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Revision as of 19:27, 17 November 2005

• Archive #1 - Pre-October 2005
• Archive #2 - October Disputes
• Archive #3 - Mediated Disputes 1
• Archive #4 - Mediated Disputes 2
• Archive #5 - 3 November 2005 through 13 November 2005

Accusation of POV

Could everyone please stop accusing the other side of POV, as it is by no means helpful; lets just try to edit this article and if talk doesn't work, then I will try to come up with a compromise that still support Wiki policy(NPOV).

Also, please change only ONE section at a time. Thank you.Voice of All 05:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Sure, VoiceOfAll. I did also come to that conclusion. I re-posted the information that admits NLP and other pseudosciences such as Dianetics, EFT, and EMDR have also been listed as being used within psychology associations. This is simply to clarify, balance and frame the criticisms properly. regards HeadleyDown 05:39, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello VoiceOFAll. I noticed you removed the concluding statement from Sharpley 87. I think you are completely justified in doing so. The reason it was placed there was because an NLP promoter kept placing a selectively edited and inconclusive discussion statement from Sharpley within the opening criticism section. I certainly agree with keeping the article brief. Novelty in Sharpley's paper would refer to the wild claims of "new improved" or "new theraputic magic" etc. The Sharpley conclusion may well have to go back there sometime in future in order to fend off the selective editing of NLP promoters. I can remove the bit that says "novelty" in future though if you like. Regards HeadleyDown 05:50, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Nothing will be added to "fend-off" anyone. However I will try to get the intro NPOV and keep it that way.Voice of All 05:56, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Great VoiceOfAll! I'll help you keep it NPOV. Regards HeadleyDown 05:59, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Voice of All. I'm thinking that most of our comments or reversions involve a claimed attempt by ourselves to be more NPOV (and hence "they're using POV"... Am I right to assume that what you're asking is for us not to use "NPOV" as an explanation, rather spell out any reasoning for change, in detail?

As for one section at a time - might I suggest we do any major change to opening/overview last so they can reflect whatever NPOV we've come to in the other sections? GregA 08:29, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and in light of POV - Headley, you always call us "pro", and presuppose you are the "neutral editors" (we call you anti). Labelling yourself Neutral doesn't make you less biased... in fact it may do the opposite.

Well you have all had a busy weekend. OK VoA, I'll do my best to calm the sarcasm gland in the interests of the article. CheersDaveRight 02:34, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Research Subpage

You need to add a bibliography with complete citations. As it currently stands the abstracts are incomplete. One of the purposes of citation is to allow the possibility of review by other parties. This objective cannot be fulfilled because you have not provided complete citations (i.e. author(s) fullname, name of publication, edition). flavius 07:44, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello Flavius. To add a bibliography would go against the promotional editor's purpose. If you could check the actual research, you would come to the same conclusion as all the other neutral editors. NLP is pseudoscientific, wrong in theory and application, and misleading (kindly put; scientifically unsupported and pseudoscientific). The most conclusive and encyclopedic evidence is already on the article page, and you are welcome to check it out. If you spend your time looking through the inconclusive refs presented on the alternative research page, you would just go round in circles. The burden of proof rests upon the NLP promoters, and they have not presented any evidence for NLP's principles or claimed efficacy. The most basic conclusion of recent reliable researchers is that NLP is scientifically unsupported. No need to take my word for it. Regards HeadleyDown 07:53, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I quickly reviewed FT2's truncated abstracts and citations and I offer the following observations: (a) at least some are not sourced from reputable, peer-reviewed journals; and (b) most of the summaries are replete with vague and imprecise quantificational language (eg. "most helpful", "positive correlation" (magnitude?), "partially positive effects", "strongly related", "marked improvement", "positive reduction", "deeper trance", "substantially", "very helpful", "enormous changes", "very many of the people" etc.). The use of such vague language is evidence of methodological defect. I have reviewed some of the cited literature and I too am of the view that NLP is largely -- if not entirely -- without substance, ineffective (beyond non-specific factors) and without any scientific basis. flavius 08:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

That's unfortunate Headley.

The burden of proof rests on the person making the claim, not just if a person is presenting supporting evidence. I note also that you presuppose the references presented are "inconclusive", yet rather than opening debate you encourage not talking about them. Flavius is right to ask for expanded information before something is put into the main article, and to request that information. The recognition by other groups looks well cited, the papers give researcher, year, but some give the journal, title, some don't. GregA 08:25, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Greg, it seems that promoters are behaving pseudoscientifically. They seem to be placing the burden on scientists to prove NLP works. Not only that, but they want to take each minor study, and work their own thesis (AKA pov) that NLP is actually supported by science. I don't mind discussing it, but really if you want to be conclusive, all you have to do is go to the conclusions of the reviewers (overviewers). Your own conclusions are completely inappropriate. Remember NPOV states that the article should not include your own work. If you want to state that your own review negates the reviews of the other scientists then really you should not be editing. HeadleyDown 08:32, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Greg, Headley's stance is consistent with the preponderance of scientific evidence and the consensus of scientific opinion. All of the literature reviews on NLP that I have seen (and that are quoted in the article) arrive at the position that Headley is advancing. We are treading well-worn paths and performing our own literature review or meta-analyses is entirely inconsistent with Misplaced Pages policy. My point to FT2 was that if (s)he is going to cite research s(he) should provide full, well-formed citations. Nothing more. I apologise if my response in any way indicated that the "jury was still out" on NLP. I refer you to this exhaustive literature review on EMDR because (a) it is online; (b) EMDR is often claimed by the NLP community as being derived from NLP; (c) NLP (specifically VK dissociation) is mentioned; (d) it is illustrative of how pseudoscience and bunkum becomes institutionalised; (e) you will find many of the NLP proponents tactics regarding unfavourable scientific review coming also from EMDR proponents; and (d) it clearly explains the problem of substantiation and evidence regarding therapeutic interventions. See http://www.drexel.edu/academics/coas/psychology/papers/herbertscience.pdf. flavius 08:55, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello again Flavius. Yes, EMDR and indeed elements of EFT and other such pseudoscientific confections are closely associated with NLP. I was thinking earlier, that actually one of the most telling signs for NLP's pseudoscientificness is the theories (and yes they do talk theory) and hypotheses they propose. Not only are many of them completely conflicting but they are often on the perifery of science and have been debunked. Actually, I would like to look more at the EMDR literature as it is another really interesting (the eyes have it) kind of pseudoscience. Anyway, I'm glad you have an understanding of science. I think you can expect a sockpuppet label pretty soon though. Every other science savvy editor here has got the sockpuppet label so far (apart from VoiceOfAll). How does he do it?:)HeadleyDown 12:00, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi again Flavius. I believe you have hit on an extremely enlightening article. Perhaps I have become too accustomed to NLP to see it's pseudoscientific novelty, but this article about EMDR really does offer a fresh perspective.

I suppose I should get straight to how it relates to this article. The research supporting EMDR is as the clinicians say - superficial. It is interesting how they present it as a kind of cost-benefit ratio, with all the benefit going to the charlatans and the cost going to the client and the field of clinical psychotherapy. I can see more about why they are so troubled by the mantra of eclecticism. Its almost like that word "holistic".

The collection of trauma fixing techniques is really very telling and reminiscent of Dianetics (which grew mostly out of the claim to remove traumas). I did attend a newsgroup that actually claimed to do power therapies such as EFT, and they were as deluded as Dianetics proponents even to the extent that reading the word "cancer" could give you that illness. Basically, the reason it spreads is due to the neurotic perspectives that it fosters. The same could be said of NLP and its use of "negative energy deflection shields" that people place around themselves to deflect negative energies (a wholly pseudoscientific idea due to energy never physically being negative anyhow).

The excuses for NLP and EFT and Dianetics seem to be very similar. They all adhere to the notion that cures can be obtained fast, but also be undone fast. This is not a notion that is recognized in any other kind of therapy. You tap on a meridian (or change a submodality or reframe) and you are done. Then someone comes along and undoes it and you have to start again.

The decision of the APA is troubling considering how pseudo these kind of techniques are (troubling according to Eisner, and Lilienfield amongst others). Anyway, this is a good comparison, and has certainly clarified things for me. Certainly it seems that NLP is just as, if not more so pseudoscientific. As NLP is more popular as a self help technique, it also seems to be introducing the public to pseudoscience and a reinforcing a wide range of popular misconceptions. Regards HeadleyDown 15:05, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Quick replies:

• Flavius - When you are faced with a huge mountain of information there is a limit to what one can type. Your point is well taken, and insofar as if this was the actual wikipedia page it would be cited differently, I agree. However, I am a shortage of manpower, and you will have to look up some of the research for yourself to double check its quality. My purpose in posting that information is to demonstrate that there is in fact widespread use of, and positive views on, NLP, by credible bodies, and that the present research grossly misrepresents the field. In many cases the academic papers were published but I had not typed a formal location. They are none the less traceable and can therefore meet WP:V for verifiability. Despite this, some I have added sources regardless. The non research uses, which are arguably the more important since they are evidence that NLP is used in practice, are all 100% cited. That is all.
• Second, have you or anyone else, anyone noticed that certain editors are trying to ignore them as fast as possible, with wide generalizations, rather than investigating those which are sourced? There's enough of them, and if you cared you could find citations and abstracts for the rest. FT2 10:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

A quick reply of my own... and I see you've just written what I was going to say FT2....

I find it quite disconcerting how unwilling Headley et al are to even discuss the science supporting NLP.

And FT2, thank you for the time you've put into this. GregA 10:18, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi! Again Greg, from the research presented (including that part which is presented on the alternative research page) NLP is scientifically unsupported. I really believe it is not my part to discuss evidence that experts such as Heap, Sharpley, Morgan, Lilienfeld, Singer, Drenth, Levelt, and a good many more there and to be added, have already discussed with the conclusion that NLP is unsupported and pseudoscience. Perhaps you will hear a different view from someone else, but it is already clear that NLP is pseudoscientific from theory to results to excuses. Regards HeadleyDown 13:01, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Disconcerting but not suprising. Did you know that a lot of web geeks used to play 'dungeons and dragons' when they were kids and now see the web as some kind of substitute game. 'Really', 'actually', 'mostly' I suspect they don't really care about the article at all. Just hanging out under a bridge sort-of-thing Faxx 13:05, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

NLP not a science? What about behavioral psychology? What about "Human Development", Social Science, and Medicine?

The "Syntax" system derived from "eye patterning" movements is more of a science than anything found in the sheeple herding "sciences" of sociology or behavioral psychology or so many other supposed "sciences." It looks like the "skeptics" (mismatchers in NLP lingo) got hold of this page, and we all know that most scientists who've had breakthrough ideas are not skeptics. The top scientists are visionaries (matchers in NLP lingo.) They have an idea, then they try to prove that it works. If a scientist maintains a skeptical point of view they will most likely not be inclined to think outside the box, they will most likely not come up with the new ideas needed for innovation and change. The strongest argument that NLP is a science is (after looking at the NLP system) one looks at the neurological studies done by Karl Pribram and others at UCLA. Add to this the MRI studies done with sufferers of "multiple personality disorder", now called "dissociative Identity Disorder." Pribram's findings about the behavior of the brain, when it "switches" from one personality to another, matches the NLP model which preceded Pribram's finding and the MRI results.

The editors of this fine 💕 (a People's Encyclopedia -- what a concept) might find a way to filter out the disinformation and misinformation which flows from nay-sayers, debunkers, and cover artists. ( NLP has deep roots in the cryptocracy's MKUltra programs. I am lumping them together under the MKU umbrella, rather than name all the programs that spanned 70 years or so.) Once you understand that NLP is a super form of hypnosis ( modeled by Grinder and Bandler, in part, upon the practices of Milton H. Erickson, a scientist, a psychiatrist, a hypnotherapist, and a brilliant mind, great wit, and generous friend) is one of many names for an emerging science, one that comes out of the clinics where people are being treated for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (the VA gives drugs only), and the pandemic of disorders that (study your Marshall McLuhan) may be the result of technological influences.

One of the foremost specialists in psychiatry exclaimed, upon meeting me for the first time at a conference in Santa Barbara: "This country has gone mad..." I was amazed that he recognized this, not because of any lack of intelligence on his part, but because of his conditioning in medical school. When I thought about it, I remembered that he had been educated, and had practiced for many years, in a foreign country and therefore could think outside the AMA box.

When you think about the Diagnostic and Statistical Manuals, you realize that it's largely a sorting mechanism, tagging a variety of transitory conditions with a variety of names, and having the bias of attempting to find pharmaceutical treatments with drugs for symptoms, masking the cause of the symptom, making life hard on clients and health care providers, and easy on the insurance companies who are represented on the panels which decide what will and will not go into any particular edition. (For example, compare the DSM-III with the DSM- IV.)

Recently, for the first time, a science journal has published a series of articles in which a number of leading practitioners agreed that the abuse of a child has profound affects upon the mental health of the adult they grow up to be. For thirty or forty years, this fact was obvious to the clinicians and therapists and only now has it come out because of the "collapse of the ((mental)) health system". At the last minute, apparently, it's time to get real. If this single idea gets more support, and after the usual years of nattering and peer reviews find it indeed true, then things will have to change. The first thing that might change for the better is the American judicial system which holds that the plea "not guilty by reason of insanity" is a form of malingering. The Shrinks sold out all of the accused in the 1970's and the prisons have filled up with "criminals" suffering from one of the many disorders and psychoses found in that three-lettered big book.

