| Revision as of 19:28, 2 April 2009 editDigwuren (talk | contribs)11,308 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit | Revision as of 19:48, 2 April 2009 edit undoRussavia (talk | contribs)78,741 edits →Removed from article for time being: rspNext edit → | ||
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| ::I would very clearly direct you towards your own Arbcom at ] which states "All editors are warned that future attempts to use Misplaced Pages as a battleground—in particular, by making generalized accusations that persons of a particular national or ethnic group are engaged in Holocaust denial or harbor Nazi sympathies—may result in the imposition of summary bans when the matter is reported to the Committee. This applies both to the parties to this case as well as to any other editor that may choose to engage in such conduct." I would urge you to be very, very careful in even thinly veiled accusations at myself or any other editor being a Neo-Nazi or anything else; especially when that is further from the truth, and particularly when members of my own family died fighting that scourge. Would you like to refactor your comments? --] <sup>]</sup> 19:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC) | ::I would very clearly direct you towards your own Arbcom at ] which states "All editors are warned that future attempts to use Misplaced Pages as a battleground—in particular, by making generalized accusations that persons of a particular national or ethnic group are engaged in Holocaust denial or harbor Nazi sympathies—may result in the imposition of summary bans when the matter is reported to the Committee. This applies both to the parties to this case as well as to any other editor that may choose to engage in such conduct." I would urge you to be very, very careful in even thinly veiled accusations at myself or any other editor being a Neo-Nazi or anything else; especially when that is further from the truth, and particularly when members of my own family died fighting that scourge. Would you like to refactor your comments? --] <sup>]</sup> 19:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| :::Your and Offliner's editwarring to keep neo-Nazi material in this article speaks for itself. ]<sub>]</sub> 19:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC) | :::Your and Offliner's editwarring to keep neo-Nazi material in this article speaks for itself. ]<sub>]</sub> 19:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC) | ||
| ::::I will deal with your continued accusations later in another venue. As to your assertions, whether he is a neo-Nazi or not is irrelevant. It is whether he notable enough for his opinion to be on WP? You brought up the "notorious" argument with ] when it was at AfD, and every link you provided only went further towards establishing his notability. Ilves saw fit to in relation to the charges levelled against him, and he is profiled in the Estonian press quite a lot it seems? The problem I have with the material, is that firstly you blindly reverted the information completely, which I abhor at the best of times and often see as disruption or whitewashing (which explains my revert of yourself), and then that after copyediting it I saw that the information was somewhat ] due to it's length, and thirdly because it lacked context for his opinion. Ideally, the information should be presented as "As a result of KaPo investigations blah blah blah which resulted in blah blah blah caused Teinonen to accuse KaPo of blah blah blah", and to keep it short and succinct, without delving into ] of one view or another. I would hope that other sources are found which can provide this information, but not speaking Estonian, this makes it somewhat difficult for myself, but it does appear that sources are out there. --] <sup>]</sup> 19:48, 2 April 2009 (UTC) | |||
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Teinonen is not a reliable source
Teinonen is not a reliable source in this matter (or most others). He is not known for his detailed scholarly assessment; he's known for his approval of Nazi policies.
There have been some pretty colourful dudes in Estonian scout movement. Perhaps it's regrettable that Teinonen doesn't eat cats, just pigs -- if he did, he might be as notable as Asso Kommer. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 17:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- Teinonen's case has received coverage in reliable sources (such as the ones I used in my edit.) Remember: verifiability, not truth. Offliner (talk) 17:59, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- Pretty much every of your sources characterizes him as a Neo-Nazi, yet you somehow failed to mention this in your summary. Why? Colchicum (talk) 18:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- If you think it's relevant, you are free to add it to the article. Offliner (talk) 18:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- Pretty much every of your sources characterizes him as a Neo-Nazi, yet you somehow failed to mention this in your summary. Why? Colchicum (talk) 18:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
Removed from article for time being
I've removed the section from the article, for the time being. Teinonen is somewhat notable after looking at Google, and his blog can be used as a source for his opinion, particularly as this opinion arises from the charges which have been levelled against him. I'm not saying one thing or the other, whether I agree with him or not, because I don't have an opinion on the matter, but his opinion as written was a little undue and without context. It needs to be shortened a lot. Also, it is a WP:BLP violation to claim that a person is a Neo-Nazi as a matter of fact, but it should be mentioned that he was charged for blah blah blah, and attribute the opinion that way. --Russavia 19:09, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- I agree. My initial version was indeed a bit too long. It still needs refinement. Offliner (talk) 19:12, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- For a taste of Teinonen's opinions, the first article about him on Google is an interview headlined "Teinonen: National Socialism had many good sides". He's notorious, not notable. I find it hard to believe that anybody but another neo-Nazi would seriously consider adding Teinonen's opinion about police onto Misplaced Pages would be a good idea. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 19:17, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- I would very clearly direct you towards your own Arbcom at Misplaced Pages:DIGWUREN#Editors_warned which states "All editors are warned that future attempts to use Misplaced Pages as a battleground—in particular, by making generalized accusations that persons of a particular national or ethnic group are engaged in Holocaust denial or harbor Nazi sympathies—may result in the imposition of summary bans when the matter is reported to the Committee. This applies both to the parties to this case as well as to any other editor that may choose to engage in such conduct." I would urge you to be very, very careful in even thinly veiled accusations at myself or any other editor being a Neo-Nazi or anything else; especially when that is further from the truth, and particularly when members of my own family died fighting that scourge. Would you like to refactor your comments? --Russavia 19:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- Your and Offliner's editwarring to keep neo-Nazi material in this article speaks for itself. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 19:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- I will deal with your continued accusations later in another venue. As to your assertions, whether he is a neo-Nazi or not is irrelevant. It is whether he notable enough for his opinion to be on WP? You brought up the "notorious" argument with Johan Bäckman when it was at AfD, and every link you provided only went further towards establishing his notability. Ilves saw fit to revoke the awards he received in relation to the charges levelled against him, and he is profiled in the Estonian press quite a lot it seems? The problem I have with the material, is that firstly you blindly reverted the information completely, which I abhor at the best of times and often see as disruption or whitewashing (which explains my revert of yourself), and then that after copyediting it I saw that the information was somewhat WP:UNDUE due to it's length, and thirdly because it lacked context for his opinion. Ideally, the information should be presented as "As a result of KaPo investigations blah blah blah which resulted in blah blah blah caused Teinonen to accuse KaPo of blah blah blah", and to keep it short and succinct, without delving into advocacy of one view or another. I would hope that other sources are found which can provide this information, but not speaking Estonian, this makes it somewhat difficult for myself, but it does appear that sources are out there. --Russavia 19:48, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- Your and Offliner's editwarring to keep neo-Nazi material in this article speaks for itself. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 19:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
- I would very clearly direct you towards your own Arbcom at Misplaced Pages:DIGWUREN#Editors_warned which states "All editors are warned that future attempts to use Misplaced Pages as a battleground—in particular, by making generalized accusations that persons of a particular national or ethnic group are engaged in Holocaust denial or harbor Nazi sympathies—may result in the imposition of summary bans when the matter is reported to the Committee. This applies both to the parties to this case as well as to any other editor that may choose to engage in such conduct." I would urge you to be very, very careful in even thinly veiled accusations at myself or any other editor being a Neo-Nazi or anything else; especially when that is further from the truth, and particularly when members of my own family died fighting that scourge. Would you like to refactor your comments? --Russavia 19:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC)