --> Isn't this your own POV, citation please? If resorting to such attacks is your strategy, I would say Misplaced Pages is not a right place for you. The Lotteria image that you're linking is irrelevant. I have no intention to spend my time looking into bad images.--Caspian blue (talk) 23:17, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Look. You removed the photos. I came to the discussion and saw another user supported putting them back. Clearly I'm in support of that. That's 2 against 1. Restoring the images was warranted. You pointed out they might be in violation of a wiki policy so I modified them. I then made the reasonable request calling for a vote. Some user who has never contributed to this w/u parachuted in and deleted the images despite them being under discussion. I pointed out to him that the images were under discussion and further unilateral action would be reported as vandalism. You then offered several images in a gallery as an alternative. Of that I was supportive and noted that my cropped images did not fit well with the images in the gallery and sided with your gallery suggestion. We both agreed 9 images were too many and I suggested criteria by which we should select images. I also noted my images added important illustrative information to the w/u. You claimed they didn't. I pointed out they did and asked you to define "illustrative". You failed to support your first assertion and then moved the goal post and accused me of adding misleading captions. Your reasoning was lotteria only serves patbinsu in takeout. This only revealed your general ignorance of how Lotteria serves food to diners these days. And yet you want us to take you as an authority? I've shown your claims of mislabeling simply don't hold water. Instead of withdrawing your libel, you're refusing to even consider the support for the claim. I have to ask you, what substantive information have you contributed to this w/u other than deleting an image? If you look at the w/u history, I've added information and tracked down important references. Other than libeling a user who has contributed research and text to this w/u, you've done very little. So excuse me if I don't bow to your judgment, preferring to bow the will of the majority. This is something you seem unwilling to do and keep taking unilateral action. I'm now requesting page protection. And yes sorry your english is very very broken and hard to follow. I'm simply warning you I can only guess at a lot of what you're saying. Mindme (talk) 01:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Withdrawing libel? Your false accusations and ad hominen attacks are inexcusable. You seem to be an English teacher, so deal with it unless you're teaching me a free lesson. Two people are against your inclusion of your images because the better image comes up and yours have several problems, personality right warning, image size, relevant content. The removal is a good decision in light of the flaws of the images and is far from your own interpretation of vandalism. Such false accusation is just degrading your credibility. I bet your request for page protection would be ignored. You're only contributing the article while I and Kbarends have contributed to almost all of Korean cuisine related articles. Your mention of the cherry tomato is one amusing case to know how you're ignorant of Korean cuisine in general. Bingsu are largely divided into patbingsu, coffee bingsu, fruit bingsu, green tea bingsu etc, and such small garnish is not a unique feature. You still fail to bring citations for your claim, and WP:AGF is only valid for civil and moderate editors. Since the new images are confirmed by OTRS, I could add captions to increase "their value". Your unwarranted warning is I consider "vandalism" and "personal attack", so do not do that.--Caspian blue (talk) 02:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I guess Caspian blue didn't know that, but of course none of us is perfect (and Confucius said that those of us who admit we don't know everything are nobler than those who never admit such). That's what these "Discussion" pages are for, for us to confer and combine our information and knowledge to produce the best article possible. There just isn't room for rudeness or blanking without consensus, which are not part of our Misplaced Pages process, which favors collaborative interactions where we all work with and help one another, without sarcasm or rudeness (or implying that other editors are lying about their contributions). I think all the photos seem good; it's best to use the photos, with good captions, to illustrate various types of this dessert. Badagnani (talk) 22:13, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe your first picture is from Lotteria. The fast food chain offers patbingsu in a paper bowl just like McDonalds, and Burger King. -- Caspian blue

Compare:

http://www.gokorea.info/nonrand/600patbingsoo.2jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Crop_Korean_dessert-Patbingsu-01.jpg

Hmmm? Notice Lotteria on the receipt? Notice how similar the bowls are? Notice how similar the toppings are? Caspian do you still believe I've mislabeled the image? Will you withdraw your claim? Mindme (talk) 01:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I have not said that this "is not Lotteria"'s in an assertive tone. Well, you're native English speaker, so how couldn't you distinguish the sentence, "I don't believe" from the former? Will you first withdraw your personal attacks based on my English? Such childish behaviors do not make you logical.--Caspian blue (talk) 02:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Does the above imply that only Caspian blue is allowed (because of cultural differences) to behave with extreme rudeness on Discussion pages, but other editors are not allowed to defend themselves when this occurs? I don't believe any of us should act in such a manner, as it is un-Wikipedian. Please address the actual issues at hand and refrain from editing in a rude or antagonistic manner. At the very least, it is not an efficient manner of editing, and it is absolutely against our Wikipedian ethos. Badagnani (talk) 02:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

