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OK

Point taken. But do the thought experiment. Giano has defenders against the civility police. Yanni, apparently, does not.

I know I still owe you an email by the way. Glad you're back. Marskell (talk) 11:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and if it wasn't obvious, I typed "fuck" to underscore how preposterous it is to bring somebody to AN/I for typing "damn". I found the thread a gob-smacking example of how AN/I often does more harm than good. Anyway. Marskell (talk) 13:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

AN/I has a predisposition to it, just as AfD does. One assumes, before reading the details, that the person typing has a complaint and that the person complaining about is guilty. However, the really nasty part is that it replicates peer pressure. If two "bigger" Wikipedians "Endorse" then I must, too, and then the next one will archive it as a totally solved issue. It's a fucking disgrace when that happens. Complaining of "civility" is uncivil. Utgard Loki (talk) 17:09, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I disagree - there have been many cases where there's been consensus at ANI, I've been asked to take a look, and stated bluntly that the case is badly mishandled or the user said to be a problem isn't. Making loud noises or exaggeration (as some might do) doesn't help. But actually analyzing the evidence for it in a calm neutral way, does. "If they endorse I feel I have to as well" is very poor reasoning. I've never felt the obligation to go along with others if they have misjudged an editor, and although many cases that come to ANI do merit admin action, I've routinely and successfully defended users on the edge of a ban or block and criticized the would-be blocker when it's clear they haven't done anything deserving of it. You (or anyone) can do the same, just as well. I spent most of 2007 being asked to review and help on difficult cases, including quite a few of apparent bias and bad admin judgement by other concerned admins, and most times you can do something if there's a good reason why it's not been done well so far. (And hi, Bish, hope commenting on this is okay) FT2  23:50, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The above person is yet another example of an IRC Chan op who has managed to become an Arb! All very odd. Giano (talk) 09:25, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The "managed to" was a public vote of 264 - 33, the second highest rating (and 5th highest in support, 2nd lowest in opposes) of any user, in a heavily scrutinized public open election that any non-banned user with a fairly modest level of editing and any views whatsoever could vote in. I work (mostly in the background) on disputes, problems, and content issues to help editors and other users, in preference to getting into conspiracy theories and drama, which probably doesn't hurt. Over time, acting to a high standard earns trust from a wide range of users, which has included admins, non-admins, and banned or sanctioned users alike . Nothing odd about it at all. FT2  10:03, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

• Marskell, mentioning Giano without relevance on Misplaced Pages is a poor idea because tends to put a penny in the Automatized Anti-Giano Cliché Minority Gang, especially on the en-admins IRC channel, where I've been lurking a little during my break. They apparently missed your remark this time, I'm glad to say. Not that Giano cares much, I guess, but it makes me type "fuck". (Plus, I don't want people running away with the impression that I've mellowed any from my wikibreak.) What *I* would call an interesting thought in the context would be a comparison between Giano's block log and Yannismarou's block log. You might like to try that thought experiment for size. Bishonen | talk 18:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC).

Heard my name mentioned - I am conducting a survey at the moment - how many check users and Arbs are chanel ops at IRC? 19:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

See this page. Jehochman 19:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Eleven. And why would you consider that a survey? It's simple checking of a reference source. Risker (talk) 19:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

What? 11 checkusers are IRC chanel ops? You jest? Giano (talk) 20:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

More if you count inactives. Check the list I linked to. Jehochman 20:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

FT2, Lar, Nishkid64, Bastique, Deskana, Jdforrester, Dmcdevit (rarely in channel), FloNight (rarely in channel), Mackensen (rarely if ever in channel), Yellow Monkey (rarely if ever in channel). It's unclear whether Newyorkbrad has chanop access, and he does have checkuser access but (in order not to blow up the wiki) does not use it. Uninvited Company, DavidGerard and Morven are inactive on the channel but retain chanop rights. JWales is rarely in channel, and I don't know that he uses checkuser though he does technically have the permission. Risker (talk) 20:22, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a chanop and never will be. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:47, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

That must make you feel very left out in Arb discussions. It seems the Arbcom is little more than a convention of Chan ops with check-user right. Most interesting.Giano (talk) 09:28, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

