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Glossary of termsFor the purposes of discussions on this page, the following terms are taken to mean the following. This is just a glossary. Where any guideline and this conflict, please defer to the guideline or edit this glossary to bring them in line: Notability ("WP:N") refers to whether or not a topic is presumed to meet Misplaced Pages's content policies and may have its own standalone article. The term is not a reflection of a topic's importance or merit; rather it used in the sense that the topic has been noted in published commentary from reliable sources independent of the topic itself. General Notability Guideline ("GNG") refers to the inclusion criteria in WP:N itself, that may indicate the notability of any topic. Failure to fulfil the GNG may mean a topic is not notable. Subject-Specific Notability Guidelines ("SNGs) are notability guidelines such as Misplaced Pages:Notability (fiction) ("WP:FICT") and , Misplaced Pages:Notability (books) ("WP:BK") which apply the principles of notability to particular subject area. Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) ("WP:WAF") is a style guideline that requires articles to describe fiction and fictional elements from the perspective of the real world, not from the perspective of the fiction itself. WP:PLOT is part of Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not, which says that "Misplaced Pages articles should not be plot-only description of fictional works" and requires articles to be improved to provide more balanced coverage that includes real-world context.

Fiction Survey 2008 draft

This is a draft of a survey. It is not finalized yet. I've created a survey to find out where consensus lies on various fictional topics. The first draft is in my userspace and is not ready to be presented to the entire community yet. I would appreciate any comments and criticisms and suggestions for the survey. This is an effort similar to Misplaced Pages talk:Votes for deletion/Policy consensus which was created to discuss recurring themes regarding entire categories of articles, before it was later moved to Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion. If people think it's a good idea, I could post it to Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (fiction)/Fiction Survey 2008 or Misplaced Pages talk:Centralized discussion/Fiction Survey 2008 and spread the word about it (maybe with the centralized discussion template, at the village pump, a watchlist notice, etc). We could even contact random editors to participate. It would be nice if at least 300 to 500 people could respond to it if it goes live. I would like participation to be as wide as possible. It could get very large, so if it goes live I think there should be at least 35 sub-pages with 3 fill-in-the-blank questions each (and each subpage placed in Category:Fiction Survey 2008 to make it possible to check related changes). It may be that an inclusion guideline for all fiction is too broad and guidelines for specific subjects could be created instead. The survey is meant to generate discussion on this guideline since it seems discussion has stalled. If you think the survey is a bad idea and think something else would be better, please say so. Please tell me what you think about it here, or on the talk page of the draft. Thank you. --Pixelface (talk) 20:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't this (generally) covered in the notability shindig they've had going? I'm not sure another poll is what we need. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 22:35, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

No. This survey is about specific categories of articles, something that Misplaced Pages:Notability/RFC:compromise does not cover. Misplaced Pages:Notability/RFC:compromise was created because someone misunderstood this very simple sentence in WP:N, "A topic is presumed to be sufficiently notable to merit an article if it meets the general notability guidelines below, or if it meets an accepted subject-specific standard listed in the table at the right." WP:FICT is a subject-specific standard. I don't even know how the questions in Misplaced Pages:Notability/RFC:compromise were decided upon, nor what conclusions can be made from it so far. If the arbitrators want a notability guideline for fiction, I think this is a good idea to jumpstart discussions on one. --Pixelface (talk) 23:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The RFC included how we use sub-notability guidelines like FICT; the entire course of the discussion leading up to it was about how FICT interacted, so what FICT has to become was covered by the RFC. --MASEM 01:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The relationship between "SNGs" and the "GNG" is the fourth sentence in the intro of WP:N: "A topic is presumed to be sufficiently notable to merit an article if it meets the general notability guidelines below, or if it meets an accepted subject-specific standard listed in the table at the right." That sentence is still in WP:N, so I'm having a hard time understanding why the RFC was started. Did people in the RFC say that sentence should be removed or changed from WP:N? --Pixelface (talk) 04:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The RFC was partially there to make sure it was still valid, if SNGs were still needed, or if SNGs should have more freedom to allow topics that the GNG would not normally allow. The wording at WP:N as it reads is presently unclear and so the RFC was to try to resolve that. --MASEM 04:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

To make sure what was still valid? The fourth sentence in WP:N? Misplaced Pages:Notability/RFC:compromise doesn't mention that sentence from WP:N at all. Instead, Randomran wrote "To what extent can subject-specific guidelines re-write or override the General Notability Guideline?" The idea that SNGs "rewrite" or "override" the GNG seems to have been made up solely by Randomran. I think the sentence "A topic is presumed to be sufficiently notable to merit an article if it meets the general notability guidelines below, or if it meets an accepted subject-specific standard listed in the table at the right." is perfectly clear. How is the RFC supposed to make Randomran understand that sentence in WP:N if the RFC does not even mention that sentence? How is the RFC supposed to find out what editors think that sentence means if the RFC does not even mention that sentence? And how is the RFC supposed to see if SNGs are still needed when there is no notice of the RFC at any of the SNG talkpages (WT:PROF, WT:BK, WT:MOVIE, WT:MUSIC, WT:NUMBER, WT:CORP, WT:BIO, or WT:WEB)? FICT wasn't even considered a SNG as of July 18, 2008, so how does that RFC apply to WP:FICT? What wording in the intro at WP:N is unclear? Randomran created an AFD on his first (visible) edit, and linked to WP:NOTE, WP:OR, and WP:OC, so I find it impossible to believe that Randomran does not understand that sentence in NOTE — a sentence that existed in NOTE when Randomran linked to NOTE on his first edit: "A subject is presumed to be sufficiently notable if it meets the general notability guideline below, or if it meets an accepted subject specific standard listed in the table to the right." FICT was listed as an inclusion guideline at NOTE at the time Randomran linked to NOTE. Am I missing something? --Pixelface (talk) 15:22, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the idea is right but the approach is not. As David states above, the RFC on WP:N makes it clear about that a topic (including fictional elements) can have its own article only when there is notability shown; the question mark we seem to be trying to figure out is when it is appropriate to have lists of non-notable elements to make sure they are not indiscriminate. Also the number of questions is going to be overly daunting to anyone coming into it; even with 10 proposals on the RFC, !voter exhaustion was apparent.

My suggestion is to focus this on two aspects: what is appropriate notability or sources that show it for singular fictional element topic articles, and to define what type of lists are appropriate when elements are non-notable. I would also avoid getting into too many subcategories - let users decide if "tv characters" need to be differently as general fictional characters in their responses, for example. The way I would do the survey based on is is two parts:

• "What sources are sufficient to show notability of the following?" and leave this to a list of 10 or 12 top level elements such as "characters" , "episodes or published serial volumes", etc. (Books and films are already covered by other sources). Let users expand if they think they need different notability requirements for various different elements (eg tv characters vs movie characters)
• "What type of lists of non-notable fiction elements are appropriate?" pointing to the same list of 10-12 elements above, but allow users to expand this as well.

