Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:44, 26 August 2008

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Russo-Georgian War. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Russo-Georgian War at the Reference desk.

NEW ARTICLE TITLE? Following multiple discussions, comments are invited at Talk:2008 South Ossetia war/Article_title.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Russo-Georgian War. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Russo-Georgian War at the Reference desk.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Abkhazia Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Abkhazia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Abkhazia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AbkhaziaWikipedia:WikiProject AbkhaziaTemplate:WikiProject AbkhaziaAbkhazia Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale. Ossetia (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ossetia, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.OssetiaWikipedia:WikiProject OssetiaTemplate:WikiProject OssetiaOssetia Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Georgia (country) Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Georgia (country), a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Georgia and Georgians on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Georgia (country)Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Georgia (country)Template:WikiProject Georgia (country)Georgia (country) Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Russia Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. International relations Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Military history: Russian & Soviet This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces: /  Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force

A news item involving Russo-Georgian War was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 12 August 2008.

What to do and what not to do on this article

Do

• Be neutral (scrupulously so)
• Be verifiable.
• Be collaborative

Don't

• Don't be original.
• Don't edit war
• Don't soapbox.
• Don't randomly stick tags everywhere. {{sofixit}}, if you please.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.

POW's

Will someone edit the casualties section of the infobox, it should be put in the Russian part of the casualties section 19 missing (5 captured), as the reference I provided confirms that 5 soldiers or pilots were captured, also the given reference and plus this one confirm that 15 georgian soldiers were captured during the conflict in South Ossetia and another 22 were captured today in Poti so it should be put in the georgian casualty section something like this: 215 soldiers killed, 300 missing and 37 captured, based on these two references. Will anyone make this edit?

== Number of Casulties ==--Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 02:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)--Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 02:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia states 65 dead russians, 121 wounded 8 tanks and 2 aircrafts lost. They state, 4000 ( of 2000 georgian soldiers who took part in the operations ) were killed.

Of course, much more than 2000 georgian troops were commited - even reservists saw some action (mostly being bombed while moving as reinforcements out of Gori). 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Rocki tunnel, Georgian Battalion shot the whole ammunition at every russian tank that left :the tunnel, at least, 12 destroyed. ( crew: 48 dead ), before leaving

Stupid lies, both ends of Roki tunnel are being heavily guarded all the time, and were never challenged. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Moreover, the protection of the Roki tunnel was the more important task for ossetians than the defence of their own capital. "Unofficial" picture of that war shows, that the most part of ossetian forces was used to stop georgians whose went in the direction of this tunnel, so in Tskhinval (it's the ossetian name, Tskhinvali - the georgian one... And what name should we use?..), the second target of georgian forces, defence forces have been presented mainly by ossetian militia (russian term "opolchenie") and peacekeepers. (Pubkjre (talk) 16:12, 24 August 2008 (UTC))

that "-i" is nominative case ending in georgian language. Ossetians don't use it. On russian maps, however, it can be spelled either way. 195.218.210.138 (talk) 23:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

"Not "stupid lies", but artillery. The Russians also suffered losses as they came through the Roki Tunnel, which connects South Ossetia to the neighboring region of North Ossetia in Russia proper. Russian national security analysts said there was no air cover to protect Moscow’s forces in their first minutes outside the safety of the mountain tunnel. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/world/europe/17military.html?em=&pagewanted=print Georgian artillery was surpressed by the heavy bombing only later. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 20:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Nothing but speculation w/o any specific details and specific references in this article. And artillery "hitting every tank" with indirect fire is definitely stupid. 195.218.210.138 (talk) 23:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Kodori heights, georgian regiment held every position against 5 russo-abkhaz attacks before retreating back to Tbilisi. 584 abkhaz dead, 96 russian dead. 1 Grad destroyed, 12 armored vehicles destroyed ( crew: at least 24 dead )

Abkhaz losses - 1 dead, 1 wounded. Georgian losses also presumed to be small - they fled the area without hardly any fight after their main ammo depot was destroyed by abkhaz artillery. Russian troops didn't participate. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, abkhazian side claims that all military operations, include air strikes, in Kodori were performed only by abkhazian forces, without russians. Sometimes georgians claims that russians bombs Kodori, after that abkhazians officials says that those air strikes were done by abkhazian air forces. I think that it's possible to found sources with such abkhazian claims... (Pubkjre (talk) 16:12, 24 August 2008 (UTC))

Gurja, GRU elite special forces knocked out when engaged and ambushed by georgian :commandos Casulties: 45 of 80 russian dead, 2 georgian commandos.

