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RK re: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

cross-posted to user talk:Adam Carr

You might want to know about this. User:Danny and User:Zero000 (perhaps the same person?) are repeatedly deleting vast amounts of material in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict article. Danny has made hysterical and false claims it is a "right-wing" anti-Arab, pro-Israeli point of view...to allow an Arab point of view to be shown. (Yeah, you read that right. He thinks mentioning Arab points of view in public is pro-Israeli POV violations!) Please understand, this is not a difference of opinion on what to include or how to phrase something. Like you, I am flexible. The problem is that Danny refuses to even allow the issue to be discussed, and offers no alternatives or constructive criticism. He just is engaged in a vandalism campaign, and refuses to allow anyone to edit the article. That is a clear violation of all Misplaced Pages rules. Others have also spoken out against the vandalism of Danny, and labeled it precisely as such. RK 02:17, Jan 9, 2004 (UTC)

OK, I've put it on my watchlist. That plus talk is a lot of reading... Gosh, looks like this turns into full time job!

I have major problems with the very 1st para:

The conflict between Israelis and Palestinians revolve today around these two issues:

• • The fate of the West Bank and Gaza.
  • The fate of the Palestinian refugees.

If this was true, then why total silence during Jordan/Egypt. occupation of 1949-1967? AFAIK, the conflict revolves around only one issue: Arabs' hope to destroy Israel, plus European antiamericanism and A-S. That's real reasons behind the 'refugees' rotting in camps, endless wars (open, guerilla, attrition, etc), demographic explosion, and all the rest. BTW, I've emailed you "thank you" msg a few days ago, guess you didn't get it? Humus sapiens 10:02, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

re:VfD/Anjouli and views

Just wanted to say thanks for clarifying that you weren't meaning to be personal about Anjouli. I tried earlier, but the servers wouldn't let me.

Thank _you_ for understanding and bearing with us novices. I'll try to be even more careful next time. I've inserted it back here for ref, as this seems to be common practice here. Humus sapiens 07:22, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

• (blah blah)
  • Delete this POV article. (And I was born Jewish!). Anjouli 05:32, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
    • Note, this is "NPOV" from Saudi Arabia, the world's expert on anti-Semitism. Humus sapiens 10:05, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
      • I am an American citizen of Jewish origin and I happen to be in Saudi Arabia because my husband is a diplomat who is posted here. Even if I were a Saudi, would that mean any comment I made was without merit? That point of view is called racial stereotyping. To be fair, the article is moving towards NPOV and I am close to changing my vote. Anjouli 13:22, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
        • Racial stereotyping would be putting one's ethnic origin (which must be irrelevant anyway, and if renounced - doubly so) in front of their vote, thereby suggesting that all the Jews supposedly have the same opinion or some kind of conspiracy. A Jew can be an Antisemite, just as an American can be an Anti-American. Good example of Psychological projection. Humus sapiens 07:20, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I have to say that I thought it was a bit off to be trying to dismiss Anjouli's comments just because she lives in Saudi Arabia. That's a touch ad hominem, and here we like to focus on the arguments, not on the people. Accordingly, I've moved the above comments here: hope that's ok. You might want to chat to Anjouli privately to see if you can resolve this issue peacably. Martin 23:41, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant to focus exactly on the arguments. Humus sapiens 01:26, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Your views on Isr/Pal are... wow, completely different to mine - perhaps more than anyone else I've met today. Hope we can work together regardless. Martin 23:38, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Absolutely, as long as we all strive for making things better and resolving our diffs non-violently. BTW, sorry your views are wrong :)p Humus sapiens 07:22, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism

If it is "facts" you want, most of the Anti-Semitism article should probably be deleted according to you. Fact: any criticism of Israel is called anti-semitism by some Israelis. Fact: many jews are opposed to Israel. Fact: Israel is treating the Palestinians much like Jews were treated by European governments during WW2. If it is indeed facts you want, rather than a POV soapbox, you should agree these facts must be present in the extremely POV article Anti-Semitism. I am aware for many it is easier to deny facts rather than change a limited world-view, but you really ought to read up on what is NPOV here. — Jor 21:07, Jan 13, 2004 (UTC)