For those who want to debunk NLP as "non-scientific" ask them to describe the science in advanced physics. Note that most of the verbage in a science that gave us the nuclear age was, and is still, largely only theoretical. As are most of the other cutting-edge and rapidly emerging sciences. And this is a "hard science", not a "soft science" like most of the other disiplines we call science which are not much more than huge collections of theoretical exercises.

My criteria is, "does it work?" when applied in the clinic, and can it be repeated by others with predictable results. If the answer is yes, then it's probably a science (a form of academic politics). If it doesn't work, one stops trying to use it, and goes on to something else. And that's why we don't hear much about some of the "human development" studies.

For those who use the pet phase "cult", I ask them only to stop shooting themselves in the foot with that word. Go look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary and find out it means merely "a small group." And we know that all science is emerging from a "cult" -- a small group of people -- because the general public, largely semi-literate and poorly educated can't even handle their native language, let alone the jargon that attempts to clarify the esoteric meanings of many scientific insights.

I think that all this "by-pass charge" ( a useful cult term) about NLP comes from people who are threatened by the concepts (I call them the Golden Lies) of NLP which start with "You create your own reality." Now, let's see them argue with that phrase... I hope I have another page to reply.

Thank you all for being there,ignoramuses, nitpickers, mismatchers, and skeptics alike. Without your nagging, we might just sail off the edge of the world.

W.H. Bowart Author, Operation Mind Control

Hi W.H.Boward. Thanks. That reminds me of a criticism I read from a French author about NLP's loaded language. Loaded language is something that is commonly used in cults and organizations that use mind control . It is something that makes it hard to recover from cults. Its not some kind of special mind power thing, its just a way to take someone's view of themself or view of humanity, and dirty it enough to put undue fear and restriction into them. Its also a way to put fear into your peers. "This person is a mismatcher, they do not fully see things our way!" And relating to pseudoscience, I wonder how skeptical Einstein was about the nazi promotion of the "sciences" of phrenology, eugenics and physiognomy? HeadleyDown 01:30, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello WHBoward. I think a little more reality with your map might help. Nuclear theories have led to nuclear fission reactors powering whole countries and economies. Comparing that will NLP is somewhat of a joke. Also, surely your view of humanity is quite negative. You speak of the common people unable to handle their native language and unable to comprehend science. Funny, because I grew up in the country and most natives speak exactly their own language. The language belongs to them, and no amount of Hubbardesque conspiracy writing will convince them otherwise. What's more, they know snakeoil flim flam when they hear it. You see it on the TV on an infomercial, and you know for sure its just garbage. Actually, the people going for cults and NLP are actually fairly similar and have a similarly good level of education. But what they also have in common, is that they are often shiftless and insecure. When I came to this artile I thought cult meant personality cult rather than destructive or nuisance cult. You and other proNLPers here are convincing me otherwise. AliceDeGrey 05:06, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Boward's post addressed with inline commentary flavius 03:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC):

'The "Syntax" system derived from "eye patterning" movements is more of a science than anything found in the sheeple herding "sciences" of sociology or behavioral psychology or so many other supposed "sciences."'

This is problematic for several reasons: (1) it is nothing more than a bold assertion. Do you have any evidence -- in the form of peer reviewed research reults -- that demonstrates the validity of NLPs eye accessing cues theory? (2) it appears that you are operating from an idiosyncratic (and self-serving) definition of 'science'; (3) there is no such field as 'behavioral psychology'. Psychology is -- by definition -- the study of behavior so the phrase behavioral psychology' is redundant not unlike 'brain neurology'.

Hi Flavius - just for the record there was a high behavioural focus in psychology (watson/skinner) and psychologists (at least in the 90s) mainly called them "behaviourists", though they were also understood as behavioural psychologists. They still differentiate different forms of psychology, such as Cognitive Psychology, etc. I'm not sure if Boward had something specific in mind, just saying there is behavioural psych (look it up online if you have any doubts). GregA 04:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

'It looks like the "skeptics" (mismatchers in NLP lingo) got hold of this page,'

This is troubling. It is a form of ad hominem and it is redolent of the Scientology notion of 'Suppressive Person' in terms of function i.e. automatically discounting all criticism and defining an "out group".

It would be better not to label anyone skeptic/critic/proNLP/antiNLP/supporter/neutral/etc. At the moment there are people discouraging reading the research with similar arguments GregA 04:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

'and we all know that most scientists who've had breakthrough ideas are not skeptics.'

This is another bold assertion without any substantiation. From my reading of the history of science this is an entirely false assertion. The common trait of all of the great scientists is scpeticism i.e. a tendency to question everything and not accept it as true without due evidence and explanation. Albert Einstein's general relativity can be understood as an outgrowth of a sceptical disposition towards Isaac Newton's law of universal gravitation. The work of Galileo Galilei represents a scepticsm and challenge of the Aristotlian concpeption of the natural world. Nicolaeus Copernicus heliocentric theory of the solar system was a direct challenge to the Ptolemaic geocentric view. When James Clark Maxwell formulated his now famous (eponymous) equations he corrected Ampere's law. In formulating the germ theory Louis Pasteur challenged the prevailing notion of spontaneous generation. I can list many more such examples. All of the preceding scientists were highly sceptical else they would not have been prompted to demonstrate the inadequacy of an existing theory via argumentation and/or experimentation. Can you demonstrate -- with reference to actual examples of scientific deiscovery -- that this is not the case?

Agreed - skeptical enquiry is a great trait for a scientist. Cynical is not. GregA 04:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

'The top scientists are visionaries (matchers in NLP lingo.)'

No, not necessarily. Michael Faraday -- for example -- was a great scientist though he was not visionary. Faraday was distinguished as a brilliant scientist by his inquisitive nature and ability to devise ingenious experiments to test his hypotheses. 'Vision' is less associated with science and more with echnology. Scientists generally don't labour with a clear and specific conception of the future in mind. Also, this 'matcher'/'mismatcher' dichotomy is intellectually (and epistemologically) bankrupt. The universe is not that simple.

'They have an idea, then they try to prove that it works.'

No, that is how pseudoscientists operate. Scientists formulate a hypothesis and then design an experiment to attempt to falsify that hypothesis. This is a truism amongst scientists. If I formulated the hypothesis that 'all swans are white' I wouldn't test that by seeking white swans. Instead I'd seek black swans. Finding white swans would not have the intended effect of proving my hypothesis.

Well.. they have an idea, they elaborate and build it to fit all the facts they know of, then they (and others) try to falsify it. GregA 04:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

You don't appear to understand the difference between a hypothesis and a theory. flavius 09:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Vanilla Flavour, What are you saying I don't understand? Please be clearer on where you're pulling this from GregA 10:02, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

'If a scientist maintains a skeptical point of view they will most likely not be inclined to think outside the box, they will most likely not come up with the new ideas needed for innovation and change.'

In the absence of scpeticism science would stagnate. Scientists publish their results and methodology for the purpose of critical review and reproduction. Other scientists attempt to reproduce published results -- and thereby grow the body of scientific knowledge -- because they are of a scpetical disposition, they do not blindly accept the results of a novel piece of research. Can you cite any advances in science that took place as a result of uncritical accpetance of a result?

'The strongest argument that NLP is a science is (after looking at the NLP system) one looks at the neurological studies done by Karl Pribram and others at UCLA. Add to this the MRI studies done with sufferers of "multiple personality disorder", now called "dissociative Identity Disorder." Pribram's findings about the behavior of the brain, when it "switches" from one personality to another, matches the NLP model which preceded Pribram's finding and the MRI results.'

This in no way establishes NLP as a science. Also, it appears that you are operating from an impoverished map of the universe. You appear to be conflating 'science' with 'technology'. Also, the concepts that define the traditional demarcation between science and pseudoscience are derived from the works of Karl Popper and Imre Lakatos. Central to the meaning of science are the characteristics of 'falsifiability' and 'disconfirmation'. Lakatos also distinguised science by its 'progressive research program'. NLP makes many unfalsifiable claims, it has little if any predictive power, and its research program is degenerating therefore it is pseudoscience. (I can elaborate on this matter if necessary).

'The editors of this fine 💕 (a People's Encyclopedia -- what a concept) might find a way to filter out the disinformation and misinformation which flows from nay-sayers, debunkers, and cover artists.'

This attitude is symptomatic of a degenerating research program (which is a characteristic of pseudoscience). A research program is deemed 'progressive' if it at least sometimes produces new predictions that are confirmed. It is deemed as degenerating if it fails to lead to new and confirmed predictions. That is to say, in a progressive research program theoretical predictions successfully anticipate new data. In a degenarting research program the data precedes the theory, there is data "in search of a theory", post hoc explanations abound. An example of this is the addition of the notion of meta-programs to NLP, specifically to 'cognitive strategies'. When it was discovered that individuals with identical strategies presented fundamental differences the notion of meta-programs was postulated to prevent the falsification of the 'cognitive stragetgies' theory (see http://www.nlpuniversitypress.com/html2/MdMe26.html).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in science, if at any time the evidence falsifies a theory, the theory is modified and it is then, once again, tested. Sometimes a theory can not be modified, or there are so many add-ons and exceptions that the theory becomes unlikely, and if it's a strongly held theory there may be a paradigm shift. Anyway... I would have thought that the discovery of something the strategy model didn't account for and an extension to the theory would be quite normal, don't you think? GregA 04:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Lakatos addresses this concern. Lakatos conceptualises a "research program" as being comprised of a "hard core" of very general hypotheses and a "protective belt" of specific auxiliary hypotheis. According to Lakatos, experimentation and falsification is directed at the protective belt because only it is comprised of sufficiently specific hypothesis that are capable of being tested. Meta-programs are not a more specific form of what already existed in NLP, they are entirely disconnected from everything else in NLP. Empirical testing amongst the first generation NLPers showed that strategies had absolutely no predictive power: people with the same strategy for skill X produced widely varying results. If NLPs theory of cognitive strategies were itself revised then we could conceivably regard that as the addition of auxiliary hypothesis to the protective belt. However, Leslie Cameron-Bandler instead postulated another component of the NLP model of the mind in an ad hoc fashion. This is an entirely evasive manouveur designed to illegitimately save cognitive strategies from falsification. Is there any evidence that meta-programs exist? I haven't seen any. Have you? flavius 10:33, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

This is a very interesting question. First let me thank you for your specific answer addressing my question, I appreciate it. Now to the question "Is there any evidence that meta-programs exist?" - interesting because my NLP training says "No", my Psychology training says "Yes"... which is rather counter-intuitive :). The NLP school I went to does not subscribe to metaprograms mainly because they classify people as a personality type. While there is value in that because (once classified) you can then use some standard responses and processes for that type, it also removes the value of calibrating specifically to an individual and working with whatever is presented (ie. metaprograms can be a case of "work out which they are, then administer process" rather than dynamically interactive). My psych background involved alot of personality tests where this kind of classification was very common, and the scoring on different personality traits was linked to competency requirements in jobs to determine probably job-personality match (in conjunction with other measurements from resume, ability tests, assessment centres, etc). Most occupational psychologists are going to say that we do have personality traits based on the "Big 5" that were found many years back. Metaprograms are sometimes linked directly to the MBTI (Myers Briggs Type Indicators). Also, the BPS has endorsed some personality tests based on metaprograms (). An ongoing disagreement between NLP and Psych on metaprograms would _probably_ be the variability of personality traits - NLP argues they can be changed, psych argues they are relatively fixed (though as I said, I haven't trained much in metaprograms). GregA 12:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

'( NLP has deep roots in the cryptocracy's MKUltra programs. I am lumping them together under the MKU umbrella, rather than name all the programs that spanned 70 years or so.)'

The roots of NLP are well documented, refer to http://users.pandora.be/merlevede/nlpfaqc3.htm and Grinder's 'Whispering in the Wind'. I'm quite familiar with NLP and its history, there is no evidence for your wild claim.

'Once you understand that NLP is a super form of hypnosis ( modeled by Grinder and Bandler, in part, upon the practices of Milton H. Erickson, a scientist, a psychiatrist, a hypnotherapist, and a brilliant mind, great wit, and generous friend) is one of many names for an emerging science, one that comes out of the clinics where people are being treated for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (the VA gives drugs only), and the pandemic of disorders that (study your Marshall McLuhan) may be the result of technological influences.'

The above sentence is unparseable, i.e. it is ungrammatical. Also, many of the 'misnmatchers'/sceptics such as myself have had NLP training and are familiar with the primary NLP works (Magic I&II, Patterns I&II, Tranceformations and 'Frogs into Princes').

'One of the foremost specialists in psychiatry exclaimed, upon meeting me for the first time at a conference in Santa Barbara: "This country has gone mad..." I was amazed that he recognized this, not because of any lack of intelligence on his part, but because of his conditioning in medical school. When I thought about it, I remembered that he had been educated, and had practiced for many years, in a foreign country and therefore could think outside the AMA box.'

