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Revision as of 17:25, 1 March 2009 editJehochman (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers46,281 edits →Breech of AE Sanctions: close this report← Previous edit Revision as of 18:42, 1 March 2009 edit undoPhilKnight (talk | contribs)Checkusers, Oversighters, Administrators125,473 edits →User:Yamanam provocative non-neutral, non-discussed, inflammatory page move in WP:ARBPIA article: rephraseNext edit →
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::::Well, I don't want to keep on discussing you, now at least, I'll leave it to the admins, I had stated my point. Seems you are already pissed off and I don't want you to say something that you might regret. My whole point is summarized here ], which you are ignoring. One last thing, why would I be sanctioned? I didn't do anything wrong, just assume good faith. --] (]) 14:30, 1 March 2009 (UTC) ::::Well, I don't want to keep on discussing you, now at least, I'll leave it to the admins, I had stated my point. Seems you are already pissed off and I don't want you to say something that you might regret. My whole point is summarized here ], which you are ignoring. One last thing, why would I be sanctioned? I didn't do anything wrong, just assume good faith. --] (]) 14:30, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


:::::Hi Yamanam, I agree your edits were in good faith, and you aren't going to be sanctioned, merely notified of the ]. ] (]) 17:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC) :::::Hi Yamanam, I agree your edits were in good faith, however I suggest that in future you use the talk page to develop consensus for major changes. At this stage, you aren't going to be sanctioned, merely notified of the ]. However, if you continue to be disruptive, then you could be topic banned. ] (]) 18:42, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


==Breech of AE Sanctions== ==Breech of AE Sanctions==

Revision as of 18:42, 1 March 2009

Click here to add a new enforcement request
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions

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Edit this section for new requests

User:Yamanam provocative non-neutral, non-discussed, inflammatory page move in WP:ARBPIA article

2009 Hamas reprisal attacks has been named so after consensus discussion in the talk page.

User:Yamanam started to change the name unilaterally:

Began here:, ended here .

His talk page comment, when questioned at first: . It is patently obvious to anyone that 2009 Hamas reprisal attacks is a much more neutral, balanced and encyclopedic title than the current one, which as pointed out by another user, is mangled english to boot.

I attempted revert to the original name, but a bot had fixed the double-redirect, so move-over-redirect is not possible. It requires admin intervention.

Besides immediate return of the article to the original title, I leave it to admins as to how to address the behavior.

But I must say that in the entire time I have edited WP:ARBPIA articles I have not seen a more crass example of POV pushing and provocative, destructive behavior. This is why I am takign it straight to AE. I cannot assume good faith in these circumstances, so I ask for uninvolved admin intervention.--Cerejota (talk) 13:17, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Cerejota, u r ignoring a lot of rules by taking this to the ArbCom, first, I was bold, second my reply to you in the article's talk page (which came before u posted this comment) shows my good faith, moreover, there is ignore all rules although it was not in my mind, and finally why didn't you discuss it with me, it is no the end of the world! you could have discuss it with me.
Now concerning the topic I chose:
    • The used sources refers to the victims here as collaborators which is another word for spies that I used in the title.
    • All of us acknowledge that Hamas is has full authority over Gaza, which means what they were doing is terminating, which is, more or less, an equivalent word for reprisals.
    • Most importantly, when I read the title, the first thing that came to my mind, reprisal against israel, but the actual thing that the article doesn't discusses reprisal attacks against israel, rather against spies or informants.
I can't see what is wrong with the current title, u should have informed me what is wrong with my title and u might be able to convince me.
And plesae take this in good faith: if there is a room at wiki for such a title: Antisemitic incidents during the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict then I thought there would be a room for this title: Hamas’ termination of spies active during the 2008-2009 Gazan-Israeli conflict I am serious, I can't see a difference between both titles! Yamanam (talk) 13:41, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
THis is WP:ARBPIA. As I said, I currently find it hard to AGF with you, so rather than go thermonuclear, I am here to get an admin to revert you. If they want to sanction you, their call. But this page must be reverted ASAP. We can have a discussion once this issue is resolved. I must point out however, that you just admitted to WP:POINT.--Cerejota (talk) 14:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
BTW, my post here came after your response, but not before I declared my intent in the talk page. I had already made up my mind.--Cerejota (talk) 14:02, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Well, I don't want to keep on discussing you, now at least, I'll leave it to the admins, I had stated my point. Seems you are already pissed off and I don't want you to say something that you might regret. My whole point is summarized here assume good faith, which you are ignoring. One last thing, why would I be sanctioned? I didn't do anything wrong, just assume good faith. --Yamanam (talk) 14:30, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi Yamanam, I agree your edits were in good faith, however I suggest that in future you use the talk page to develop consensus for major changes. At this stage, you aren't going to be sanctioned, merely notified of the ArbCom discretionary sanctions in relation to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. However, if you continue to be disruptive, then you could be topic banned. PhilKnight (talk) 18:42, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Breech of AE Sanctions

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I advised Colin4C on their talk page that the article was subject to AE sanctions here and outlined what areas were covered by the sanctions which they chose to ignore. I removed the chronology here and went to the talk page to state why here although they knew this from previous discussions as can be seen here in addition to here. I also pointed out that they removed the link to the article created by Rockpocket here and ignored the advice of both Angusmclellan which was offered here and by Rockpocket here.

Colin4C then made their first revert here and their second revert here both within a 24hr period.

The article already has an article on the chronological summary and is linked to article, which resulted from a discussion here, with advice offered here. It was acted upon here by Rockpocket, who answered questions on it here during a discussion on it here.

What I’d like to see happen is Colin4C self revert, that Admin’s tell Colin4C that the article does fall under the AE sanctions and they breeched them, and that if they want to add a Chronology they get consensus on the article talk page. --Domer48'fenian' 12:29, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