Both of these would help , in light of the RFC results, to better address what FICT should look like. Mind you, while a survey, what results will have to be put to a consensus, and what may gain majority in a consensus will be vastly different. --MASEM 23:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

People can answer as many questions as they want in the survey. If they think one criterion should be applied to every fictional character, every fictional element, every fictional element, that's 3 answers they have to give. Of the two main questions in the RFC on WP:N, one pre-supposes that "notability" should be used when deciding whether a Misplaced Pages article should exist or not, and the other asks how subject-specific guidlines should be interpreted alongside WP:N. WP:N was created because "nn" was commonly used in deletion rationales. That would be like creating Misplaced Pages:Coolness because "lame" was commonly used in deletion rationales, or creating Misplaced Pages:Smart because "stupid" was commonly used in deletion rationales. "Exhaustion" in that RFC may be a result of the pre-canned statements users were asked to vote on. In the survey, editors simply answer as many fill-in-the-blank questions as they want. Where are the results of the RFC if it's not finished? As of right now, I see A1 (59 support / 129 oppose / 17 neutral), A1.2 (73 support / 69 oppose / 6 neutral), A2 (82 support / 57 oppose / 2 neutral), A3 (51 support / 48 oppose / 8 neutral), B1 (26 support / 64 oppose / 6 neutral), B2 (65 support / 17 oppose / 3 neutral), B3 (23 support / 30 oppose / 19 neutral), B4 (14 support / 62 oppose / 6 neutral), B5 (14 support / 53 oppose / 5 neutral), B6 (40 support / 21 oppose / 9 neutral), B7 (4 support / 0 oppose / 2 neutral). By my estimation, B2 appears to have the most support. But how would that change the content of WP:FICT? Will it change the content of WP:BIO? Anything in Template:Notabilityguide? --Pixelface (talk) 00:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Those are !votes. We are waiting for a second (and third, even) opinion after mine own on how to interpret all the responses, ideally from someone never involved in notability discussion, and that just takes time to find someone invested. However, I will point out that A1 - allowing any spinout without notability - is strongly opposed and perhaps the clearest one we can build from for now.

As for the length of the survey, I look at it and feel exhausted - I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to figure out how to deal with these specific areas, but by breaking it up as you have, it does bias the discussion - I would like to see input naturally develop if, say, tv characters are treated differently than comic book characters, instead of presuming a difference. Again, I'm trying to help here - I feel this is a definitely move to rewrite FICT, but we want do it right to end issues for the long future, and we don't want to invalid what global consensus has given us from the RFC. --MASEM 01:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the survey is fairly long, but fiction is a fairly broad topic. How does breaking it up bias the discussion? If an editor thinks there should be one criterion for every fictional character, every fictional element, every fictional work, they can give the same answer to those three questions or three answers to those three questions. If an editor thinks different types of things should be treated differently (like WP:POLITICIAN, WP:DIPLOMAT, WP:ATHLETE, WP:CREATIVE), they can fill in the blank. The survey doesn't presume a difference. It allows for a difference of opinions to be heard. I suppose if you want, the first survey could just ask 6 questions:

• Should one and only one standard be applied to every fictional character when deciding whether or not it should have an article on Misplaced Pages? If yes, what should that standard be?
• Should one and only one standard be applied to every fictional element when deciding whether or not it should have an article on Misplaced Pages? If yes, what should that standard be?
• Should one and only one standard be applied to every work of fiction when deciding whether or not it should have an article on Misplaced Pages? If yes, what should that standard be?

It appears to me there already are different standards for different types of fictional works (WP:BK, WP:MOVIE, WP:WEB), different types of people, and different things (see Template:Notabilityguide), so that's why I broke the survey up. Whether different types of fictional things are treated differently is up to the community. I don't see how the survey would invalidate anything coming out of the RFC. But even if it did, consensus is not immutable. So what is the global consensus at the RFC? --Pixelface (talk) 04:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I've already described why having too questions will lead to voter exhaustion but the other point to make is that we need to avoid creating too many rules (eg WP:BURO]). FICT should be as simple as it needs to be to reflect consensus, and thus we should start on the assumption of the most simplest rules and work inwards to more specifics as they are needed, which is why starting with as few questions as possible and letting the responders reply with what they think are exceptions is better than trying to exhaust all exceptions and making the reader decide for every case. As for the RFC, while the input phase is closed we're still waiting for a second and third outside opinion to review the comments to provide what they see as the global consensus but there are a few obvious things: that SNGs are still needed though need better scrutiny, that articles on topics have to show notability with respect to the GNG but at the same time the SNGs may help to delineate sources that can better show notability for a given topic, and that there's allowances for collecting non-notable topics into lists but these must be discriminate and avoid too much cruft. Thus, in relation to the survey you are trying to write, trying to ask "when is a character article appropriate?", by its wording, bypasses some of these RFC results; instead, the question should likely be "what sources should be available for a character to have its own article?" or something of that nature. --MASEM 13:03, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm with David and Masem, this seems to heavily repeat the RfC as it covers much of what was already covered there. It really seems to be trying to argue the issue again from another side when, as far as I know, the RfC is still on-going. Until that is done and the results finalized, should anything addressing the areas where consensus isn't clear be started. To do this now gives the appearance of "my point of view is not being supported, so I'll keep arguing it elsewhere" (i.e. it appears like a form of forum shopping. Let the RfC finish before arguing its results. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 00:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

What does the survey repeat from the RFC? The survey doesn't argue any issues. It's a survey where editors fill in the blank. The RFC is about WP:N. The RFC on N does absolutely nothing to rewrite FICT. If anything, the RFC on N is "forum shopping", because people took the conflict at WT:FICT over to WT:N. WT:FICT is the place to talk about changes to WP:FICT. I'm not "arguing the results" of the RFC on N. I don't even know what the "results" are. Four days ago the person who started the RFC, Randomran, asked "time to close?" and said "I think it might be a good idea to close up this RFC. Is there anyone who objects?" on the talk page. If you want the fiction survey started after the RFC on N is finished, that's fine with me. Right now I'm giving everyone a chance to offer up any suggestions they may have for the survey. If you don't want people to have an opportunity to review the survey before it goes live, you can keep on removing it from {{fiction notice}}. --Pixelface (talk) 07:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Arb. Break: Impact of WP:N RFC on FICT

I'm combining my comments to two of Pixelface's replies above since they're connected.

The whole issue with the failed FICT was two-fold. Inclusionists felt that FICT did not allow for fictional elements that lacked secondary sources to have articles, a statement that is in direct conflict with the basic principle of the GNG. Thus, one question raised is how immutable is the requirement of secondary sources in SNGs. The second issue with the failed FICT was the allowance for lists of characters and episodes and the possibly of spinoffs, all lacking secondary sources but supporting a notable topic; deletionists stating that it would allow for too much cruft. Thus a second question raised is exactly what is the nature of spinouts or list articles with respect to the GNG.

