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Revision as of 21:16, 2 October 2005

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Why The Current (Protected) Version Should Remain

The Black Dahlia Murder is a band from Detroit, Michigan.

The most neutral as a description could be.

Their musical genre has been a subject of debate among listeners and fans - sometimes being called melodic death metal, and other times metalcore.

TRUE. In reviews at both Amazon.com and CD Now, reviewers refer to the band as Metalcore or Melodic Death Metal. (There's even a list on Amazon.com in which TBDM is listed as a "Top Metalcore Band").

Out of 79 reviews of "Unhallowed", 4 people called it metalcore, 1 person called it hardcore and 1 called it grindcore. Didn't bother with Miasma, because it clearly is death metal (not even that melodic) but you wouldn't know because you never heard it.

There is also mention of hardcore/metalcore for the Miasma page at Amazon. I have heard the album in its entirety and it is really no different than any other metalcore band that used Swedish Death Metal in their influences. Again, how are they different than other American metalcore bands with Swedish Death Metal influences? -Danteferno

However, some think that their Swedish Death Metal influence would make them a melodic death metal band. Fact is, they've been categorized as both.

Only by you

FALSE. You JUST acknowledged (above) that reviewers on Amazon called TBDM hardcore/metalcore (as you stated (hesitantly) in your own biased revert). What is the point of denial?-Danteferno

I meant on wikipedia. Besides, those saying it's metalcore are a negligible minority. Also, many of the other reviews say that "people who think TBDM is metalcore are plainly wrong"

If this was actually a minority (it isn't), then the claim of metalcore wouldn't even matter and wouldn't be stressed as heavily as you made it in the article. -Danteferno

However, in a press release, the band also describes their sound as Hardcore-influenced death metal, which in some respect confirms the metalcore label.

TRUE.

FALSE. Not the band, their record label.

Again, what lead their record label to use such terminology? (Everyone seems to know why except you.)-Danteferno

Their first demo? lack of knowledge? wanting to sell their records to the metalcore crowd?

So you don't know. Their first demo? (Highly doubtful.) Lack of knowledge (I don't think Metal Blade Records employs idiots.) wanting to sell their records to the metalcore crowd? (I think the metalcore scene knows a metalcore band when they see/hear one and don't need a record label to spell things out for them.)-Danteferno

The band supposedly says this is wrong - why? They started as a metalcore band and began playing Swedish styles. How is this any different than the way Unearth, Underoath, As I Lay Dying, Bleeding Through, et all, started? Perhaps this could be further elaborated on by those who disagree with the metalcore affiliation.

Perhaps you would elaborate how do you define metalcore and melodeath, besides the very detailed description "chuga-chuga riffs". You said AILD, Lamb of God and TBDM sound the same, how am I supposed to take you seriously? Your only arguments are that many metalcore fans listen to TBDM (proves nothing) and that they are influenced by swedish melodeath like many metalcore groups (proves nothing either).

And they also began as a metalcore band.

Carcass started as a goregrind band. Sugar Ray started as a hard rock band and later "evolved" into crappy pop-rock. The Exploited started as a punk rock band, now they are hardcore/thrash.

But each band kept parts of their older styles and mixed it in with the newer music.-Danteferno

You still have not explained the difference between TBDM and all the other bands repeatedly listed. And you still have not stated in detail what makes them melodic death metal.

Oh yes I have, but you just didn't acknowledge it. Blast beats, death growls, typical death riffs (between the melodic parts), solos and lyrics. Name one metalcore band that has ALL these elements, not one band for each feature.

I already answered that a long time ago; you have not stated what makes every other American band who uses Swedish Death (and started as metalcore) different than TBDM, because frankly, there really is NO difference.-Danteferno

Also, I'd like to hear your definitions of metalcore and melodeath, and for example what differences do you see between At The Gates and metalcore bands. This could be interesting. They too have those repetitive "chuga chuga" riffs and "metalcore growls" (this is a good one).

The best way to answer your question is to read the article Swede-core (in which TBDM is listed, and I wasn't the one who put them there, further proving that more people don't share your opinion) and then compare that definition to Melodic Death Metal. At The Gates were much more technically proficient in music style with fluid guitar melodies, solos, and experimentation; TBDM is more apt to repetitive tempos and simple rhythms under blast beats, which is quite typical for bands of the Hardcore fold. -Danteferno

Fact is, there are two different opinions for the band, and my article reflects this neutrally; Yours does not. -Danteferno

My article listed all the ties the band ever had to hardcore/metalcore. Yours simply states that some consider it metalcore. If you want to be truly neutral and nonjudgmental, why don't you add "some consider it grindcore, some thrash metal, some nu-metal, and you could probably find a person who would say they play italodisco". Besides why does your article state their category as "Metalcore groups" but not "death metal groups"? Is this neutrality?

