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Comments

This article had to be stubbed back to a version from 2004. All later versions had unsourced claims that were severe WP:BLP violations, carried along for over three years, and other serious POV problems. Please re-expand this article, but with scrupulous attention to good sources. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The article has since been re-expanded. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 13:50, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Personal life

The 'personal life' section needs to be cleared from all the gossip. Espresso news is by no means a reliable source. This is supposed to be an Encyclopaedia article not a gossip column. ギリシャ人 (talk) 14:31, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Nothing is stopping you from fixing it. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:04, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I tried to fix it (somewhat) based on what was already there. However, it still contains stuff that I have had no means of verifying.ギリシャ人 (talk) 13:35, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

...and it was all reverted by Greekstar12 stating 'not gossip, situations that were associated with the artist's life; states when they were confirmed false and ARE SOURCED!' Tabloid rumors IS gossip and have no place in Misplaced Pages. Instead of keeping it out of the article more was added always using the same TABLOID as a 'source'. Espresso is NOT a reliable source and using it to make such serious allegations in a biography of a living person is a violation of Misplaced Pages policy. ギリシャ人 (talk) 12:21, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey, Espresso is NOT a tabloid magazine, it is a daily newspaper that tends to focus more on entertainment, but also on politics. An example of a tabloid in Greece is Very Sorry, the Greek version of the National Enquirer that rarely publishes anything remotely true. Espresso is a national/government owned newspaper. The newspapers in Greece come in a few different categories, daily, nightly, weekly, and monthly. The ones delivered in the morning are politically-affiliated. The deal with Espresso is that it has no political affiliation (bias to one political party), so it has minimal censorship. There is a gossip section, however, if you look at the ref, it comes from the exclusive section. All of the other sections are news and happenings around Athens. The newspaper focuses mostly on entertainment life, but also on social issues and even politics. For example, they ran the case of the missing Russian boy Alex for months, and that's not gossip. Since there are no newspapers like this in N.America and other parts of the world, so it may be hard to grasp. (Also, the ref is not news, it is a tribute artist bio)

Also, look at List of newspapers in Greece. You will find Espresso under daily political newspapers, making it an officially approved source. You won't find Very Sorry (popular tabloid) there or even a tabloid section. Does that prove anything to you? I don't mean any disrespect, and I really appreciate you taking interest in this article, but your edits make you seem like a fan who doesn't want to include anything negative in the artist's article. All artists have had their negative publicity, some is just gossip, while others, such as Rouvas' case is encyclopedic. Censorship does not help the article --I just don't get why everybody freaks out at the mention of suicide. It is a horrible thing, I know, but Rouvas' attempt was huge news in Greece in that era. His mental health was doubted. His own publications have confirmed this. In 2001, Rouvas released a compilation box set from Universal under publishing of Delta Press, Sakis Rouvas (compilation). The album includes a biography that confirms that the artist claimed to have mental issues (incl.agoraphobia). The Greek independent magazine Afisorama that dedicates issues to artist bios and interviews have also confirmed these issues about the attempted suicide and military service. Furthermore, your edits did'nt really help because when you took out the info of the drug possession charge, you wrote that the doctor was initially charged. In your edit summary you say wrote what was actually in the reference, but the ref says that the doctor was charged later. That's withholding and changing information to your benefit, which is highly POV. If it will put you at ease, I will get the other two primary refs as well. As for the yacht scandal, Psinakis did an interview on Status verifying all of the happenings, later even naming his talk show after the T-shirt slogan.