Those two questions, while specific to FICT, needed to be handled in the most generic manner possible as to make sure fictional elements weren't getting special treatment over other fields. Thus, this turned to WP:N, where specific guidance as listed above was found to be lacking. Thus, at the point of starting the RFC, it was considering the fact that WP:N was no longer a fixed point, and any consensus-determined changes to it would be put through another consensus process based on the results of the RFC. The lead statement of WP:N, that "topics either meet the GNG or an SNG" was found to be a point of contention in relationship to the first question above, so it made sense to verify what exactly that meant to editors. Based on my analysis (but I am not calling my analysis the authoritative one), it seems clear that "either/or" is not what people read this as, instead that "topics must meet the GNG; SNGs can define more limiting cases, cases where sources are presumed to exist, or types of sources that may demonstrate notability". So the first question, in how it reflects back to FICT, is that FICT has to support a strong assertion of the GNG - fictional element articles must be sourced, but we have a bit of leeway in what determines that sourcing. We should have the survey figure out what people believe to be appropriate sourcing or what elements presumably lead to sourcing to allow FICT to still line up with the GNG.

The second question on lists is also something not clearly lined out in WP:N nor anywhere else. WP:N applies to topics, not articles, and while spinouts were expressly disallowed by the RFC, the allowance for certain types of non-notable lists were acceptable. We know this is the case from countless AFD that merge non-notable characters and episodes into respective list articles. So while there does need to be a more firm statement that such lists are allowable when they are given strong criteria to prevent indiscriminate lists, we can safely approach FICT and determine what types of lists of fictional elements are appropriate as well, keeping in mind that consensus warns against lists that can grow crufty. This should be another point of the survey is to determine the bounds of what non-notable fictional element lists are acceptable or unacceptable.

But again, I preface all this by saying this is based on my analysis - I don't consider myself unbiased or separated from the discussion, only someone in the center that wants to get this all resolves so we can all go back to working on the encyclopedia, and thus I'm just listing out what I read to be the main points. Randoman is trying to get at least two more people to read through the comments to provide additional analysis so that we have a clear path of how to move forward on WP:N and subsequently the SNGs (including FICT). There is no reason that at the same time we cannot have your suggested survey to try to work out elements I've outlined above to be prepared for this, but the key is that FICT cannot move from essay to guideline until we've gotten WP:N cleaned up, so that there is no conflicting advice between the two. That is my primary concern (length being the other) of your current survey - it does not start from a point where the RFC leaves us but instead almost begs for allowing any and all fictional elements regardless of notability to have articles. If we start the survey from the point that we know that non-notable fictional element articles will not be allowed, and instead how to define what sources we can use for notability and what to do in cases when elements are non-notable (grouping to a list), then we're more in line with the RFC and can have a better shot at moving forward. --MASEM 15:52, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Masem, I think everyone here knows what the word "or" means. That sentence referring to the table (Template:IncGuide, later renamed Template:Notabilityguide) has existed in one form or another in WP:N since Radiant! rewrote it in September 2006. The fourth sentence in WP:N has always meant either/or. And it's never been intended to trump the results of an AFD debate. That sentence is not mentioned at all in the RFC so how could the RFC possibly be able to determine what that sentence means to editors? Your analysis is that "topics must meet the GNG"? That's obviously false. First, the GNG is not a policy and thus can only give recommendations, not requirements. Second, whole categories of topics on Misplaced Pages are allowed due to what they are: mountains, settlements, fish, etc. Your analysis is wrong. If that RFC has to do with all SNGs, why is there no notice of the RFC on any of the SNG talkpages? If what you're saying is true, the RFC at N affects WP:BIO and WP:MUSIC, but it doesn't affect WP:FICT at all — because FICT is no longer an SNG.

You say "spinouts were expressly disallowed by the RFC", but where do you get that from? I see 63% against "Every spin-out is notable." That's like building a man out of straw, knocking it down, and claiming you've won the boxing match. I see 58% support for "Every spin-out must prove notability." I see 48% support for "SNGs can define that some spin-outs are notable." I see 76% support for "SNGs can outline sources that assert notability" and that proposal calls a gold record a "source". That just redefines what WP:N already says: "A topic is presumed to be sufficiently notable to merit an article if it meets the general notability guidelines below, or if it meets an accepted subject-specific standard listed in the table at the right." If an album is certified gold, that is evidence of notability. If an athlete has competed in a fully professional league, that is evidence of notability (and supposedly a "source" now?). If a film has received a major award for excellence in some aspect of filmmaking, that is evidence of notability. So, when it comes to fictional characters, what is evidence of notability? Hence, the survey. Lists are already covered by Misplaced Pages:Lists and WP:CLN and WP:SAL, but the survey asks about lists too. The survey doesn't "beg" for anything. It asks editors what makes an articles on a given topic acceptable to exist. That is all. It doesn't use the loaded word "notability." Editors just fill in the blank. I suggested this to you over four months ago after you asked me to participate in resolving the issue. If you want, the survey doesn't have to ask about specific categories — it could all be fill in the blank.

I would say the RFC on N has no impact on any of the SNGs, because none of the SNG talkpages even know it's going on. In my mind, it's clear that Randomran started Misplaced Pages:Notability/RFC:compromise based on this conversation me and Randomran had during the RFC in June, and Randomran's misunderstanding that SNGs "modify", "clarify", or "apply" the GNG. The GNG began as a summary of the SNGs and was later replaced by Uncle G's "primary notability criterion." There is absolutely nothing in WP:N that suggests SNGs "modify", "clarify", "apply", "override", or "rewrite" the GNG. Since August 2003, articles about people have been judged against Misplaced Pages:Criteria for inclusion of biographies, also known as WP:BIO, (later renamed Misplaced Pages:Notability (people) by Jiy in December 2005 after this requested move) — not WP:N. Articles about people that do not meet BIO have then been judged against N. But ultimately it is editors, and not rules, that do the judging. This is not difficult to understand.

As the editor with the most edits to WT:FICT, I think you are in the center of this — and I have no idea why. You weren't an involved party of E&C2. But I think your heavy involvement here and the lack of progress is telling. Sometimes outside parties can help resolve a dispute. But sometimes outside parties do more harm than good. I appreciate your efforts Masem, but if you've been trying to mediate this dispute, I think it's safe to say you've failed, and you should withdraw. You started an RFC on FICT in June, I participated, and I sat out the rest of it because you didn't like my tone. If you want to see this resolved, you may want to consider stepping away and letting other people try to resolve it. At this point I think a sitewide survey would be the best way of doing that. Misplaced Pages:Notability/RFC:compromise does nothing to unprotect this page. --Pixelface (talk) 02:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I am trying to help you here make an effective survey that will speedily get us to a working FICT, not trying to hinder you. I just feel that if you present your current survey as is to the same people that participated in the RFC on WP:N, there will be a lot of confusion and disagreement with the RFC results. Mind you, yes, the RFC wasn't announced on the SNGs, but it was announced via a watchlist notice and got much more input from that than the other notices; however, the RFC is technically not closed and if you feel their input is going to make a difference, then by all means post a notice there. Remember, the RFC is a discussion, not voting, so looking at the pure numbers and percentages is not a direct measurement of what consensus says. --MASEM 03:01, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You can help by editing the survey into a version you consider an "effective survey." You've already suggested several questions. If you don't want to edit the survey, or don't think a survey would be productive, please say so. There are over 8 million registered volunteer editors on this site, and over 159,000 of them have made at least one edit in the last 30 days (according to Special:Statistics). There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to present a survey to just the people that participated in the RFC on N. I would prefer a random sample. If the RFC affects every SNG, I'm sure the people who worked on the SNGs would want to know about it. --Pixelface (talk) 14:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

A simple random sample of editors will suffer from extreme (non)response bias. There's a reason that we don't do things scientifically or democratically; it's impractical and infeasible. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 15:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I support a survey along these lines - I think the RFC showed a definite lack of consensus one way or another, and that, failing a consensus on the theoretical issues, the next logical move is to try to figure out what our actual operating procedure is and try to codify it.