And all these people are check users? Goodness me! No wonder they were so frightened when they found out I was there too. Giano (talk) 20:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

So we are checked and then our names are bandied about on IRC? Giano (talk) 20:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh come on, Giano, Name recognition can do a person in an election. For example, look at all the candidates for President. None of the third party people have a snowflake's chance in Hades of being elected. Not because of their platform, but because nobody has heard of them. Not that anybody asked me.--*Kat* (talk) 15:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Bish, please note the first two words of my initial post. Je m'excuse, honestly. But the fact that Yanni has no block record is part of what makes it so awful. He wasn't behaving well, admittedly, but he got hounded needlessly. An admin, a massive content contributor, a three year editor. And he's asked to leave because of "damn" and his use of exclamation marks? Elonka would make Kafka proud.

This thread is going in different directions, so I'll say no more. Marskell (talk) 08:52, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'll add that a little bit of context never hurts, and that the quick archiving away of AN/I threads doesn't help matters: Yannis often used exclamation points in his everyday writing about minor matters, even with editors he has worked with for a long time. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The inescapable fact is that "civility" is not "politeness," and "politeness" is not prudishness, nor is it "least offensive to the most offended." The next person will object to "hell," and the one after that will object to "you're wrong," and the one after that will exclaim that all responses must be kindergarten-style positive feedback. Meanwhile, things like FAR are ruder than a wounded sailor's most irate rant. Utgard Loki (talk) 10:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Reply to FT2

Starting a new section to make sure this does not get lost in amongst, as Marskell says, the different directions above. FT2, you seem to be using this page, in my opinion a little irrelevantly, to inform Giano and Utgard Loki and the world in general about your integrity and how trusted you are by a "wide range of users". I congratulate you on your happy assumption that flattery towards the powerful can have no other root than sincerity. But, since you ask, I would actually prefer you to take any further statistics and reflexions to a more appropriate forum. None of what you've written above seems exactly to be anything to do with me, and this is after all my talkpage. Bishonen | talk 15:40, 18 October 2008 (UTC).

Quite right Bishonen. FT2 if you come to my page you can have the full benefit of my opinion on you and the present "Arbcom." Giano (talk) 18:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I commented on the view by a user, that one "has" to endorse peer pressure, even in a bad decision. I disagree with that. If you present it neutrally and with careful thought, you will be listened to more. I have enough experience of saying "this is a bad decision" to others when it is a case of bad adminship, to advise how to do it effectively.

The other post, which you mention, was to Giano, to clarify a point he found odd. I'm well aware Giano has a great dislike of arbitrators generally, many admins, and a number of other matters. If he finds something "odd", I don't want to brush it off, but give the background detail so he can see how it came about. Over time he may gradually realize people aren't "against" him, which is exactly what I've said in the past. FT2  23:30, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

FT2, you really can't take a hint, can you? I'm sorry, but you're kind of out of your depth in doling out the same hard-won psychological insights over and over to Giano, to me, or to Loki, with the same air of discovery. You're also in the wrong place. (Have you even noticed that this is my talkpage that you're on, HINT HINT?) What's the difficulty, really? I assure you you couldn't go far wrong with the short-short version, which goes like this: Please Go Away. All right? Bishonen | talk 02:37, 19 October 2008 (UTC).

The Russian Page

Thanks for all you are doing there, I have completely run out of steam on it, and cannot see the gilded woodwork for the palmiers. I don't think it will ever be FACd because it's not the sort of page they like, too long and laborious to read, will anyone ever make it to the bottom, butat least it will be useful for anyone genuinely interested. There is no rush to finish the copyedit as this sub page at least has to be in mainspace at the same time, and it is far from finished, barely started. Anyway I think the main page of the series has to rest for a week at least after completion before goining into mainspace. So take as long as you like. Giano (talk) 09:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I just had a conflict with you, so I'll stay away for a while - the Maples link you want should be to Sir John Blundell Maple, 1st Baronet - Never write a page without a least one baronet I always say - wil ensure at least 20 votes at FAC. Giano (talk) 15:04, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, right. It's the disambiguation page Maples that needs fixing, then, I'll do it later. Sorry about the edit conflict. I see Gatoclass corrected some typo, too. Well intentioned, of course, but... more edit conflicts. (You haven't removed the "in use" template, have you?) Anyway, I'm just going to eat and so on--it'll be at least two hours before I resume--so there's no need for you to stay away. Bishonen | talk 15:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC).

