Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:22, 26 October 2005

Past discussions on my talk page may be found on the following archive pages. My personal talk page archiving policy may be found at User:Jdavidb/Talk archiving

• /Archive1 (2005-09-28 18:32:28 UTC)
• /Archive2 (14:56, 7 October 2005 (UTC))
• /Archive3 (15:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC))
• /Archive4 (14:59, 24 April 2006 (UTC))
• /Archive5 (15:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC))

Cool

I like that. I've never made templates before; I'll have to explore that a bit when I have time. paul klenk

Believe it or not, I still am a bit new and am learning so much every day. (See my user page regarding my foreign pages.) I did take a look at your templates; I will give your procedure a look as well. paul klenk 19:50, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Joyce Carol Oates

You don't really have a clue about who she is, do you? (Really, seriously, you wouldn't be calling her a spammer if you did) Tanya! Ravine 20:29, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you...

...very much for that. You are very kind. · Katefan0 04:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

You know, to your evidence posted this evening -- up to an hour ago, I would've agreed with you. I was pleasantly surprised by our discussions on the Ann Coulter page and was hopeful that perhaps a corner had been turned. I had even considered entering the arbitration myself just to place that in evidence as real improved behavior, Paul Klenk's well-meaning list aside. But after this, the well is irretrievably poisoned for me. How does what I see as shameful behavior figure in to your feelings about his improvement? · Katefan0 04:50, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, it's a mixed bag. Saying he's improved is not the same as saying he's 100% reformed. I know he's not 100% reformed. I know he's not fully aware of and committed to our policies. (Yet, though I hope such a time can come.) I knew about his later actions on his talk page before I knew about the Ann Coulter conversation that I posted as evidence in his favor.

The problem with BD is that he is so quick to take offense. He thinks everybody's out to get him (most definitely me). He is easily confused and something as trivial as you trying to help by commenting out that weird comment is easily mistaken, in his mind, for an attack.

And in BD's mind, every offense must be avenged.

You mean like this? "I was done, until you started making baseless attacks. I won't let that stand unanswered!"-- KateFan) Big Daddy 07:33, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

It entitles him, in his mind, to satisfaction extracted either through some non-existent enforcement mechanism in Misplaced Pages's policies or through entitling him to make personal attacks with impunity.

Doesn't that completely describe why he's in RFAr? Things people have done to him, things that were totally right and benign according to Misplaced Pages rules and standards of common decency, have appeared to him to be attacks and he has responded by fighting back ... with all guns blazing and no holds barred.

And my statement above, "things that were totally right and benign according to Misplaced Pages rules and standards of common decency," leaves some things out, doesn't it? Because aren't there truly people here who have delighted in provoking him? They provoke him, he responds and digs his hole deeper. Yes, his responses are unjustified. But provoking him isn't justified, either. Where is it written in Misplaced Pages policy that personal attacks are justified in response to a personal attacker?

It's an endless cycle of anger and fighting that can only be broken if one person stands up and says, "I will not take personal attacks into account. I will not assume that is a personal attack. I will chalk it up to a misunderstanding and let it end with me." I think as of yet BD has a lot of trouble doing that. Jdavidb (talk) 05:03, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

As much as I respect your thoughtful comments, I think it's past the point where this much understanding is necessary. He's been around long enough to understand the way this place works, and even if he didn't, a person doesn't have to understand Misplaced Pages's policies to know that you ought to treat people with a basic level of civility and respect. The situation to me seems thoroughly untenable, though I admire your continuing attempts at bridging gaps, even as he attacks you too. · Katefan0 05:10, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Main thing I want to say is, hang in there and don't let it get to you! You tried to do the right thing, and it was misunderstood. And the reaction was bad, and unjustifiable. But the rest of us saw you do the right thing. He doesn't understand, but we do.