  • Asking for sanctions against Reporting a user who reverted twice in 15 hours when you yourself also reverted twice, albeit in 25 hours, sounds a little too much like gaming the system to me. Also, I am unconvinced that the article should fall under the Troubles purview. Black Kite 12:37, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Per AE Sanctions: All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, the Baronetcies, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under WP:1RR. When in doubt, assume it is related. I think that is pretty clear User talk:Black Kite don't you? As to "sounds a little too much like gaming the system" is a matter of opinion, does not change the fact that the sanctions were breeched. Or is this just more of the double standerds we've come to expect. Now do me a favour, tell me what sanctions I asked for here? Oh that's right, none. I think I'm being reasonable don't you? --Domer48'fenian' 13:14, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Refactored above. I think you're being reasonable, I just don't believe there's much to do here. If an edit-war develops or a single user is breaching 1RR repeatedly then I'd be more inclined to take action. Black Kite 13:19, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I find it difficult to view this post positively given that the reporter, Domer, has reverted twice too, and unlike (AGF) the reportee, is well experienced with ( gaming) the rules and knows that All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, the Baronetcies, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under 1RR. When in doubt, assume it is related. Moreover, Domer48, unlike Colin, has previously been placed already been placed on "indefinite" probation here, and got this removed after a being conditionally released from a later indefinite block. See also his record on Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/The_Great_Hunger#Enforcement_2. Admining by the book, this is a 72 hour to 1 week block for Domer (if we discount the extra hour), and 12—24 hours for Colin. I'd suggest talking to each other in good faith is something both parties might want to give a wee try for a change. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:19, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

My thoughts too. However, no problems with blocking either editor. Perhaps increasing blocks are the only way of making a point in this tiresome saga. Black Kite 13:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I left a note on his talk explaining to Colin he has to follow the rule. Domer, though possibly trying to game an editor not as clued up on AE matters into a block, didn't technically break the rule. I wouldn't disapprove of blocks here, but I'm also happy to let this go and see how both parties respond. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:36, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that User talk:Black Kite for striking you comments above it’s very much appreciated. Now Deacon of Pndapetzim the facts are that I did not breech the 1RR! That's it! Anything else is a matter of opinion. Now that’s going by the book. There is however the other book, the arbitrary powers book which has nothing to do with policies and which you are now citing from. No point asking for cites from it, since it’s made up as we go along. What happened to that indef probation on me? Oh ye it was thrown out for the joke that it was. And the Famine ArbCom, oh ye the other editor was banned as a sock abusing editor. Why not mention the block for 3RR on me were the blocking Admin lost their tools, and I only reverted twice on that occasion. We could mention the block for calling an editor a liar, along with countless diff’s to support it, the problem is it’s not against the rules to call someone a liar when we apply the double standard . So the question I have is, is the Famine covered by AE Sanctions. Deacon of Pndapetzim letting an editor know about the sanctions before they breech them is not game an editor, want to strike the comments like User talk:Black Kite or stick with the accusation. --Domer48'fenian' 13:43, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

  • No sanctions are needed here, yet. When you bring a report to this board, say what case has been violated and specifically which provision(s) of the final decision. Then provide a concise summary with diffs. The initial report fails, and looks to me like the continuance of a content dispute on the WP:AE page. Please, don't use this page in an effort to get leverage in a dispute. Use dispute resolution instead. Further instances of this sort of behavior by the involved parties may result in blocks on the parties as needed (including the filing party). That is the consensus of this thread. Jehochman 17:25, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:MeteorMaker appeals for unbanning

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Apologies for taking up your time with such a minor thing, but in the upcoming Judea/Samaria terminology ArbCom case, I'm worried the limited topic ban Elonka placed on me will be used again to cast undue doubt on my conduct. Upon finding it had been placed erroneously, Elonka promised to lift or at least reduce it after one week , then forgot about it and went on a Wikibreak. In her absence, I have been advised by PhilKnight to take the appeal here.

Details: On 15 February 2009, Elonka wrote:

MeteorMaker, you have been cautioned before about removing citations to reliable sources. Since you have started up again, I am going to make this formal: You are banned from

  • Making Samaria-related reverts to any article in the Israel/Palestine topic area
  • Removing reliable citations from any article in the topic area.

This ban is in place for 90 days.

Upon finding that I had in fact not removed any sources, the reason for the ban was changed:

MeteorMaker, you have been cautioned before about removing citations to reliable sources. Since you have started up again, I am going to make this formal: based on the recent pattern of reverts, and working your way through several Israel-Palestine articles and making Samaria-related reverts, I am therefore instituting a formal ban

I had not been cautioned about making Samaria-related reverts before the ban, and the number of Samaria-related reverts I had made in the preceding week was exactly two — hardly enough to discern a "pattern" . Both were in order to fix problems with claims that were either unsourced or sourced exclusively with highly partisan refs . Elonka confirms I had not done what I was originally banned for:

You are correct about the citation thing. I saw the edit summary, and that citations had been removed, but missed the part about you moving the citations to a different part of the article. I am amending my statement accordingly, and apologize for my error.

Elonka continues:

Regardless of the citation issue though, I am still concerned by the recent history that you've been showing of working your way through multiple articles and removing the "Samaria" term. This is provocative behavior, especially when done rapid-fire through multiple articles in a topic area that's already very difficult to keep stable. In some cases, I see that your change has already been reverted. It's good that you did not re-revert, but it's also a concern that these controversial changes were being made, without any attempt at discussion on the related talkpages.

I had not been cautioned that substituting universally accepted, neutral terminology ("West Bank") for minority partisan terminology ("Samaria"/"Judea") constitutes "controversial changes" and "provocative behavior" that may result in a ban. The "without any attempt at discussion" charge is not entirely applicable, as this topic is among the most well-discussed and well-sourced in the I/P field, and I've generally put a link in the edit summaries to a special page with a summary of this multi-talkpage discussion and the sources it has generated. , rather than repeating the same arguments over and over. Other editors have also stated that this discussion is best kept centralized; currently, most of the relevant terminology debate has taken place on TALK:Israeli_settlement and its archive pages.

Elonka concludes:

In terms of the ban, I'm open to reducing it, but let's see how things go for a week, and then we can re-examine the situation and see about reducing (or even lifting) the ban.

One week later, she announced she's taking a wikibreak, and I cannot reach her. Given that she has stated that she intended to shorten/lift the band, and that the ban was based on extremely loose ground in the first place, I hereby appeal to have it lifted. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:46, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, Elonka said she would re-examine in a week, not lift/reduce it in a week (which were given as options rather). At any rate, as Elonka is on wikibreak and the Arbitration Committee are about to have a fresh evaluation of such matters, I don't see any harm lifting it. That is, without prejudice to reimposing such a ban should it seem necessary to Elonka or another uninvolved administrator. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 11:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Jingiby and ARBMAC

Resolved
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Restriction extended for six months by Kevin (talk · contribs), accepted by sanctioned user.  Sandstein  22:46, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

See here for previous report from last week.

