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| i appreciate huntingdog's careful read but the previous comments are misinformed and all the challenged information should stand. | i appreciate huntingdog's careful read but the previous comments are misinformed and all the challenged information should stand. | ||
| the article on cobalt yellow (aureolin) by maura cornman in "artist's pigments: a handbook of their history and characteristics" (national gallery washington, 1986) states (p.38-39): "Experimentation over the years has indicated that cobalt yellow is given to apparently capricious reactions. Thus, the evidence in the literature concerning its permanence is contradictory -- some reports suggest that it is extremely stable while others indicate that it may turn brown on exposure or contribute to the degradation of admixed organic pigments. An inconclusive picture remains, and cobalt yellow's replacement by more reliable and less expensive pigments has all but eliminated interest in further investigation of its properties and value as an artists' colorant." to that i would add that aureolin is also listed as suspect by the michael wilcox paint guide (for all its flaws) and thoroughly disapproved by the hilary page paint guide. my own lightfastness testing of this pigment (in watercolors) |
the article on cobalt yellow (aureolin) by maura cornman in "artist's pigments: a handbook of their history and characteristics" (national gallery washington, 1986) states (p.38-39): "Experimentation over the years has indicated that cobalt yellow is given to apparently capricious reactions. Thus, the evidence in the literature concerning its permanence is contradictory -- some reports suggest that it is extremely stable while others indicate that it may turn brown on exposure or contribute to the degradation of admixed organic pigments. An inconclusive picture remains, and cobalt yellow's replacement by more reliable and less expensive pigments has all but eliminated interest in further investigation of its properties and value as an artists' colorant." to that i would add that aureolin is also listed as suspect by the michael wilcox paint guide (for all its flaws) and thoroughly disapproved by the hilary page paint guide. my own lightfastness testing of this pigment (in watercolors) supports the view that it is unreliable and should never be used (see my results at http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/watery.html#PY40). | ||
| deference given to the 1999 ASTM testing results is unproductive, as those lightfastness tests include anomalous results. the wilcox guide merely parrots that publication (in an inappropriate extension of the ASTM test of a single pigment sample from one manufacturer to all the pigments from all manufacturers as used in all commercial paints); his "tests" concerned painting out a sample to see if it was "gummy". the hilary page tests, though outdated now, are much more reliable. my own tests of about 750 paints in 2004 are the most recent available, and already out of date. the larger point is that lightfastness is not a fixed attribute, like the atomic number of an element, but a continually moving target. there is no ultimate reference, but see my extensive comments on wilcox at http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/book2.html#wilcox1 . | deference given to the 1999 ASTM testing results is unproductive, as those lightfastness tests include anomalous results. the wilcox guide merely parrots that publication (in an inappropriate extension of the ASTM test of a single pigment sample from one manufacturer to all the pigments from all manufacturers as used in all commercial paints); his "tests" concerned painting out a sample to see if it was "gummy". the hilary page tests, though outdated now, are much more reliable. my own tests of about 750 paints in 2004 are the most recent available, and already out of date. the larger point is that lightfastness is not a fixed attribute, like the atomic number of an element, but a continually moving target. there is no ultimate reference, but see my extensive comments on wilcox at http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/book2.html#wilcox1 . | ||
| to the comment about "flake white" (actually, only zinc white or titanium white are used in watercolors): the blanching of color mixtures that include white paint is well known to watercolor painters, emphasized by michael wilcox in his "blue and yellow don't make green", and repeatedly uncovered in my own tests (see for example the naples yellow result: http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/watery.html#naples). | to the comment about "flake white" (actually, only zinc white or titanium white are used in watercolors): the blanching of color mixtures that include white paint is well known to watercolor painters, emphasized by michael wilcox in his "blue and yellow don't make green", and repeatedly uncovered in my own tests (see for example the naples yellow result: http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/watery.html#naples ). | ||
| == External Links == | == External Links == | ||
Revision as of 19:18, 8 December 2008
 | Visual arts Start‑class | ||||||
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Any particular reason why the link to handprint.com was removed? It's a non-commercial comprehensive description of watercolour materials and techniques. I've added it again: if there's a good reason to remove it please do. Anon2
Too many spam external links. Relevant links needed. -anon April 06
List of painters would be good
- ideally grouped by date &/or nationality Johnbod 17:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
the grouping "by date &/or nationality" is clumsy and counterproductive. the section headed "United States" seems stimulated by a single sentence about 19th century american painters, and includes subsequent discussion about watercolor tutorials (published in england) and industrial pigments (developed and primarily manufactured in europe). similarly, "20th century" marks one sentence about 20th century painters and then an extended discussion of u.s. regionalism, in particular california and ohio painters.