That said, I think this survey is far too long, and far too demanding, and that it is not likely to work. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Draft proposal

Based on comments at the RfC, and looking at trends on AfD, I've worked out a draft of a new notability guideline for fiction. The goal of the guideline is pragmatic - instead of establishing hard and fast distinctions, or a general principle, it attempts to identify factors that garner de facto consensus, and to describe what will and will not be included. Thus it includes statements that, taken as general principles, are likely to be controversial, but that, in practice, seem to accurately predict outcomes.

The earliest draft is up at User:Phil Sandifer/Fiction proposal. I welcome thoughts on it - does this seem to be a useful way forward? Are there sections that need work? Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Small (edit) nit - large nit (since July??)

Could someone change "Articles on of works" to "Articles on works"? But, uh, this policy/essay/Fly agaric has been protected since July? Wow. Quick, people, the authors are gaining on you.... Shenme (talk) 05:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Fictional elements as part of a larger topic (FEAPOALT)

In order to bring WP:FICT in line with other Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, we should move to strike this section on the basis that it is unworkable and inconsistent with the rest Misplaced Pages:

1. The underlying problem with FEAPOALT is that it contains several assumptions which conflict with the overarching consensus at policy level, which has resulted in WP:FICT becoming an editorial walled garden that suggest that fictional topics should be treated differently from subject areas, such as people. For instance, if there is consensus that a living person is of unproven notability, then there is no evidence that the topic is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages in accordance with WP:BIO, then why should a fictional character be given a different treatment? Even if such a fictional element were to be included, there is a secondary issue that must be addressed: a topic that fails WP:N is also likely to fail other Misplaced Pages content policies as well, which leaves such a topic open to becoming potential deletion candidate at some point in the future.
2. The section Creating fictional element lists is also out of step with policy consensus. Firstly there is a mistaken assumption in this section that fictional elements which fail WP:N provide some sort of "encyclopedic coverage". However this goes against the principle that an article is encyclopedic if it notable and its content meets Misplaced Pages content policies as well. Secondly there is also a mistaken assumption that of individually non-notable elements can merit bing grouped together as a list, but this goes against WP:NOT which states that Misplaced Pages not an indiscriminate collection of information; merely being true or useful does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia.
   
3. My estimate that 95% of all articles and lists about fictional elements (characters, locations, episodes, event and articifacts) fail WP:N, and that the content of those articles fail one or more content polices as well as WP:WAF. If the coverage of fiction is to be improved, then WP:FICT needs to give useful (as opposed to misleading) guidance.

To make WP:FICT as useful guideline once again, we need to jettison these sections, as they are not workable in practise, and do not fit into the framework of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, but also because they are inclusion criteria for topics of unproven notabality that are less discriminating than other subject areas, and giving such a diverse and well sourced subject area such as fiction special treatment when it is not need is an error in judgement. --Gavin Collins (talk) 12:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

While I understand the well-meaning behind the section, the issue is here: "If consensus on a fictional element is that it is of unproven notability, editors should seek to retain the information where it can improve the encyclopedia." I understand that people don't want to sacrifice information, and in certain cases WP:IAR might allow such non-notable info to stay in the purpose of bettering the encyclopedia, but this line basically says that even if it's non-notable, people can stick it somewhere else, such as in a list. I think a more appropriate step is to try to find a way to work without the non-notable content; often, it takes some reorganization, but it's better than forced accommodation of topics. Each and every article 'saved' from the fire in this way should have a proper defense on why the info is being retained, even when non-notable. So, in short, frag the section. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 13:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Lists of episodes and characters are common practice of articles at AFD, and in line with the general consensus (though still waiting for an absolute neutral review) WP:N RFC that certain expections to the GNG exist for lists of this nature. And again, we come back to the question: if a list of characters or episodes that is part of an article (ignoring size issues) is ok, then what sudden magic distinction does spliting off that list to a separate article make it not ok? There's a reason notability refers to topics, and not to articles; articles are arbitary bounds to make information easier to read on screen. This is not to make articles on single characters or the like without notability ok - those are problematic and should still be trimmed and merged. --MASEM 14:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Lists of characters are okay in the sense that it is expected that there's a certain amount of plot necessary for readers to understand the fiction. Same thing with setting; these aid introduction and (ideally) should help keep the actual plot less confusing and jargon-filled (ex. in Halo the setting explains the events leading up to the game, the important things you have to know: "THESE ARE HALOS. HALOS BAD" et al.) Spinning off lists of characters from single games is a 99.99% bad idea, as there is no real reason the characters cannot be discussed in the work. The trickiness comes in when you're trying to track characters over multiple works, such as multiple games, novels, et al. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 18:51, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course - We don't have lists of characters from a non-series movie, from a single video game, or other singular works - unless, as in the case of the various Final Fantasy lists, the characters or the grouping of characters has notability on its own. These are the exceptions. Again, I am pretty confident that we can write a set of bright-line rules on when lists of episodes and characters are appropriate and when they are not. --MASEM 19:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I would think we'd need two criteria to be filled: 1) The characters must be demonstrated notable as a whole via reliable secondary sources, and 2) the list significantly benefits navigation and style of multiple articles. Not exactly the most black and white criteria, but if we have #1 we eliminate barely notable articles which will never get to a high level of quality. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 21:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• In answer to Masem, the problem with grouping lists of characters from different stories or episodes is that it risks giving rise to synthesis of differing (or even disparate) sources being created, whilst those that don't have any sources at all are likely to be original research.
  To avoid falling into this trap, the jumping off point for the creation of an article or a list should be notability, which is a good indicator of whether or not a topic is "suitable" for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. A "suitable" topic in this context means that there is sufficient real-world content, context, analysis or criticism from reliable secondary sources to write an article whose content meets Misplaced Pages content polices. If a topic fails WP:N, then it is highly likely that it will also fail one or more content policies, such as WP:NOT.
  Without trying to belittle the efforts of Phil and Masem at User:Phil Sandifer/Fiction proposal, they face an uphill struggle: a topic that fails WP:N does not have a lot going for it, and faces a difficult task of proving that it is not listcruft, or that it does not fail one of the content policies. A recent disussion about a fictional foxes illustrates this point: if a list is not supported by reliable secondary sources, how can you be sure that the list contents are categorised correctly? I would argue that it is very easy to find faults with lists that are synthesised or based on original research. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