A paragraph earlier you characterised Milton Erickson as a "brilliant" mind. Erickson was educated in the North American University system, gained a degree in medicine and a post-graduate qualification in pscychiatry. He also practiced. How is it that your suspicion does not extend to Erickson. Similarly, both Grinder and Bandler were educated in North American universities. Also, the "subtext" of the above is that your behavior prompted the foremost specialist in psychiatry" to exclain "This country has gone mad". David Icke (the man that believes that amongst others George Bush, Bill and Hilary Clinton, Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mum, Bob Hope and Kris Kristofferson are shape shifting reptiles) wasn't part of this conference was he? Who was this unnamed 'foremost specialist in psychiatry'?

'When you think about the Diagnostic and Statistical Manuals, you realize that it's largely a sorting mechanism, tagging a variety of transitory conditions with a variety of names, and having the bias of attempting to find pharmaceutical treatments with drugs for symptoms, masking the cause of the symptom, making life hard on clients and health care providers, and easy on the insurance companies who are represented on the panels which decide what will and will not go into any particular edition. (For example, compare the DSM-III with the DSM- IV.)'

How is chronic depression "transitory"? The symptoms and phenomenology of mental illnesses such as depression, paranoid-schizophrenia, obsessive-compulsive disorder and phobia are largely consistent within the same person and between different people (and even different cultures) and they are clustered consistently. You appear to be alluding to the common NLP "article of faith" that menatal illness is a nominalisation (in a somewhat incoherent manner). There is no evidence that mental illness is merely a nominalisation.

Headley said some stuff about nominalisations and theories contradicting NLP and I enquired about what had been said. He wasn't able to answer, but perhaps you know of some stuff I can read about nominalisations (outside of NLP theory). Certainly I would say that some mental illnesses are approached as a disease that someone has, rather than a cognitive process, and that that will affect how it is treated. GregA 04:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Greg. OK its time to do some linguistics explanation: Apart from the fact that there is no evidence that NLP has lived up to its many promises of providing magical solutions for ailing mankind. But there is more to explain in terms of erroneous concepts:

So much of it is built on untested hypotheses and is supported by totally inadequate data. Additionaly, because, by Chomskys own admission, the concept of deep structure remains an untested hypothesis. So we have assumptions built on assumptions. This is extremely inappropriate and NLP being pseudoscientific.

Bandler and grinder seem to have introduced terms and ideas of their own that are not part of the accepted body of linguistics. Nominalization is a grammatical transformation but according to Bandler and Grinder, nominalizations constitute linguistic distortions. There is no evidence of any kind of this being the case. Works on linguistics make no mention of distortions arising from nominalizations. The same goes for deletions. There is no mention whatsoever in linguistics of this taking place.

They also make mistakes about nominalizations and vagueness. Vagueness can come from nominalizations, but it is really no way the universal that they make out.

All of NLP’s linguistics concepts have the same problems. This is why linguistics books do not have a mention of them. The same is true for neurolinguistics. Actually, neurolinguistics can be defined as the study of speech defects. So NLP could be defined as the study of programming speech defects:) HeadleyDown 12:09, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Headley, I thought you had something more though, you implied some research. Remember NLP is not built on Chomskey, it's built on modeling linguistic patterns. They happened to fit with Chomskey's theories (which you say have not been tested). AFAIK linguistics do not judge whether there is a problem due to deletion - they just note that there is some unknown information that must actually be there. It is in practical use that we explore what the person has placed in that unknown spot (by asking what specifically, how, who, etc). Grinder and Bandler never talk about universal laws, just patterns that are worth exploring. I'd really like to know the nominalisation issue, I wonder if your representation is all there is to it - perhaps it really is that simple?. THanks. GregA 12:28, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Greg, I get the impression you wish to ignore the writings and claims of Bandler and Grinder. They make claims, and linguists state that it is simplistic nonsense and only there for promotional/confusion value. Bandler, Grinder, Dilts and others talk about universal application. They state that it is about form and not content (all form and no content) and therefore can be applied to everything. Now, in my book, that is a universally applied panacea. It is also the view of many of the critics already cited. The nominalizations issue is really that simple. B+G get it wrong throughout, and then claim to build a pragmatic method on it's back. What is happening really though, is they know that big names sell (Chomsky, Perls, Huxley etc) and they present those names together with a pseudo-scientific psychobabblefest with a new age/magical facade. People buy into the cult. The smart ones work out what is happening to them and exit the cult. HeadleyDown 13:18, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Headley, you are either confused or being confusing. We weren't talking about whether NLP has universal application - you said that vagueness was not a universal characteristic of nominalisations, and said that NLP teaches that it is. I responded simply to that (NLP does not teach that a deletion, distortion, or generalisation is a problem, rather that it MAY indicate an impoverished map - this is different from it ALWAYS indicating an impoverished map). Further, linguists are qualified to state if a linguistic theory is simplistic, but rather unqualified to judge that "it is only there for promotional/confusion value". I see you've added some more judgements about mentioning Perls, Chomsky as strategy to sell, a total POV from you that discounts NLP's beginings. GregA 22:04, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Greg, as always, I am writing from other people's perspective. I was quoting Levelt and other linguists and their expert view of NLP's blunders. You seem to be giving your own biased interpretation based on your desire to deny anything that nonproNLPers write. HeadleyDown 02:07, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

NLP nominalizations come from a debunked (even during the 60s) linguistic relativism perspective. That should be clear enough to anyone that NLP proponents are just taking a bunch of jargon and hyping it up to an unsubstantiated pragmatic method (that fails). Bookmain 06:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

That's a start in the explanation. Do you know of any psych research on the use of either deliberate nominalisation, or deliberate denominalisation? I'm far more interested in the psych research of what works than in the linguistic background. Greg 203.217.56.137 07:22, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

'Recently, for the first time, a science journal has published a series of articles in which a number of leading practitioners agreed that the abuse of a child has profound affects upon the mental health of the adult they grow up to be. For thirty or forty years, this fact was obvious to the clinicians and therapists and only now has it come out because of the "collapse of the ((mental)) health system". At the last minute, apparently, it's time to get real. If this single idea gets more support, and after the usual years of nattering and peer reviews find it indeed true, then things will have to change. The first thing that might change for the better is the American judicial system which holds that the plea "not guilty by reason of insanity" is a form of malingering. The Shrinks sold out all of the accused in the 1970's and the prisons have filled up with "criminals" suffering from one of the many disorders and psychoses found in that three-lettered big book.'

What science journal? Can you provide a citation?

'For those who want to debunk NLP as "non-scientific" ask them to describe the science in advanced physics.'

NLP isn't merely unscientific, it doesn't work any better than placebo. What topic in advanced physics do you want an explanation of?

There is lots of research both for and against, with arguments over the quality of the research, whether it tested the NLP process effectively, etc. NLP must go much further if it wishes to encourage consistent results (which may support or not support what they're testing) ... inconsistent results are not helpful at all in improving a field. The psychological research is not helpful at this stage and NLP practitioners, rather than helping psychologists, are using internal NLP methods of sensory acuity and modeling. It would be useful for NLP to work with psychology. GregA 04:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Greg. You are ignoring what scientists have said since the 80s, that the little support that NLP gets is explained by influences other than NLP. So NLP itself fails in those cases. The majority of studies show NLP does not work. More recently, scientists explain that extrapolating success from minor studies (as shown on FT2's effort) is no evidence at all for efficacy. Bookmain 06:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

'Note that most of the verbage in a science that gave us the nuclear age was, and is still, largely only theoretical.'

The fact that the nuclear age actually exists and has artifacts (eg. nuclear power plants, nuclear weapons, medical imaging, radiotherapy, atomic clocks, radiocarbon dating, geiger counters) makes it plain that nuclear physics is not 'largely only theoretical'.

'As are most of the other cutting-edge and rapidly emerging sciences.'

NLP is neither scientific (according to the criteria of falsifiability, disconfirmation and progressive research program) nor is it cutting-edge (it is based on linguistic, psychological and neurological theories from the 1970s, when Bandler was studying at university).

'And this is a "hard science", not a "soft science" like most of the other disiplines we call science which are not much more than huge collections of theoretical exercises.'

It's not science. You've yet to establish NLP as a science let alone a 'hard science'.

'My criteria is, "does it work?" when applied in the clinic, and can it be repeated by others with predictable results. If the answer is yes, then it's probably a science (a form of academic politics). If it doesn't work, one stops trying to use it, and goes on to something else. And that's why we don't hear much about some of the "human development" studies.'

How do you know that when NLP "works" in the clinic you aren't merely witnessing the effect of non-specific factors?

Absolutely. I mean, I'm using an outcome rating scale I've licensed from a psychology company, but it only measures outcomes. How do I know WHAT SPECIFICALLY I did that made the difference. It is one thing to know something is effective overall, and another challenge to determine which elements are necessary and sufficient for the result (a challenge also noted as part of NLP modeling). Sometimes and for some people the necessary element might simply be "belief"... (ala the placebo!).

This is the purpose of matched controls. The use of matched controls that are administered a placebo serve to allow us to separate the specific factors of the treatment from the non-specific factors and to determine if a novel treatment is more effective than placebo. The absence of matched controls is why clinical reports are merely a form of anecdote and hence are unreliable. This is difficult for NLP practitioners to accept. flavius 09:56, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi vanillus. When you are using multiple different processes for change (including rapport, unconscious signals and calibration, intention & consequences, well-formed outcomes, 6 step reframes & parts negotiations, as well as standard meta-model violations, spatial anchoring, etc - how do you replace one of those with a placebo? The idea, as nice as it sounds and as useful as it would be, simply doesn't translate into this kind of context. And if you work with a whole control group, you get what I describe above. This is the crux of the researcher-practitioner divide, you may have heard of it. GregA 10:11, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

My name is Flavius. The Vanillus is just a pun because Flavius looks and sounds like flavor. This is a non-problem. "apport, unconscious signals and calibration, intention & consequences, well-formed outcomes, 6 step reframes & parts negotiations, as well as standard meta-model violations, spatial anchoring" all comprise the treatment, call it X. We want to know whether X is more effective than placebo. Initially we aren't concerned with what elements of X are effective and which aren't -- to proceed otherwise would be presumptuous. In a single-blinded study with matched controls we administer X to a treatment group and we get the control group to tap their knee repeatedly, rub their stomach and repeat "Richard Bandler is a genius" ten times. Then we compare the results. flavius 10:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I know and agree, I was arguing exactly that a few weeks back. Most NLP studies rather than taking NLP generally, have focussed on using just one section (in the 80s that was eye-accessing cues). I only know of the one (Mendslitch?) outcome based study (including control group) that worked with NLP processes openly as you suggest. It is quite possible that eye-accessing cues are insignificant and if so they should be dumped... though the overall combination is still effective. One problem with outcome based research like this is that there may be just one key pattern that's effective (take for instance the original meta-model, which is almost identical to the cognitive distortions of CBT). Headley a month ago described my explanation of NLP as sounding like CBT, he suggested I study CBT instead... perhaps that was my specific NLP training. Anyway, interesting. Thanks Flavius. GregA 12:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

'For those who use the pet phase "cult", I ask them only to stop shooting themselves in the foot with that word. Go look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary and find out it means merely "a small group." And we know that all science is emerging from a "cult" -- a small group of people -- because the general public, largely semi-literate and poorly educated can't even handle their native language, let alone the jargon that attempts to clarify the esoteric meanings of many scientific insights.'

The word cult has a distinct meaning when used by cult experts such as Lifton, Singer and Hassan. Your post could readily be characterised as semi-literate, uninformed and delusional.

'I think that all this "by-pass charge" ( a useful cult term) about NLP comes from people who are threatened by the concepts (I call them the Golden Lies) of NLP which start with "You create your own reality." Now, let's see them argue with that phrase... I hope I have another page to reply.'