the point of this section was to trace the development of the medium as it progressed through a variety of specific innovations (new pigments, gallery acceptance, watercolor societies, amateur tutorials, better papers, etc.). arguably, even today, there are really no "national" traditions in watercolor painting, in the sense that all the national traditions one may want to identify hinge entirely on marketing, politics and/or painting style, and not on differences in the techniques or materials used by the painters. (this is an article about a *painting medium*, not about *art history* per se.) compare, for example, to the asian tradition of using entirely different brushes, papers, themes and pigments in scroll paintings, which are technically also watercolors or watermedia but which genuinely comprise unique techniques.
the "list of painters" idea is simply bad. i have inserted illustrative names only as markers for a specific stage in the development of the medium: here are some typical examples of what was being done. once you embark on the project of making a list, you spend all your time on inclusion issues (hi, jose fadul!) and boundary issues -- what about canadian national watercolor painters? what about watercolor painters who also use collage, glitter and acrylic paints? good luck with that.
i let these ill advised insertions stand so that some discerning wikipedia editor will acknowledge the inherent problem and remove them, or at least reorganize the content to make them less nonsensical. Macevoy (talk) 16:43, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Change in intro
I changed the intro from technique to method. Simple terms better. Smilegood
Format
I've tried to make the Format better and put in a See also section to make it easier for users to find information on the wikipedia. I will try and get back to work at this page again sometime. Artypants 14:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Spelling
Why is this page called watercolor, it is not an american article, surely it should be spelled in the correct as opposed to the american manner, that is, Watercolour.--Greatestrowerever 11:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
It was apparently begun in American spelling, and is not on a specifically Brit subject, so those are the rules. Of course W-colour redirects. Johnbod 12:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
- It was begun in the correct (that is American, also Shakespearean) spelling. No reason to change it to the incorrect Commonwealth variant, created by the Norman upperclass to make things less Latin, and more French. --Cultural Freedom talk 2007-07-31 18:54 18:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
revisions
i have substantially edited, corrected, augmented and fact checked this uneven and incomplete article, and added several references. random typos or lapses may remain. with the visual arts project in mind, i have tried concisely to describe the important techniques or technical issues in a way that the reader can accurately visualize and understand. i have also explicitly addressed several misconceptions that have been handed down from the 19th century. i regret that i do not have the wikipedia expertise to integrate the article into other aspects of wikipedia or harmonize it entirely with wiki style, but i hope a wiki guru will offer the charity of his or her assistance. i believe this is now the best single document reference on watercolor painting available from any source on the web. Macevoy 07:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)bruce macevoy
- Thanks Bruce. Your website, (handprint) is a truly remarkable achievement for which I am very grateful. Your website is better than this article because it contains advice and original research which are not suitable here. I expect that over time this article will attract editors because of the quality of the contribution you have made to it and will become a highlight of Misplaced Pages. Thanks again PeterGrecian 13:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is a really well written, interesting read, with a lot of useful information. There is a lot to laud as good, but I have two criticisms. It is meant constructively, to point room for improvement. I am not going to be editing this article, so take of it what you will:
- Tone. (See WP:TONE). Much of the writing seems to be written in an informal way that good in a magazine article or instruction guide (maybe Wikibooks!), but isn't a factually precise style suitable for an encyclopedia. There are subjective statements like "the best art papers are designated archival," questionable statements like "most watercolorists prize brushes from kolinsky (Russian or Chinese) sable", and speculation like "watercolors seem poised to enter yet another 'golden age'." (It's not really a fact that water colors seem poised to do this, it's someone's opinion. From WP:NPOV: "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves," and "It is not sufficient to discuss an opinion as fact merely by stating 'some people believe...' as is common in political debates. A reliable source supporting that a group holds an opinion must accurately describe how large this group is.")
- Source citation. (See WP:CITE and WP:RS). With so many references, and no footnotes with page numbers, it would be difficult to verify any individual fact. I think it would benefit from inline citations, when a particular book is only used for a relatively small amount of information. From WP:RS: "Articles can be supported with references in two ways: the provision of general references – books or other sources that support a significant amount of the material in the article – and inline citations, that is, references within the text, which provide source information for specific statements." Unfortunately, I think only Macevoy would be able to do this at this point, and it would be a lot of work.
my editorial assumption was that readers will, in the main, be amateur painters and therefore more appreciative of an informal tone rather than a deeply referenced thesis. it bears emphasis that we are primarily talking about a hobby and a very small part of the commercial art market; it's also fair to say, i think, that this is not an article about ayn rand and the points made are not heatedly controversial.