"Fact: many jews are opposed to Israel" - if you try to claim NPOV here, you'll have to show me an article for any other country where you wrote many of its citizens are opposed to it. If you can't, with monsters like N.Korea, Iran, Saddam's Iraq, etc.: Consider "Bigotry-finder rule 101": Take a situation, change the race, religion, sexual orientation, or other aspect of the players' identities, and see if the same results apply... Listen to the criticism of any other country: It is always a political party, a program, a policy, or a person that is criticized, never the legitimacy of a society. Except for Israel. Why Campus Anti-Israel Activity Flunks Bigotry 101

"Fact: Israel is treating the Palestinians much like Jews were treated by European governments during WW2." - another typical Antisemitic propaganda cliche, deeply immoral and very untrue. The rest of your arguments are of the same nature, thank you for clearing out your position. I am afraid your contribution to the topic of AS is too... exemplary, if you know what I mean. In the future, try to keep emotions out of encyclopedia: see Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not. Sorry I don't have any more time for your education. Humus sapiens 03:45, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I am sorry you refuse to see that your overuse of the term antisemitic is a cliché in itself, which is a real potential danger in that it diludes the term, and as such is deeply immoral and very untrue. The entire AS article is one boiling pot of emotion as it is, I believe that when it comes to this topic it is nearly impossible to keep a neutral point of view: it certainly is hardly at all present now. — Jor

Singling out Jews or Israel hardly makes it more encyclopedic or balanced. I didn't write the article. Your contribution was higly emotional, factually wrong and not constructive. Don't take it personal. Are we here to make encycl. better or to push propagandist agenda? This is not a political chat. This is my last reply to you today. Humus sapiens 04:25, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I accept that you see the facts from a different POV than I do. The discussion is moot now anyway, as the point I wanted to make in my edit is present now, despite your over-eager revert. Shalom Aleichem. — Jor 04:33, Jan 14, 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for reverting the Anti-Semitism page. I have made some changes such as replacing "Jewish people" with "Jews", improving some English, and clarifying some points. You can reach me on my talk page or via email. User:OneVoice

Username mods

(Why do people modify their sig as MyRedDice -> Martin and Darkelf -> Jor have above? Is something gained by this? Some information conveyed?) -- User:OneVoice

You forgot to sign. Darkelf is a username, Jor is my name. I find it makes discussions easier when names rather than usernames are used. — Jor

Glad you liked my edits; it's quite a nice article, by the way. —MIRV (talk) 01:51, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Russian Misplaced Pages

Dear friend,

I have a guess that among other languages, you know Russian. May I ask you to help us in creating good articles for it, namely about such sesitive topics like antisemitism? Thanks! Drbug 12:32, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try. But I cannot promise to keep away from other topics :) Humus sapiens 22:43, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I just didn't dare to ask you more, it's only welcome of course! Thank you! Drbug 11:28, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Vfd Comment

You wrote:

To educate those who call blowing up schoolbusses, discos and pizzerias "a cat and mouse play game" or try to justify the unjustifiable. Humus sapiens 04:20, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The inference is that Europeen, above, was calling blowing up busses a "cat and mouse game". However, that's not what sie said, and I feel your comment was unnecessarilly provocative. We have enough flame wars already, thanks. :) Martin 16:14, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

That wasn't my intention at all. I find the Europeen's article, comments and dirty voting games worth reprimanding. Will try to be more constructive and polite in the future. Humus sapiens 10:46, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Wikiproject

I would like to formally invite you to join others at Misplaced Pages:Wikiproject_Arab-Israeli_conflict to work with us toward resolving issues that have arisen and resulted in edit wars here at Misplaced Pages. Also, I would like to formally request that you agree, along with the rest of us, to refrain from editting each of the articles that are listed as currently under protection or subject to edit wars on that page till the issues regarding that particular article have been resolved and we have removed that article from the currently under protection or subject to edit wars list. OneVoice 15:44, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate the invitation. I've glanced at the conditions, they seem reasonable. Humus sapiens 21:05, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Would you add your acceptance or acceptance with reservations at WP:AIC in the Project Members section? OneVoice 22:18, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Your Name

I gotta say, I get a smile on my face every time I see your name. *grins* Perhaps you'd like to join Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Primates? - UtherSRG 21:10, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

You need to go to the page and vote regarding the changes some are trying to make there.