Jingiby (talk · contribs) is currently under a 6 months revert parole under WP:ARBMAC imposed by myself, which will nominally end in a few days. He has been repeatedly found to ignore those restrictions in the course of the last few weeks. He had two blocks for revert-warring in February alone. Coming fresh off his latest 1-week block, he violated the restriction again today, with this edit (ignoring the rule that he needs to precede every revert with an explanation on talk followed by a waiting time to allow for discussion. Note that I am the reverted party here, so I'm "involved".) In conclusion of my last report here, User:Kevin recommended that the sanctions should be reviewed at this point, "given their lack of success so far". So, here I am again with a request for such a review.

My own suggestion is we should at least reinstate the revert limitation, with a very strict reminder that they are going to be enforced. I wouldn't necessarily plead for a full ban – this editor has his lucid moments where he can edit relatively constructively. But he's definitely the sort of guy you need to keep away from the revert button for his own good. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:29, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I think we have 4 options here, aside from ignoring the problem:
  • Block again for maybe 2 weeks this time. I don't think this will be effective, as he will just start agin when it expires, as he did this time.
  • Extend the revert parole. Again, the lack of respect for the current parole shows that this will likely be ineffective.
  • A long (3 months or more) block.
  • An ARBMAC topic ban, for maybe 6 months.
I suggest that the last option is probably the best, although I can foresee a block in the near future for breaking it. I've asked for his thoughts on his talk page re all these options. Kevin (talk) 08:29, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Just note that a topic ban would essentially be the same as a full ban – this editor has a rather narrow field of interests; I don't think he's ever edited anything much outside the field of Macedonia-related disputes. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:53, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


I have extended the revert parole, with a warning of the consequences of a breach. Let's see how it goes this time. Kevin (talk) 10:12, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I seek Admin help in this case: White_Adept and Arb.com rulings

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:White_adept has openely defied all the arbitration rulings. I sincerely request somebody to look into this case.

Article:Sathya Sai Baba
Who: User:White_adept
What: Violated Arb.com rulings, Malicious editing based on Unreliable sources
Arb.com Case: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba_2
Notifications: :
http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:White_adept#Repeated_Violations_in_Sathya_Sai_Baba
Diff:
  • User:White_adept made 190 edits between Jan 8th 2009 - Jan 17th 2009 in a matter of 10 days.
User:White_adept edit history from Jan 8th 2009 - Jan 17th 2009
  • Comparison of the article before and after User:WhiteAdepts changes.
Article as of 5th January 2009 before User:White_adept edits - See the contents of the article below: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Sathya_Sai_Baba&diff=262058572&oldid=262058463.
Article as of Jan 23rd 2009 after User:White_adept major edits: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Sathya_Sai_Baba&diff=265883266&oldid=265883222

Background:

Sathya Sai Baba has been very controversial article which went through 2 arbitrations. During which several rulings were passed and editors were warned against using unreliable sources. Editors who were either strong pro or critic of Sathya Sai Baba were banned from editing this article. User:WhiteAdept has disrupted this article breaking many of the first and second arbitration rulings.

Arbitration rulings and violations by User:White_adept

1) Second Arb.com passed ruling on NPOV sources: Second arb.com greatly stressed on using NPOV sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba_2#NPOV_and_sources.
Unreliable sources used by User:WhiteAdept:
  • User:White_adept's main sources for major restructuring the article were Robert Priddy, "The Findings by Bailey" and Basava Premananda.
  • All these sources contain lot of POV views, personal experiences and are largely unverifiable and they violate the above Arb.com ruling.
2) Second Arbitration Robert Priddy: Second arb.com passed a decision saying Robert Priddy cannot be used. Please see arbitration ruling on using Priddy as a reference. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba_2#Robert_Priddy.
3) Second Arbitration ruling on adding poorly sourced information:
Second arb.com ruling says "The remedies in the prior decision regarding poorly sourced information remain in force and apply to all editors working on Sathya Sai Baba and related articles". http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba
  • Sources used by User:White_adept:
The Problem:
  • Second Arbitration's Finding of Fact:
Second arbitration passed a ruling saying Sathya Sai Baba is weakly sourced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba_2#Sathya_Sai_Baba_is_weakly_sourced.
  • User:White_adept has made it more weakly sourced by adding more POV sections based on unverifiable sources and unreliable stories.
  • Remedies from Second Arbitration: One of the remedies was to ban editors who were strong Pro / Critic of Baba and also other were warned about using poor negative sources. It says as follows "The remedies at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Sathya Sai Baba regarding poorly sourced information remain in force and apply to all editors working on Sathya Sai Baba and related articles".
  • Inspite of this ruling User:White_adept has used the following unreliable sources - Priddy, The Findings and Basava Premananda for his major edits to the article. Inspite of being reminding about his arbitration violations here http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:White_adept#Repeated_Violations_in_Sathya_Sai_Baba. He did not make any effort in removing any of the priddy reference which directly violated arb.com ruling.
  • When I notified User:White_adept his arb.com ruling violations on Priddy and his other sources this was his response - "Robert Priddy is a respected professor of philosophy and sociologist and his writings have been used as such in leading Indian skeptical journals such as Premanand's. Anyway - if you look at things from that perspective Narasimha biography etc are all violate WP:RS. But the sources such as "the findings" are being used to identify the perspective of the source on the topic - which indeed is of relevance and well within what wikipedia policies allow us to use. It is more acceptable because it is completely consistent with the mainstream perspective. White adept (talk) 19:12, 16 February 2009 (UTC)". He is not only a POV pusher but also a very strong critic of Sai Baba. His views on the talk page praising Robert Priddy, Basava Premananda - well known critic of Baba, his one sided biased editing rewriting the article in critics perspective and removing positive views on Sai Baba only proves his strong critical views of Sai Baba.
Current State of the article.
  • As a result of User:WhiteAdept major edits this article has major sections based on unreliable sources and filled with unverifiable stories.
  • The article is totally imbalanced rewritten in a critics perspective with 90% undue weightage to criticism of Sathya Sai Baba.
  • To remove these unreliance sources and bring some balance to the article is going to take a long time and effort due to the enormous baised editing by User:White_Adept.
Steps towards improving the article:
  • I have spent quite a lot of time familiarising with the earlier discussions and rulings. I sincerely believe that this article can be improved by implemeting Jossi proposals which arbitration commitee recommended.
  • But unless the unreliable sources are weeded out there can be no improvements to this article.
  • User:White_adept massive edits have clearly violated many of the arbitration rulings and WP:BLP policies and also caused serious disruption to this very controversial article.
  • I tried to remove Priddy references which was direct violation of arb.com ruling I was faced with repeated editwarring from User:White_adept. He added back priddy references with other edits. With this user's editwarring, constant POV pushing I don't think any improvements can be made in the article. I request either a complete Sathya Sai Baba topic ban on User:White_adept inorder to remove the unreliable sources and move toward improving this article as per the arbitration commitee recommendations.
I have notified User:White_Adept here http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:White_adept&diff=272631772&oldid=272108721. Radiantenergy (talk) 03:58, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
What specific remedy has been breached? What is the name of the arbitration case, and the remedy number? Jehochman 04:33, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
There are two arbitration cases. The more recent is Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Sathya Sai Baba 2 (closed Dec 07, amended Apr 08), the older is Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Sathya Sai Baba (closed Dec 06). I think the first two remedies in the older case (reinforced by remedy 4 in the newer case) are the remedies at issue - the complainer alleges that much of the new material is poorly sourced, that he attempted to remove it in accordance with those remedies, and that the subject of the complaint has been edit warring to reinsert the material. GRBerry 18:02, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I think we should issue a warning to the subject not to restore questionably sourced material, and to appeal the matter to WP:RSN or use WP:DR if they disagree. If they persist after a warning, then sanctions could be considered. Jehochman 20:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Message] has been left for the subject. Jehochman 20:05, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Could an uninvolved admin please review the closures on this board made by user:Jehochman?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
I am closing this thread because this board is the wrong venue for it. This board is exclusively for the enforcement of arbitration decisions. To request review of admin actions, including any made on this board, please use WP:AN or WP:DR. On the merits, it seems that consensus is that the actions at issue are not objectionable.  Sandstein  17:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can see they look suspect. For example #Baku87 could strictly be done as a mathematical calculation as to whether user:Baku87 has exceeded revert limitations in WP:ARBAA2 which are a maximum of 1 revert per week. He has done this in two articles yet Jehochman closed that saying "This report looks meritless. The first two edits complained about appear to be helpful rather than harmful". It is irrelevant whether the first two edits appear to be helpful, if they are not reverts of vandalism then user:Baku87 has breached ARBAA2. For convenience I am copying the reverts below:

Reverts at Shusha

Reverts at file:Azerbaijan_Democratic_Republic_1918-1920_Map.jpg

Incivility or no edit summaries at articles Shusha and Stepanakert

Also, this closure appears that Jehochman closes it as it was too long. I don't see that this is a valid reason to close that request. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:08, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Pocopocopocopoco is hereby banned from all pages on Misplaced Pages related to Armenia or Azerbaijan for a period of two weeks. The reasons are gaming the system, block shopping, and disruptive editing. Jehochman 04:17, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
You banned me from AA articles for disruptive editing, I have not made any substantial edits to AA articles recently.
You also banned me from AA articles for gaming the system and , I haven't gamed anything, I posted one complaint on WP:AE against user:Baku87 that I believed broke WP:ARBAA2 and saw that it was closed with an explanation that it "lacked merit". I asked for another admin to look at it and posted a polite note on your talkpage that I was doing so. It seems like you consider your own actions above review. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:37, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
There are teams of editors at work here: those who cause disruption, and those who support them through proceedings such as this one. I'd like you to take a two week break. Go work on anything besides AA. We need to stop the incessant battling on the articles and on this noticeboard. You are welcome to ask for a review of my actions with respect to you, but you are not welcome to post further threads here about other editors. Jehochman 04:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I do not belong on any team. Handing out a block for disagreeing with you is completely inappropriate. Blocking me from article space for a post made on WP:AE is also inappropriate. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Your disruption here is enabling disruption on the articles. This board cannot function when editors use it as a battle zone by posting multiple threads, and disputing every attempt at enforcement. You've been wikilawyering and gaming the system. Would you prefer a total block instead of a ban? I am trying to be as lenient as possible. Surely you have some other articles you can edit for a couple weeks. There are millions of articles still available to you. Jehochman 04:51, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)I have no problem working on other articles, if you look at my edit history that is what I have been doing and have made barely any edits to AA articles. You are wrong about my post here enabling disruption on articles, my post with regard to user:Baku87 was an attempt to stop disruption at the articles Stepankert and Shusha. Your quick closure of my complaint couple followed with a topic block when I questioned your judgement causes disruption to AA articles. What is happening here:
1) You made closures on this page that I questioned
2) When I used the dispute resolution process to have another admin review the situation you gave me an topic ban.
3) When I questioned your topic ban you threatened a total ban. This is completely inappropriate. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

What distinguishes your behavior from that of any other hard core nationalistic edit warrior? Don't you see that you are behaving just as they would? If you are not such an editor, prove it by walking away from the battle. That's what I am suggesting you do. Jehochman 05:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I do not need to disprove the negative. If you have an issue with my recent edits in AA articles then bring them forward otherwise refactor your statements and your block. Look, you got a little upset when you thought I referred to you as not uninvolved but as per my comments on your talk page, I was asking for another uninvolved admin. A good admin would admit that either they were wrong or that it was a misunderstanding and refactor. Please do so. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 05:15, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Your participating in this thread was not helpful. As I closed that thread, I issued a warning. You responded by immediately posting a new thread. We get it that you are upset that your friend VartanM was blocked. We get it that you are filing reciprocal complaints against "the other side" and using this board in furtherance of a long standing content dispute. Attacking an admin who makes a decision you don't like is not a "get out of jail free" card. Otherwise, any disruptive editor could just tack on a complaint about any admin that sought to control their disruption and claim immunity from enforcement by that admin. Please, don't assume that we are clueless. Jehochman 05:26, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)So I take it you were not able to find any disruptive edits done by me recently in AA articles. My edits at this thread were not helpful in what way? In that thread I tried to express the fact that VartanM was reverting a source that referred to Armenians as parasites? If I see anyone getting blocked for reverting a source that refers to an ethnicity as parasites I plan to speak up. Deal with it. You did not issue a warning at that thread, you said "if you have a case state it plainly with diffs". I did this and you put a topic block on me. Let me repeat for the last time, I did not attack you. Politely requesting review of your closures is not an attack. If you consider this an attack then perhaps you need a break from the mop. Do not pressuppose that my complaint at #Baku87 was a reciprocal complaint. My only reason for filing #Baku87 was that there was disruption caused at Stepanakert and Shusha by user:Baku87 and it needed to be stopped. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 05:47, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