the archival paper designation is simply an industry standard, minimal assurance of paper ingredient quality and the likely durability of printed or fine art paper products, primarily against embrittlement or yellowing over time. however the "archival" attribute is emphasized in all catalog listings of papers offered for art retail sale, and is recommended in all published painting tutorials which discuss paper, as a paper attribute that painters should prefer. the same goes for "kolinsky" (sable hair) brushes, though note that "kolinsky" is not a regulated market or trade term and therefore is just whatever the brush manufacturer says it is.
the opinion that watercolors are poised for a golden age hinges primarily on three facts: the large number of baby boomers entering retirement, and the choice of painting as a retirement pastime; the recent expansion in both the number of watercolor paint brands and the increased number of different paint "colors" offered by each brand; and the forward placement and number of catalog display pages devoted to watercolor paints, as opposed to oil or acrylic paints, in art retail brochures. a few manufacturers also disclosed to me (at the time the article was written) that watercolors were among their fastest growing product categories.
finally, the few magisterial studies of watercolor painting, such as martin hardie's view of watercolor painting in britain or christopher finch's three lovely texts published by abbeville press, end at the mid 20th century or are limited to national traditions. most available sources about watercolor painting are knock off tutorials published in the highly perishable art instruction market. nearly all these books, to my informed dismay, simply copy from each other and perpetuate many errors or urban myths. this is, i think, an editorial problem that wikipedia cannot easily resolve. what are the valid references for tattooing, or japanese rope bondage, or dog fighting, or tantra sex? typically, either an "outsider" or reporter account that suffers from seriously incomplete information or polemical intent, or an "insider" or participant account that typically shows either victim bias or participant/partisan advocacy. the crux, it seems to me, is that editorial common sense and reasonable challenge and response have to suffice when the institutional and academic or journalistic conventions of reference seem insufficient for whatever reason.
thanks to all contributors for their comments and improvements. Macevoy (talk) 17:36, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Palettes?
"In the 19th century a six paint 'split primary' palette became popular and is still advocated by older painters." I have trouble believing that this claim of an age bias is a verifiable fact. As mentioned above, I'm not going to get 20 books to find the exact source, but it sounds like a non-neutral point of view (see WP:NPOV).
I never heard of "the hexachrome palette" before, and the only google mentions of the term are to 90 derivatives of this wikipedia article, plus a couple mentions about Pantone's Hexachrome(tm) process. Can anyone verify that this is currently the predominant approach worldwide, and that the terminology is standard?
Also, are the specific colors listed part of the definition of those palettes, or just examples? I think the split primary is a general palette (two of each primary), not a specific one. Googling the specific colors only turns up one corroborating source, handprint.com, and a spanish copy of handprint.com, which I gather from the above discussion is by the same author here. If the colors are just examples, clarification would be helpful.
-Agyle 22:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
reasonable points. i've inserted the comment "for example" in the listing of pigments. i've replaced "hexachrome" with "six paint" to remove trademark confusion. and i've cited the traditional three and four paint palettes for completeness.
all the painters or "experts" known to me personally, or publicly through publications or workshops, who also advocate the "split primary" palette, are over 50 years old. the deeper point is that the "split primary" palette is based (as far back as i have been able to trace it) on some detailed comments on subtractive color mixture in chevreul's "simultaneous color harmony and contrast" published in 1839 and quoted in my critique at http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/color14.html#chevreul . this text is relied upon heavily in a specific tradition of "color theory" which, in part because of the innovations of digital imaging and color printing technologies, and in part because chevreul's analysis is based on a complete misunderstanding of both color perception and subtractive color mixing, is no longer front and center in art school curricula. in other words, it's outmoded.
Paint Lightfastness
The Paint Lightfastness section seems to have a number of factual errors (and / or lack of references) It's got PY40 Aureolin as "should never be used under any circumstances" whereas that pigment is ASTM rated II and article goes on to say "painters should only use paints that have a lightfastness rating of I or II under the testing standards published the American Society of Testing and Materials (now ASTM International)." ! I've seen one particular artist on web advising against Aureolin but don't think its generally accepted fact that there is a problem with it.
"and paints premixed with a white pigment, including paints marketed under the names naples yellow,..." where does evidence for that come from - seeing as most whites (except flake white) are ASTM I - problems only arise if you mix with a fugitive yellow!
How about using Michael Wilcox "Guide to the Finest Watercolour Paints" ISBN UK 0 89134 4098 for this? It lists lightfastness ASTM and his research for all pigments and for specific manufacturers paints.