In a few days it won't matter: either he will have reformed, or the RFAr will have kicked him. Jdavidb (talk) 05:14, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's a nice narrative you guys have going but it's not grounded in anything even approaching reality. The first attack from my perspective came directly from Misplaced Pages in the form of an article I read about Bill O'Reilly that was incivil, full of cheap personal attacks and in general a fun house mirror caricature of what the man is all about. And I did NOT KNOW that wikipedia was the liberal bastion it is accused of being. I found out in short order after checking out both metafilter and free republic but orginally I was just shocked and outraged.

Is it possible you two are just so insular that you can't see the forest for the trees? That's what I think. Remember Katefan was an editor all the while that Bill O'Reilly article (as well as Pat Robertson, Ann Coulter, Karl Rove and probably countless others) were subjected to this incivil sliming.

So Misplaced Pages, whoever was responsible for overseeing content, which includes Kate, assaulted me first. And not just me but everybody. Fair minded liberal and conservative alike. By pretending to be something it wasn't - nPOV.

So, admittedly I was a little passionate about this assault when I first arrived. I mean my first few posts, including my now infamous post where I claimed to have 100 isps at my disposal (as does every other resident of the city of Ann Arbor btw) was literally made on the Bill O'Reilly page. Not his talk page. His article lol! That's how new I was.

So I learned the system and began making edits. The fact that both O'Reilly's and Coulters article are SOO much better today is largely because of my efforts along with Paul Klenk.

So I feel I should be apologized to for the way Misplaced Pages was and thanked repeatedly for the good I have been able to accomplish, despite the ENORMOUS RESISTANCE that both of you know I encountered in doing so.

And btw, Mr. Conservative JDavid, you did NOTHING to help in any of those articles and you presided at Misplaced Pages when they were literally slime pits. Can you point me to some articles about conservatives that were similarly slimed that YOU helped to clean up. I'd love to see the before and after.

So, I come in and find Kate CONSTANTLY jumping down my throat. She was caught telling Ryan 'just give him enough rope - he'll hang himself' in reference to a battle that RYAN started and I was still a BRAND new newbie and that NOT COINCIDENTALLY had to do with this EXACT same thing.

So spin it in reverse as she will, it is KATE who should have known better than to edit my words on my page without at least asking me.

I reject this whole hacking story and I reject this semantic spin that it was something other than a deletion.

In the end, I grant you that it might not be that big of a deal. But notice how she clammed up, accused me of being ugly and said she's refuse to talk about it anymore? That is until you came up with your revised standard version of what happened. Then all of a sudden she's not only happy to talk about it, she's effusing about it on your page and commenting more briefly on mine.

Bottom line: Kate knows I don't trust her. She can ascribe whatever Freudian motives she may want to way, it's not a newsflash to her. She should have known WAY BETTER than to pull this stunt and pretend it was an act of 'kindness.'

I don't buy it and she never should have done it. Ask Fred? Why Fred? That's suspicious too as he is one of the arbs. I think she wanted to point out the joke to Fred. But not as an act of kindness.

Trust has to be earned. Neither of you have earned it.

It's laughable that JDavid somehow thinks he's more intelligent than I am. But, I'm happy to let him revel in that conceit. Just know it's one of the least attractive aspects of your approach towards me and there's plenty of competition in that regard.

But there are plenty of people I do trust in Misplaced Pages. Honest and good people like the gentel Paul Klenk and the truly intelligent Gator1. Other railroaded people like ultramarine, ketoohwah and oldright.

I always WANT to get along and trust people. And I'm always hopeful that things will change. Even with you two. But, straight up, neither of you even come close to meeting that standard right now. And that's your fault...not mine.Big Daddy 05:58, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I was done, until you started making baseless attacks. I won't let that stand unanswered. As for the rest -- of course, nothing has ever been your fault. Right? · Katefan0 06:08, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

No, I think posting on Bill O'Reilly's ARTICLE (lol!) how mad I was at the 'liberal editor' was definitely MY FAULT.