You were banned for repeatedly filing frivolous WP:AE reports in furtherance of a content dispute. If you don't like it, I suggest you talk to an arbitrator. Jehochman 06:05, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I plan to file a request for comment on your admin behavior. I notice you are an admin open to recall, May I ask your recall criteria? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 06:20, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Jehochman? If your administrative decisions are correct then an uninvolved administrator would confirm their correctness. I have no history in the Armenia-Azerbaijan dispute and no knowledge of whether your decision is technically correct, but your action takes on an unpleasant appearance in the present context--even if you're right on the merits, it could easily be misread as an effort to silence criticism. Suggesting, procedurally, that you lift this topic ban and withdraw from this thread. Another administrator will confirm your actions if they are merited. (Fair disclosure: Jehochman and I do have a history; here's hoping this comment is accepted by all parties in good faith and on its merits). Durova 06:34, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Durova, I know you have issues with me. Surely if I am as wrong as you say, some other editors will notice and say something. It is not necessary for you to undermine me at every opportunity. You'll notice that I follow Thumper's law with respect to you, If you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all, and I'd appreciate you doing the same for me. What we have here is a hard core game player. This board is egregiously understaffed and very few admins are willing to wade into AA disputes, exactly because of the response you're seeing here. It is de rigueur for the combatants to attack any admin who tries to set limits. I happen to have been watching AA disputes for a long time without acting. Check my talk page archives for conversations about Hemshin peoples. I am familiar with the regulars and the nature of their conflicts. As you say, you are unfamiliar with the severity of the problems at AA because you have not been watching. It is a good idea to check the facts before criticizing. Elonka is on wikibreak, so she can't help. El C is also on wikibreak. Thatcher declined to get involved when an editor recently asked them for WP:AE help. I am not sure who else is available to step up to the plate on AA issues. Jehochman 12:41, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Durova, could I suggest that you stop making unhelpful comments in regard to Jehochman? There was the comment about pitchforks for daring to sugget FT2 shouldn't be an arbitrator, and now you are trying to argue he should be presumed wrong, until proved otherwise. He is an admin in good standing, with a more than respectable track record in ArbCom enforcement, accordingly his actions should be deemed correct until a consensus says otherwise. PhilKnight (talk) 13:16, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

this closure was fine, as the complaint brought no new information and there was no reason to keep it open. This closure, while also fine, could have been explained more fully. Each or all sides are entitled to see arbcom remedies applied across the board fairly, without being dismissed contemptuously (because the next admin may not act like that, and thus there will be unfairness). AE admins expect each side will try to get the other in trouble, but this is one of the most critical mechanisms for helping AE admins do their job. AE admins also need the scope to say enough is enough when it is necessary and discourage constant forum shopping in order to limit it to substantial complaints; this is why Jehochman's actions are acceptable. What Jehochman should have done is point out that ARBAA2 does not restrict all users, but rather provides that administrators are allowed to place users under restriction. Baku has not yet been listed at Misplaced Pages:ARBAA2#List_of_users_placed_under_supervision, and so Jehochman happened to be correct in saying the report was meritless. The question of whether Baku ought to be put on restriction might have been considered too. Regarding Pocopocopocopoco's restriction, I'd encourage Jehochman however to read Misplaced Pages:ARBAA2#Amended_Remedies_and_Enforcement, Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines. I say this because I don't see Jehochman following this procedure here, but I don't say it with force. The reason for the latter is that in practice the ARBAA2 ruling isn't working out fairly because in practice it is rather random which users are under restriction and which ones aren't; i.e. I've seen that while some hyper-nationalist revert warriors are on 1rr per week others can revert 3rr per day, as normal, which is grossly grossly unfair. So on the one han d I think the good AE admin has to take previous admin interpretations more seriously than the ArbCom ruling itself (i.e. restrict users as quickly as previous administrators have restricted them, not as ARBCOM said, unless of course all previous restrictions got reviewed), but on the other hand Jehochman should understand that restricting users so callously sets up a precedent that future admins might have to follow, and so care should be exercised. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 11:58, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I will not comment on admin actions here, I will only comment on Poco's report on Baku87, which he deemed necessary to submit twice. On Shusha and Stepanakert Baku87 reverted 216.165.12.158 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), who was User:Hetoum I, evading his parole. For this the IP was blocked for 2 weeks, and Hetoum I himself was also blocked for 2 weeks: The edits by block evading users are considered vandalism, and not counted as reverts. That's what I was told by the arbcom clerks. As for the 2 reverts on file:Azerbaijan_Democratic_Republic_1918-1920_Map.jpg, one can see that User:Sardur made as many reverts on the same file: If that merits any action, the same action should be taken against Sardur, who was edit warring over this map on a number of articles. Also please note that Baku87 is not under any revert limitation, and thus his reverts are not a violation of arbitration ruling. Of course, it is up to the admins to decide whether repeatedly posting this report after it has been rejected was worth the sanctions or not, but the report itself is baseless, imo. Grandmaster 12:36, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
(ec) Thank you for the advice, Deacon of Pndapetzim. Pocopocopocopoco was warned of sanctions some time ago and was listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan_2#List_of_users_placed_under_supervision. They have been a frequent participant in these battles. It is quite clear that they are aware of the need for high standards of behavior in this area. Their recent activities on this board have been to fan the flames, continue battles, and provide support for editors behaving badly (specifically VartanM). I agree that we need to start being much more assertive about stopping these sorts of games, and I plan to do so for editors on both sides of the conflict. Perhaps it would be better to replace the ban with some other sanction. We must discourage Poco^4 from filing frivolous complaints, gaming the system, block shopping, and turning Misplaced Pages into a battle zone. The two week topic ban seemed like a very mild sanction, but I am open to other ideas from any editor who is familiar with the situation (but not one of the combatants in the wikibattle). Jehochman 12:41, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Agree with Deacon of Pndapetzim about Jehochman's actions being ok. From what I can gather they are well within the scope of admin discretion. There is a significant problem of edit warriors attacking anyone who tries to deal with reports at WP:AE, and we should be careful to avoid a situation of driving away all of the admins with ArbCom enforcement experience. PhilKnight (talk) 13:05, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I also agree with Jehochman's actions in this instance. Pocopocopocopoco was warned of these sanctions long ago, and it was properly listed, however, he refused to abide by the sanctions and the restrictions and chose to instead troll, battle with other editors, and support editors who endorsed or participated in these actions. Furthermore, the user's habit of filing numerous frivolous complaints, gaming the system and so forth not only reduces the merits of this complaint, but draws into the question: How much are we willing to tolerate out of this editor until he is blocked for such pettyness? seicer | talk | contribs 15:27, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Then I defer to consensus with regard to Jehochman's actions. Also requesting good faith from fellow volunteers in this matter. The thread came up on my watchlist with an unusual title. It had gone on at some length with no other person stepping forward, and it was the end of my evening--the last post before bed. I was concerned about a potential blurring of the line between administrative action and independent review. There's no need to be bitey about a history that of course I disclosed when I posted. Misplaced Pages runs much better when volunteers assume good faith of each other, and suppose that each other's words can be taken at face value. Durova 16:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Fwiw (on my first cup of coffee as I type this--the hostile responses really do come as a surprise). My reaction to Jehochman over FT2 happened because Jehochman tried to start a siteban discussion on a sitting arbitrator. We all know that FT2 was unpopular, but that did seem to be a bit much. Hence, in part, my concerns reading this thread last night. Durova 16:33, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
(/me pours more coffee for Durova.) I did not propose a siteban on FT2. You must be thinking of somebody else. Jehochman 20:29, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vacio