Another fantasy with no proof whatsoever. There is, however, a video of 22 corpses of georgian commandos rotting in some forest area near Tskhinval. Georgian government was offered to retrieve them after the ceasefire, but gave no answer. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Battle for 12 villages around Tskhinvali, heavy fights, high losses on both sides. Casulties: 125 georgian, 145 russian. ( Disadvantage for russian forces )

Russian column passed georgian villages unopposed all the way to Tskhinval. The only somewhat stiff resistance was met around Zemo-Nicozi. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

1st battle of Tskhinvali: Georgian artillery destroyed ossetian positions around the capitol, :200-1000 ossetian dead, Ossetian tanks and armor do not exist anymore. Georgian troops :enter the city, loosing 4 T-72 MBT's. Heavy fights in the city. 45 georgian dead 3 tanks lost, 300 ossetian dead 8 tanks given up, 18 :russian peacekeepers dead 150 wounded, retreat of Russo-Ossetian Forces.

Ossetians didn't have any tanks in Tskhinval. And before the fight, all of ossetian armor was kept locked by peacekeepers, as previous agreements dictate. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

2st battle of Tskhinvali: Russia advances against Tskhinvali, Georgian positions repell 7 attacks destroying 8 russian T-72 MBT's ( crew: 32 dead ) and killing 36 russians . Russian Air Force bombs armor and positions in Tskhinvali. 18 dead georgians. Georgia leaves Tskhinvali because of heavy bombardement and ceasefire agreement.

8 russian T-72 MBTs carry 24 crew members, not 32. I.e. crew of T-72 is only 3 men, not 4 ones like in many other MBTs. So, a source for such information is at least "strange". (Pubkjre (talk) 20:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC))

Yeah, this kid is totally unaware of even such basic facts, and still tries to fool us adults here :) 195.218.210.190 (talk) 01:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian Air Force 7 days bombardament kills 42 georgian soldiers and destroys up to 20 :tanks and armor in Georgia. Georgian Special Forces and Units shoot down 22 russian SU-24/SU-25/MiG-29 and one Tu-22 with Stingers and light AA systems. Heavy AA batteries ( like S-120 ) were never used in this 7 days.

The entire "war" lasted only 5 days. Besides, last georgian radar was knocked out on the third night. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Gori: 1000 russian airborne troops try to take Gori by surpirse attack from sky. Operation failed. Number of Casulties unknown, Georgians still controlled the city. Russian armor advances from Tskhinvali to Gori. Georgian troops leave the city to show the rest of :the world, what are the true interests of Putin. Taking over whole Caucasia.

Battle of Gori: georgian troops see their Magnificient Supreme Commander scared of some unknown threat (a ghost perhaps?), panic and run all the way to Tbilisi, leaving huge stockpiles of weapons and abandoned vehicles behind them. :) Russian air force spared their sore asses because fleeing troops mixed with refugees on the road. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

During the ceasefire agreement a convoy of georgian soldiers and special units were :ambushed by russian tanks and armors, leaving 18 dead georgians and 3 destroyed georgian :Toyota SF jeeps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL (talk • contribs) 11:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Ehm, and what are the sources you used? Alæxis_¿question? 11:07, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, as of now, no sources are available for such details. But what ComanL wrote here largely coincides with my own sources among the Georgian military and Russian journalists. There are some other things I would like to add to the description of the Russia-Georgia war, but I can not obviously provide published sources. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 11:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The above estimate of 444 (assuming all downed Russian pilots as well as the "1000 airborne troops over Gori" survived) exceeds the official Georgian estimate of 400, so a source would be most interesting to see. It would also be nice to trace the Russian claim of 4000 Georgian casualties to a Russian source. --Illythr (talk) 13:24, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. Still, I see too many POVs "Georgian troops leave the city to show the rest of :the world, what are the true interests of Putin. Taking over whole Caucasia" "Georgia leaves Tskhinvali because of heavy bombardement and ceasefire agreement" and not a single reliable source. Also, I see the user having a pro-georgian POV in some articles. It would be interesting if it could be proven, though--Jaimevelasco (talk) 17:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I also see these problems but as long as no references whatsoever are provided there's no point in arguing about them. Alæxis_¿question? 18:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I want to see CormanL's sources. However, his "inside sources" seem to mesh with rumors of something of a Russian military debacle that I've heard (along the lines of thirty Russian armored vehicles destroyed and hundreds dead in the first day of fighting alone) and their reluctance to advance on Tblisi outright. One would think that if the Russian military was up to the task of overthrowing the Georgian government they would have done so. What, do any of us here seriously think world public opinion will stop an army in its tracks? 66.66.154.162 (talk) 04:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

For the same Reason US led forces did not advance on Baghdad after the Gulf war: the Georgian Regime is already unstable and the Armenian population in the south is agitating for independence. It seems Moscow calculates that it only needs to wait for a new pro-Russian Govt to take power. As for the War itself the Russians did suffer significant casualties in the Initial attack mostly due to the fact that the “peacekeepers” were light infantry unsuited for frontline combat. Combat effectively ended by the third day, with Russian forces and allies Seizing key Georgian bases in Gori, Poti and Senaki and subsequently destroying all remaining Georgian military assets. It seems that the Russians simply plan to cary out a Serbian scenario and encourage the Georgian government to collapse rather than storming Tbilisi and Facing bloody Urban warfare. As for the losses Georgian and international media have only shown wreckage belonging to four planes and I simply don’t find the Georgian Gov’t who was making outlandish “Bagdad bob” like claims of Victory at Roki Tunnel to be a credible source. Freepsbane (talk) 19:46, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgians (only a small part of the army commited to the fighting in SO) wiped out the floor with Ossetians/Russians during their initial offensive due to their enemy's lack of night vision equipment. Later, they hit Russians exiting the tunnel, ambushed and destroyed the first column in the city (including wounding of the overall Russian commander!) and managed to bring down one huge bomber and at least 3 other aircraft. Then the Russians finally managed to silence the Georgia's air defenses and proceeded to bomb the crap out of their forces in SO, resulting in a withdrawal to Gori first and then a panicky rout to Tbilisi - followed by a ceasefire (and massive looting and systematical destruction of Georgian military and civilian property, largely based on the infamous point 5 of the French-made treaty). I didn't read any analysis on what happened in Abkhazia yet. (sources: NYT: Russians Melded Old-School Blitz With Modern Military Tactics, AP: US trainers say Georgian troops weren't ready, AFP: Blown away: Georgian troops say air superiority won war, The Times: Russian fighting machine is showing its age, say military analysts) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:19, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Those reports say the opposite of what you claim. Nothing at all about wiping Floors Osset, or a column destroyed in Roki, just a bit about Shrapnel from small arms hitting the Lt.Gen and the reporters. The Reason why the initial Georgian attack overran defensive lines was due to the fact that the Ossetian rebels and Russian peacekeepers were Light Infantry: in other words they were nonmechanised infantry that lacked anti-armor Assets. After the Regular 58th entered the battle the engagements were totally one sided following a pattern similar to the Persian Gulf war (Kuwait)As the links you gave all say. Typing down claims that have nothing to do with the content and have soapbox claims such as having downed a “huge bomber” (A older used for recon) and having “wiped out the floor” simply don’t belong in Misplaced Pages; The fact that a commander was wounded by shrapnel when he had (foolishly) strayed outside the protection of his armor, Should not be given the Baghdad Bob treatment and somehow be interpreted into the (absurd) idea that a whole colum of T-80 tanks was wiped out. If such would have been accomplished it certainly would have been possible for Georgia to collapse the tunnel and cut of the invasion route. As we all know that didn’t happen, Georgian defensive lines collapsed by the 11th and Georgian forces abandoned expensive equipment in Gori and Senaki while retreating to the capital. Subsequently Russian, Abkhazian and Ossetian forces occupied former Georgian strongholds where the Ossets then reportedly proceeded to loot. Clearly having your logistical headquarters (Gori ) be seized along with your Naval headquarters (Poti) and a key airbase (Senaki) in one week of fighting is not a sign of victory. Freepsbane (talk) 00:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Freepsbane, I'm not ComanL. As of your thesis: Ossetians/Russians were totally owned at first, as the Georgians sized most of what their enemy claim is their capital city in just few hours (and due to the enemy's lack of night-vision equipment, not having less tanks - having more tanks in a city is a disputable adventage anyway, more like targets for the rooftop/basement RPG gunners like the Russians themselves learned in Grozny). Russian tanks were hardly all T-80s (or even T-72s) and their vehicles were in a bad mechanical shape (many simply broke down on the roads). Tu-22M actually is a "huge bomber" (AKA strategic bomber). Btw, another analitic article I forgot: War reveals Russia's military might and weakness (by AP). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