No, your article states that they are "wrongly defined as a metalcore band," which is not true. *sigh* Again, this is really going to go nowhere. You're not going to change my opinion, and likely I will not change yours. Yes, to be fair, a "Death Metal" groups template should be placed on the bottom along with "Metalcore" groups, since both classifications are argued. But aside from that, nothing else really needs to be altered or added. The article states that there is a dispute regarding classification and it currently reflects it partially. -Danteferno

Impasse

There will probably be no agreement as to what genre TBDM belongs to, however, 83.24.5.179 has come to a consensus on some things:

• 1.) The band started as a metalcore band.
• 2.) They currently tour with many metalcore bands.
• 3.) Most of their fanbase denotes a metalcore audience
• 4.) The band cites Swedish death metal as a musical influence, common for many metalcore bands.
• 5.) Metal Blade Records called them a "Hardcore-influenced death metal" band in a press release, which I'm sure (know) was for a good reason, and I really don't believe that the Press Relations at MBR are misinformed.

With this in mind, it would be misleading to call TBDM "firmly melodic death metal", as there would probably be some disagreement to call them metalcore as well. Thus, I feel my version is truly warranted, accurate, and neurtral - however, I am open to an "Argument and Debate on Genre" section that anyone has in mind.

Further Dismantling The Claim That TBDM Is Melodic Death Metal

However, their harsh melodic riffage

Bleeding Through, Atreyu and As I Lay Dying (among others) also have "harsh melodic riffage".

They also have blast beats, death growls, shredding solos and palm muted tremolo pickings on the low strings, typical for thrash and death metal. Hardcore, coming from punk, uses more power chords and is generally slower. And metalcore vocals are just terrible shoutingh.

Blast beats? Yes (but so do many other metalcore bands) death growls? (Not really, most of TBDM's vocals are in the form of a shriek and the growls are more metalcore-ish growls) Shreading solos? (Puh-lease. Not in this band. Just the same chuga-chuga riffs like every other metalcore band.)

I see this discussion is pointless, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

NOPE - being that you did not answer any of those points, quite the contrary.

dark lyrics

Lamb of God, All Shall Parish (among others) also have dark lyrics.

yes and they are metalcore as hell.

...Just like The Black Dahlia Murder. How are The Black Dahlia Murder any different than these bands?

Oh yes! How could I not notice this before, TBDM sounds identical to Lamb of God! You got me there.

Nice that you can admit to one thing (in addition to TBDM being more associated with metalcore audiences and touring with metalcore bands.)

and self professed death metal influences

And Hardcore influences, as the band has stated in addition to metal influences.

link/quote please

It's in their press-release by Metal Blade (the one you don't want to

acknowledge.)

Oh you mean the one they say is wrong? BTW, nice going, deleting my question about Miasma and all.

Which leaves us at: METALCORE. There is a large difference when listening to Dark Tranquillity, In Flames and Opeth, and then to The Black Dahlia Murder. That difference is called sound.

Yes, they combine gothenburg melodic sound with american death metal. So that difference is mainly called speed.

WHAT American Death Metal? They sound absolutely nothing like Cannibal Corpse, Morbid Angel, Deicide, et al. Just the same derivative Gothenburg influence that many other metalcore bands use.

Ok, they take swedish melodeath and play it twice as fast. How does that make them metalcore? The only thing they have in common are Gothenburg influences. They first demo was metalcore, and there it stopped. I remember Trevor saying something along the lines of "don't download it, it seriously sucks, that's in the past and we want to forget about it" on their old forum.

You still haven't explained how they are influenced by American death metal.They may say it,but they also seem to say a lot of things, as you seem to be pointing out.You're now admitting that they started as a metalcore band. With that admission, why are you so rear-hurt about including their ever-so-obvious metalcore affiliations in the article? Your silly revert war is taking this absolutely nowhere, so either deal with the article PARTIALLY and FAIRLY balancing out both genres, or find some other venue for your trolling purposes.

The Black Dahlia Murder's Press Release calls their sound "Hardcore"-influenced

The official band's press release, describing the music: "The Intensity of Hardcore, the hellish stench of death-metal" (That sounds like Metalcore to me.)

Perhaps 83.24.5.179 could explain this to us, as he/she continues to revert anything with hardcore/metalcore out of the article.