No don't worry. It's fime, I will go an edit elsewhere, and give Doc on IRC some more topics of converstaion for the afternnon, what would that channel do without me? Talk dirty to each other I expect. What a service to the community I am. I've several ages to work on, so they should all learn something. Giano (talk) 15:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that! Hope I didn't tread on anyone's toes - I just happened to see "The Rusian Page" header here and it tweaked my curiosity, so I went to have a quick squiz, saw a typo and fixed it before I noticed the underconstruction tag.

Very nice article BTW! Gatoclass (talk) 15:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

no problem - you are absolved. Giano (talk) 15:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks :) Look forward to seeing it in mainspace. BTW, did you ever manage to finish the "exploding houses" one? Gatoclass (talk) 16:02, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Sadly not, it is next on my hit list; I want it finished bt Christmas. Giano (talk) 16:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, I very much enjoyed the unfinished draft I read some months ago, so I'll keep a lookout for the finished product :) Gatoclass (talk) 17:07, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Could I prevail

As a fellow sister-editor could you advise me is a photograph 85 years old in copyright or not, I would so hate to fall foul of Misplaced Pages's rules. I have found such an interesting person to make the subject of my next eagerly awaited page. Miss Alice Reighly such a courageous and wise woman - quite like ourselves and little Mrs Risker. No man tackled her and lived to tell the tale. Catherine de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 16:04, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry I found a completely free image of the dear lady and her band of valient sisters. A page, Alice Reighly, all our fellow editors should read for their own safety. Catherine de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 16:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

And remember there is many a male wikipedian who could be described as "a slick, dandified cake eater and glossy lounge lizard." Yes, you Geogre! I have seen that arovering eye running over my poor defenceless body. Catherine de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 16:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I eat pie, not cake, as I grow in circumference and decrease in danger. Obviously, I could never be in a position of self-selected power at Misplaced Pages, as I've never found it satisfying or interesting to use it to defrock or denude or affect dishabille of girls, "girls," or women. Geogre (talk) 11:02, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Need help with essay

As this page is watched by Wikipedians of the highest caliber, I am asking for your (and their) help fixing a shabby little essay I started: Misplaced Pages:Talk page watcher. Thank you. Jehochman 02:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Bish.

Good to see that you are back and so full of . . . er . . . energy (almost used a crass turn of phrase to a lady). All the best! --Justallofthem (talk) 19:54, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, you're pretty full of it yourself! Bishonen | talk 21:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC).

Well, I am certainly full of "it" but that is not what I had in mind for you; all I was thinking about was fight and, um, verve - now there is a good word. --Justallofthem (talk) 13:41, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

"Vim and vigor" perhaps? Jehochman 21:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Full of nail polish, perhaps? I hope you like the little subtlety I added to your essay? Bishonen | talk 21:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC).

If laughter is the best medicine, you have added a year to my life. Jehochman 21:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

No Recommendation

Hey Bishonen, what do you mean by "no recommendation by nominator" in Aervanath's RfA?---Balloonman 01:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I must have misread your comment or you must have (less likely) modified it... it makes sense now.---Balloonman 06:36, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

LOL. No, I only posted the once, but maybe it was one of those fonts that need a basic caffeine level (in the reader) to carry through? Bishonen | talk 11:27, 9 November 2008 (UTC).

Thanks for the rollback

Thanks for rolling back the admin vandal. At least his vandalism is his purpose. I had begun to think that we didn't have any people editing Misplaced Pages anymore, that only -bots edited. Geogre (talk) 12:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

That was the bishbot rolling back, at your service. Bishonen | talk 13:44, 9 November 2008 (UTC).