the Link You Gave cites no Observers or sources it fails Verifiability criteria(one could make the same story about Our tanks in mosul with such standards) also note these are the same analists who predicted back on the 8th that this would turn out to be some sort or Russian version of the Lebanon war. As for your comment on the 22 you misunderstood my point; the Tu-22 used was a Recon aircraft (It's not very large, Smaler than a 160, and cost wise it’s far less expensive than a modern bomber such as the SU-34), and it’s loss is hardly significant (we lost 2 aircraft in the first night of the Gulf War), No western Media has actually ever claimed or validated the Roki story ; I doubt you can find a main stream source on either of your tank claims.(The 58th ‘s tanks are actually in beter shape than Our M1’s due to the favorable environment and low usage hours). And yes I don’t count five hundred lightly armed Russian Peacekeepers (who are nominally impartial) suffering fifteen casualties during the initial offensive to be part of the battle proper.Yes my point was that we must use sources that keep with Misplaced Pages’s verifiability standards, unsupported claims of smashing a convoy of MBTs simply won’t belong here especially because MS media has never shown any images or placed direct claims of it. And yes Russia did not use any armored vehicles older than a T-72 or BMP2 for this op(a significant portion of the tank’s were comprised of T-80s) .It’s best for these rumors to wait and see if any evidence is provided before moving.Freepsbane (talk) 01:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Not Dead But Very Alive Link And Most Likely By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV – Aug 18, 2008 MOSCOW (AP), Citing Anatoly Nogovitsyn Among Others. Russian eyewitness reporters (embedded to the Russian forces!) on the shape of the Russian equipment and the Georgian fire/ and the commander's column ambush (I believe posted before his wounding was officially confirmed)./ Russian casualties are actually unknown, unless you take the Russian official statements and figures seriously. What is "MS media", is this something like MS Windows? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 01:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

My mistake, the initial link was unavalible. Still Anatoly Nogovitsyn said nothing about tank faliures. As for the commander, we’ve already noted that he traveled away from his convoy and exposed himself to fire. Nothing is mentioned about some sort of bloodbath where the Tanks are all destroyed.As for the official statements yes, they overall match up with the reality on the ground and are in line with what we took during the 1st Gulf while the Georgian claims simply are incredulous; had they managed to cause as much damage as they claimed their lines would likely have held at Gori: the level of demoralization by that point is indicative of a total rout. The fact is Georgia never had much of a chance for ground combat on even footing, due to Russian Air superiority. Freepsbane (talk) 01:44, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

See above and stop Capitalizing words Randomly. I actually used the word "rout" (as in "panicky rout"), so learn to read, too. Yes, Russia eventually won - by overhelming numbers, but most of all by the air dominance. Also the fact that the most capable units of the Georgian army were trained in the counterinsurgency for Iraq/Afghanistan (and 2,000 of those were actually in Iraq), not holding territory against the Soviet-style massed combined arms offensive - and invested too much into artillery instead of AA systems. (At least they had UAVs and night-vision, which the Russians still lacked.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 02:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I’ll take more time to proofread my talk posts if you act more civil. Terms such as “eventually” and “overwhelming numbers” are in themselves biased and don’t fit in a five day war where numerically speaking the ground forces were relatively even. Yes I agree the Georgian order of battle was designed for combat against lightly armored rebels and irregulars, not a major military power. But I’ve seen no sources on the infrared issue, and UAV’s themselves became useless after day3 due to the loss of Radar and communications.Freepsbane (talk) 02:17, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Is it a reliable source? Again, i see nothing except speculation and no specific references! And Times article has some nice factual errors as well. 195.218.210.138 (talk) 23:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Get an account, then tell what do you think is "RELIABLE SOURCE (!!!!!111!!11)". Oh wait, I don't care about your opinion. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The column with the commander has been destroyed, yes, 9 August 2008, but the russian operation in Ossetia starts 8 August 2008, and the column with the commander has been destroyed near the city, but not in the city. Also it was not a first column, because russians were near Tskhinval (an ossetian name)/Tskhinvali (the georgian one) in the first day of the operation. (sources: Crew of TV channel "Vesti" came under fire, The commander of 58th army is wounded in South Ossetia) Also, the information about battles near the tunnel usually available only in georgian sources, and in analytic publications (and what about the sources used in those publications?..) (Pubkjre (talk) 22:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC))