• Don't be silly. You know as well as I do that the practical consensus on AfD for the sorts of deletions that you're suggesting simply does not exist. There's little uphill struggle in what I'm trying to do. Or at least, there shouldn't be - can you point to anything in my proposal that would support keeping an article that would be deleted via an AfD discussion? Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think this proposal fails both to find support in the recent RFC and with existing practise on Misplaced Pages. I readily agree that a revised and improved guideline is needed, and I've made a proposal to this effect a few sections up. But this amounts to another in a long list of attempts to ram through a view of notability that justifies controversial deletions that lack consensus. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

• If I should be so bold, but I think the consensus at the RFC that the concept of notability should not be disgarded, or that any exemption should be given to a particular subject area. My view is that if we have good rather than misleading guidelines, then contraversial deletions are less likely to occur. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

  Personally, I think the consensus at the RFC is that I was right, that policy should be changed to reflect my views, and that AFD practice should and will follow my lead. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 10:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

• What view are they? (I am not familiar with them). --Gavin Collins (talk) 10:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

  Well, I noticed a majority support in the #AMIB is right section, and a plurality (albeit not a majority) of support in the #Do the thing AMIB said section. ¬_¬ (Psssssst. Argue about what the RFC means on its talk page, don't let it leak out all over every related page.) - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 10:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the consensus was that a middle path between applying the GNG strictly to every fiction article and treating fiction articles as sub-articles needs to be forged. Certainly, given the divisiveness of the RFC, I think it has to be taken as a call for a more moderate path than either extreme in some form. So I confess, I'm disheartened to see what amounts to another hard-line deletionist proposal, particularly from someone who did not see fit to offer any comment on my more moderate proposal above. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

the idea that we somehow are creating a special case for fictional elements is ridiculous. Take a look at how many non-notable animals, plants, math theorems, buildings, and roads we have articles about - to compare the stringent requirements of BIO (which only exist because of legal responsibilities against libel) to the requirements practiced by the whole of wikipedia is a flawed argument. This isn't an OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument, this is a wake-up call that the whole of wikipedia does NOT operate on these boxed-in rules and that every single genera handles their notability requirements differently, so we should stop pretending that Fiction articles cannot. -ΖαππερΝαππερ _Alexandria 20:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it still is an OTHERCRAPEXISTS arguments, because your using crappy rules and articles in other areas to provide a justification for our crappy articles and rules. Just because it doesn't work out like it's supposed to doesn't mean the stuff shouldnt exist. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 21:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm unconvinced, of course, that OTHERCRAPEXISTS is prima facia a bad argument. Clearly we apply standards beyond WP:N in some cases. The question is what the appropriate standards for a given area are. Strict adherence to WP:N is a position that has marginal consensus at best in the practical matter of AfD - there are clearly other forces at work. Which makes sense, as WP:N was a guideline that staggered into existence as a triangulation among two diametrically opposed camps.

My end point being that notability disputes are notoriously thorny, and that they do not readily resolve themselves in principled ways. We ought remember that we have a non-trivial contingent of editors who are, in fact, firm inclusionists. Such editors do not hold a majority, little yet a consensus position, but we ought remember that, unlike NPOV and V, this is not an area where the underlying principles enjoy universal assent. To my mind, OTHERCRAPEXISTS is, in the end, a wrongly dismissed line of argument that points out the underlying fact that our inclusion decisions do not operate along strict rules.

And if nothing else, I point out that OTHERCRAPEXISTS is an essay with no policy weight, and that writing an essay dismissing arguments you don't like and getting it widely cited does not in fact invalidate any of the arguments. I would go so far as to say that one of the worst arguments in deletion debates is any citation to WP:ATA. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I should also point out that of the articles you listed, several may in fact be notable, but proper sources have not been added. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 21:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

That argument, of course, is easily extended to a lot of fiction articles. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

In which case supporters of keeping the article at AfD should add the sources, so even if its a crap article it meets WP:N. As to the OCE argument, I consider it generally bad because due to the open nature of the wiki, something existing doesn't prove or invalidate a policy, guideline, or position. If I argue that Sir Bad Argument doesn't exist, but there's an article on him, that doesn't prove he exists or doesnt. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 15:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Sources are by far the best way to show notability, I won't disagree. But they're not the only path. As for OCE, OCE is not prima facia valid. But it is still important - particularly when applied on a broad scale so as to show trends in inclusion as opposed to isolated incidents. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

actually, the examples don't matter, the point of the argument is that elements of fiction are held to the same notability standards as BIO articles, under the premise that all of wikipedia operates this way - but it doesn't. Misplaced Pages, in practice, adopts special notability requirements for each general topic. The deletion/merge side has consistently said the inclusionary side is wanting "special consideration," creating a "walled garden" from notability for fictional elements - it's a silly argument because the inclusionary side is only asking equal consideration.

as to my examples, there are literally hundreds of more organisms i could have cited which have no more than a passing mention in any text, and i know for certain there's nothing really notable about Rt. 173, i live near it - but if i was being pointy and AFD'd it, i'm sure someone would put in a history section and what locals are planning for the future, which is really just equivocal of me saying, "Mareep was created in XXXX year with the releas of Pokemon Gold." Same kind of content, doesn't increase notability, but it takes more words so it looks nicer as an article :) -ΖαππερΝαππερ _Alexandria 06:43, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• In answer to Zappernapper, I think you may be mistaken that "Misplaced Pages adopts special notability requirements for each general topic in practice", when in fact I think what you are actually suggesting is that different notability guidelines interpret the presumption of notability in different ways. GNG can be applied consistently across all subject areas because it is an evidence based guideline, but the subject specific guidelines make different presumptions about when or how GNG is met which are based only on opinion.
  The example which you give, which suggest that non-notable organisms are treated differently is not relevant, as such topics fail WP:NOT#DIR, which is why Wikispecies was created to accomodate them. Furthermore, the Lists of Pokémon like Mareep fail WP:NOT#GUIDE or WP:NOT#PLOT, and will probably be deleted over time unless real-world content can be added to them.
  The idea that notability can be presumed is a controversial area, because it goes against the principle that notability cannot be inherited/presumed/acknowledged. It is also impossible to write an article in the absence of non-trivial real-world content cited from reliable secondary sources, because such an article is likely to fail the content guidelines.
  FEAPOALT is just another way of saying that notability can be inherited, but all the evidence is going the other way, which is why we need to jettison this section. --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:54, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• I am baffled how presumed notability, which is in WP:N and thus a guideline, would be controversial because an ill-conceived essay talks about inheriting notability. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:14, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• Just to be clear, I was refering to presuming that a topic is notable without providing any evidence (i.e. reliable secondary sources are absent). --Gavin Collins (talk) 17:11, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• As was I. And I quote from WP:N: "Although articles should demonstrate the notability of their topics, and articles on topics that do not meet this criterion are generally deleted, it is important to not just consider whether notability is established by the article, but whether it readily could be. When discussing whether to delete or merge an article due to non-notability, the discussion should focus not only on whether notability is established in the article, but on what the probability is that notability could be established. If it is likely that significant coverage in independent sources can be found for a topic, deletion due to lack of notability is inappropriate unless active effort has been made to find these sources. For articles of unclear notability, deletion should be a last resort." That would be the establishment of a concept of presumption of notability. Phil Sandifer (talk) 18:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