I don't think so. Many people -- including myself -- that are critical of NLP commenced its study without any preconceptions and biases and parted with many thousands of dollars attending seminars and purchasing video/audio tapes. A younger -- more naive -- version of me was drawn by the promises and claims of NLP only to find after many years and many dollars that the emperor has no clothes and that I had been duped. I never felt "threatened" or challenged by any aspect of NLP. I found that it doesn't work (the expensive way) and I had the courage to admit I had been deceived and swindled out of my money and proceeded to extricate myself from the NLP 'community'. Many NLPers assume that its not working because they haven't understood something and keep returning to seminars and buying more tapes and books hoping that it will eventually click. My investigations -- after I grieved my loss of time and money and resolved the implications to my self-identity if being taken for a ride -- confirmed my suspicions. flavius 03:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

My own experience has been very positive, though I have to admit that I work heavily with the metamodel and 6 step reframes (with all the other principles as support - chunking up/down (intention), focus in time, ecology, rapport, anchoring, triple description). I've found this effective (none of this thinking I didn't understand something or spending more money on courses). Though I'm yet to build that same confidence (including anecdotal support or non-support) for some other 'popular' patterns like collapsing anchors, swish, etc. GregA 12:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

NLP can be used to model people effectively entering a cult or successfully leave a cult (eg. Charles Figley says that Steven Hassan uses some NLP processes (eg. change personal history and double dissociation process, VK/D) to help people recover from cults). The technology is amoral in that respect. That's why ecological considerations and checking for consequences of any changes is so important. Many NLP trainers consider the meta model to be an antidote to mind control allowing people to free themselves from indoctrination of political or religious organisation by challenging some of the classic examples of logical fallacy put forward by these organisations. Notice how many linguists (Chomsky, Lakoff, etc) have also people anti-doctrination advocates. --Comaze 06:22, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Comaze. Chomsky and Lakoff are not NLP advocates. Steve Hassan does not primarily use NLP to help people recover from cults. The metamodel is actually used in a cultish way in newsgroups. Just as the author chappy above used the loaded language (missmatcher) people also use the metamodel to demand clarity in everything people say, to literally shout them down by claiming they are unclear. Then they take a self help pseudoscience tome out of their pocket and give a sermon. Actually, if it were appropriate to post the delusional nonsense NLP devotees talk about on newsgroups, this article would be both hillarious and very worrying. HeadleyDown 11:26, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

A skillful NLP practitioner knows that the meta model is used on a need to know basis for information gathering. If someone is being very vague, then it is perfectly fine to ask direct specifying questions, such as, "What definition of cults are you using, HeadleyDown?" I address your questions about Hassan above (it was directly from Charles Figley a very well respected scientist with excellent reputation). Grinder (Whispering, 2001) acknowledges Chomsky as the single biggest contributor to NLP epistemology. Lakoff was also quoted directly in Structure of Magic Vol.1 (1975) and references in Patterns (1977-78) but is not as important as Chomsky. --Comaze 12:01, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello there... so "You create your own reality." Not something I subscribe to... what do you want to argue about that phrase? "You create your own map" (subjective experience) .... that is fair enough. GregA 07:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Meta Programs

I fail to see the relevance of (pignotti) so I'll focus on matcher/mismatcher idea. As far as Matcher/mismatcher categorisation of people is NOT valid in NLP. These categories originate from metaprograms or MBTI -- both content categorisation models. Some 3rd generation "NLP" trainers have uncritically imported metaprograms into NLP. Grinder is intolerant of this kind of logic -- labelling someone as a "matcher/mismatcher" is epistemologically dodgy. --Comaze 02:28, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Excellent, Comaze. I love to see pseudoscientists disagreeing with each other. It reminds me (after a jolly good transderivational search) that NLPers are not completely hopeless. DaveRight 02:32, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Dave, To be more specific I was referring to the disagreement between John Grinder (and the trainers who agree that metaprograms do not belong in NLP) and for example, Leslie-Cameron Bandler who was responsible for developing and including meta programs in her version of NLP. Here's an example, "Meta-programs are content categories." ... "I consider it to be less than professional to engage in these so-called meta-programs. They're substantive. They are impositions of other people's belief systems on yours. And I will not engage in that." (John Grinder, 1986, p.238) --Comaze 03:23, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Dave. I'm all for representing the differences in NLP in some way.. they really SHOULD be in there, there are strong differences in opinions, etc. GregA 06:59, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. FT2 13:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Just to remind folks, there is now a page citing the other side of NLP research which some editors seem to feel does not exist. Given the amount of vitriol and POV suppression, breaches of policy, and personal attacks and remarks, this link is reposted so that all editors who wish, can independently and neutrally review a partial list of research and citations "as is" and consider their own opinion, in accordance with WP:NPOV's view that good quality information should be able to stand and speak almost for itself. (Also, so that it doesn't become deluged by spam or apparent sock-puppet posts, this link will also be moved to the bottom of this page for the next while). FT2 20:26, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Note also that if you wish to write your neutral assessment of FT2's collection of notes, you will probably have it removed from that page by FT2, even though FT2 has pasted his own pro-NLP POV all over the page. HeadleyDown 03:23, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I quickly reviewed FT2's truncated abstracts and citations and I offer the following observations: (a) at least some are not sourced from reputable, peer-reviewed journals; and (b) most of the summaries are replete with vague and imprecise quantificational language (eg. "most helpful", "positive correlation" (magnitude?), "partially positive effects", "strongly related", "marked improvement", "positive reduction", "deeper trance", "substantially", "very helpful", "enormous changes", "very many of the people" etc.). The use of such vague language is evidence of methodological defect. I have reviewed some of the cited literature and I too am of the view that NLP is largely -- if not entirely -- without substance, ineffective (beyond non-specific factors) and without any scientific basis. flavius 08:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

In principle you are right, and doubtless some will be found unreliable or not as well documented as you would hope. I'd be amazed if it wasn't. Bear in mind what you have is essentially highly compressed abstracts, often of long papers, so you should expect some raw data to be missing, as see my comment above. My purpose in that page was simple. HeadleyDown and others stated they were unaware (ie, ignorant) of any research into NLP nor any credible use. There is now a list of prima facie what appears to be purported credible research and use. The use is confimed by links. The research listed will now need more reading to validate the details and small print, and ascertain which appears credible and which does not.

Look FT2, your misrepresentation of my words is consistent with your misrepresentational comments on the alternative promotion research page. I have indeed seen the research you present, and it is simply a small part of the larger review. There were other papers there that I simply glossed over because they are simply promotional NLP pseudoscience. It was actually quite entertaining to read through them (especially that Ausie Doctor with the ponytail). But the fact remains; After months of the rigorous overview and review research being presented on the article, the NLP promoters are still trying to find ways to remove/censor them (which they have actually spent months physically doing). Certainly what I originally said holds true: The scientific view is that NLP is scientifically unsupported, and the view that NLP is pseudoscience is highly significant. HeadleyDown 02:06, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

An editor with credibility would respond: "Okay, yes, there are credible sounding researches. Now let's look and see how reliable they are". Then again, an editor with credibility would have spotted the flawed and misrepresentative presentation of the existing research and gone looking for other research instead of accepting a partisan view, too. An editor with credibility would have pulled morgan out, read dietrich carefully and checked the BPS's real view both online and in other ways. Nobody else did. So in a way, it doesn't surprise me. (Thats not personal as it applies to several editors many of whom made claims to "know" what the "truth" was, or who stated they wanted a hard "scientific" line. Hard science means being a skeptic - of both sides. And checking - both sides. A scientist is a sceptic and considers flaws even in his own work)

Any credible editor would accept the scientific fact and realise that scientists do actually do research on this subject. Certainly neutral editors would not snip the last negative words off a paragraph, or place their own unsupported views within the article multiple times out of desperation because they want to promote their belief system/hobby/business HeadleyDown 02:06, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Even so, the wording seems a little ingenuous, flavius. "At least some are not sourced from reputable...". Thats a sleight of hand wording: it means that if a significant number appear suggestive, one can still say "well some are not". May I have your comment on those that are? Given that I've at least bothered to try and source information and check references, whilst apparently, most here have not? FT2 19:12, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Even so, the wording seems a little ingenuous, flavius. "At least some are not sourced from reputable...". Thats a sleight of hand wording: it means that if a significant number appear suggestive, one can still say "well some are not". May I have your comment on those that are? Given that I've at least bothered to try and source information and check references, whilst apparently, most here have not? FT2 19:12, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Do you mean disingenuous? If so that was not my intent, I did not have the time when I made that remark to be precise. Here is a partial list with my comments:

Forster,C., Jansen, A., Margenrot ,L, Unterberger, G., (1993) "Medias of psychotherapy. What conditions are decisive for rapport?" College of Hildesheim-Holzminden, Germany, FB Sozialpädagogik Comment: Unpublished paper

Macroy, T.D. (1978) "Linguistic surface structures in family interaction" Utah State University Comment: Unpublished paper

Cheek, D., (1981) "Awareness of Meaningful Sounds Under General Anaesthesia." in Theoretical and Clinical aspects of Hypnosis, Symposium Specialists, Comment: Not indexed by Medline

Dilts, R. and Epstein, T., (1995) Dynamic Learning, Meta, Capitola, California (reports Loiselle (1985) and Malloy (1989)) Comment: Publsihed in book, Loiselle (1985) and Malloy (1989) not published in any journal index by Medline

Acosta JK, Levenson RL Jr. (2002) "Observations from Ground Zero at the World Trade Center in New York City, Part II: Theoretical and clinical considerations.",Int J Emerg Ment Health. pring;4(2):119-26. Comment: Not a report of a study but merely a set of suggestions for for emergency field medicine.

Frank (1997) Comment: Not indexed my Medline

Genser-Medlitsch, Martina; Schütz, Peter: "Does Neuro-Linguistic psychotherapy have effect?" ÖTZ-NLP, Wiederhofergasse 4, A-1090, Wien, Austria, 1997. Comment: Not indexed by Medline

Konefal J, Duncan RC, Reese MA (1992) "Neurolinguistic programming training, trait anxiety, and locus of control." Psychol Rep. 1992 Jun;70(3 Pt 1):819-32. Comment: Methodologically flawed, "A matched control group was not available, and follow-up was unfortunately not possible."

Swack, J.A. (1992) "A study of initial response and reversion rates of subjects treated with the allergy technique." Anchor Point 6, 3:1-10 Comment: Anchor Point is an NLP magazine and is not indexed by Medline

Unterberger Ulbrich (1998) Comment: Not indexed by Medline

Weerth (1992) Comment: Not indexed by Medline

Baxter (1994) Comment: Not indexed by Medline

If a medical journal is not indexed by Medline then it is obscure and without reputation. This explains the imprecise language I mentioned earlier. I conjecture that most (80%+) of your citations are either not indexed by Medline, methodologically flawed or mispresented. flavius 04:45, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Yo FT2. You want ingenuous, you have a look at your own hype page:) DaveRight 03:20, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi again FT2. I just took another look at your "promote pseudoscience - dismiss science" research page and it looks like the biggest bunch of fraudulent nonsense I have seen on wikipedia. Not only is it there to promote a logically and intellectually fraudulent psuedoscience (NLP) but it namedrops all these scientific looking names, but none of the journals/papers are mentioned. For all we know, they all come from the "Xenu Journal of Pseudoscience". I also made comments, and I expect them to remain there (this is wikipedia where anyone can write something). If you remove my comments, I will restore them. DaveRight 03:47, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Just reading your 2nd sentence and your labeling of the page and it's obvious you're approaching it in an open minded manner - skeptical but not cynical :). Oh... 3rd sentence too - "to promote an intellectually fraudulent pseudoscience". You must be the 5th person (or username) who has said "give us the journal names" and I agree we should make really clear the quality of anything quoted on the main page (we should do that with Platt & Morgan too! Wow!). As FT2 responded the other 4 or so times, he's presented some alternatives in order to build a neutral argument with ALL the facts (not having the skeptics discussion group as a primary source) - and IMO to ask all editors to help evaluate the research fairly so we can make a great article. Also there are quite a lot of well cited evidence would you care to comment on those, or keep your current agenda? GregA 04:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC) p.s That goes for me too... time to start looking at what's good in there and what's not, and bring the good stuff into the article in a representative manner :)

The characterisation of NLP as "intellectually fraudulent pseudoscience" is the mainstream scientific evaluation of NLP. I expanded some FT2s brief citations into full citations. Most of the one's I expanded refer to obscure journals that aren't even indexed by Medline. Some are so obscure that I couldn't expand them and did an author/keyword search on Medline and failed to locate them. To "evaluate the research fairly so we can make a great article" would constitute original research, which is contrary to Misplaced Pages policy. Literature reviews have been performed and they arrive at the view that NLP is "intellectually fraudulent pseudoscience". flavius 04:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Damned if you do, damned if you don't eh? I say we should look at the quality and you say we can't do that, yet you just expanded FT2's stuff to say it was too obscure. All I'm saying is why not do exactly what you did for FT2, with the research currently cited (start with Platt and Morgan). To not do this would be hypocritical. GregA (aka 203.*) 07:18, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

203.217.56.137. As DaveRight below states you seem to have missed the point. You can look at the research that FT2 cited by all means. Understand though that specialists -- people that know more about the constituent topics (linguistics, neurology, psychopathology, trauma etc.) than you or I -- have reviewed the literature (at least that published in reputable journals) and concluded that it is bunkum. You are pretending that no research scientist is aware of the literature cited by FT2 and that new ground will potentially be broken on Misplaced Pages. This won't happen for at least two reasons: literature reviews have already been conducted and their conclusions are that NLP is unsupported scientificlly; and Misplaced Pages is not the place for original research (even if it is doomed to be still-born). Expanding the citations is not a violation of Misplaced Pages policy. My point in expanding what I could was to show that the journals cited are marginal, not credible, not reputable and hence unreliable. It says much about the marginality of the citations that I couldn't expand some of them at all. FT2 has collected what is largely a bunch of junk research. flavius 09:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, I made no suggestion at all we should do any original research. I'd like to know whether the Skeptic's Dictionary (etc) is included in your list of citeable research. I am AGREEING that the quality of research is important and that there is stuff there that was not published in research journals. FOr instance, some seems to be research for Psych honours or Masters programs - it seems that by your standards these students should have written a web page instead of done a year or 2 of original research, then they might be worthy of being quoted. 203.217.56.137 09:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