So you're supporting Mindme's extreme rudeness and personal attacks such as ridiculing my English. I've only been attacked as such by handful of users here such as Sennen goroshi, Lucywithdada or blocked trolls. You have shown no good example of civility and good faith. I have been hurt by your rude manners (blanking your hidden remarks) and absurd vandalism warnings (because I took them to talk pages). Please be a good Wikipedian if you want to lecture me. Besides, more images in a bigger size are presented and I don't see why the cropped images should be kept.--Caspian blue (talk) 02:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I asked a simple question. Badagnani (talk) 02:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

That is not a simple question. You clearly attacked me from the first sentence. What have you done to the article and this talk page? --Caspian blue (talk) 02:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

New Images

I've replaced the patbingsu with hands images with patbingsu images of the same illustrative images without hands. Is there any issue with these images? Mindme (talk) 10:52, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Is one image from the link that you gave me yesterday? Is the site and photo yours? You seem to forget the rest of pictures. We're still on vote.--12:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The photo is mine. You'll notice I linked it initially from my own website. What would you like to vote for? I agree with Badagnani we should have one with green tea, and yogurt. As noted one with ice cream and one with no dairy topping is also good. I've put up one with ice cream from a major chain in Korea. I've also put up one without any dairy topping (found in a place in coex). If you have photos you think are better, then link them and let's vote. I vote, at this point, Keep both my photos. Mindme (talk) 12:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Could you tell me why I and others have to follow your "rule" all the time? You made me to vote the silly poll and to bring in images, but keep changing your setting for crediting your photos anyhow. You also demand me to research something beyond original descriptions of your photos. All images should be on a same guideline. ; Is the photo relevant, diverse, informative for the subject? The images that I've brought up are to give people more choice. Besides, at three people are not sufficient for "vote".--Caspian blue (talk) 13:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not asking you to follow my rules. I'm suggesting anyone interested in this write up to vote. I'm making some suggestions as to content. You're free to make your own suggestions. My images sat there for several months uncontested. You had a problem with them. Badagnani and I expressed different opinions. I've modified them twice now to match what I glean is your criteria for satisfactory images. If you do not believe my photos are "relevant, diverse, informative" then state your argument. The only thing I've seen out of you is a false and misinformed claim about Lotteria patbingsu. This for example is a good image to use for green tea. However I have to point out it has human hands in it. You noted "I tried and the cropped hands are more bothering". Here is an example where your poor english is forcing me to guess at what you want. I read this as you don't like images cropped but still show human hands in the photo. Mindme (talk) 13:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Still, you're resorting to personal attacks and WP:OWN attitude. You prove me you're doing wrong on policies, that's why you were blocked yesterday as gaming the Wiki system. Your pictures are not much different from each other and not so great in term of diversity. Well, all images that I brought is for broad choices, unlike your attitude like "I have to use my picture". Why don't you spell English correctly instead of "english" before mocking my English? --Caspian blue (talk) 14:02, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

My pictures are different from each other. One has ice cream. One has no dairy topping but tomatoes, a topping many North Americans would consider unusual (note the most recent reference). Other than merely asserting they do not represent diversity and salient differences, could you state why you believe this? Yes, you have suggested many images. Hence this is why I'm suggesting we vote on which images to use. I'm not sure why you're not getting this part. I've voted for my two images and your green tea image, despite the fact it seems to violate your "no cropped hands" rule. If you're insulted by my factual claim your english is poor, then I have no control of that. As I've stated several times already, your broken english sentences make it very difficult for native speakers like me to interpret your arguments and desires. I can only repeat I have to guess at what you want. Mindme (talk) 14:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

You keep continuing this discussion with such lower level of attitude. You have not voted for which images should be used; just trying to keep your images in support for your credit. As you know this article is not only about patbingsu, but also other varieties. I believe bingsu is more appropriate title for the article. As I previously said, bingsu are largely divided by red bean, fruit, green tea, cherry, coffee, yogurt and topping ice cream on the dish is optional and differs from shops. That's why I collect images of varieties unlike you. The picture of the green tea bingsu is your another string to attack? As I said, your photos are dominated by the conspicuous cropped hands in a "small size". Didn't I tell you that I tried to crop the images for better presentation? Your pictures still do not excel other images in quality and relation of diversity. As for the continued mockery, your such personality does not make the discussion healthy.--Caspian blue (talk) 14:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll look forward to your vote on this matter. See below. Mindme (talk) 14:57, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