What has to be kept in mind is that although most rumors come and go, some are a very big component to the artists' career. Ie: the suicide/psychosis was a huge issue at the time and was a recurring topic for months. The drug charge (although false) became a huge public deal, so much so that T-shirts were printed as a common joke, although I never once stated that he was a drug addict, but the stigma itself was huge. I can get more refs, but you have to differentiate between what's gossip and what's were significant accusations and occurrences in the artist's life. GreekStar12 (talk) 22:11, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I think the problem here is not that it isn't sourced well, it's that it's just a little too much. In an article where the subject is notable because of his music, television appearances, etc, his personal life section should just be an overview, not an in depth study of his relationships and other odds and ends. Also I heard something about a relationship of Rouvas with Psinakis or something crazy like that that was a big rumor as well, so I guess while you are finding those sources, look into either confirming or disregarding it. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 23:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I get what you're saying Grk, but what you have to keep in mind is that some artist's careers are very influenced by their personal lives. I'm sure you may have heard Rouvas being called a phenomenon, and while his record sales and shows obviously formed that image, undoubtedly his personal issues had an influence as well. For example look at Madonna (entertainer), one of the most successful music artists. Her personal life has had a great influence on her professional life. Michael Jackson's bio does not have career and personal sections, however details of his personal life are very heavily worked into the article. I tried not to go on to much about it but it was such a big deal in his career that some say the publicity may have helped the great success of Aima, Dakrya, even though he could not promote it. It was around the time when his success was at its height up to that point and only soared after the incident. As for the relationships, while he has been private about all except two, they have all been scrutinized and play a role in his recognition as a sex symbol.

As for, Psinakis, funny you should mention that because I was about to start the Elias Psinakis article soon. I didn't mention this yet because it's a tricky topic. Although I know the story, it is hard to source and I would definitely need help with how to word it. To get the full picture, one would also have to discuss Psinakis' sexual orientation and personal life. (Btw, this is irrelevant, but I met him and he's a very cool, funny person, lol!)

• Psinakis first saw Rouvas in Corfu. After Rouvas won the Song Festival in 91, that day he and Psinakis were in a car accident then Psinakis asked Rouvas to be his manager, and Rouvas accepted. They soon became best friends and had a very close relationship.
• The rumors are related with Rouvas' military era. The tabloids (Very Sorry esp.) ran the story that Rouvas and Psinakis got married in Holland so Rouvas could bail out of military service. As his fame was rising, many critics wanted for his career to be over. However, the first story would not necessarily mean that either one is homosexual, but was using the excuse for a purpose. So, then, critics began to say that they were married and in love. The marriage/homosexuality rumor was a huge scandal in Rouvas' career although it was never confirmed. Esp in those years, homosexuality was not at all accepted in Greece, so you can imagine the media outrage. The marriage rumor was persistent, although it didn't really fly that well without verifications.
• Then, they started to say that they were in a relationship w/o marriage for a couple of years. All were denied, but the impact was undeniable. This was also sparked by the fact that Rouvas was very private about his personal life and was never in a public relationship, but also when they moved to the US together after the 1997 bi-national concert issue.
• The rumors about Rouvas' sexuality slowed in 2002 when he was in a relationship with Rebecca, and since have decreased, with the rumor being defunct in Greece now after so many years of NO VERIFICATION.
• Satirists often portrayed Rouvas and Psinakis as homosexuals, however, even Psinakis strongly denied the marriage/relationship rumors in 2005 interviews calling it "bullshit" (btw that source is alr in the article)
• Although Rouvas was often accused of being in a relationship with Psinakis, and some called him homosexual, he was never really accused of being a homosexual in general, but being in one relationship with a man.
• NEITHER have ever been confirmed homosexual and the allegations were proven FALSE, however, it is something that has a big stigma on Rouvas' career.
• As for Psinakis, he has denied being gay, although he often makes jokingly sexual comments to both men and women on TV. Many people portray him as being homosexual, and often in Greece they use that as an insult, however he has a daughter born in 1990, and was in a relationship with Julia Alexandratou for 2 yrs (although some say it was real, others fake), so at the MOST, he would be a bisexual.
• Greek media also strongly pushed the story of fighting between Psinakis and Zygouli. In 2005, Psinakis was fired by Rouvas, so no new rumors were ever brought up. Rouvas and Psinakis were estranged for about 2 yrs but reconciled and since 2008 have started work together again. GreekStar12 (talk) 00:41, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Greekstar12 up until yesterday morning the Misplaced Pages List of newspapers in Greece with regards to Espresso read 'Political affiliation: none (gossip)'. The only reason that it now reads 'Political affiliation: none (evening press) (entertainment/social issues/gossip)' is that some anonymous IP conveniently altered it yesterday evening. Please do not insult my intelligence. Espresso is a government owned newspaper???? Not very likely! I find it hard to believe that Espresso has the same respectability as other daily newspapers e.g. Kathimerini and Ta Nea. I have not seen you quoting any such respectable sources. I was in Greece at the time but I do not remember hearing about Rouvas' suicide attempt. In any case, what you have used as a source is the Espresso 'show time' website section where the corresponding article makes no mention of its sources when it describes his suicide attempt with such detail(!). Most people would question its reliability.