'FOr instance, some seems to be research for Psych honours or Masters programs - it seems that by your standards these students should have written a web page instead of done a year or 2 of original research, then they might be worthy of being quoted.' How so? Unpublished dissertations have not had circulation amongst peers and have not received the critical scrutiny that papers published in reputable journals receive. I don't understand where you got the idea that I regard only material on the web as worthy of quotation. The negative reviews cited in the NLP article do not appear online. flavius 10:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Flavius. Sorry about that - I made an assumption you were implicitly justifying the current quotes already on the page (like Sanghera, Platt, Morgan, Carrol). I agree that an unpublished dissertation doesn't have critical scrutiny like those published in reputable journals, my main point is they have more scrutiny (and time invested and scientific focus) than many opinion pieces. GregA 22:40, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello um, 203something. I do believe you are missing the point. FT2 deliberately did not use references in his little research page because it does not look good for his NLP promotion drive. Flavius has made is very clear that FT2 is trying to pull the wool. The fact is, there is a significant scientific view that NLP is a kind of Scientology for the terminally insecure (ie pseudoscientific nonsense). There is something emerging here though. Yourself and FT2, and other NLP promoters are generally taking an anti-science stance. This is also reflected in NLP as a whole, especially in NLP advocate's refusal to face the empirical results of research that state NLP is scientifically unsupported. I think Platt and Morgan are more practitioner views than scientific, though they both have very good credentials - Platt as a respected management training author, and Morgan as a PhD and psychotherapist who prefers direct interaction rather than dubious physiognomy readings. DaveRight 07:46, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Splendid, Flavius. I know its hard enough trying to explain to these people what a scientific view is. I work in a research library and still find it hard to find the time to repeat explain things to the NLP promoters. It seems that empirical evidence is not acceptable to those of the promotional persuasion. So well done with the science view explanations. No doubt they will have to be reiterated at a later point and I am sure some re-pasting of your research will be in order. Its good to see people such as yourself making good use of the most neutral and clear view around (independent scientific research). Certainly NLP is pseudoscience from theory to practice. Their fraud does extend beyond the intellectual though. There are a few cases of proposed NLP cancer and deafness cures that have had to be dealt with through litigation. Anyway, your work is much appreciated. ATB Bookmain 06:05, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

DaveRight, there is a limit to what one person can do. If you, or others, truly were interested in neutrality, you would perhaps have looked up references and helped. FT2 16:01, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Medline and existing references

In the meantime, flavius, I have two questions regarding your points, which are on the surface reasonable ones. But to test that they are reasonable, a question for you. You stated: "If a medical journal is not indexed by Medline then it is obscure and without reputation". I know medline is an authority in medicine. I know it has many many articles and it's part of the Library of Medicine. What I do not know or pretend to know is, its criteria and procedures, nor whether it is such an authority that every journal relevant to hypnotherapy, psychotherapy, psychology or similar that is not indexed is "without reputation", nor that a paper not being indexed by medline makes it suspect. These sound like "puff" -- exaggeration for effect. Could you provide some solid credible sources to confirm whats sound very much like a personal assertation which medline itself probably would not agree is valid? I'd like a solid medical research source that agrees with you, because I find that an incredible statement. My personal guess is that your words are inadvertantly overstated. Can you confirm whether you meant them as I understand you to mean?

Please refer http://www.nlm.nih.gov/pubs/factsheets/jsel.html. Medline is the largest life science and biomedical bibliographic database. Medline indexes many psycological journals. As a rule of thumb it is true that if a journal is not indexed by Medline it is not credible or at least suspect. Further, if it is not indexed by Medline relatvely few experts are likely to have read it and most periodical collections of research libraries will not carry it. Of course this isn't a hard and fast rule its a heuristic that is generally accepted by researchers. If perhaps two or three of your citations were not indexed by Medline and the balance were then your compilation would be respectable. Unfortunately, a pattern emerges in your list of citations. Many -- perhaps most, I haven't checked all of them -- of your citations aren't indexed. So as a body of evidence the citations you provided are lacking: the number of citations that support the efficacy of NLP are numerically small (in comparison to well-accepted clinical interventions); and but they are sourced from unreputable journals. flavius 01:16, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Second, in any event, can you answer GregA's query, I assume you have also looked up the citations posed by Headley & Co on medline too. Can you let me know the results? Thanks. FT2 15:55, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I have looked up some of them. The journal that Drenth (2003) is published in is indexed. Most of the others are books and are not listed (since Medline does not index books). This isn't a problem because the citations are critical reviews rather than novel proposals. Heap (1998), Heap (1989), Lilienfeld (2003), Williams (2000), Salerno (2005), Singer (1999) are books that present literature reviews and critical analysis, i.e. they are a form of meta-analysis (not necessarily in the sense of the formal statistical method) of literature that has already been published and/or notices that there is no evidence for a particular claim or set of claims. flavius 01:14, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

FT2. Flavius' criteria are indeed quite similar to the ones I see when I review publishable papers. You look for reliability and rigour. If it does not appear, you reject the paper and it gets published at a less rigorous journal. I do not know the exact method the researchers used to accept or reject papers, however there are plenty of hints in the review papers already. However, the fact remains, those reputable researchers and many other reputable writers hold the scientific view that NLP is unsupported and pseudoscientific.HeadleyDown 17:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm looking for evidence of a common standard applied to papers that support NLP and papers that dismiss it. On the one hand I see mass dismissal of some 100 papers, although it is likely a significant number are indicative. On the other I see people like Morgan. Headley, it's very hard to take your words about research seriously when I see little or no evidence of any attempt by you to apply a common standard both ways. In any event, the question was for flavius, who does appear to have thought about the matter. I'd like his considered view please. FT2 17:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello! Flavius has shown that some of the sources on the research page are not in Medline. I agree with FT2 that medline is a medical database... perhaps psyclit is more relevant (though I don't think it's online). Anyway, I have just spent a bit of time going through our references on the main page looking them up on medline (and their authors to check whether a book author or web author is listed with research background).

No that is incorrect Medline is not only a medical database. It indexes all of the life sciences and biomedical sciences. For example, an exact phrase search "cognitive behavioral therapy"/"cognitive behavioural therapy" yields 3255 citations (2334 + 921). The exact phrase search "neurolinguistic programming" yields 78 citations and many aren't reserach papers and some find against the efficacy of NLP (I'll investigate the distribution of negative/positive results and report later). flavius 01:26, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

...Criticism

• Derks and Hollander (1998) Systemic Voodoo. ISBN 1907388896

Not in Medline (we don't expect a book to be - this refers to authors also not on Medline)

• Robert Todd Carroll, Robert T. Carroll (2003) The Skeptic's Dictionary Publisher: Wiley; The Skeptic's Dictionary: neuro-linguistic programming (NLP).

Not in Medline (again, don't expect a website to be - refers to R Carroll).

• . 0787902780. {{cite book}}: Missing or empty |title= (help); Unknown parameter |Author= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Publisher= ignored (|publisher= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Title= ignored (|title= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Year= ignored (|year= suggested) (help)
• Salerno, S (2005); Sham : How the Self-Help Movement Made America Helpless. Crown Publishers ISBN 1400054095

Not in Medline

• Sanghera, S (Aug 26, 2005). "Look into my eyes and tell me I'm learning not to be a loser". {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |org= ignored (help)

Not in Medline

• Scott O. Lilienfeld, Steven Jay Lynn, and Jeffrey M. Lohr (Eds.) (2003) Science and Pseudoscience in Clinical Psychology. Guilford Press, New York. ISBN 1-57230-282-1,.

Book not in Medline of course - though Authors have many articles cited in medline. .....Scientific review of NLP

• Bördlein, Christoph (2001). Das "Neurolinguistische Programmieren" (NLP) - Hochwirksame Techniken oder haltlose Behauptungen? Schulheft, 103 , 117-129.

Not in Medline

• Drenth, J.D. (2003) Growing anti-intellectualism in Europe; a menace to science. Studia Psychologica, 2003, 45, 5-13

Not in Medline

• . ISBN 0309037921 http://www.nap.edu/books/0309037921/html. {{cite book}}: Missing or empty |title= (help); Unknown parameter |Author= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Pages= ignored (|pages= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Publisher= ignored (|publisher= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Title= ignored (|title= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Year= ignored (|year= suggested) (help) Retrieved 25 Aug 2005

Book not in Medline (of course), Author Druckman is.

• Ekman The Observer. CRIME UNCOVERED: YOUVE GOT THE LOOK: WOULD YOU LIE TO ME? London (UK): Apr 27, 2003. pg. 58

Not in Medline

• Template:Journal reference

Not in Medline

• Template:Journal reference

Not in Medline

• Beyerstein. B.L. (1997) Why Bogus Therapies Seem to Work. Skeptical Inquirer magazine. September/October 1997

Not in Medline

• Beyerstein, B. (2001). Fringe psychotherapies: The public at risk. The Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine, 5, 70-79.

Not in Medline - he has a different article in another journal.

• Template:Journal reference
  Retrieved 24 Aug 2005.

Not in Medline

• Template:Journal reference

Not in Medline. There is a Bliemeister J mentioned in medline, unsure if it's him.

• Heap, M. (1989) Neurolinguistic programming: What is the evidence? In D Waxman D. Pederson. I, Wilkie, and P Mellett(Eds) Hypnosis: The fourth european congress at Oxford (pp 118-124) London. Whurr Publishers.

Not in Medline - Author is.

• Williams, W F. general editor.(2000) Encyclopedia of pseudoscience

Publisher Facts On File New York. Not in Medline

• Helisch. M (2004) Veranstaltung:- Gesellschaftliche Funktion, Entwicklung und Sozialisation von Emotionen Seitenzahl: 39 Issue: 1

Not in Medline

• Raso. J. (1994) "Alternative" Healthcare: A Comprehensive Guide. Prometheus Books. ISBN: 0879758910

Not in Medline

• Winn, C.M , and Wiggins,A.W (2001) QUANTUM LEAPS..in the wrong direction: Where real science ends and pseudoscience begins. Joseph Henry Press.

Not in Medline ...Psychology theory

• Template:Journal reference

Yes, in medline

• Derks, L. & Goldblatt, R.,(1985) The Feedforward Conception of Consciousness: A Bridge between Therapeutic Practice and Experimental Psychology. The William James Foundation, Amsterdam.

... Human Resources

• Hardiman (1994) NLP background and issues. Industrial relations review and report No 560 May

Not in Medline

• Template:Journal reference

Not in Medline - though Von Bergen has a couple of research articles.

• . ISBN 0787967416. {{cite book}}: Missing or empty |title= (help); Unknown parameter |Author= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Publisher= ignored (|publisher= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Title= ignored (|title= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Year= ignored (|year= suggested) (help)
  See Margaret Singer and Excerpts from 'Cults in Our Midst' Retrieved 25 Aug 2005

Not in Medline.

• Krugman, Kirsch, Wickless, Milling, Golicz, & Toth (1985). Neuro-linguistic programming treatment for anxiety: Magic or myth? Journal of Consulting & Clinical Psychology. Vol 53(4), 526-530.

Yes, in medline.

I may have missed some authors in my searches of course (eg Salerno S has articles but it's a different field, and in italian, unlikely to be our Salerno S?). I'm only putting these here to put things in perspective. Hope it helps. GregA 01:18, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

GregA. Studia Psychologica -- the journal in which Drenth (2000) is published is/was indexed by Medline. The issue at hand is the credibility of the journals that published the research cited by FT2. I proposed the widely accepted heuristic of referring to whether the publication in question is or was indexed by Medline. Additionally we can check whether a given author has any publications in Medline indexed journals and we can use 'Google Scholar' to determine how many times a piece of research is cited by other researchers. I contend that you will find that most of FT2s citations are seldom cited and that the authors of the papers cited have few or no published papers in any journal indexed by Medline. I don't have the time to perform all this work and to be frank I'm not sure what the result will be if it is completed. Even at this stage it is plain that the preponderance of evidence and the consensus of expert opinion is that NLP is scientifically unsupported, of dubious value at best and outright fraudulent at worst. The brutal fact is there isn't a body of results drawn from single-blind studies with matched controls that find that an NLP intervention is more effective than placebo that has been published in reputable journals, favourably reviewed by experts and reproduced by others. This is the 'elephant in the living room' that you, FT2, Comaze et al are doing your best to ignore. My concern is that the pro-NLP participants in this discussion have abandoned the basic premises of rational discourse and are instead engaging in 'religious wars'. The NLP artcile as it currently stands is neutral, it presents the claims of NLP proponents and the critical review which challenges those claims. The problem appears to be the unfavourable reviews by experts and the highlighting of the absence of evidence is unacceptable for those whose livelihood is connected to the practice of NLP. This is understandable but it is unacceptable. flavius 01:55, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

flavius, I "didn't have time" either. I'm in the middle of selling my house and work, and the like. But when I edit an article on Misplaced Pages, I check out the subject matter responsibly, to try and get a sense what all sides are saying and why, with the intent of seeing how a balanced view can form. Someone who edits and then says "this is my view, and my main reason for not checking the other views is essentially someone else told me it isn't valid" -- whether that someone is medline, a book, or a friend -- I'm sorry. To me, that just doesn't hold weight. My primary concern is that a large volume of "something" is being ignored. Whether it is anecdotal evidence from end users of credible bodies who say "It is valuable. It works ", or whether its research that we need to examine paper by paper for credibility rather than assume, there is a significant body of "something" out there. There is mis-reporting of that "something". That is my primary concern. As I said, my impression is that a fair summary is simply, "the jury is out on NLP". There is less hard double-bind lancet-reported trials than I'd like, and on the other hand there is a lot more credence than pseudoscience given by hard nosed users such as advocacy colleges and the FBI, who are not using homeopathy, dianetics, or scientology but are recommending NLP.