According to reporters who traveled with that column (yesterday's TV), it wasn't even remotely "destroyed". Mainly thanks to stupid move of the georgian group (whether they were trained commandos or just stray soldiers) - they began shooting at aforementioned reporters instead of real threat. Incidentally, army commander travelled with these reporters at the moment. 195.218.210.138 (talk) 23:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Instead of debating who beat who here, I would suggest to use all these sources to update the casualties section of the infobox: 1) the latest official figure of missing Georgian soldiers is currently at 70, not 300. 2) Replace Nogovitsyn's "...I heard they lost 4000" (which I can't seem to find anywhere other than in Civil Georgia - in Russian sources the guy mainly says that "it's hard to tell...") with the 400 figure by that independent Georgian analyst, lacking a more official Russian estimate. --Illythr (talk) 23:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Do it. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:29, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I grabbed a Civil Georgia source for the official Georgian estimate instead. Better that way. Once an official Russian estimate for Georgian casualties is located, it should be inserted instead of the "independent Georgian" one. --Illythr (talk) 01:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

It would probably be a good idea to remove US and UA from the participants list, as this was not confirmed even by Russian officials (according to the sources presented). Also, can someone explain to me, why Ossetian reservists are included in the total head count, but the Georgian ones aren't? Is there a silent "seen any action" criterion in there or something? --Illythr (talk) 01:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

In forces they should listed, Georgia did not confirm, but neither USA nor Ukraine denied. How would they admit to using mercenaries, in this case? Of course they don't confirm... but their is testimony and news report which testifies to what has been added with careful consideration.--Tananka (talk) 02:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Better question: How this stuff ("European Tribune") landed there in the first place - and how long it was there? Actually, only few thousand Georgian troops has "seen any action", unless by "action" one means "witnessing bombing by Russian aircraft". Another question: why ONLY the Russian regular ground troops in Georgia counted - and not seaman, airmen, rear troops just across the border in Russia, or the irregulars such as "Cossack" or North Ossetian volunteers? It is unknown how many of the Georgian and Abkhaz reservists have seen any "action" (Georgian army/state also being largely paralized after the few first days), but certainly most of Ossetian did (at least by being armed while being "refugees" in Russia, then following Russian columns and pillaging after ceasefire, or doing other such war heroics). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 02:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The European Tribune article, clearly refers to Russia Today, it is completely verifiable as to what is referred to. But if it needs to be changed, then the Inner city journal refers to both reports as well. The wording can be changed, and "unconfirmed" or "alleged" if it's not NPOV enough as is. Otherwise it can be transferred to the body of the article and mentioned in more detail. --Tananka (talk) 02:48, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Infobox is not a place for what Russia's TV claimed Today (per Kokoity/disinform.ru?) to heat the anti-American hysteria in the society. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 02:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

That's enough vandalism! The comment was just deleted, and no edit summary was given. Nor any explanation offered on the talk page! It is sourced reliably, "Inner City Journal" by a journalist who's reporting from the UN. It is perfectly verifiable. If no proper argument is given against including it, then it will be added as it deserves to be.--Tananka (talk) 02:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

What comment? "Inner City Journal" being what? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 02:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Inner City Press (not journal, excuse me):

"On Ossetia, Denials by Khalilzad of Foreign Fighters, by Yerevan of Russian Planes in Armenian Bases

Byline: Matthew Russell Lee of Inner City Press at the UN: News Analysis

UNITED NATIONS, August 11 -- Propaganda or underground truth, on the sidelines of conflict in South Ossetia, Russian media has been reporting that foreign fighters, including Americans, were found among the dead in Tskhinvali. Russia Today quoted South Ossetia's Eduard Kokoity that "Ukrainians and mercenaries from the Baltics as well as nationals from other countries were involved in the fighting, as 'foreigners have been found among their bodies.'" South Ossetia's envoy to Russia was quoted that "in yesterday's most recent tank attack, the advancing tanks were supposedly crewed by Ukrainians. Two unidentified bodies found today... Americans... who were probably either mercenaries or instructors in the Georgian armed forces.""
So, what was the reason for deleting it? --Tananka (talk) 03:07, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

