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Revision as of 21:06, 2 November 2005

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This article is not suitable as an encyclopaedia article, as it is in violation of Misplaced Pages's Neutral Point Of View (NPOV) policy, and is written in a very non-encyclopaedic tone. In addition if it's from a website, it might be a copyright violation. Please do something to address these problems, or the article might be deleted as per Misplaced Pages's deletion policy. - ulayiti (talk) 18:46, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Article completely rewritten

This article was completely rewritten after the article that the above comments refer to was speedy deleted after being listed for deletion. Capitalistroadster 12:26, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Nice work on the article. Ëvilphoenix 16:30, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Moving articles by cut and paste

User:Ghirlandajo, you are showing a bad example to the novice Misplaced Pages editors, particularly User:AndriyK. Now he should be completely lost about the wikipedia rules and may actually never grow to respect other people's works.

Now the discussion page is linked between Russian architecture and Architecture of Rus, but the articles themselves and their histories are separated. abakharev 10:26, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

User:AndriyK, in the event you would almost single-handily wrote an article of a similar quality and some alternatively talented user would suddenly move it to a strange location, I promise not to scold you for using cut-n-paste to return the article where it belongs. abakharev 12:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

POV?

User:Ilya K posted a POV sticker on the top of the article, but forgot to explain his grievances on the talk page. Unless he would explain them shortly, I intend to remove the sticker. abakharev 12:25, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

POV is in unifiyng Kievan Rus with Muscovy and Russia architecture. Ilya K 12:33, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

So it makes totally disputed all the sections of the article including the Soviet architecture and the architecture of Russian Empire?

Anyway the Ukraine and Russia share the common history and it is impossible to separate one of the other for some periods. Including the whole history of the Kievan Rus into the Russian history, without separating it onto the History of the Russian Rus and the Ukrainian Rus is a norm for all English-language text books I am aware of. Of course it does not prevent any History of Ukraine to include any references to the history of Rus including the history of Russian Rus. abakharev 12:57, 29

October 2005 (UTC)

It's better to make separate Architecture of Rus article Ilya K 13:28, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, write it then. I personally has nothing against a good article on the architecture of the Kievan Rus, then both Russian Architecture and Ukrainian Architecture could just refer to the new article and have a few milestones mentioned. I would still wait for the opinion of Ghirladajo, as he is the main author and his opinion matter most abakharev 13:50, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Guys, the only part that is disputed here is the title and whether one signle section belongs to the article, not even the neutrality of the section. There are special templates for that. User:Ilya K, if still unconvinsed, may add these templates to an appropriate section but there is no justification to put a disputed tag over the entire article. I repeat that the matter is not that I view his objctions as without merit but that they are obviously narrower than the general disputed tag. Also, please check the recent entries at Talk:Kievan Rus' for a very similar dispute. --Irpen 14:56, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

The POV to be discussed is clearly seen in the first sentence, which mentiones architecture of Kievan Rus, which is not quite well correspondes to the title.--AndriyK 20:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

For that, you can use the templates that question neutrality of the title and/or the particular section. But you can leave the global POV for now. Wait for kind of responses you will get. --Irpen 21:14, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I can imagine... ;) --AndriyK 21:19, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Still, as a suggestion, please consider the following: Template:POV-title-section, Template:Disputed-section and Template:POV-title which are more sort of narrow. or maybe none. As an alternative, write an article about Ukrainian architecture, include there the architecture of Rus' and I promise you, no one will bark. Also, your efforts to write an article about Ch. principality are highly appreciated. You can be sure it will be listed up for a move vote, but in any case your writing is helping WP. I hope this won't be the last article you write. Feel free to retract the load of shit you unloaded at Maidan but feel free not to as well. Your language speaks about yourself as much as about the others. --Irpen 21:33, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Vote?

Since there is little chance to convince user:AndriyK in anything, I suggest we put the appropriateness of the title up for voting. If we see a consensus emerging that the title is adequate, we will dump his tag. If not, we will discuss what the better name would be. In the meanwhile, I suggest AndriyK offers his suggestions on how to name the article. I bet his was joking with "Rus'" in the name of the article that included Soviet Realism architecture. I doubt he will take up my proposal to write a Ukrainian architecture article and have the issue settled this way. He can still contribute to Ukrainian baroque written by his perceived enemies of Ukraine. But maybe he has other good ideas. Objections? --Irpen 20:46, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Woud not you start voting about the value of π? Indeed, π=3 or π=4 is much more convenient that this crazy irrational number π=3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751...

This is not a matter of somebody's taste. This is a matter of fact. Kievan Rus is not Russia. And Russia is not Kievan Rus.--AndriyK 08:56, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

We already heard you, AndriyK. Reread above and answer the question, if you can. You are asked to offer a name. Reread... Also, while Ghirlandajo didn't authorize me to speak on his behalf, I can asure you that if you will write a Ukrainian architecture article and would start it from Kievan Rus' chapter and would just paste his text there, he would not object at all from what I can tell --Irpen 23:38, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Would it not be sufficient to put one brief sentence in that section explaining the meaning of Rus’? If it can mention in passing Ukrainian and Belarusan heritage without distracting from the subject, that should satisfy any reasonable East Slav. —Michael Z. 2005-11-2 02:26 Z

I don't know what would be sufficient for the user you have in mind but IMO such mention would definetely not hurt. OTOH, the claim that the even while this isn't added yet the article needs a global POV label is just ridiculous. Unfortunately, I am not too good in architecture. But those who are, would you please indeed add a word or two as per above? Thanks! --Irpen 04:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I am second that this a sound idea. May be we should wait a few hours for Ghirlandajo to make the edit himself? Since he has written the article, the last thing I'd want is to offend his sensibility abakharev 07:21, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, I think that with modified title of the first section now we can remove the tag. If anyone's unhappy with it and insists on reinserting it, propose a different title at talk for discussion. Throwing the tag an not proposing anything is the road to nowhere. Titling the article as "Architecture of Rus'" is just a bad joke. --Irpen 16:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Good article

In case it hasn't been clearly stated, very good work, G. —Michael Z. 2005-11-2 02:00 Z

Modifying text according to the title

I propose the following solution:

1. Do not change the title, but
2. change the first paragraph and
3. cut the first section according to the title.

(The section in its initial form is copied to the article Architecture of Kievan Rus). If you are not agree, feel free to revert, but propose another solution. Removing the POV template is not a solution.--AndriyK 20:08, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I restored the butchered text which I pretty much explained in my edit summary. Architecture of Kiev is related to the architecture of Vladimir-Suzdal and remove it to satisfy a fringe UA-nationalist POV is no way to deal with an issue. There are two ways to deal with POV tags. One is to find the mutually acceptable solution. The other one, if the first option fails, is to see where the clear majority stands and whether there is a clear majority. So far, several people expressed their opinion and I do not see anyone object but AndriyK himself. If with more people speaking up, the trend remains unchanged, we will get rid of the tag. If we get flooded with people from internet forums who will just express themselves and leave, as it was being done and Chernigov Principality votes, several people are already prepared to take the recent disatrous trends to armitration. I hope this won't be necessary. --Irpen 21:06, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo, I know it hurts to see a good article you wrote being butchered, but I think we are dealing with an issue properly now. Please, let a dissenter keep his tag for now. --Irpen 21:06, 2 November 2005 (UTC)