Firstly, I didn't edit the NLP article so I don't see what you're hissing about. Secondly, I pulled up all the relevant citations from Medline (see below). Thirdly, I provided you the Medline indexing criteria. What's your response? Do you find the Medline expert panel lacking? Thirdly, anecdote doesn't count as evidence, especially not in matters of mental health where the placebo effect has been well documented or when many problems improve on their own without any intervention. Fourthly, it is of no significance that the FBI uses NLP. The criminal justice fields have been influenced by all manner of bunkum throughout history (eg. phrenology, craniology, physiogonomy). flavius 11:00, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

So we ought to be a little wary of saying its all junk (and NLP enthusiasts should not say its all proven), especially since several present citations state explicitly that experimental design has often been often flawed, or that whilst NLP is not proven, this does not mean it doesn't have value. When even the negative reviews say that, it's worth noting. What I would like in this article, is a balanced representation. It is not yet proven by a large number of trials. But it is also not proven or accepted by science to be invalid by a long way either, and the verdict by credible bodies is that in the field it is often felt to have proven itself useful in a way that many other methods have not. Notice how often it is one of only a handful of techniques, after filtering down, that are recommended. That is my point. Not that it should be sugar coated, or ignored, but that a balanced review is needed. When certain editors put in unwiki-ish edits, then no matter WHAT the subject itself is, we have a problem because the edits and overall slant are not fitting to the encyclopedia. When editors say "our view and only our view may prevail", thats when i go to escalate the dispute, not because I want one side or the other to win, but because they don't understand wikipedia..... FT2 03:44, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

No, it is all junk and the burden of proof is on NLP advocates to demonstrate otherwise. flavius 11:00, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, that's where you and wikipedia differ. "Its all junk" is an opinion. Misplaced Pages records opinions but does not advocate them. "NLP is gods gift to humanity" is also an opinion, and for the same reason Misplaced Pages should not say that either. There is no "burden of proof" since wikipedia is not about "proof". NLP here is descriptive. Your opinion whether NLP is right or wrong, is unimportant. What's important is that NLP is covered descriptively, and that different views that significant groups have on it are made clear, so that a reader can gain an understanding and appreciation how NLP sees itself, and how differing groups also see it. FT2 17:41, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

FT2. You and wikipedia differ a huge amount. Flavius did not write "Junk" within the article itself. But you wrote "you may notice that scientists saying NLP is ineffective is inconsistent with cults using it for power" etc. That is your opinion. And there is no actual inconsistency anyway. Cults also use Dianetics and tealeaf readings, but they are almost as ineffective as NLP. I wish to point this out because you seem to be the one person telling everyone what to do and claiming to have had deep experience of editing. If you are to live up to your claims to wiki expertise, you have a very long way to go. HeadleyDown 02:19, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Medline and NLP search

Searching for "neurolinguistic programming", in PubMed (which includes Medline) retrieves 62 citations. My earlier search on Scirus yielded 84 citations. I reviewed the 22 and found that they were either off-topic or were book reviews. What follows is the 62 citations from PubMed/MEDLINE and my comments:

1: Lyon S. Find some inner courage to beat your interview nerves. Nurs Stand. 2005 Sep 21-27;20(2):70-1. No abstract available. PMID: 16209412

COMMENT: No abstract or MEDLINE classification. Title suggests content is a discussion about calming anxiety, perhaps some NLP techniques are offered. The paper is unlikely to be a research report.

2: Grandke B. [Logopedics in neurologic rehabilitation: properly supporting patients in "home work"] Pflege Z. 2005 Apr;58(4):222-3. German. No abstract available. PMID: 15887912

COMMENT: No abstract or MEDLINE classification. Titles suggests a discussion piece with suggestions for supporting disabled patients working from home.

3: Gora EP. Usp Fiziol Nauk. 2005 Jan-Mar;36(1):97-109. Review. Russian. PMID: 15810684

COMMENT: Review/tutorial.

4: Littlewood S. A route less well travelled. Prof Nurse. 2005 Jan;20(5):54-5. No abstract available. PMID: 15683001

COMMENT: No abstract or MEDLINE classification. Unlikely to be research report.

5: Percival J. Confidence tricks. Nurs Stand. 2004 Nov 24-30;19(11):24. No abstract available. PMID: 15615168

COMMENT: No abstract or MEDLINE classification. Unlikely to be research report.

6: Theilig P. Kinderkrankenschwester. 2004 Sep;23(9):343-53. German. No abstract available. PMID: 15493861

COMMENT: No abstract or MEDLINE classification.

7: Ellis C. Neurolinguisic programming in the medical consultation. S Afr Med J. 2004 Sep;94(9):748-9. Review. No abstract available. PMID: 15487837

COMMENT: Review/tutorial.

8: Clabby J, O'Connor R. Teaching learners to use mirroring: rapport lessons from neurolinguistic programming. Fam Med. 2004 Sep;36(8):541-3. No abstract available. PMID: 15343412

COMMENT: Tutorial.

9: Chinellato P. The recovery of subject clitics in mild agrammatism: implications for treatment and linguistic analysis. Cortex. 2004 Feb;40(1):162-3. No abstract available. PMID: 15174450

COMMENT: Off-topic.

10: Woodard F. Phenomenological contributions to understanding hypnosis: review of the literature. Psychol Rep. 2003 Dec;93(3 Pt 1):829-47. Review. PMID: 14723451

COMMENT: Review.

11: Wilhelm J. Krankenpfl Soins Infirm. 2003;96(7):12-3. German. No abstract available. PMID: 14619890

COMMENT: Interview.

12: Ball MJ. Clinical applications of a cognitive phonology. Logoped Phoniatr Vocol. 2003;28(2):63-9. PMID: 14582829

COMMENT: Off-topic.

13: Nelson R, Ball MJ. Models of phonology in the education of speech-language pathologists. Clin Linguist Phon. 2003 Jun-Aug;17(4-5):403-9. PMID: 12945616

COMMENT: Off-topic.

14: Burke DT, Meleger A, Schneider JC, Snyder J, Dorvlo AS, Al-Adawi S. Eye-movements and ongoing task processing. Percept Mot Skills. 2003 Jun;96(3 Pt 2):1330-8. PMID: 12929791

COMMENT: Research study

ABSTRACT:

This study tests the relation between eye-movements and thought processing. Subjects were given specific modality tasks (visual, gustatory, kinesthetic) and assessed on whether they responded with distinct eye-movements. Some subjects' eye-movements reflected ongoing thought processing. Instead of a universal pattern, as suggested by the neurolinguistic programming hypothesis, this study yielded subject-specific idiosyncratic eye-movements across all modalities. Included is a discussion of the neurolinguistic programming hypothesis regarding eye-movements and its implications for the eye-movement desensitization and reprocessing theory.

15: Leybaert J, D'Hondt M. Neurolinguistic development in deaf children: the effect of early language experience. Int J Audiol. 2003 Jul;42 Suppl 1:S34-40. PMID: 12918608

COMMENT: Off-topic.

16: Perlak D, Jarema G. The recognition of gender-marked nouns and verbs in Polish-speaking aphasic patients. Cortex. 2003 Jun;39(3):383-403. PMID: 12870818

COMMENT: Off-topic.

17: Vianna LA, Bomfim GF, Chicone G. Rev Bras Enferm. 2002 Sep-Oct;55(5):503-8. Portuguese. PMID: 12817532

COMMENT: "Socio-drama techniques of Neurolinguistics were used and the evaluation was done according to Minayo" (from Abstract)

18: Walter J, Bayat A. Neurolinguistic programming: the keys to success. BMJ. 2003 May 17;326(7398):s165-6. No abstract available. PMID: 12750228

COMMENT: Introductory NLP tutorial.

19: Walter J, Bayat A. Neurolinguistic programming: temperament and character types. BMJ. 2003 Apr 19;326(7394):S133. No abstract available. PMID: 12702636

COMMENT: Introductory MBTI (not metaprogrammes as you'd expect) tutorial.

20: Walter J, Bayat A. Neurolinguistic programming: verbal communication. BMJ. 2003 Mar 15;326(7389):S83. No abstract available. PMID: 12637421

COMMENT: Introductory NLP tutorial.

21: Bowers JS. Challenging the widespread assumption that connectionism and distributed representations go hand-in-hand. Cognit Psychol. 2002 Nov;45(3):413-45. Review. PMID: 12480480

COMMENT: Off-topic.

22: Gershkoff-Stowe L, Goldin-Medow S. Is there a natural order for expressing semantic relations? Cognit Psychol. 2002 Nov;45(3):375-412. PMID: 12480479

COMMENT: Off-topic.

23: Acosta JK, Levenson RL Jr. Observations from Ground Zero at the World Trade Center in New York City, Part II: Theoretical and clinical considerations. Int J Emerg Ment Health. 2002 Spring;4(2):119-26. PMID: 12166017

COMMENT: Discussion paper with suggestions.

24: Francelin Romero RA, Kacpryzk J, Gomide F. A biologically inspired neural network for dynamic programming. Int J Neural Syst. 2001 Dec;11(6):561-72. PMID: 11852439

COMMENT: Off-topic

25: Suthers M. Our personal space. Ann R Australas Coll Dent Surg. 2000 Oct;15:280-3. PMID: 11709956

COMMENT: Introductory NLP tutorial.

26: Hotz G, Helm-Estabrooks N, Nelson NW. Development of the pediatric test of brain injury. J Head Trauma Rehabil. 2001 Oct;16(5):426-40. Review. PMID: 11574039

COMMENT: Off-topic

27: Lin EL, Murphy GL. Thematic relations in adults' concepts. J Exp Psychol Gen. 2001 Mar;130(1):3-28. PMID: 11293459

COMMENT: Off-topic

28: Ronnberg J, Soderfeldt B, Risberg J. The cognitive neuroscience of signed language. Acta Psychol (Amst). 2000 Dec;105(2-3):237-54. Review. PMID: 11194414

COMMENT: Off-topic

29: Hugdahl K. Lateralization of cognitive processes in the brain. Acta Psychol (Amst). 2000 Dec;105(2-3):211-35. Review. PMID: 11194413

COMMENT: Off-topic review/tutorial.

30: Andrianopoulos MV, Gallivan GJ, Gallivan KH. PVCM, PVCD, EPL, and irritable larynx syndrome: what are we talking about and how do we treat it? J Voice. 2000 Dec;14(4):607-18. PMID: 11130117

COMMENT: Not a research report. "A multifactorial management program is proposed utilizing principles of motor learning, neurolinguistic programming model, respiratory and phonatory synchronization, relaxation techniques, concurrent monitoring of behavioral adjustments, and formal psychological counseling." (from the abstract)

31: Sumin AN, Khairedinova OP, Sumina LIu, Variushkina EV, Doronin DV, Galimzianov DM, Masin AN, Gol'dberg GA. [Psychotherapy impact on effectiveness of in-hospital physical rehabilitation in patients with acute coronary syndrome] Klin Med (Mosk). 2000;78(6):16-20. Russian. PMID: 10900863

ABSTRACT: Of 103 patients with acute coronary syndrome (mean age 51.6 +/- 0.9 years) 47 patients participated in 5 group psychotherapeutic sessions added to conversional rehabilitation program. Psychotherapy included progressive muscular relaxation, neurolinguistic programming, eriksonian hypnosis, therapeutic metaphora. Psychotherapy decreased the hear rate, number of ventricular extrasystoles, stimulated tonicity of the parasympathetic nervous system. Compared to the controls, the test patients developed higher exercise tolerance and lower reactivity of the central hemodynamics in all the exercise tests.

COMMENTS: Findings confounded by the administration of multiple, simultaneous psychotherapies.

32: Begley S, Check E. Rewiring your gray matter. The brain: you can teach an old brain new tricks. Neuroplasticity promises to give a whole new meaning to 'changing your mind'. Newsweek. 2000 Jan 1;134(26):63-5. No abstract available. PMID: 10848178

COMMENT: Off-topic news.

33: Kaplowitz GJ. Communicating with patients. Gen Dent. 1999 Jul-Aug;47(4):399-403. PMID: 10687469

COMMENT: Review/tutorial.

34: Turner J. Soins. 1999 Jul-Aug;(637):33-6. French. No abstract available. PMID: 10615173

COMMENT: No abstract or MEDLINE classification. Unlikely to be research report.

35: Schaefer J, Schajor S. [Learning with all one's senses. Neurolinguistic programming in the teaching of pediatric nursing] Kinderkrankenschwester. 1999 Jul;18(7):289-91. German. No abstract available. PMID: 10514683

COMMENT: No abstract or MEDLINE classification. Unlikely to be research report.