• Check it out: Inner City Press--Tananka (talk) 03:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see now. So, el presidente Comrade Kokoity said "unidentified bodies" found "today" (2 weeks ago) were "Americans" (nothing about those "unidentified indentified Americans" since then, of course), and the Russian state TV said some enemy soldiers were "supposedly" Ukrainians (ditto), so the USA and Ukraine are now sides in the conflict. You're right, I'm sorry, please forgive for being such a bastard and deleting your "comments" in the article. Also lol. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 03:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Saakashvili’s Account of Events that Led to Conflict

http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19282 I understand that this account comes from one of the belligerent parties, but it is still a useful source to reconstruct the Georgia government's vision of the sequence of events that led to the Russian invasion of 2008. In this televised address, Saakashvili follows the 2004-2008 timeline and recalls some details of his relations with Putin.--93.177.151.101 (talk) 05:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

A neutral account by IWPR journalists and editors --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

US Embassy in Moscow: Kommersant did inaccurately translate US Ambassador's comments

Archive Section "US Govt now says Russia's first move legitimate" ]

The trend was already predictable as I wrote above: If the interviewed person (an U.S. Govt. official) would say this above mentioned English-Russian-English translation is a misinterpretation or fake or was not authorized by him then the source/translation is without any value. Once more kommersant on its English website did not choose words/phrase in its interview summary that are identical or only similar with/to justified or legitimate. Very probably the interview was conducted in English.

Ambassador Beyrle Interview in Kommersant

In an interview in Kommersant published August 22, Ambassador Beyrle was quoted as saying that the Russian reaction to attacks on its peacekeeping forces was "completely justified." This is an inaccurate translation of Ambassador Beyrle's comments. As we have stated repeatedly, Russia's use of force in Georgia has been disproportionate, and we call on Russia to respect its obligation to withdraw its forces from Georgian territory in accordance with the ceasefire agreement.] - Elysander (talk) 07:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Article corrected not to use "completely justified". Embassy hasn't objected to Russian text, so more careful translations have to be used. Embassy hasn't complained about "legitimate" or "well grounded" Anatoly.bourov (talk) 12:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry ... obviously it doesn't make any sense to use any unauthorized translations til this date to underline an official US position. The only "legitimate" source can only be the complete interview in English and Russian authorized by the interviewed official (!). Til now i cannot see such a version but only an obviously corrupted Russian version which is spread via an additional unauthorized English translation. Elysander (talk) 13:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

RE "The only "legitimate" source can only be the complete interview in English and Russian authorized by the interviewed official (!)" Please provide a reference for this statement. The guidelines of WP:RS say nothing of the sort. The text in question uses Globe and Mail, and IHT as sources, which fully qualify as WP:RS. As far as Embassy objections, they are clearly directed at the verbiage of "completely justified" and leaving out the rest of the sentiment Both IHT and Globe and Mail pieces did not use the "completely justified" language and did include condemnation of the activities following the initial response, which is what the Embassy insisted should not be omitted. Please discontinue removing relevant and well-referenced material.Anatoly.bourov (talk) 14:30, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

RE "but only an obviously corrupted Russian version" -- this is POV. Russian text is still being linked on . The quote still belongs as a valid international reaction, as reported by reliable sources.Anatoly.bourov (talk) 14:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

OMG! Beyrle did give this interview as US Ambassador. To quote this interview or parts of it as official US statement you need a definitely authorized original text (and its translation). Once more: kommersant's own long summary of this interview in English use neither "legitimate" nor " well grounded". Elysander (talk) 14:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

please reference "To quote this interview or parts of it as official US statement you need a definitely authorized original text (and its translation)". Right now it sounds like POV. the sources are clearly reliable, and nowhere does article claim the translation (and even position) is official.Anatoly.bourov (talk) 14:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

as far as kommersant's summary -- it is irrelevant. Both Globe and Mail and IHT were clearly working off the full Russian text using actual quotes from the ambassador. If the quality of translation is good enough for them to put into print (and I am sure they were scrutinized), they should be good enough for WP.Anatoly.bourov (talk) 14:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Why should be kommersant's own summary irrelevant? G&M and IHT are using an obviously anyway corrupted Russian translation which by whom was translated to English. You don´t still understand the hint of biophys in the archive section. The two secondary sources who are dependent from only one certain source are not more up to date. I am expecting an administrator's decision. Elysander (talk) 15:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