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vacio (talk · contribs) has been twice placed on editing restrictions, but both times the sanctions were lifted, first time because the admin was given incorrect information that Vacio had no prior warning, and second time after Vacio promised not to edit war. However he continues edit warring on a big number of articles. Today he mass reverted pages without any consensus on using the place name that he prefers. He made 9 reverts at once: , replacing Russian empire with Nagorno-Karabakh, and the city name of Shusha with Shushi, despite the fact that when the city was a part of the Russian empire, it was officially called Shusha, and no such state as Nagorno-Karabakh ever existed. In addition, he made another controversial revert on Nakhchivan: , which is his second revert on that article during this week: As one can see, an official warning, and imposition of editing restrictions twice had no effect, and the lifting of editing restrictions was a mistake. According to the ruling of the arbitration case Armenia-Azerbaijan 2, Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. I believe it is time to place Vacio on editing restrictions once again, and this time permanently. Grandmaster 16:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

None of your diffs show that Vacio has done anything wrong. You are showing one edit for separate articles. If you have a dispute with Vacio then use WP:DR. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 19:12, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Edit warring across multiple pages is disruption. Grandmaster 07:02, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
My recent reverts which Grandmaster calles edit warring can be understandable for admins if they see how some users repeatedly refuse to first reach consensus then make changes and even neglect what was/is discussed in the relevant talkpage.
  • First about the name Shushi (Shushi and Shusha are equivalent forms of the name of a city in the disputed region of Nagorno-Karabakh). Some time ago, I notices that Parishan (talk · contribs) is engaged in endless edit warring as a result of repeatedly replacing Shushi with Shusha in certain WP articles. How terrible such an edit warring can be, admins can observe in the Gabriel Kafian or Arakel Babakhanian articles (there seem to be more reverts in the history of these articles than normal edits!). Then, as far as I familiarized myself with WP rules, when we WP users have differances, we should first reach consensus, then make changes. That is what I more than once noticed in Talk:Arakel Babakhanian, but Grandmaster and Parishan seemed not to see anything wrong in their actions. When I provided enough sources that, unlike Parishan and Grandmaster claim, the city at the time in question was equally called Shushi in English language sources, and when it seemed that their changes were not based on WP rules, I replaced the form Shushi in some of the articles, where they were moved by Parishan, not because I wanted to reach something by means of edit warring, but because I think that it is wrong to make massive changes without having reached consensus, not even having discussed it on the right place (which in this case would be Talk:Shusha). Btw. I would ask the attention of admins on the fact theat Baku87 (talk · contribs) and Baki66 (talk · contribs) nevertheless continued edit warring in the articles in question making reverts without even an edit summary.
  • As for my edits in Nakhchivan article, in fact Grandmaster himself reverted my edit which were explained in the talkpage and were based on WP:NC and WP:NCGN. Second time, I only restored the unexplained reverts by Baki66 who never participated in the ongoing discussion and not even left an edit summary. I acknowledge that in this case I should be more patient, but sometimes it is difficult to be so, when other users permit themselves to make reverts as much as they want.
At the time when I was twice briefly placed under AA restrictions, I was not familiarized with WP rules and I was not always aware that I was edit warring. Also, I ask admins to note that the last time I was involved in edit warring was because user Grandmaster and Parishan again and again neglected the discussion in the relevant talkpage, a fact about which I informed Rlevse and the reason why he lifted these restriciones, one can read in my talkpage. --Vacio (talk) 06:57, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
The reason why you were placed on editing restrictions was you edit warring across multiple pages. You promised to refrain from such behavior, and that's why you were given another chance. Yet once again you started an edit war across multiple pages, on which you were suspiciously joined by 216.165.12.158 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), who never previously edited, and his contributions are identical to yours, replacing the name of Shusha with Shushi and Russian empire with Nagorno-Karabakh in dozens of articles about the Armenia - Azerbaijan topics. Your POV pushing in this issue is clear and obvious, Shusha is the only official name this city had, be that in the Russian empire or USSR, see Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary: or Great Soviet Encyclopedia: , or even Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 edition: If you insist on using a name for the town that is different from the name of the article about that town (the article about the town is called Shusha), and using it outside of any historical context, you should have taken it to the dispute resolution, and not start a massive edit war with the support of anonymous users. Such behavior is extremely disruptive and should not be tolerated. Grandmaster 07:16, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be proper for you to wait first for the results of these case, then accuse me being connected with 216.165.12.158? Your aggressive way of accusing me for "edit warring across multiple pages" just shows very good how you understand WP:WAR, you claim that your version is the only right one and my version is POV pushing. This place is however not the proper place to discuss who is right who is wrong. It is quite possible that your version is the right one, the problem is that you need to discuss it and reach a consensus before making changes. What you and Parishan did was the very opposite and the result of such an behavior itself was the very reason of edit-warrs, something I tried to stop. I am sure it is not your accusations that admins will take into account by making decisions. --Vacio (talk) 08:14, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I never said that you and IP were the same person, so what's the point in CU? I did discuss it, and you started an edit war across multiple pages, in which you were joined by the IP. Grandmaster 13:02, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I would ask admins to take notice of the fact that user Grandmaster accuses me for things himself is chargeable for.
  • According to Grandmaster I am guilty for 1) replacing Russian empire with Karabakh and Shusha with Shushi, 2) POV pushing 3) massive edit war.
  • However in Ahmad Agdamski, Latif Karimov, Yusif Vazir Chamanzaminli and several other articles Grandmaster was involved in a long edit warring in the same context of Shushi/Shusha. Note especially these last 3 reverts of him () which result in the statement as if Shushi has been part of Azerbaijan in the period between 1884 and 1906, when Azerbaijan did not exist at all. Well, those edits are evident "POV pushing" and Grandmaster knows very well that they do not solve the issue, but are rather a cause of a new continued edit war.
  • Grandmaster is involved in an edit war in which a dubious map is 10 times removed and replaced from the ADR article within 3 days.
I am worried about that a user who just made flagrant POV edits and has engaged in edit war demands that I am placed under permantent edit restircions. He accuses me of massive edit war when I actually tried to stop it and to urge other users to reach consensus before massive chenges. I ask admins that they do not leave this case without a proper response because then he uses arbcom cases to threaten me if we have differences. --Vacio (talk) 09:18, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
I never reverted any article more than once a week, unlike yourself. And reverting massive vandalism by anon IP is not edit warring, edit warring are all those undiscussed POV changes and reverts in dozens of articles that the IP made within the last couple of days. Grandmaster 06:22, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