36: Gorecka D, Borak J, Goljan A, Gorzelak K, Mankowski M, Zgierska A. [Treatment outcome in tobacco dependence after nicotine replacement therapy and group therapy] Pneumonol Alergol Pol. 1999;67(3-4):95-102. Polish. PMID: 10497441

ABSTRACT: The deletorious (sic) health effects of smoking are generally known. In spite of that, great numbers of people still smoke tobacco in the whole world. It is primarily due to the addictive properties of nicotine. Cigarette smoking is also dependent on various social and psychologic factors making quitting very difficult. Among various treatment modalities for tobacco dependence we aimed to assess the efficacy of nicotine replacement therapy (NRT) vs group therapy. 325 subjects smoking at least 15 cigarettes/day for more than 3 years were studied. They were allocated to group therapy (neurolinguistic programming) or NRT (gum or patch) at their will. Non-smoking was validated at each of follow-up visits, at 1 and 2 weeks 1, 3, 6, 12 months by measuring CO in expired air. All groups were matched in age, smoking history and nicotine dependence. The best quit rate was observed as a result of group therapy (41% at 1 year, p. < 0.001) as compared to nicotine patch (2%) and nicotine gum (9%).

COMMENT: No control (no treatment) or placebo group.

37: de Miranda CT, de Paula CS, Palma D, da Silva EM, Martin D, de Nobrega FJ. Impact of the application of neurolinguistic programming to mothers of children enrolled in a day care center of a shantytown. Sao Paulo Med J. 1999 Mar 4;117(2):63-71. PMID: 10488603

ABSTRACT:

CONTEXT: Of the members of a family, the mother is without doubt the most important one, which provides justification for including an evaluation of her mental health as one of the variables to be considered as determining factors in each child's level of development. OBJECTIVE: To assess the impact of the application of Neurolinguistic Programming (NLP) on child development, home environment and maternal mental health. DESIGN: Randomised controlled trial. SETTING: The study included children enrolled in the municipal day care center of a shantytown in the City of Sao Paulo. PARTICIPANTS: 45 pairs of mothers and respective children between 18 and 36 months of age. MAIN MEASUREMENTS: Children's development (Bayley scales); home environment variation (HOME); and maternal mental health (SRQ). Comparison between before and after the intervention was made in terms of children's psychomotor development, home environment and maternal mental health. INTERVENTION: Application of the NLP technique to the experimental group and comparison with a control group. 1--Experimental (EG), consisting of 23 children submitted to intervention by NLP; and 2--Control (CG), with 22 children with no intervention. Length of intervention: 15 sessions of NLP. RESULTS: 37 children remained in the study (EG = 10, CG = 27). Variations in mental development (OR 1.21, IC 95% 0.0 to 23.08) in their home environment (Wilcoxon): p = 0.96 (before) and p = 0.09 (after); in maternal mental health: p = 0.26, 2 df. CONCLUSIONS: There was a trend that indicated positive effects on the home environment from the intervention.

COMMENT: Randomized control trial with an apparently sound design. The design incorporated a control group with no intervention but no placebo group. The study tells us that something is better than nothing but it fails to tell us if NLP was better than placebo.

38: Turnbull J. Intuition in nursing relationships: the result of 'skills' or 'qualities'? Br J Nurs. 1999 Mar 11-24;8(5):302-6. Review. PMID: 10362932

COMMENT: Tutorial.

39: Konefal J, Duncan RC. Social anxiety and training in neurolinguistic programming. Psychol Rep. 1998 Dec;83(3 Pt 1):1115-22. PMID: 9923190

ABSTRACT: The Liebowitz Social Phobia Scale measured the effect of training on social anxiety responses of 28 adults prior to and following a 21-day residential training, and at 6 mo. follow-up. Significant reductions posttraining and at follow-up were evident in the mean self-reported global scale scores on fear and avoidance behavior in social situations. The item scores, aggregated to reflect the situational domains of formal and informal speaking, being observed by others, and assertion, showed significant and continuing reduction from posttraining through follow-up. These findings are consistent with the hypothesis that this training may be associated with reduced responses to social anxiety, but as there was no formal control group, pretest scores from another study were used. Interpretation is limited.

COMMENT: No control group.

40: Starker S, Pankratz L. Soundness of treatment: a survey of psychologists' opinions. Psychol Rep. 1996 Feb;78(1):288-90. PMID: 8839319

ABSTRACT: A random sample of 300 psychologists listed in the National Register of Health Service Providers in Psychology were surveyed about the soundness of forms of mental health treatment and use of these treatments in practice. The 139 psychologists responding expressed greatest confidence in cognitive-behavioral therapy and antipsychotic medications. Approaches most in question as to soundness were primal therapy, neurolinguistic programming, bioenergetics, and aversive therapy. Factor analysis indicated widespread endorsement and use of multiple techniques within two broad camps of research-based "hard-edged" versus clinical wisdom/philosophy-based "soft-edged."

COMMENT: Survey report.

41: Graf U. [Neurolinguistic programming in physician-patient communication. Basic principles of the procedure--examples for application in surgery] Fortschr Med. 1995 Sep 20;113(26):368-71. German. PMID: 7498856

ABSTRACT: Neurolinguistic programming (NLP) is a means of improving physician-patient communication that can be learned by any doctor. The present article first describes some of the fundamentals of NLP and then provides examples taken from the field of surgery-in the first instance dealing with the treatment of painful conditions by means of trance or dissociation and, secondly, on the influencing of expectations and the restructuring (reframing) of doctrines in a patient with malignant disease.

COMMENT: Tutorial and case report.

42: Hossack A, Standidge K. Using an imaginary scrapbook for neurolinguistic programming in the aftermath of a clinical depression: a case history. Gerontologist. 1993 Apr;33(2):265-8. PMID: 8468020

ABSTRACT: We employed neurolinguistic programming (NLP) principles to develop a positive self-identity in an elderly male patient in England recovering from clinical depression. This novel technique encouraged recall of intrinsically rewarding past experiences. Each experience was conceptualized in an image and compiled chronologically in an imaginary book, providing continuity to what were chaotic and fragmented recollections during the immediate postdepressive stage. The patient's anxiety and depression were alleviated and his own functional goals largely realized.

COMMENT: Case report.

43: Konefal J, Duncan RC, Reese MA. Neurolinguistic programming training, trait anxiety, and locus of control. Psychol Rep. 1992 Jun;70(3 Pt 1):819-32. PMID: 1620774

ABSTRACT: Training in the neurolinguistic programming techniques of shifting perceptual position, visual-kinesthetic dissociation, timelines, and change-history, all based on experiential cognitive processing of remembered events, leads to an increased awareness of behavioral contingencies and a more sensitive recognition of environmental cues which could serve to lower trait anxiety and increase the sense of internal control. This study reports on within-person and between-group changes in trait anxiety and locus of control as measured on the Spielberger State-Trait Anxiety Inventory and Wallston, Wallston, and DeVallis' Multiple Health Locus of Control immediately following a 21-day residential training in neurolinguistic programming. Significant with-in-person decreases in trait-anxiety scores and increases in internal locus of control scores were observed as predicted. Chance and powerful other locus of control scores were unchanged. Significant differences were noted on trait anxiety and locus of control scores between European and U.S. participants, although change scores were similar for the two groups. These findings are consistent with the hypothesis that this training may lower trait-anxiety scores and increase internal locus of control scores. A matched control group was not available, and follow-up was unfortunately not possible.

COMMENT: No control group.

44: Jepsen CH. Neurolinguistic programming in dentistry. J Calif Dent Assoc. 1992 Mar;20(3):28-32. No abstract available. PMID: 1383450

COMMENT: No abstract or MEDLINE classification. Unlikely to be research report.

45: Lachler J. [NLP communication model (neurolinguistic programming)--practical application. Opening up inner power sources and helping others with it] Krankenpfl Soins Infirm. 1991 Feb;84(2):74-6. German. No abstract available. PMID: 2005751

COMMENT: No abstract or MEDLINE classification. Unlikely to be research report.

46: Schneeberger S, Rohr E. [NLP communication model (neurolinguistic programming)--an introduction. Greater clarity in communicating and observing] Krankenpfl Soins Infirm. 1991 Feb;84(2):70-3. German. No abstract available. PMID: 2005750

COMMENT: Tutorial.

47: Pesut DJ. The art, science, and techniques of reframing in psychiatric mental health nursing. Issues Ment Health Nurs. 1991 Jan-Mar;12(1):9-18. PMID: 1988384

COMMENT: Tutorial.

48: Christensen JF, Levinson W, Grinder M. Applications of neurolinguistic programming to medicine. J Gen Intern Med. 1990 Nov-Dec;5(6):522-7. No abstract available. PMID: 2266436

COMMENT: Review/tutorial.

49: Duncan RC, Konefal J, Spechler MM. Effect of neurolinguistic programming training on self-actualization as measured by the Personal Orientation Inventory. Psychol Rep. 1990 Jun;66(3 Pt 2):1323-30. PMID: 2385721

ABSTRACT: Neurolinguistic programming training is based on principles that should enable the trainee to be more "present"-oriented, inner-directed, flexible, self-aware, and responsive to others, that is, more self-actualized. This study reports within-person changes on self-actualization measures of the Personal Orientation Inventory following a 24-day residential training in neurolinguistic programming. Significant positive mean changes were found for 18 master practitioners on nine of the 12 scales and for 36 practitioners on 10 of the 12 scales. Findings are consistent with the hypothesis that training increases individual self-actualization scores.

COMMENT: No control group.

50: Field ES. Neurolinguistic programming as an adjunct to other psychotherapeutic/hypnotherapeutic interventions. Am J Clin Hypn. 1990 Jan;32(3):174-82. PMID: 2296919

COMMENT: Case report.

51: Dooley KO, Farmer A. Comparison for aphasic and control subjects of eye movements hypothesized in neurolinguistic programming. Percept Mot Skills. 1988 Aug;67(1):233-4. PMID: 3211676

ABSTRACT: Neurolinguistic programming's hypothesized eye movements were measured independently using videotapes of 10 nonfluent aphasic and 10 control subjects matched for age and sex. Chi-squared analysis indicated that eye-position responses were significantly different for the groups. Although earlier research has not supported the hypothesized eye positions for normal subjects, the present findings support the contention that eye-position responses may differ between neurologically normal and aphasic individuals.

COMMENT: Weak conclusion, doesn't demonstrate the validity of eye accessing cues.

52: Seunke W, Keukens R, von Pernis H. TVZ. 1988 Jan 7;42(1):21-5. Dutch. No abstract available. Erratum in: Tijdschr Ziekenverpl 1988 Feb 4;42(3):84. PMID: 3127930

COMMENT: No abstract or MEDLINE classification. Unlikely to be research report.

53: Wertheim EH, Habib C, Cumming G. Test of the neurolinguistic programming hypothesis that eye-movements relate to processing imagery. Percept Mot Skills. 1986 Apr;62(2):523-9. PMID: 3503261

ABSTRACT: Bandler and Grinder's hypothesis that eye-movements reflect sensory processing was examined. 28 volunteers first memorized and then recalled visual, auditory, and kinesthetic stimuli. Changes in eye-positions during recall were videotaped and categorized by two raters into positions hypothesized by Bandler and Grinder's model to represent visual, auditory, and kinesthetic recall. Planned contrast analyses suggested that visual stimulus items, when recalled, elicited significantly more upward eye-positions and stares than auditory and kinesthetic items. Auditory and kinesthetic items, however, did not elicit more changes in eye-position hypothesized by the model to represent auditory and kinesthetic recall, respectively.

COMMENT: Suggests that eye accssing cues model is invalid.

54: Poffel SA, Cross HJ. Neurolinguistic programming: a test of the eye-movement hypothesis. Percept Mot Skills. 1985 Dec;61(3 Pt 2):1262. No abstract available. PMID: 4094868

COMMENT: No abstract (can anyone retrieve it). (I found a reference to it which said they did not support eye-movement hypotheses GregA 08:11, 16 November 2005 (UTC))

55: Farmer A, Rooney R, Cunningham JR. Hypothesized eye movements of neurolinguistic programming: a statistical artifact. Percept Mot Skills. 1985 Dec;61(3 Pt 1):717-8. PMID: 4088761

ABSTRACT: Neurolinguistic programming's hypothesized eye-movements were measured independently from videotapes of 30 subjects, aged 15 to 76 yr., who were asked to recall visual pictures, recorded audio sounds, and textural objects. chi 2 indicated that subjects' responses were significantly different from those predicted. When chi 2 comparisons were weighted by number of eye positions assigned to each modality (3 visual, 3 auditory, 1 kinesthetic), subjects' responses did not differ significantly from the expected pattern. These data indicate that the eye-movement hypothesis may represent randomly occurring rather than sensory-modality-related positions.

COMMENT: Suggests that eye accssing cues model is invalid.

56: Coe WC, Scharcoff JA. An empirical evaluation of the neurolinguistic programming model. Int J Clin Exp Hypn. 1985 Oct;33(4):310-8. No abstract available. PMID: 4030158

COMMENT: No abstract (can anyone retrieve it). The neurolinguistic programming hypothesis that most people have a preferred way of dealing with the world -- a primary representational system -- was tested. 50 Ss were evaluated for sensory modality preference in 3 ways: (a) they chose among written descriptions using either visual, auditory, or kinesthetic wording (preference); (b) their eye movements were recorded during an interview; and (c) their verbal responses were scored for sensory predicates. The results did not support neurolinguistic programming theory in that preference of 1 modality on 1 measure did not relate to the same modality on the other measures as would be expected if primary representational systems were characteristic of the sample. Other studies have shown mixed results. The conclusion seems warranted that a good deal more empirical support is needed before the positive therapeutic claims of neurolinguistic programming proponents can be taken seriously. (GregA 08:11, 16 November 2005 (UTC))

57: Knowles RD, Brockopp DY. Kango Gijutsu. 1984 Oct;30(13):1829-34. Japanese. No abstract available. PMID: 6567712

COMMENT: No abstract or MEDLINE classification. Unlikely to be research report.