What exactly is the "hint" you refer to? that I should stop supporting my point with reliable sources? The two secondary sources used the exact full US embassy-authorized text of the interview, and performed independant internal translation, making this a relevant, referenced point to be indcluded.Anatoly.bourov (talk) 15:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

As far as your claims that "you need a definitely authorized original text", is the Economist the official publication of the Council of Europe or the Swedish goverment?Anatoly.bourov (talk) 15:20, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry ... pure nonsense! 1) I did quote the Swedish government which released on its own website an official statement in English. Regarding Paul Bildt's concrete remarks you can find dozens of sources. He did express his own view in public and his profession is not a postman in Kansas. ;) 2) Generally said - all translations are interpretations. Therefore needs an official document or statement if translated an authorization by the author. We don't exactly know whether kommersant did accurately translate Beyrle's complete interview into Russian ; and it does exist (probably only) one "private" translation from Russian to English. This strange English-Russian-English transfer implies we have til now neither a definitely authorized Russian version nor a definitely authorized English version. Elysander (talk) 18:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Elysander: I see that you've resorted to continually vandalizing the page without any new comments. You also claim that you have requested administrative arbitration, please refrain from further vandalism. As far as your claim of sources being outdated, the objection of US embassy to the use of "completely justified" verbiage has already been addressed in the article, the embassy still stands behind the rest of the text. If you have references to new translations of the same text, please include them in the article. Anatoly.bourov (talk) 15:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

As i said an administrator should decide whether outdated sources can overrule the momentum of a corrupted text. Elysander (talk) 15:30, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Correction: I did request for a "3rd Opinion" ] hours ago Elysander (talk) 21:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, an administrator should clearly see that there is no reference to the "corrupted text". The only "corrupted text" as objected to by the embassy is "completely justified". No verbiage of "completely justified" was ever used either in the article or in any of the references. Please allow the administrator to see the page with the references included as it stands now.Anatoly.bourov (talk) 15:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Surviving Georgian CG vessels

The following picture Image:080824-N-4044H-012.jpg shows a surviving patrol boat of the Georgian Coat Guard. Photo by US Navy. Sv1xv (talk) 12:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

See also Image:080824-N-4044H-012A.jpg

Sv1xv (talk) 12:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Batumi wasn't affected --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Gori, Georgia

Could somebody take care of the article Gori, Georgia? The Russian user SkyBon vandalizes it, removing the Human Rights Watch report on cluster bombing without explaining her/his reasoning on the discussion page. I'm getting weary of fighting with her/him.--93.177.151.101 (talk) 18:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I will take care too. I could read there following edit comment:

SkyBon (Talk | contribs).. (YOU stop and YOU go to discussion page, mr. georgian and pro-fashist) - —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elysander (talk • contribs) 21:49, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

No cluster bombing here. Магистер (talk) 21:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Cluster bombing here and elsewhere too. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Aug. 25 update

http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19290 The Georgian police and Ossetian militias are on the verge of a new confrontation over the Akhalgori municipality which had not been a part of the "conflict zone" before the August war. Please help update the article. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 18:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

... Neither was gori... at this point, Not part of the Ossetia Conflict zone means nothing.--Jakezing (talk) 20:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Reports about looting of Georgian villages in South Ossetia

An article in Moscow Times describes what's happening to the Georgian villages in South Ossetia . I personally met refugees from that village. They had fled from it while Russian planes were bombing it. They had to leave everything and fled in the clothes they were wearing at the moment. And now everything they had have been burned or stolen. Narking (talk) 18:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia is attempting to empty South Ossetia of Georgians - Alexander Stubb

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7581282.stm Stubb's account of ethnic cleansing. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 19:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe time to start a section about the ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia. And by the way I wonder if Medvedev meant this ethnic cleansing? Narking (talk) 21:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