Secondly, I am not a major fan of Rouvas but I am a fan of ethos and WP:BLP policy. I strongly suggest that you read the latter. Your style of writing is nowhere near a NPOV and Esspresso and afisorama are low quality sources for such serious allegations. I have no means of viewing the afisorama article BUT I have read the Esspresso one that you initially used as your only source and I will try to demonstrate what I mean by gossip:

The Espresso article verbatim says: 'When he moved permanently to Athens, Sakis Rouvas rented a small apartement in Dafni and lived together with an English friend, with who he had a relationship since he was in Corfu'. You have written in wikipedia: 'When he first moved to Athens, Rouvas rented a small apartment in Dafni, Attica where he lived with an older English woman whom he had been in a relationship with since he was in high school in Corfu.' Your style of writing is sensationalist to say the least. You have written that Rouvas cheated on Rebecca Wang with Zygouli for a year and that he got back together with her after he learned that she was pregnant, which are nowhere to be found in the Espresso link you provided, which incidentally does not mention the years for these events either.

If I wanted to whitewash Rouvas I would have taken the controversy section out altogether. Regardng the yacht incident, Espresso mentions that Rouvas and the other guests gave testimony, not that they were charged. If you wanted to include any important controversy, you should have included the Cyprus one. Finally, there is no such thing as 'political union ceremony' in English language; the term is 'civil ceremony'. If Rouvas indeed had one, of which I have not the faintest idea, then he is in fact legally married regardless of whether or not it is recognised by the Greek orthodox church. I will edit accordingly and I suggest that you source properly any reverts.ギリシャ人 (talk) 12:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey, I must not have realized that I wasn't signed in when I changed it, my mistake, but I changed it to what the newspaper is really about. It is an evening newspaper, has a gossip section, a highlife section, and an exclusive section. If you read the discussion page, I'm sure you understood why it is not a tabloid, but rather an official source. Many Wiki articles use magazine interviews as a reference, and Afisorama may be the best magazine in Greece to get correct information on an artist. It is an independent magazine and all of the dedication issues are approved by the artist. Grk1011 also doesn't think that there is a problem with the sourcing. Do you just not believe what it says or what. I tried to get Espresso in there because it is a published source that can be viewed online. Magazines and television programs, and such, may have accurate info but cannot be viewed, so often they aren't right for serious situations as a sole ref. GreekStar12 (talk) 20:46, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

PS, In some ways Espresso may be even more respectable than I Kathimerini, To Ethnos, Ta Nea cause it has no political affiliation. It is 'government-owned' in a way, meaning that it is nationally approved and distributed, while tabloids are independent. All of the newspapers you talk about not only do not usually talk about the arts, which is why in Greece there are political and entertainment np's, but they also show GREAT BIAS to one political party. So, meaning, the news is either represented in a very right or left POV. This makes the Greek newspapers a corruption, not to sound like a hippie or anything, but even the 'respectable' ones you mention are not that respectable. GreekStar12 (talk) 20:52, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Something to take into account Greekstar is that WP:BLP is an extremely powerful wiki guideline and can result in the removal of a lot of information just on the assumption that it is not true or not neutral. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:11, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Well I reverted most of the section, HOWEVER, I did change some things that Girisha-jin brought up, like the civil ceremony, reuniting after pregnancy, and I changed drug charge to accused of drug possession. The suicide description however has multiple strong sources including a primary, secondary (magazine by permission of Rouvas), and third person source, so it stays.