Great Fire of London

Great Fire of London has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. --Kuzwa (talk) 05:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

"has been nominated," "are reviewed" leads to "return it to FA quality" (because, despite this being a "review," we're sure already that the thing isn't an FA), but "are not addressed" ("do what I say or else!") it goes to FARC, and then, at the very end, where weariness and attrition would never go, we get the final piece, which should have been the first and only piece: "I don't like something, and here it is." So, instead of talking to an active editor about concerns first, there is FAR first, threat second, and then a list of Official Immutable Powerful complaints. And people wonder why I'm so hostile toward FAR people. Geogre (talk) 10:17, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Echo. Giano (talk) 10:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Anyone click on "here?" It takes you to the overall FAR page. So, passive, passive, passive, threat, circumlocution, and then misdirection: golly, but that's helpful. That's the way to build an encyclopedia. That's the way to encourage participation. And, if the person with "concerns" is insane, is there any way to tell him or her so? Why, no! How about a template that says, "Your nomination to FAR has been removed as a drastic misuse of project space. After five days, you will have been allowed to edit again normally. Until that time, you have been encouraged to have become acquainted with scholarly and Misplaced Pages norms of editing, writing, and participation?" Utgard Loki (talk) 12:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Augustan literature

Augustan literature has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. —Mattisse (Talk) 21:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback

Thanks for your input at my successful Rfa. I'm already thinking about working on my content creation. Hopefully in a few months, I'll have passed the point where you would've !voted Support. If you have any more equally well-thought-out suggestions on how I can improve myself as an editor, I'd be happy to hear them. Happy editing!--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 20:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Shrug. The reason I opposed is that content creation is so relevant to admin actions. Iridescent perhaps put it best: "I don't think editors who haven't had the experience of putting large amounts of work into an article, and/or defending their work against well-intentioned but wrong "improvements" or especially AFD, are in a position to empathise with quite why editors get so angry when their work's deleted and/or The Wrong Version gets protected". I'm sure you're a nice guy and all, but it's a shame that your empathy with the writers you perform admin actions to will necessarily at present be so... theoretical. I also think Rlefse showed insufficient empathy with you. You might well have sailed through a second RFA once you had a reasonable amount of article experience. It seems unfortunate to me that a poor bureaucrat decision has instead left you with this highly controversial "successful" RFA tied to your tail. Bishonen | talk 16:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC).

Flood geology

From my own admittedly biased point of view, I see a potential trouble with your attempts to remove patent nonsense from the aforementioned page: If all patent nonsens is removed, what will be left? :-) JoergenB (talk) 17:41, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It's a point. But the subject may well deserve an article, with a full account of all relevant nonsense! I only removed a blatant self-contradiction, which was to call the antediluvian patriarchs non-biblical. If those guys and their begatteries are non-biblical, then what the is biblical? Bishonen | talk 18:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC).

Saddened by the Bishzilla Withdraw

I have to be honest, I'm sufficiently out of touch with Misplaced Pages that I have no idea whether it's a candidacy I would have supported; But regardless of whether we would have decided you had what it took to be an arb, you are a profound positive fixture of the 'pedia. So far, all our Arbs have been decidedly non-monster. I know that I, a supporter of diversity, was very excited by the idea of a candidacy that smashed through the glass-skyscraper. --Alecmconroy (talk) 11:06, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

LOL. Thank you, Alec. Bishonen | talk 11:37, 18 November 2008 (UTC).

Well, I can't say I find it particularly saddening at all, I don't beleive that monsters and the like should be allowed to run - especially monsters with such a dreadful speech impediment. However, I expect all those that were thinking of supporting that awful creature are now looking for a new figurehead. I have, of course, launched my own small and very humble candidacy where I shall be be promoting the rights of women, women's' suffrage and most importantly equal rights on Misplaced Pages for the gentler and fairer sex. That sweet Mr Wales has intimated his wish to see more women on the Arbitration Committee so I am valiantly answering his clarion call and doing my duty. Catherine de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 11:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah yeah. Well, Bishzilla has already thrown her weight behind your candidacy, so if you're lucky I suppose you may ride to ArbCom in her pocket. Bishonen | talk 12:08, 18 November 2008 (UTC).