"Attempting"? They did, and now brag about it - like here the "president" Kokoity: --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Ossetians indeed have burned some empty villages - the ones that have peen used as staging areas of georgian offensive. Local population there was in fact evacuated by georgian army before war (same thing happened in Abkhazia)! But nobody ousted georgian civilians out of other villages not involved in the the conflict (but many civilians have left anyway because of devastation). There are, however, some reports about suspicious georgian police activity in some distant villages - ossetians suspect there are infiltrating army units disguised as policemen. 195.218.210.138 (talk) 23:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Observers from HRW and OSCE have different opinion than you, Mr. 195.218.210.138. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, they all say it's Ossetian iregulars, not the Russian army.Freepsbane (talk) 00:39, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

They're Russian irregulars - they're Russian citiziens supported by the Russian army and government. Many of them even came from Russia (as did most of "South Ossetian government") and the regular/federal military is responsible for their local militias' actions (see the case of Veselin Šljivančanin, for example). In any case, BBC/OSCE is talking about lorries belonging to the Russian emergency ministry forces. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 01:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Kokoity said: "we burned to the ground all Georgian towns and villages in South Ossetia". According to a human rights organization,

“We burned these houses. We want to make sure that they can’t come back, because if they do come back, this will be a Georgian enclave again and this should not happen.” The officer went on to describe events during the fighting, including the execution of a Georgian armed man...

Biophys (talk) 03:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Should we create an article Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in South Ossetia? Biophys (talk) 04:06, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure, why not, we can always do with more anti-Russian NPOV propaganda on WP. I'm sure that certain editors are up for that challenge with plenty of (US-government funded) resources available for content purposes. --Russavia 04:33, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Well how better is the Kremlin funded propaganda resources? The page will be created after enough references are compiled from OSCE declarations and actual findings by Human Rights Watch (i guess they are also CIA funded anti-Russian/Putin club). Thanks for a good laugh. Iberieli (talk) 04:44, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Has the "humanitarian mission" started?

The list of NATO's warships situated in Black Sea right now.

• USS McFaul (DDG-74) US Navy
• Almirante Juan de Borbón (F102) Spanish Navy
• Bremen class frigate Lübeck German Navy
• ORP Generał Kazimierz Pułaski Polish Navy
• USCGC Dallas (WHEC-716) US Navy

Who else?!!

• All of them are full of baby food and care supplies, bottled water, and milk!!!

http://www.reuters.com/article/europeCrisis/idUSLP442126 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.98.173.10 (talk) 20:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/20/navy.georgia.aid/index.html

http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/25/ships/

--195.98.173.10 (talk) 19:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

that puts things into perspective, warships on "humanitarian mission". We'll see.--Tananka (talk) 01:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The results of NATO-lead "humanitarian mission" in Afganistan. In Iraq. Who will next? --195.98.173.10 (talk) 02:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The invasion of Iraq and the intervention in "Afganistan"(sic) were not the US military's "humanitarian missions" - the post-tsunami aid was, for example, as were the food airdops over Bosnia. "Who will next"? Whoever will be hit by a natural or a man-made disaster, I guess. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 03:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Arguably war IS a man-made disaster. The only problem is that real "humanitarian missions" are supposed to happen AFTER it rather than before. 68.151.34.161 (talk) 04:23, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

What "perspective"? I guess you just never heard about the US military's humanitarian operations, but this is only your problem. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 03:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Missing source for Estonia hosting the web page of Georgian Foreign Ministery

is here: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/081208-estonia-poland-help-georgia-fight.html Could anybody with permission to the article, add it? Thanks, Erikupoeg (talk) 22:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Done. --Illythr (talk) 23:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7570949.stm

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• All unassessed articles
• WikiProject templates with unknown parameters
• B-Class Abkhazia articles
• Top-importance Abkhazia articles
• WikiProject Abkhazia articles
• B-Class Georgia (country) articles
• Top-importance Georgia (country) articles
• WikiProject Georgia (country) articles
• B-Class Russia articles
• Top-importance Russia articles
• Top-importance B-Class Russia articles
• WikiProject Russia articles with no associated task force
• WikiProject Russia articles
• B-Class International relations articles
• Top-importance International relations articles
• WikiProject International relations articles
• B-Class military history articles
• B-Class Russian, Soviet and CIS military history articles
• Russian, Soviet and CIS military history task force articles
• Misplaced Pages In the news articles