I think engaging in what can only be characterized as tit for tat insults with liberals on ARTICLE talk pages was MY FAULT.

I think some of my intemperate comments on other's talk pates are MY FAULT (or at least unecessary.)

I am happy to accept the fact that lots of things are MY FAULT.

I'm not here to be perfect or faultless. I think even you would have to admit I have a very comfortable way of approaching things on the actual article talk page especially when I'm dealing with honest actors like JamesMLaine despite our political differences. I invoke Jimmy Wales words as much as possible because afterall it's his vision and yet people jump on me over that. So, I think there's been a lot of growth here and I honestly think that, despite my slightly rough around the edges way of expressing things (I am a guy remember. Not a weeny or geek like a lot of the other people who post here - no specific person intended:) so I do engage in a little chit chat. But I try to keep that on the personal talk pages and away from the articles. I don't see any harm in the guys having a few disagreements now and then. The main problem is culture. I come from a highly masculine conservative background and most of the others do not. It's more a cultural clash than anything. I understand that. I'm willing to work within a 'geek framework.' But look how they've treated me. Disgracefully and despicably. Like little church ladies who can't wait to 'make a case' against me and railroad me out of here. If anything, the way I've been treated is evidence of how SICK the culture in here is. Not just me but the way they've treated outspoken conservatives like me, oldright, keetowah, ultramarine is unconscionable.

I'm sorry, this is not about me and whether I'll admit I'm wrong. I clearly have and gladly will again. I think I just admitted I was wrong to you, Kate tonight on the Ann Coulter page.

This is much bigger. This is much more serious. This is about how Wikipeians treat people who are different.

You can cry and shry for the next 50 years that the reason I was treated so shabbily is because of my attitude or my demeanor, but I'm telling you that people in the real world, who will ultimately deciding this case, just won't buy it.

I mean look at people like that woohookitty dude who literally is drooling and salivating all over himself at the prospect of adding 'fresh new evidence' to my case. LOL! It's pathetic.

Or Ryan, who even the gentle Paul Klenk has deemed an insufferable bully. All she does is call everybody who dares disagree with her a troll. A troll this, a troll that. trollery, trollbating, trollfishing trollfoolery, shrimp, jumbo shrimp...popcorn shrimp....

Of course, they look perfectly sane in comparsion to the completely unhinged elemosynnary and his paranoiad musings which I still think he clings to.

Think about that for a second...

They were my welcoming committee at Misplaced Pages. Those are the ones who represented the Misplaced Pages community to me.

By that standard Kate, you're actually pretty cool. (Not that I trust you.)

But these people, as they would say in MY culture, are some very SICK MOFO'S.

Are people outside the Misplaced Pages community, when exposed to their insidious behavior, gonna buy the argument that I was the 'mean one?' Hmmm...

If JDavid really wanted me to believe he had my best interests in mind, he would already have a proven track record of helping other persecuted conservatives in here and he'd have a track record of cleaning up hit pieces like the ones on Coulter Rove etc. At least Paul Klenk has tried. But JDavid does not. So his arguemnt - 'Well I'm a conservative and I just get along fine in here' is unpersuasive. I'd like to see him take the lead I've established and follow suit. Instead he somehow thinks it should be the other way around. That gives me a chuckle I must admit. But JDavid, go ahead, give me a chance to say I was wrong. Point me to some articles...Big Daddy 06:46, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

And now you are attacking a fellow conservative. You know why he doesn't fight your battles? Because he believes in the *neutrality* of Misplaced Pages and he believes in working within the system. What a thought! Stay neutral, jdavid. We need more people like you who are willing to forget personal views occasionally for the betterment of everyone. --Woohookitty 07:05, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

You need to catch up my little friend. This isn't the first time that I 'attacked' JDavid. Why I've attacked him...let's see now...Oh, I know...ever since...he attacked me.Big Daddy 07:13, 8 October 2005 (UTC)