They look lovely. Can it be explained what the one without ice cream has in it? Do we have one with yogurt? And the green tea will be good to show as well. Are you able to take more Korean cuisine-related photos if we need them at other articles? I'm particularly interested in the Korean liquors, such as those made from flowers and herbs, many of which can't be found outside Korea. Badagnani (talk) 11:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Let me look at what I have and I'll add the items to the commons and then message you on your talk page with the links. Feel free to use them where you wish. Of course I'll put them in the public domain. Mindme (talk) 13:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Vote

• Picture 1: Lotteria patbingsu Picture 1: Lotteria patbingsu
• Picture 2: patbingsu without dairy but cherry tomatoes Picture 2: patbingsu without dairy but cherry tomatoes
• Picture 3: IceBerry Patbingsu
• Picture 4: Patbingsu
• Picture 5: IceBerry Patbingsu
• Picture 6: Fruit bingsu 1
• Picture 7: Fruit bingsu 2
• Picture 8: Green tea bingsu
• Picture 9: Red Mango's green tea bingsu
• Picture 10: Red Mango's yogurt bingsu
• Picture 11:
• Picture 12:
• Picture 13:
• Picture 14:
• Picture 15:
• Picture 16:
• Picture 17:
• Picture 18: Ingredients Picture 18: Ingredients

I vote we incorporate Picture 1, Picture 2, Picture 13, and Picture 10. 1 because it's from a major restaurant chain in Korea, a place where English speakers might first try patbignsu. 2 because it not only lacks the dairy topping but it has what many North Americans would consider an unusual topping. 13 because I thought it looked most like green tea. 10 because it appears to be the only photo with a yogurt topping. I suggest we move these four photos into a gallery section with informative captions. Please vote on how many photos you wish to see appear in the body (one, two, three, four, twenty) and which photos (ideally from the gallery above). I think a week is sufficient for the vote so August 28 we can tally and make the appropriate changes. I would also suggest moving picture 3 into the food box as I think this photo represents canonical patbingsu. The current image doesn't really show any or much red bean. Given pat is in the dish's name, it might be good to have one dripping with pat as the lead photo. Mindme (talk) 14:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

This seems fine. Regarding red beans, I think the photo in the lead has a scoop of ice cream that is made of red beans. Can you please address requests for info at your photos' talk pages? Badagnani (talk) 17:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

No probs. I listed them in point format. Check and see if that's what you want. Mindme (talk) 17:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Excellent! Badagnani (talk) 18:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there one among your selections including yogurt? Badagnani (talk) 23:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm wondering as to how you would react to see this newly added images and the retouched photo of green tea bingsu that you childishly attacked me. You also inserted a blog source for the claim, that cherry tomato as if the blogger's point of view is representative. (using blog source is a no-no for citing) You can access many Korean sources, so why don't you use them? As I've been collecting more images, I don't see why your images should be kept on the article. You can add your photos to Commons:Bingsu, so you can contribute and be credited for your good works.--Caspian blue (talk) 05:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The zenkimchi blog is rather notable, having been cited by the New York Times and a major Korean daily. The author is also the food writer for the Korea Herald. The author is a host of the SeoulPodcast and a miele guide judge. He is, in my view, an authority on Korean food and worth citing. Anyway, vote or don't vote. Collect all the photos you want. Maybe me or Badagnani will change our mind based on your new images. And actually I have. For the green tea images I like your new one, image 13. Alright, so far we have two votes. As I stated before, I'll look forward to your vote or sensible contributions like the suggestion above to rename this w/u to simply bingsu. I've given a lot of ground in this, changing images, uploading new images, willing to bow to a majority vote, setting up a vote. Time I think for you to get off the pot. Vote. Mindme (talk) 13:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Kindly moderate your tone. Badagnani (talk) 05:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Given all insults by Mindme yesterday, I really moderate my tone.--Caspian blue (talk)

The last image (picture 18), with the ingredients, is a good one too. I would propose adding that to accompany a new section called something like "Making It At Home" and note Korean grocery stores usually stock all the ready made ingredients during summer and run that picture. Mindme (talk) 13:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

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