I'm considering making changes to this, but would like other peoples comments... -Hunting dog (talk) 11:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
i appreciate huntingdog's careful read but the previous comments are misinformed and all the challenged information should stand.
the article on cobalt yellow (aureolin) by maura cornman in "artist's pigments: a handbook of their history and characteristics" (national gallery washington, 1986) states (p.38-39): "Experimentation over the years has indicated that cobalt yellow is given to apparently capricious reactions. Thus, the evidence in the literature concerning its permanence is contradictory -- some reports suggest that it is extremely stable while others indicate that it may turn brown on exposure or contribute to the degradation of admixed organic pigments. An inconclusive picture remains, and cobalt yellow's replacement by more reliable and less expensive pigments has all but eliminated interest in further investigation of its properties and value as an artists' colorant." to that i would add that aureolin is also listed as suspect by the michael wilcox paint guide (for all its flaws) and thoroughly disapproved by the hilary page paint guide. my own lightfastness testing of this pigment (in watercolors) supports the view that it is unreliable and should never be used (see my results at http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/watery.html#PY40).
deference given to the 1999 ASTM testing results is unproductive, as those lightfastness tests include anomalous results. the wilcox guide merely parrots that publication (in an inappropriate extension of the ASTM test of a single pigment sample from one manufacturer to all the pigments from all manufacturers as used in all commercial paints); his "tests" concerned painting out a sample to see if it was "gummy". the hilary page tests, though outdated now, are much more reliable. my own tests of about 750 paints in 2004 are the most recent available, and already out of date. the larger point is that lightfastness is not a fixed attribute, like the atomic number of an element, but a continually moving target. there is no ultimate reference, but see my extensive comments on wilcox at http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/book2.html#wilcox1 .
to the comment about "flake white" (actually, only zinc white or titanium white are used in watercolors): the blanching of color mixtures that include white paint is well known to watercolor painters, emphasized by michael wilcox in his "blue and yellow don't make green", and repeatedly uncovered in my own tests (see for example the naples yellow result: http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/watery.html#naples ).
External Links
I've culled the external links section, which seemed to have accumulated a lot of individual artists sites. I don't think artist 'x' demonstrating method 'y' (or trying to sell pictures of same) are relevant links for this article. If anyone disagrees please discuss here: -Hunting dog (talk) 21:33, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Split article
The article is very long and I wonder if it is worth splitting into two smaller articles "history of watercolour painting" and "Techniques of water colour painting"? Peterlewis (talk) 20:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
- hmm, its 63kb which is a bit large according to Misplaced Pages:Page_size#A_rule_of_thumb in the probably should be divided category, just. "History of watercolour painting" sounds like a good idea, I'd beware of "Techniques of..." though the article's already a bit 'how-to' ish. Watercolour materials maybe? Oil painting is split Oil painting and Oil paint -Hunting dog (talk) 20:43, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Jose Fadul's image
I've removed this since it's obviously a photograph with several Photoshop filters applied (including the watercolor filter). A look at here shows that all of this guy's work is made of photographs that are heavily Photoshopped with various art/effect filters. None of it appears to actually involve the artistic techniques with which the images are tagged.
Further, a look at Jose Fadul shows what seems like a vanity page for a somewhat accomplished person, though with misrepresenting his artwork I'm uncertain how credible the contents of the "artist"'s page should be considered. 24.86.250.190 (talk) 20:19, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- have moved your comment to bottom of page where more users are likely to notice it as new section. I tend to agree with your assessment, it was link to his site that I'd removed on previous edit, someone seems to be on a promotional spree. Some of 'references on the Jose Fadul page do look dodgy but those are probably best discussed on that articles talk page. -Hunting dog (talk) 20:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
edit
I removed the following as it blanked part of the article in what I assume was an editing mishap
]s, gouaches and modern acrylic paints. The term watercolor refers to paints that use water soluble, complex carbohydrates as a binder. Originally (16th to 18th centuries) watercolor binders were sugars and/or hide glues, but since the 19th century the preferred binder is natural gum arabic, with glycerin and/or honey as additives to improve plasticity and dissolvability of the binder, and with other chemicals added to improve product shelf life. Bodycolor is a watercolor made as opaque as possible by a heavy pigment concentration, and gouache is a watercolor made opaque by the addition of a colorless opacifier (such as chalk or zinc oxide). Modern acrylic paints are based on a completely different chemistry that uses water soluble acrylic resin as a binder.
You guys can reinsert if you see fit benjicharlton (talk) 13:31, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Not a good move - look at the edit before yours. Always look at the history to try to see what has happened. Johnbod (talk) 23:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
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