58: Yapko MD. Implications of the Ericksonian and Neurolinguistic programming approaches for responsibility of therapeutic outcomes. Am J Clin Hypn. 1984 Oct;27(2):137-43. No abstract available. PMID: 6517044

COMMENT: No abstract or MEDLINE classification. Unlikely to be research report.

59: Brockopp DY. Taehan Kanho. 1983 Dec 30;22(5):48-9. Korean. No abstract available. PMID: 6560114

COMMENT: No abstract or MEDLINE classification. Unlikely to be research report.

60: Knowles RD. Taehan Kanho. 1983 Dec 30;22(5):45-7. Korean. No abstract available. PMID: 6560113

COMMENT: No abstract or MEDLINE classification. Unlikely to be research report.

61: Dowd ET, Hingst AG. Matching therapists' predicates: an in vivo test of effectiveness. Percept Mot Skills. 1983 Aug;57(1):207-10. PMID: 6622159

ABSTRACT: The theory of neurolinguistic programming predicts that a therapist's matching of a client's primary representational system, as expressed in the client's predicates, should result in increased therapist's rapport and social influence. This hypothesis was tested in an actual interview situation. Six relatively inexperienced therapists, two each in predicate matching, predicate mismatching, and predicate no-matching conditions, conducted a 30-min. interview with nine undergraduate student volunteers each, for a total of 54 subjects. After the appropriate interview condition was completed, subjects rated ther therapists on the Counselor Rating Form and the Counseling Evaluation Inventory. No significant differences among the three conditions on any of the measures were found. Results are compared with those of previous research on assessment and primary representational matching in analogue situations.

COMMENT: Suggests that predicate matching does not work.

62: Thomason TC, Arbuckle T, Cady D. Test of the eye-movement hypothesis of neurolinguistic programming. Percept Mot Skills. 1980 Aug;51(1):230. No abstract available. PMID: 7432961

COMMENT: No abstract (can anyone retrieve it).

On the basis of this review alone it would be sufficient to conclude that there is no evidence that NLP works. The few studies that are reported -- that find that NLP is efficacious -- have one or more methodological flaws that either invalidate the conclusions or severely constrain the conclusions that can be drawn. flavius 06:35, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Flavius. I was doing the same search, a good idea and you beat me to it.

I'm not sure how you make that conclusion. You've been saying that an article being in a journal indexed by medline indicates a certain quality and openness to peer review. Then for every research piece supporting NLP you find a fault. Lets be clear on what you just summarised above.

1. There are 7 studies not supporting NLP (#14, 53, 54, 55, 56, 61, (&62?)). As with Druckman & Swets (88) and Heap (89) review of NLP, all these studies are rep systems related - 5 eye accessing cues, 1 of verbal predicates. Only one is after 1986 (it's in 2003).
2. There are 7 studies supporting NLP (#31, 36, 37, 39, 43, 49, 51). All are after 1987. They use a variety of NLP techniques (and often don't say specifically). (Only 1 was eye related and it simply found differences in eye movements between Aphasic and control groups)
3. There are > 22 articles recommending or teaching NLP (this does not include straight reviews)

I don't know how you can say that medline is a good measurement of quality, and on the other that each article in support of NLP is not good enough.

Perhaps the answer to all our disagreements is in reporting more clearly the differences between PRS studies and all other NLP studies. This would concur with Druckman, Heap, Einspruch, etc, and be consistent with all the articles we've found showing use of NLP within police, FBI, etc. We could also accurately reflect Druckman, Heap, Einspruch when they said that there was more research to be done... which indeed there has been, successfully. Sure this is only medline stuff at this point.

What it doesn't reflect is cult books, skeptics dictionary, and pseudoscience books... which would need to be addressed but may be explained by the above. GregA 08:47, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

GregA. So are you suggesting that the massive commercial edifice of NLP sits securely on seven studies -- that although published in reputable journals -- have obvious flaws, that I, a non-expert can point out. I'm beginning to think that you're not really serious about this matter. I've answered all of your questions (and some) yet you steadfastly refuse to yield even though you have no basis for maintaining your position. I'll repeat my line of argument. If a journal is not indexed by Medline its most likely not even worth citing. If it is indexed by Medline it is worth citing and critiquing. I have offered a short critique of those NLP-related papers that are indexed by Medline. This is entirely consistent with my stated position. Unfortunately -- for you, FT2, Comaze, the crackpot conspiracy theorist and NLP -- all of the NLP related studies that report a result in favor of NLP have one or more major flaws. We really needn't proceed any further, this alone confirms the report in the critical texts cited in the article that NLP is without scientific foundation. However, we can proceed further and make an even stronger case against NLP. There are studies published in reputable journals that don't support the core NLP theory of representational systems. We can go further yet. We know from the need to postulate meta-programs that another pillar of NLP theory -- cognitive strategies -- is invalid, lacking predictive or explanatory power. We can go even further. Neurology and linguistics -- two professional fields that are not tied to psychology and psychiatry and hence cannot be slandered with the usual Church of Scientology style propaganda -- reject NLP theory completely. Whenever I encounter a modern textbook, dictionary or encyclopedia on linguistics, psycohlinguistics, philosophy of mind, cognitive science, or neurology I always look up 'Neurolinguistic Programming' and I am yet to find an entry. NLP theory -- which makes many claims about psycholingustics and neurology -- has absolutely no currency in modern neurology or linguistics. Before you ask, I'm not going to give you a list of neurology and linguistics that do not mention NLP. Further, NLP has all of the characteristics of a pseudoscience (most notably it proposes unfalsifiable hypothesis, its theories have no predictive power and its research program is degenerating). Also, the burden of proof rests on the shoulders of NLP proponents not its critics. flavius 10:30, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi again Flavius. That steadfast refusal you notice is mostly just a kind of trolling tactic. I have had to put up with it for months. No matter how much you explain, they keep on claiming you have not answered the question. They sometimes use it as an excuse to rip the facts they don't like from the article. Comaze did that yesterday. You probably noticed already. If they do that, just revert as you wish. Regards HeadleyDown 13:24, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Flavius. Actually it is quite useful within cults (as a rich source of convenient pseudoscientific misdirection for creating insecurities in normal people). Of course it is also good for selling meaningless subconcious processing (pseudoscientific) audio tapes. Its also great for speading popular and potentially damaging myths about the mind (quite evident on this discussion page). Regards HeadleyDown 11:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course I'm not suggesting that Flavius. You named the terms of discussion and I entered. Lets keep the emotion out of it eh??! I haven't mentioned Scientology I see no relevance to NLP. I think linguistics and neurology should reject NLP theory when it's wrong... NLP's focus is elsewhere, by and large (modeling patterns for instance). As far as pseudoscience goes, the NLP processes are certainly falsifiable, the definition of a pattern is predictability, but I agree that if NLP had a "research program" it would probably be degenerating (certainly psychological research on NLP seems to be). Anyway, back to medline - you wanted to use medline as a baseline ... then you discount each study supporting NLP, and I can discount each study not supporting NLP, and we get nowhere. We're not here to do our own research and are not allowed as you should know... we can just represent what's there (plus cite responses to that research or whatever else is necessary to present the research fairly). If the only research was medline, we could say that all non rep-system research supports NLP though criticisms have been made that existing studies require blind trials to confirm the effect (cite the criticism....). Really Flavius if you want to make some rules you can't change them when they don't suit you (not that I agree to your original or modified rules!). Thank you for clarifying the position of NLP from medline's perspective though I think it's great for the article. GregA 12:18, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, I have two observations right now (in a bit of a rush)

1. How many of the cited articles in the article, cited by headley et al (Eisner, "Morgan", Carroll, Heap, etc) are on Medline. I see a double standard being applied.
2. You have stated that NLP (theory?) has "absolutely no currency" in linguistics, as a specific example you highlighted. But I don't know if you are aware, but Lakoff, a leading professor of linguistics, has publicly and in his books, credited NLP with significant efficacy as used in USA political campaigning. He cites three examples - one of verbal anchoring, one of non-verbal, and one of lingistic post-hypnotic use. SO I don't think your view is shared by all concerned. FT2 18:57, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

FT2 17:52, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I can't find any mention of NLP in at least two of Lakoff's books ("Philosophy in the Flesh" and "Metaphors We Live By"). There is no mention of NLP on Lakoff's homepage (http://www.georgelakoff.com/), the website of his Rockridge Institute (http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/) or any of his articles or archived presentations (online). Lakoff's material regarding US politics revolves around the notion of the conceptual frame of a word (i.e. the implicit and explicit conecptual topology of word usage), metaphor and what appear to be Jungian archetypes (eg. the disciplining father and nuturing mother). I can't find any NLP theory in Lakoff's work. The notion of frames is from psycholinguistics not NLP. Metaphor and its role in persuasive discourse has been a subject of study since the Rhetorcians of ancient Greece. The "strict father" and "nurturant parent" ideas are very archetypal. You are eager to make George Lakoff a member of the NLP granfalloon (without his knowledge or consent) to lend the NLP granfalloon some prestige and authority but you do so without any justification. flavius 01:49, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Flavius and FT2. The website that FT2 is referring to is actually not written by Lakoff. It is written by an NLP promoter who does what NLP promoters do all the time; Makes spurious associations between NLP and well known experts for the sake of promotion. It appears on the NLP map, but not in reality. HeadleyDown 02:25, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Back to science

It seems that proNLPers here are absolutely determined to confuse and cloud issues surrounding NLP's lack of scientific support and pseudoscientific principles/theory. Scientists already state that the few studies that have found supporting evidence for NLP can be better explained by factors other than NLP. Those recent few supporting studies, for example, are fatally flawed (Eisner 2000) and are not rigorously performed (Lilienfeld 2003). They tend to involve no control groups, or are testing subjects who have already a huge vested interest in claiming success. Studies will continue, and most of them will show negative results (some of those will never be published). The fact is, nobody will conduct properly arranged sets of clinical trials because it is too expensive, and the pre-clinical experiments have failed. The erroneous principles (pseudoscientific pop psychology) also needs more of a mention in the article. As does the flawed linguistic background. There is a strong educational aspect to wikipedia, and it is already stated in the policy statements that science is there to help explain and clarify pseudoscientific thinking. JPLogan 02:24, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

QUoting flavius:

The brutal fact is there isn't a body of results drawn from single-blind studies with matched controls that find that an NLP intervention is more effective than placebo that has been published in reputable journals, favourably reviewed by experts and reproduced by others. flavius 01:55, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Flavius. The brutal fact is that there isn't a body of results drawn from single-blind studies with matched controls. Period. (I note your redundancy there... "single blind studies" have "controls" in their design). This is an obvious elephant. There's nothing to show an NLP intervention more effective than placebo. Personally I find the difference between "there are lots of studies which provide no support" and "there is no body of results" significant. Am I understanding you correctly? GregA 05:47, 16 November 2005 (UTC) (ps... that's buying into your argument of course... I know at least one outcome based study with controls. Incidentally, how do you do a 'blind study' with a 'control', I assume you have to give the control group some form of therapy otherwise they'd know they were not getting treated (ie the placebo group). GregA 05:50, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

A single blind will always have a placebo group but not necessarily a no-treatment group also. A control group can simply have treatment withheld (as a basis of comparison). I'm suggesting that a sound design for testing an NLP intervention should have a control group (no intervention) and a placebo group (null treatment). A single blind by definition does require a placebo group but it doesn't require a no-treatment group. The no-treatment control group gets nothing they exist only to provide a baseline for comparison. Without the no-treatment control group we wouldn't know -- for example -- if the anxiety went away by itself, with the passage of time. flavius 06:42, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Just reading the later literature solves this problem. "In the case of certain highly touted techiques such as neurolinguistic programming (Druckman and Swets 1988), subliminal self-help tapes (Moore 1992; Pratkanis 1992), and facilitated communication for autism (Mulick, Jacobson, and Kobe 1993), controlled studies overwhelmingly indicate that early reports of their effectiveness were illusory". (Lilienfeld et al 2003). Also, I noticed that later more sophisticated studies into NLP have shown that they do not work (ie in the Perception and Motor Skills publication). AliceDeGrey 07:41, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Fuelwagon's Edit

I noticed that you said that this was POV. There does seem to be "significant" criticism and saying that is not the same as saying "everyone thingk it is wrong" or "NLP is garbage" or anything else construed as POV. Also, it was reworded far too hastily(sloppy syntax):

Criticism can be said as:

1A "There has been some/little/significant/much criticism of aspect Y of subject X"

1B "Many X feel that Y is..." or anything similar...

2A "X said that Z is Y"

2B "according to X, Z is Y" or anything similar...

The problem with choice 2A is that using the name as the in-line MLA resource note looks somewhat strange and is very awkward when heavily used.Voice of All 23:47, 15 November 2005 (UTC)