But the only way to prove that notability can be established is pony up some sources. Saying "it's probable that there's going to be information about Foo" is a worthless addition to a discussion and doesn't prove anything; if a hundred or a thousand people say it's probable, that still shouldn't make a difference. We should be operating on what can be determined; if someone says "based on its mentions in X and Y, I think it's likely there's more sources out there and will be," that's a different puppy. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 18:46, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Bull. It is often very straightforward to anticipate the existence of sources. Demanding that sources be produced in a five day window only increases presentism and online bias. Faster and worse is not a model for improving articles. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• It is not straightforward at all. For instance, 95% of all articles on elements of fiction (characters, events, locations etc.) are of unproven notability and it is getting to the point where a presumption of notability for fictional elements is worthless. There is no evidence of notability until such point as reliable secondary sources are cited. However what is more important is it is just not possible to write encyclopedic article without reliable secondary sources. Saying that a topic is notable is no good if you have nothing suitable to write about it, and that is what the section FEAPOALT fails to take into account. --Gavin Collins (talk) 10:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• And yet AFD continues to be able to handle the articles and generally come to sane conclusions. The declaration that "there is no evidence of notability until such point as reliable secondary sources are cited" is untrue and ludicrous, and is small-minded and dogmatic thinking at its worst. I am incapable of believing that you are actually foolish enough to think it, and that it is not a case of simply setting the bar at such a height as to achieve a desired result. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Get over yourself Phil, just because the world doesn't happen to agree with you doesn't mean we are dolts. Explain how it is "untrue and ludicrous" for us to ask that articles prove their notability with sources? It's perfectly in line with WP:N's nutshell "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." It's objective, which is good. Saying "it's notable 'cause I say it is" is subjective. Not good for the purposes of applying a standard. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 18:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I've no clue if you're dolts. You could be being willfully disingenuous. I'm open to either possibility. It remains the case, however, that the proposition that there is no way to gauge whether reliable sources can be found for a topic short of actually finding them is completely and utterly stupid. You will find nobody outside of the bizarre bubble that is the Misplaced Pages editing community who would actually accept the proposition that there is no way to tell whether sources are likely to exist for a topic short of actually finding them. It is a completely and utterly moronic claim. I do not know if you are making it sincerely or because it serves a pragmatic goal of yours, but in either case, it is a completely worthless argument that deserves no serious consideration, which is probably why it has never gained anything resembling traction as a methodology for deciding even remotely contentious AFDs. Do you have a serious proposal in this area? Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• In answer to Phil, whether or not a subject is notable is not the only issue, it is what is presented the reader that is more important. Since you can't write an encyclopedic article without real-world non-trivial coverage from reliable secondary sources, why to we have to should we presume that we can write an encyclopedic article about non-notable fictional elements any differently? Readers want to see context, analysis and criticism in articles about about fiction, so what is the point of giving special emphasis to listcruft that is not notable? You have failed to answer this question for a long time now. In most cases, topics that fail the inclusion criteria WP:N also fail content policies like WP:NOT, and really this is what this guideline should be all about, not trying to pretend the opposite is true. I think we should build Misplaced Pages by standing on the shoulders of giants, rather than relying on hearsay, rumour or opinion, not just for the sake of notability itself, but becuase an encyclopedic article can't be written without reliable secondary sources. --Gavin Collins (talk) 21:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• Sure. I agree with you. The issue is that failing WP:NOT#PLOT is not grounds for deletion - especially given that WP:NOT#PLOT does not say no plot, it says more than just plot. That is, plot is still something we're supposed to have. We're just also supposed to have more. Deletion is a poor mechanism for expansion by any standards. I agree with you wholeheartedly - we have a lot of crap coverage of fictional subjects that needs serious attention. But deletion isn't the attention it needs, and the notability issue is fundamentally entwined with deletion.
• You know full well that I've been an active and strong proponent of cleanup of fictional articles. I led the fight to get rid of spoiler tags, I've been a strong advocate of out-of-universe style, I've pushed hard to work better with other Wikis to off-load accurate but inappropriate content in a non-hostile way, I've written guidelines on writing better plot summaries. When it comes to fixing bad articles on fiction, you'll find no better ally than me, and you know it. But deletion is a bad way of fixing articles. The worst way. It's the thing we do when nothing else will fix the article.
• I'd like nothing more than to be able to have spent the time I've spent fighting mass deletion of fiction articles for the past, what, six months? And that's just the latest flare-up? I'd like nothing more than to have that time back so I could spend it working towards mass improvement of articles. But as long as the biggest problem facing fiction articles is the prospect of deleting tons of content on topics that could prove notability, and where significant portions of the articles we have would still exist as part of good coverage on the topic, I don't see how I can, in good conscience, devote that time towards clean-up.
• And this is what gobsmacks me, frankly. Two sections up, I've got a proposal that I think would work. It puts the bar at a meaningful place, it puts the bar at a place that is close to the practical consensus we get on AfD, and it lets us move on to other things. There's a solution to this problem two sections up, but we're ignoring it in favor of a piece of fucking dinner theater that's never going to garner consensus! You know there's not consensus for the "slash episodes and characters articles unless they fully demonstrate compliance with WP:N" view. You know it, because you've looked at AfD the same way I have, and you've seen that viewpoint fail to garner traction on tons of AfDs. But instead of making comments that move us toward a viewpoint that actually would get the nod from the various and sundry parties involved, you're pushing a doomed endeavor.
• If we pushed the ball hard on getting the notability standards I proposed two sections up in place as a guideline, we'd have the bulk of this issue settled and we could move on to better projects. Please - I am begging you here - get behind a practical effort that has a shot at working, help me get this issue to bed, and let's move on to other tasks. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

←I'm disengaging from this. You have little right to accuse me of ulterior motives or stupidity, Phil, when you cried like a baby over the fact your shitty article got defeatured over sourcing issues. I have based all my arguments on guidelines and policies; you have not. Yet as you refuse to consider any alternative view besides your own, this discussion has no more purpose. I'm done feeding the trolls. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 21:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. That was all I was asking for. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• Regardless, I have yet to hear a reason why FEAPOALT should remain, and I will request its removal, unless anyone has any objections. --Gavin Collins (talk) 21:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

A plea

I made a long comment to this effect in the section above. But I'll try again here, and shorter. I have a proposal at User:Phil Sandifer/Fiction proposal. I think it's a good proposal. I think it works. I'm sure it can be made better, and I'd love to make it better. But I think, at the core of it, it's a good proposal that puts this issue to bed. It reflects the reality of AfD, and it's a midpoint between the strong inclusionist and deletionist standards.

So far, it's gotten little attention.

Maybe I'm wrong and it won't work or can't gain consensus. I don't think I am, but if I thought I was, I'd change my mind, so that doesn't say much.

But please. Tell me why I'm wrong, tell me how the proposal could be better, or tell me you support it. Because I'm dead tired of this fight, and I want to move on to improving our coverage of fictional subjects in more productive and rewarding ways than this.

Does the proposal work? If not, why not? And when can I move it to the project namespace and replace the essay version of this with a guideline-strength version? Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I like it. I'm especially glad to see the sections on "semi-reliable sources" and "bias towards commercialism". The latter, especially, is an interesting dilemma. While it's easy to write paragraphs of reception info for a Dr. Who episode, it would be close to impossible to do the same for shows like Golden Girls or even Friends. (Frankly, I think the reception section of that Dr. Who article is an example of a different kind of cruft. But that's a discussion for another page.) Zagalejo^^^ 23:19, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

We are still trying to wait on the WP:N RFC to get a third-party review ( I don't know how that's going), but I'm sure there's enough agreement by all but a few that what your essay states is accurate of the status quo and how things should be considered. I doubt doing what I suggest will end the issues but it is a step moving, but here's what I suggest you do:

• Archive the current FICT somewhere ("Proposed2008" or something).
• Move your essay into FICT, but tag it as proposed or whatever to make it clear its not a guideline yet.
• Make sure to add in all the other stuff that would be part of FICT (shortcut, etc.); make sure to provide a hatnote link to the archived version of the old one.
• Announce to WP:VP, get a message in the fict notice box. Wait for feedback.

Now while I would normally say be bold on this, we're talking a major change here. I know that at least one person will completely disagree with the version, that's too bad at this point since clearly the flow is against what that person wants, but we should make sure those that are regulars to FICT or WP:N or whatever are ok with moving it into FICT as to at least restart discussion on the subject as it does linger in Essay-space but its more than an essay. You may want to msg David, DGG, Kww, Randoman, Pixelface, and a few others and ask them to thumbs up or down for just getting it in here - we don't need consensus now on it, just that we want to know do they feel we have a good starting point from that version to a working FICT. Once here and more eyes start looking at it, we can get a better handle of what tweaks are needed, and hopefully soon incorporate anything from the WP:N RFC to correct it. --MASEM 23:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

On the whole, it seems okay, however "Semi-reliable sources" is completely unacceptable to me. It attempts to supercede WP:RS which just shouldn't happen. If there are no reliable sources providing coverage, it shouldn't have an article. Allowing such sources pretty much guarantees the article will never be GA nor FA, which, again, brings into question whether it should exist at all. I also can not say I can agree with the four prong test, as far too many people would use it to claim "main character, so they can have an article" irregardless of the lack of extensive sources, either primary or secondary, and the article will always be nothing but plot. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 23:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, "main character so they can have an article" is pretty explicitly verboten, no? I mean, I can strengthen the wording about having to pass all four prongs. As for semi-reliable sources, I think the problem there is more in the name than the concept, which is really just a restatement of using self-published sources as primary sources about their own views. Perhaps if I changed it to self-published sources? Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:24, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Should the issue of reliability even come into play when you just want to quote a review, like those at Television Without Pity? Zagalejo^^^ 00:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes and no. I think the problem is in "semi-reliable sources," which needlessly introduces a new concept when old concepts will suffice. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:24, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Collectonian on that. An article about fiction needs reliable sources. It's very bad to see articles having as references sites with spoilers or blogs. -- Magioladitis (talk) 00:14, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, though those sites can still be significant viewpoints without being reliable sources. That's an important distinction. It's also significant, I think, to distinguish between necessary to keep and necessary for GA/FA status. Certainly reliable sources are needed somewhere along the article's development. But on the other hand, I don't think anybody would dispute that TWoP (Or even Zap2It, which has both blogs and spoiler warnings, I believe) are sources that should be cited in reception sections, albeit using them as the self-published sources they are. I'll change the wording to clarify. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:24, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Per various comments, I've recast the previous "Semi-Reliable sources" section to make it follow more directly from WP:QS, which was what it was originally seeking to be compliant with. Does this address the criticisms? Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:29, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The first issue that I can see is a personal preference of mine: Under "Specific tendencies - episodes", you mention list articles, however I feel that there is a risk of ending up with hideous raw 'list of episodes' articles (just the names, airing dates, and brief summary), rather than what I always felt was prefered in the ideal case - things like entire season summaries (which may include the raw list within them, as a smaller part of the whole). Indeed, when done properly I feel that combined season summaries can actually offer far greater value than individual episode articles for many shows. This potential for added value is, I believe, worth exploring. Secondly, on "primary sources" regarding plot summaries, it may be worth stating explicitly that "commentary should not be offered", and stressing the "obvious" test. Plot summaries have classically been one of the major areas of contention certain groups have had with articles about fiction, so the more work done to ensure quality, the better. Finally, on the section regarding bias, I think that the issue of recentism/presentist is perhaps given too minimal a role, what with the header for the section entirely ignoring it. The other classic wikipedia biases also will come into play, especially with respect to non-english-language works. Perhaps a more general section title and a few changes to the wording would help. To be honest, I feel much of what I've written is personal nitpicking. It is generally a very good proposal, well done! LinaMishima (talk) 01:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

"hideous raw 'list of episodes' articles (just the names, airing dates, and brief summary)" are considered perfectly acceptable starting points for episode lists and have overall consensus. Season summaries do not, except where a series is long enough to actually warrant seasonal pages, and even then, season summaries are optional, not the most preferred. Episode lists with individual summaries are the most strongly preferred among all related projects, and changing that is not something this should be dealing with as it has nothing to do with notability but MoS, which is up to the TV and other projects that deal with episodes, including specifying length of summaries, lead length/content, etc. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 15:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

'List of episodes' are not considered perfectly acceptable - see my proposal at Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not/Archive_21#Wikipedia_is_not_a_Movie.2C_Book_or_TV_Guide. I think you will find that 'list of episodes' that fail to demonstrate notability fail WP:NOT, as they don't contain encyclopedic content, such as context, analysis or criticism relating to their subject matter. --Gavin Collins (talk) 21:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you really think there's consensus for that view? I've never seen it borne out on AfD, so I have trouble basing an inclusion guideline on it. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:59, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• Articles on fictional characters without notability get deleted all the time - see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Fictional characters for the ongoing discussions. --Gavin Collins (talk) 11:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• Singular fictional character articles, yes, are often recommended for merging or deletion after AFD, but lists of such are much less likely, and in fact are often the recommended merge targets for the singular characters. These lists are considered to be accepter from AFD and from the RFC on WP:N. --MASEM 12:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• I think you will find that list of fictional characters come up for deletion as well on a regular basis: have a look at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of minor Power Rangers characters. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• Sure, but you're the only one voting delete there, and it's obviously going to be kept. So I don't think that contributes much to your claim that the list articles are problematic. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:02, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Barring objection

Barring objection, I'm going to move the proposal discussed above to the project space, archiving the current version, and start seeking consensus for it as the new guideline. I'll probably do this tonight unless someone says I shouldn't. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:30, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• I object, on the grounds that if a topic or list of topics is not notable, then it fails Misplaced Pages inclusion criteria and content guidelines. I think the proposal fails to address the issue that you can't write an encyclopedic article without real-world context, analysis or criticism cited from reliable secondary sources. The proposal fails to explain why is diverges from WP:N.--Gavin Collins (talk) 21:37, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The proposal isn't seeking to explain - it's seeking to follow up on the actual consensus that we have. Do you actually dispute the fact that there is no consensus for applying WP:N strictly on fiction articles? Based on AfD, on the RFC, and on everything that has come before, do you seriously claim that there is consensus for strict application of WP:N?