"When we started out around five years ago, we had a very different line up to what we have today. In fact, the only people from that line up that remain today are Strnad and I. Back then, our sound was very much like a mix of hardcore and metal. We recorded a demo tape (Consisting of four tracks) with that kind of sound, but that’s when it all ended. Everything since then has been a lot different sounding because we didn’t want to write shit like that any more. We wanted to play fucking metal. That’s actually the first theory behind why people believe we have a hardcore influence. The second theory, and the one we believe has played the biggest part is helping fuel this misconception is actually our record label Metal Blade Records. A lot of the press that Metal Blade Records has been doing over the last couple of years has described us as a melodic metal band that incorporates New York hardcore. I mean that’s so far off left field from the actual truth! But that was our introduction to the world on a grand scale. That’s how they presented the band. So that’s something that we’ve been dealing with ever since! They actually thought that we’re a metalcore band. How funny and ironic is it that a label should brand us as something so off the mark." - from an interview with Brian Eschbach

They think we're metalcore just because we have short hair. You listen to our record, and it doesn't sound like metalcore. - from an interview with Trevor Strnad

So the lead singer/members are in denial of the actual influences and sound of their band, yet they obviously sound like, look like, and have fans that are a part of the genre that they deny. (metalcore/hardcore.) If the lead singer said jumping off a cliff was a cure for the common cold, would you publish that in the article? Reverted back. Sorry. :(

Revert War

This revert war needs to stop. Please complare revert versions between myself and 83.24.5.179. Nearly EVERY review of this band has brought up both metalcore and melodic death metal as the genre,

This is a lie. The first article stub calls them melodic death metal. They have been called melodeath, then death metal, then you changed it to deathcore (which is a made up genre, by the way) then again melodeath. Then you changed it to metalcore and kept reverting it to metalcore after different people corrected your changes and explained why you are wrong."

The "different people" correcting the changes were all anonymous IP addresses begining in "83.24..." that anyone with the ability to start-up a computer would realize is the same person. Do you really think you're fooling anyone? You certainly didn't fool Misplaced Pages. (And deathcore is not a "made up" genre - there is a Wikipage for it.)

You like adjusting facts to fit your theories, don't you. 68.110.96.207, 198.189.164.206, 206.176.225.221, Paul foord. And don't try to make it a wikipedia vs me war, because right now you are the only one here who ever considered TBDM metalcore or any other -core. Look at the revision history. Also, deathcore was already voted vor removal once. "Death metal with more muted drumwork", please. Soon there will be genres for bands using different tunings, like dropped-d-core, 7-string-core and who knows what else. This is getting ridiculous.

Based on that perspective, "Melodic Death Metal" shouldn't be a genre either, then. Looking at the users you mention, 198.189.164.206 didn't change my edits, and all users Paul foord and 206.176.225.221 did was put a template at the bottom of the page. And I don't really see how 68.110.96.207 was involved with any revert war, either. If you want to know the definition of someone who "distorts facts to fit theories", looking in the mirror would be a first bet. I find it interesting how you responded to this but not the posts above in trying to make the article better; I think this proves that you're here to disrupt and nothing else.

You know what, I suddenly lost interest in this conversation. Anyone interested can read the discussion, look in the change history and draw their own conclusion. Your article is biased towards metalcore, parts of it aren't even true, half of your arguments in this discussion aren't true, but I don't care anymore. Can't be bothered to argue with you and the admin who locked the article. You can congratulate yourself on making Misplaced Pages a little less reliable.

Nice for you to finally concede. If I was responsible for making "Misplaced Pages a little less reliable", then you would have responded to each of the arguments which you avoided, versus an invisible "majority rules game", which is not how Misplaced Pages works, even if these visions were true. Hopefully this will teach you that Misplaced Pages is meant for civil discussion (not childish revert and flame wars) when there is an article dispute.

and since the Swedish death metal scene has had much influence on many metalcore bands (like TBDM, IMO), there seems to be little rationale in trying to deny or distance the metalcore connection (the music has the same repetitive riffs as countless other Swedecore/Metalcore bands, namely Bleeding Through, Atreyu and As I Lay Dying.) My version says that have been categorized as both genres. 83.24.5.179's version says that they're just melodic death metal, that's that, and that there's no connection to metalcore. 83.24.5.179's motive is most likely trolling, as he/she's version also smacks of obvious NPOV and he/she is unwilling to debate. Danteferno

I have protected the article as it is getting out of hand. Sasquatch讲看 00:20, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

THANK YOU! It looks like it will be protected for a while, as user "83.24.../83.31" is still very reluctant to discuss the matter. -Danteferno

Sometimes called Metalcore, eh?