AA2 and new wave of disruption

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I really have difficulty with VartanM’s block; he did not act anywhere near as bad as Parishan has. Since when should someone be blocked for reverting an obvious revert material, and given the circumstances, vandalism? Did any administrator check what the content of the revert was? This user (Parishan) has no use of other users comment to even engage in debating. The article for which he was reported shows Parishan engaging in fringe theory pushing. This is what Parishan was inserting: Azeri served as a lingua franca throughout most parts of Transcaucasia (except the Black Sea coast), in Southern Dagestan, Turkish Armenia, Kurdistan and Northern Persia from the sixteenth century to the early twentieth century. It is unlikelly that Parishan could not have known that the material he was inserting was bogus. Let’s see the two sources he has used, first source: Nasledie Chingiskhana by Nikolai Trubetzkoy. Agraf, 1999; p. 478. In those pages you will also find Armenians being called: parasite and slave. Parishan’s cherry picking and twisting of sources is again at the center of the problem. See under which context it was said: However, it is far from unimportant, what languages to precisely select for this purpose. The author has a policy of instoring one language in that region. He claims Azeri being a good choice because, from his words: larger part of Transcaucasia (besides the Black Sea coast) and, furthermore, in Turkish Armenia, Kurdistan and in northern . Parishan’s version which reads: from the sixteenth century to the early twentieth century is supposed to be sourced with this. But the work was published in 1925, and was speaking about a period when there were no Armenians left in Turkish Armenia. So how can his wording even be justifiable, how do you debate with someone who will bring you in a circular discussion about an obvious revert material? More is that the writer, while a credible linguist is not credible here for two reasons, first because the work, which support his theories about the Muscovite princes (he was one such prince) claims them to be the heirs of the Chinggisid rulers. (see here). The second reason is that it was the interest of Russian authors during his period to associate Turkish people with Azeri, because Russia was still laying claims against Turkey. But the author also says that Azeri is a Turkish language. In any case, Turkish Armenia refers to pre modern Eastern Turkey and on top of that, Parishan added a date range which was not supported by that source, adding the date range shows that he knew to what period Turkish Armenia referred too. The second source used by Parishan, J. N. Postgate. Languages of Iraq. British School of Archaeology in Iraq, 2007; ISBN 090347221X; p. 164, does not even require an address to, as it does not support his wording... worst, is that Parishan quoted of it in the talkpage, left down junk of text, replaced by three dots. Problem is that without retrieving what is in those three dots, the source which already does not support his claim, becomes totally useless. Adding insult to the injury, the author himself place the term Azerbaijani in quotation marks. We are supposed to debate with a user, who time and again misuses sources, and when revert has no problem reverting. I or any other users would have reverted Parishan, I don't see why under those circumstances VartanM should be punished for it.

More about the reverts, it's hard to accept the fact that, Brandmeister could go on to disturb articles' integrity by renaming them. He even claimed that it is per talk, when even Grandmaster admitted not having a problem with the name of the article. Brandmeister’s revert was indeed completely unacceptable. Reverting his action, should be in fact considered as vandalism. How can a user comes out of the blue and rename an article, which both side have agreed to the name of, and then the revert of this revert be used to block another user? Even the chargé d'affair of the republic of Azerbaijan, Farid Shafiyev has used that term to refer to the incident, so reasonably there should be no problem to call it that, when the very large majority of sources call it that. How in the world should any user accept Brandmeister’s actions, and leave it at that, because of a 1RR. Mind that the AA2 does not restrict only to 1RR, in fact it was amended because it had to include other forms of disruptions.

About said map of the Azerbaijani republic from 1918-20, I think the disruption going on there can not be left unanswered, I am referring to this. See from where the source comes from, it is a recently prepared map which was placed recently in the websites of the republic of Azerbaijan. Not one user has provided any sources with those frontiers. Will any good faithed user caring for accuracy vote “keep” for something which he can't substantiate? See here Grandmaster who voted keeps saying that a part which is included in that republic was independent as another republic. What's more is that that map is against the majority position. The National Georgraphic visited Armenia twice, it did draw a map of the republic of Armenia from 1918-1920, here is a copy of that map.

About Nakhichevan, the article contains the Armenian word in the lead, Grandmaster or other users did not have a problem with it for a long time, problems only started with Brandmeister’s revert, from then on, Parishan, Baku87, Grandmaster and the revert had all a problem with. Azeri, English or all foreign names derives from the Armenian word for the place. It is of course logical to include the source of that name and is even common usage. Half the article includes its history, where Nakhichevan has been in Armenia since the 6th century. VartanM argument was never addressed; he did not even receive a reply for it. How can anyone revert without even bothering to answer him, not even with an edit summary.

All those incidents happened all together, seems there is a disastrous effect on Misplaced Pages when Moreschi is away. In brief, if VartanM should be punished, others should too. Thank you. Fedayee (talk) 23:30, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

It definitely seems like there has been a campaign by certain editors to try to bait user:VartanM into breaking one of the arbitration rules regarding AA articles. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:55, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Vartan has faced reasonable arguments regarding his edits, instead he proceeded with not only bold actions, but mudslinging as well. The content of his reverts, especially the last ones, is quite obvious.
Regarding me, I don't 'disturb articles' integrity'. The talk page contents are open to everyone and yes, it is per talk. The sentence is quite obscure, reverting whose action 'should be in fact considered as vandalism'? Grandmaster's? Being in Wiki since 2005 I don't consider myself 'coming out of the blue', if this is what Fedayee meant. I don't know which word Farid Shafiyev or other scholars apply, the only thing is that Plato is my friend, but my best friend is truth. As such I consider that issue quite worthy of renaming. That's all since this is not the best venue to solve content disputes.
Now, I think my keep vote in the map nomination was substantiated enough, anyway I can ground further if necessary. Nakhichevan's issue is in progress so far, so, again, no need to roll out another content dispute. Fedayee's fallacious logic if VartanM should be punished, others should too is just demagogical conclusion.
And Pocopocopocopoco, there was no alleged baiting campaign at all. The one who breached the normal editorial process is known. Your claim tends to be a part of Vartan's conspiracy theories. Brandспойт 11:55, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Come on now, Azerbaijani the lingua franca for the entire Transcaucasus? The editors putting that in must've known the reaction it would have caused. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 18:25, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
This is not a place to bring disputes over content, as indicated atop. Brandспойт 20:10, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
This isn't about content its about baiting editors. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:19, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Based on the fact that VartanM was blocked for reverting content in which the source of the content had referred to Armenians as 'parasite and slave' and it does look like he was baited I believe VartanM's block should be overturned. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:19, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