PS: I think it IS neutral. I did not lean either way towards Rouvas or the accusations, just represented the story and pointed out when it was confirmed false GreekStar12 (talk) 21:40, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, btw Girisha-jin, you sent me a message about if I wanted to include real controversies I should mention the Cyprus incident about the concert. Although it is a controversy section, that in no way belongs there as it is a controversy of his career, not his personal life. GreekStar12 (talk) 21:48, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Espresso is more respectable than Kathimerini and Ta Nea??? The latter two may have political bias but what we are discussing has nothing to do with politics. It has to do with the reliability and neutrality of sources used to make serious allegations regarding a living artist's private life. Espresso feeds on showbiz gossip, human sorrow and scandals and even when it does publish on serious issues it does so in a sensationalist way with a goal to sell issues. It is nowhere near NPOV. Espresso is 'nationally approved'? What does that even mean? You still haven't addressed most of the issues I brought up. The sources you have used so far are of low quality. However, I see that our definitions of gossip and neutrality are very different so we could go on in circles indefinately. I have reported the situation to an experienced admin. Hopefully, they will be more successful in protecting this article from wiki policy violations. If not, the NPOV, reliability (and respectability) of another wikipedia article will bite the dust. Won't be the first time lol. ギリシャ人 (talk) 23:48, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I said that meaning in a way it is because it does not care about censoring issues in order to favor on epolitical party. The other newspapers in Greece almost never give the news straight because they are so corrupt from politics. It's in the news everywhere. Anyway, that's not the point. In Greece, they have daily national newspapers that deal 1.with Politics and National news, 2.Sports only, and 3.entertainment/social issues. You think these other np's or more reliable, but they are not, and they rarely ever mention something about the arts, and rarely even about sports, unless it is a national tournament. That is way Espresso, an entertainment np is released daily and not weekly, as well as O Protathlitis for sports. The only time the political np's have ever featured a big entertainment story is once a year, at Eurovision, which technically is national news, oh, and they also reported the Madonna concert after she came there last year. They don't deal with these topics, Espresso for entertainers and O Protathlitis for athletes, does not make them any less reliable.

Maybe you are bothered by the semi-nudity on the first page of the espresso girls, lol. The leading Toronto newspaper that I read, The Toronto Sun features their sunshine girl everyday looking like a skank, but that doesn't make people think that it's not a reliable source of news :) Anyway, we may never agree with this, but, the point is that a primary source of Rouvas, and a secondary magazine source approved by Rouvas have also claimed these statements, so that's about it. It's neutral because it does not lean to either side. Btw, since ur so stuck on Ta Nea, your respectable np, which I also read, back in the 90s published a story about the alleged Rouvas-Psinakis marriage, which turned out to be false. I would try to get you that source, but I doubt that they have an archive that goes back that far. So is it really more respectable? I doubt.GreekStar12 (talk) 00:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Greekstar12 even so, that would only prove that there are no respectable newspapers in Greece, not that you are using neutral and respectable sources. So far your approach lacks the integrity required by WP:BLP. You are still keeping things in the article that are insignificant and/or not (properly) sourced. You insist on including what every tom/dick/harry/katina has ever written about Rouvas' private life. Why is all this stuff important/relevant/useful for the whole planet to know? I doubt that Rouvas' career was shaped by the fact that he was once seen entering a hotel with Kokkinou or that Zeta was once seen in his dressing room. Who are Nouardos, Maravegias and all these unnamed informers/accusers/paparazzi/gossiping friends? Nobody significant is the answer and yet you insist on giving them undue weight. Maravegias in that espresso link you provided hasn't even written that Rouvas was with Wang during 2002-2004 and that he met Zygouli in 2003. That is your own original research so far and a WP:OR violation. Why should an Encyclopaedia care for any of this?ギリシャ人 (talk) 11:22, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I very much agree with Girisha-jin here. I haven't checked closely enough to be able to judge which bits are actual BLP violations (as this debate shows, given the fact that much of the gossip is "sourced" out there, that is a bit difficult to gauge), but what I can clearly see is that the article is full of worthless unencyclopedic gossip. So, a strong request to cut down on the trivia, if for no other reason than intellectual quality. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:27, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I have done so accordingly. Greekstar12 you need to address my points step by step prior to any reverts.ギリシャ人 (talk) 12:12, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I am OK with this new version of the section. It takes out what was thought to be unnecessary without taking out the events. It is fine for me, I just had a problem with Girisha-jin's older edits that made the section sound very passive and assuming it was false, which I did not find neutral, however I don't really see any problems the way it is right now. GreekStar12 (talk) 23:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

GreekStar12 the article still contains some details which I perceive as unnecessary but I will not touch it anymore.ギリシャ人 (talk) 10:47, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

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ギリシャ人 (talk) 15:41, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

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