There is one reason why The Black Dahlia Murder is ever called metalcore and that is pretty much because they tour with metalcore bands. Their music is pure Gothenburg sound, their lyrics involve zombies, and necrophaliacal rape, and they can easily be called an At The Gates sound alike. If you're going to call The Black Dahlia Murder metalcore, you'll have to do the same to In Flames and Carcass. I'm changing the part mentioning metalcore.

unrealshadow13

There are many more reasons than that in terms of why the band has been applied with the metalcore label: 1. Same-ish song structures. 2. Same-ish breakdowns 3. Limited guitar solos (since most metalcore bands rely on punk song structures, which are usually solo-less.) There are some traces of Gothenburg, but like most U.S. bands utlizing the style (Shadows Fall, Lamb of God, etc.) it all comes down to "hardcore" roots. Since there is no firm agreement to either assessment, the version I made works just fine.

Unprotected

No substantive discussion. --Tony Sidaway 08:51, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

14+ Days and Counting...

...since anonymous user "83.24..." has not responded to arguments (below) regarding the band's genre and sustained discussion in trying to work out a neutral article.

Since the majority of Misplaced Pages edit wars, page blanking and NPOV problems (i.e., trolling) are perpetrated by anoymous IP's, it's now safe to say that "83.24.."'s presence here is to instigate page vandalism, nothing more, nothing less. If the name-calling and other forms of disruption is also not an indication - I don't know what is.

Some facts

FACT: the band did not describe themselves as metalcore. Metal Blade did it, and there is an interview with one of the members explaining why it happened.

And they started as metalcore, and their fans are metalcore fans, and many fans and listeners describe them as metalcore.

FACT: Danteferno is the only person who edited the article to include metalcore/deathcore/hardcore, whatevercore.

Not true.

FACT: several people corrected him (it's all in the changes history, you can't argue with that)

No, Several anonymous IP addresses obviously belonging to the same person reverted the edit.

FACT: Lamb of God, As I Lay Dying and The Black Dahlia murder sound the same to him

They sound the same to a lot of people.

FACT: he recently tried to change Lamb of God's genre to metalcore

Popular opinion describes Lamb of God's genre as metalcore.

FACT: He already had a warning for POV pushing on his user talk page, but he deleted it (it's still in the history)

POV warnings? The only thing on my talk page was requests asking for discussion in trying to write a more neutral article, which you obviously have no interest in. You have basically lied in saying that you no longer had interest in this discussion; now you are back to start more trouble with your anonymous IPs, and still reluctant to engage in civil discussion, but rather childish/immature kid games.

abuse@tpnet.pl

It appears the user ("83.24...") involved in the revert war/spam uses a Netherland's server and is based in Poland. I have sent the provider a formal complaint to the above e-mail mentioning the user's IP addresses; should you find this user was involved in vandalizing other page(s), I encourage anyone else to do the same.

P.S. - in the e-mail, be sure to CC: Misplaced Pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danteferno (talk • contribs) 13:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Stop, you're in breach of policy

As an administrator I want to caution editors from following Danteferno's lead and bothering tpnet.pl over this matter, which as a disagreement over musical genre is a perfectly normal content dispute of the kind that is routinely dealt with ever day on Misplaced Pages. I ask Danteferno to read our Policies and guidelines and take them seriously, particularly:

• Civility
• Assumption of good faith
• No personal attacks

These are not optional or "advisory", they're policies which you're expected to follow. You are not doing so and so you're in breach of policy. Edit warring is also a breach of policy which, in serious cases, can be dealt with by blocking, and I am considering taking such steps. Stop immediately. Both edit warriors, stop edit warring and discuss intelligently over how the band is to be described. Start with what you both agree on (it's a metal group). Both agree to call it a metal group and then work together to expand that description in terms you can both live with. --Tony Sidaway 20:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

This anonymous user("83.24...") is NOT going to discuss - as you will see above, I have been absolutely open to discussing this matter for some time, and he(?) has been unwilling to, which probably reflects his(?) intentions behind the perpetration of the revert war - distruption. A similar problem has been going on with the System of a Down article - as usual, those who are perpetrating the edit war are anonymous users who have no interest to explain their reasoning for revert/changing a genre, but to disrupt for means of attention. Also, how have I violated Misplaced Pages's No personal attacks/Civility policy? Have you observed 83.24...'s antics in the history page? I plea for you to look much closer at this situation. --Danteferno 20:45, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Anonymous editors are some of the most valued contributors on Misplaced Pages, but you have used the anonymous nature of one contributor with whose opinions you disagree to tar him with the brush of "vandal". This is violation of all three policies. Please stop this and stop edit warring. --Tony Sidaway 20:58, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

If the user is not willing to discuss - and uses name-calling/personal attacks, then what other term would be appropriate? Certainly not "valued Misplaced Pages contributor", right? I would like this revert war to stop as well - my version most obviously reflects that The Black Dahlia Murder's genre has been under debate, and the article reflects both genres. The "valued Misplaced Pages contributor"'s version reflects only one genre - which is more neutral? --Danteferno 21:15, 2 October 2005 (UTC)