No he did not face 'any' arguments, in fact he was reverted without prior argumentation. Your renaming was absolutely unacceptable and you continue misleading by claiming per talk. There was no per talk, this is what Grandmaster wrote in the talk: The title can remain,..., and this was the issue which was debated, as you can see from the sources provided by Grandmaster, the article’s title was not what was debated, but rather the intro, as even his sources call it Armenian-Tatar... (and Grandmaster never attempted to deny that) You came up there and moved the article, not knowing what the conflict was all about. Here is a sample of Grandmaster's revert, which shows indeed that the problem and what was debated about was the intro and not the lead. So yes, you did indeed jump in by moving the article twice by refering to the talk, when the debate was not even about the article’s title. Had Moreschi been here, you would have surely ended up with at the very least a strong warning for this. How can such a disruption be even allowed?

Here is more evidence that you did not even read Vartan, had you read the link to his reply which you totally ignored, you will see that it was even not referring to his 'other Roman' example, but rather on the use of foreign name in the lead of articles, he provided Alpenglow as example, and if you check the article Rome, you will see the Latin origin of the word. You did not even bother reading what he was providing, in fact, you just reverted him. This makes Vartan’s revert justified in the talkpage, yours not, but he ended up being the editor who was blocked.

And your claim that there is no baiting campaign falls short, if we check the recent contributions by some users, we see that is what happened. Baki66, for instance. Baki66 reverts VartanM in Nakhichevan article, removing the Armenian term, without ever having written a word in the talkpage, Vartan was even not worthy of a comment in the edit summary. After doing this, he will be adding the Azeri term on Kars article, he will reinsert the disputed map, then revert Zlerman, then go on with a series of reverts , , , , , , , . Finishing it all this and this.

Vartan’s block was not fair, and is the result of ignorance, from an administrator who did not bother viewing and checking what was happening. See here for instance, when reports become a little too much complex, we are even not worthy of being answered, or our request given consideration. Only when it is about 1RR or incivility can we get any reply. Vartan discussed and justified, he was reverted by members who did not even bother justifying. In Parishan's case, he was punished for reverting a fringe theory, something which Parishan has been pushing on several articles for years. It's not that this was never documented, it was. - Fedayee (talk) 03:51, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Let's see how Vartan 'justified' his edits, bypassing the talk: rv vandalism by Grandmaster's puppet (1st), rv vandalism by Grandmaster's puppet (2nd), rv vandalism by Grandmaster's puppet (3rd), rv vandalism by Grandmaster's puppet (4th), rv vandalism by Grandmaster's puppet (5th), rv vandalism by Grandmaster's puppet (6th). The issue is now at the naming conventions talk. Finally, patently baiting over Nagorno-Karabakh, Vartan added the 'fact' tag to his short-living claim: you should be the one waiting... waiting and waiting some more. This is just some part of his activity, so he was fairly cooled down. brandспойт 09:36, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
In case you ignored, justifications are made in he talkpage, and justification does not mean some irrelevant comments like you have done. You totally ignored comments made in the talkpage and now you are not even addressing what I have written documenting the fact that you totally ignored the talkpage. We are dealing again with incivility vs article disruption. Incivility being the result of the latter. The fact that you find nothing wrong in the renaming of the article and claiming per talk when the debate was not even about that shows your total disregard of what others write. Vartan's "disruption" is nothing compared to yours. But you are right, incivil comments shine for administrators, easier to see, in comparison to content disruption. And of course like I mentioned, when we expect something more complex by administrators they run away and do not even bother answering. So I will not be surprised if this is archived without proper answer. - Fedayee (talk) 21:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Me too since you are actually requesting an unblock. brandспойт 05:29, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The empty room is full of people who care. :) Meowy 23:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

But, seriously, maybe the good-faith party should concentrate on editing the articles, allowing the truth to speak for itself, rather than expending energy on this stuff which few admins bother reading. Meowy 00:03, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Baki66

Someone oughta take a look at this user. Over a dozen reverts today. Some sort of a revert warrior that just popped up of nowhere sans any useful contributions, ever.-- Ευπάτωρ 18:32, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

And it would also be good if someone took a look at severe violation of WP:Civil by Eupator. Comments like Your map is just fascist regurgitation are not really helpful. Grandmaster 07:06, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
I think Baki66 should at the very least be CUed with Baku87 and AdilBaguirov. He appears to be closely involved with fishy POV pushing Cross-Wiki. As can be seen from other language Wikipedias, the recent POV pushing which VartanM fell victim to is the tip of the iceberg. See here the POV pushing with the same map and the same claim. Baki66 does not appear to be a new user, Parishan's POV pushing on adding Azeri terms on Kars has been practiced by Baki66, see here also. He also added in the genocide article Xojali (claim prepared by Adil). See the rename here and battled on the rename on the Polish Misplaced Pages too. There is enough ground to checkuser him. - Fedayee (talk) 21:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
To hell with checkusering him. Ban him! Meowy 23:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
One should look at the edit history of this user, his recent 50 edits are almost all reverts without even an edit summary! The persistent and unexplained reverts of this user match in many cases with that of Baku87, in particular when he reverted the ADR article in favour of Baku87's map (2 reverts in 1 day: ), removed Shushi from numerous articles ( etc.) just after I had replaced them and called on to reach consensus before such massive changes, unexplained reverted the Nakhchivan article(), as well as recent reverts in the Stepanakert and Shusha articles. --Vacio (talk) 10:03, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
  • I see here the usual combatants gaming this board for advantage in a content dispute. Try dispute resolution instead. If any reasonable editor, not involved in the dispute comes here with a complaint against any one of you, there is a good chance I will place a sanction. However, I believe that those with unclean hands should not be encouraged to make enforcement requests against one another. The length of the complaint is appalling. If you have a case, state it plainly with diffs. Don't try to snow us with a wall of text. Hopefully you will all take this advice to heart. Jehochman 17:17, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.