The proposal, incidentally, has nothing on lists beyond an acknowledgement that consensus exists to merge upwards. This seems empirically the case - have list of episodes articles been regularly deleted for lack of notability? And it acknowledges that the guidelines listed are sufficient only for inclusion, not for quality. Again, this is borne out. But unless you can present some evidence that your view has anything approaching consensus, I have trouble taking it as a meaningful objection. The fact of the matter is, there is no consensus for strict application of WP:N here, nor for requiring secondary sources as a condition of inclusion in all cases on fiction articles. Unless you can show some evidence otherwise, then I don't think that you really have much grounds to hold up an inclusion guideline because it fails to meet a bar that is obviously not actually used in inclusion decisions. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:57, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

All right. I've imported it to the project namespace. I'm going to wait until morning to widely announce it to make sure that move doesn't spark an edit war, but if it's stable come morning I'm going to announce it to a few of the major participants in this debate, VP, and the Fiction noticeboard. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:02, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• I guess... I stayed out of most of this debate because I can't keep up with the volume of conversation on the subject. I like the pragmatic angle that the proposal takes but I don't like that the outcome is "we should lower our standards for sourcing and provide arbitrary metrics for inclusion". I know that is a gross oversimplification, but I can't see "context within the fictional world" and "complexity of plot" being wielded appropriately as decision rules. But it's better than the current page. Protonk (talk) 00:48, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• • Well, and to be fair, I don't like deleting episode articles at all. But I think that softened standards and those metrics are what we have, so we may as well write it down. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
    • I think it accurately represents common practice, and I like it. The discussion begins again. Yikes! - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:56, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
• It seems a bit of an empty request to ask for feedback and then ignore it. I see this latest proposal as another attempt to steam roll a proposal through without consultation. --Gavin Collins (talk) 11:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Phil asked for comments at least a month ago, all but one were positive in support of this, and now he's seeking to get a more global commentary on this. Since it is still "proposed" I cannot see how this is "steamrolling" "without consultation". --MASEM 12:25, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
    • I forgot, only positive feedback allowed. Clearly I made a mistake. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:28, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
      • No one ever said "no negative feedback". However, because there was only one person making negative feedback among all the other positive responses, clearly its appropriate to move it forward to gain wider consensus. Phil's not making it a policy or guideline by magically moving it to WP:FICT, just attempting to spur more positive discussion. --
      • OK, negative feedback is allowed, but it will be ignored. Clearly I have made two mistatakes. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:38, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
        • Negative feedback is perfectly allowed. However, I think your criticism is off base and does not reflect practical consensus. And I am skeptical of the value of objections that are clearly outside the domain of consensus viewpoints on the project. If you scroll up through past discussions on this, you will find plenty of places where I took criticism under advisement and revised the guideline accordingly. The problem is not with negative feedback - it's just that I think you're dead wrong here. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
          • Three strikes and I am out. I have committed the third deadly sin: offering feedback that is "clearly outside the domain of consensus viewpoints on the project". Gosh if I had known that, I guess I should not have made any comment at all. --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
            • Evidence that your viewpoints reflect consensus as it takes place on AfD would be far more helpful than sarcasm. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:21, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
              • I forgot I had to provide evidence that my viewpoint reflects consensus, as well as the other mistakes I have made. I must appologise, as I have really misunderstood your request for comments at the start of this section. Like Oedipus Rex, I ought to pluck my eyes out for making these misakes. --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
                • Eesh. You're up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Why don't you come back later and see if you can help us move to an understanding of what the practical consensus is, and how we can describe it. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:34, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
                • Gavin, the process we're trying to build is a compromise. I know from Phil's past inputs that he'd love to see full articles on episodes and characters, but this proposal admits to a compromise that these episodes, in WP's current atmosphere, will never gain wide-scale acceptance. Instead, he's written something that pretty much accurately reflects a mid-point position between "keep them all" and "delete them all" that still follows policy and guidelines with the hint of common sense that WP:IAR provides. Others from either the inclusionists or deletionists side have agreed this is a middle ground. Your input, however, seems to demand that we have to move towards your POV on the way these articles work; that's not a compromise. If everyone else is compromising, and you're not, then just as the internet works around impediments that they may find, so do editors here work around just roadblocks. Your input is useful to remind everyone that notability is still a critical factor, but clearly from community consensus through AFD and RFC, notability is not an absolute as you continue to insist. (if it was, it would be policy, easy as that). There is room for your input into this discussion, but that input has to be towards the goal of compromise. --MASEM 15:44, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
                  • In answer to Phil, it seems to me that you complained bitterly duing the RFC on notability compromise that it did not reflect your viewpoint, even though it was very wide in the range of propositions that it presented. Now I can understand why you don't agree with my views, but if you ask for objections, and you receive one, it seems to me you are duty bound to respond to it in good faith. I think I have been open to compromise, and was one of the first to praise you for the honesty of the proposal when you first put it forward. But if this is to remain a pretence in consultation, then say so now honestly, so I can drop out of the discussion knowing that other editors' views other than your own don't count.--Gavin Collins (talk) 15:57, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
                    • I complained bitterly in the RFC because a proposal based on my input had been twisted to the point where it no longer resembled what I or anyone else had ever put forth, and was then used as a straw man for the actual proposal. This had little to do with the width of proposals being offered, and everything to do with the fact that one of the proposals being offered was ostensibly mine, except without the actual benefit of being thought through.
                    • I confess, I do not see the analogy to your objection, which I responded to in good faith - I think that your objection is in error, because it does not seem to me to be based on anything that seems to me to have wider consensus. I recognize that your view is that WP:N should be applied strictly to all topics. However, A), that view does not appear to me to be borne out on AfD, and B) It is abundantly clear that neither extreme position is going to garner consensus, and that some compromise is needed. I am open to evidence that I am wrong on A. If, however, your position is "no compromise," OK. But that position seems to me incompatible with a consensus driven model, and frankly, I have trouble paying it much heed. It's clear that the community's will on fiction notability is not satisfactory to either extreme camp. Frankly, a failure to appeal to those who refuse any compromise from their preferred vision does not seem to me to speak meaningfully against the notion that the proposal hits practical consensus on the head. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:09, 23 November 2008 (UTC)