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Linguistics B‑class Top‑importance

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This page has archives. Sections older than 60 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Some Subdisciplines Subsection

The "Some subdisciplines subsection" and the "Fundamental Concerns and Divisions" sections seem to overlap in content. Personally I like the "Fundamental Concerns" version better, but am unwilling to cut the other section without some discussion. AndrewCarnie (talk) 02:00, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Could "Linguistic Analysis" be removed here? It is not an area of the field that anyone does regularly nor that anyone makes a regular living doing. It is too small to be considered a sub-discipline. Perhaps it is merely a practical extension of the study of linguistics. On another note, should the diachronic linguistics section be relabelled "historical linguistics" and revised? While there is some debate right now on the role of diachrony in linguistic generalizations, it is quite well and alive (e.g. Blevins 2004) in many academic departments, despite what is alluded to in the section.-Lingboy (talk) 00:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Popular Works and Texts section

There was brief discussion that went to the archives about pruning this. Everyone seemed to be in favour. It'll be quicker to list the texts that should definitely be kept than the ones that can be removed. Any suggestions? garik (talk) 15:11, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

We don't need both the first and second editions of things like the International Encyclopedia of Linguistics. The encyclopedias should be kept and probably the Blackwell handbooks. Bloomfield and Sapir are still important works, as are the two Chomsky volumes. The most popular intro textbooks should be there (adding Fromkin, Rodman, and Hyams, which is mysteriously missing from the list). Anilla's historical linguistics is still pretty standard in "lists" along with both Ladefoged's and Catford's intro phonetics books. Selecting syntax books will be trickier because it's like picking the two prettiest blooms on an apricot tree. (Taivo (talk) 16:29, 23 March 2009 (UTC))

It would be worth being clear what the section is for. I assume it's intended that people reading the article use the books as further reading, in which case Skinner's Verbal Behavior should go, if only for being outdated. It occurs to me that choosing which of the many books called "Introduction to Linguistics" (or something similar) to include is going to be tricky — can we come up with some reasonable criteria for what we include and what we don't? And how long should this section be? It definitely looks too long to me, but maybe that's paper-encyclopedia thinking. garik (talk) 14:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not obvious to me that the section is needed at all. It is not practical to list all works of possible interest and value, but there is no clear cut-off between works that should and should not be included. The whole See also section seems unduly long. I note that main pages for other social science disciplines typically either do not list Branches and fields or Popular works and texts, or their lists are no longer than a dozen or so items. This page lists around sixty of each! Cnilep (talk) 19:59, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Business

Hi, some of you might remember a user called Goblin a year or two ago, who was an admin and was active on this linguistics page. That was me. I've lost the details of that account and am back now. What is happening to this page??? What nonsense is this? Please resolve this argument immediately, or every single one of you will be eventually banned. Jadoogiri and AndrewCarnie included. That's the only way to end this havoc, isn't it? No discretion in banning people. The entire community will die and a more serious one will come, one which will contribute to serious mainstream linguistics that looks at the subject as a science and does not dig their fingers in all this bullshitting. Period.

As you also might be aware, I've been teaching linguistics since the last 35 years in the East, which includes Beijing, Hong Kong and Puttucksvilla, and I think I should be able to take a call on this and I think my judgment and decision should be heard and respected. Now I think someone needs to mean "business" on this page. And I mean BUSINESS. Everyone's being going berserk fighting with each other? I've been reading the archives all day! What utter informal rubbish has been discussed here over the last few months?! Stop this right now.

Please take this as a warning, and if that's not enough, then an ultimatum.

Stinguist (talk) 10:21, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Uh, I agree the discussion has been pretty pointless, but since you can't do anything about it, what's with the threats? You've been sucked in and are now just another spouter of drivel. That's how we breed. kwami (talk) 10:58, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by "havoc"? This article is quiet as a tomb compared to Macedonia. (Taivo (talk) 13:22, 25 April 2009 (UTC))

Also, User:Goblin is not an admin or former admin, has never edited this article or this talk page, but has edited Misplaced Pages just a few weeks ago, so it's unlikely he has "lost the details of that account". —Angr 21:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it tends to be cranks who issue "ultimatums". I could see it if they were trying to reveal that language derives from dolphins, Atlantis, or extra-terrestrials, but this seems a really odd POV for a bunch of crackpots to latch on to. (Or one crackpot, more likely, since they all appear to have about the same intellect.) kwami (talk) 23:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

What will you people do if a group of 100 or 200 people are brought in, and they all rotate to take turns in reverting back the article to state the idea that linguistics is also an art? How many people will you be able to handle? Knightingail (talk) 06:57, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

this is just pathetic. Supriyya is either having a good laugh, or she must truly believe everyone else is a complete moron. You couldn't fool five year olds with this sock circus. At this point, just permaban her and all her accounts. Supriyya, Misplaced Pages can easily deal with 200, or even 500 of your socks, you wouldn't be the first to try. So please don't bother. --dab (𒁳) 07:00, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I am not understanding this right. what does this guy, above, mean? socktalk and sockcircus? and what have we?! incoherent! i would fail all my students instantly if they behaved like this. Knightingail (talk) 08:10, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

and dab, refer to Supriyya under her message, not under mine! I have a name too. It is Knightingail. Knightingail. KNIGHTINGAIL, KNIGHTINGAIL, KNIGHTINGAIL. This is most offensive talkpage behaviour: to refer to one person as another. please enforce some talkpage discipline here, ho hum! Knightingail (talk) 08:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I know. And "stinguist" of course, another linguist ex machina with a "funny" username. Andd your declaration that you are willing to come up with another 100-200 clones. I am ready to end this with the ban-hammer: what does everyone think: do you want to go through checkuser with this first? --dab (𒁳) 08:50, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

If you can get a checkuser approved, go for it. A separate issue is whether we are ready to ban Supriyya for exhausting the community's patience. —Angr 08:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Supriyya. It's been a while since I last looked at checkuser, and an impressive bureaucracy seems to have grown around it (as usual with any Misplaced Pages procedure). --dab (𒁳) 09:06, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I have been told quack and I tend to agree. I've blocked the socks, and I am willing to issue a permanent block to Knightingail as well at the first time that this charade is going to continue. After that, it will just be a game of whack the sock. It' is high time to take the burden of dealing with this nonsense off this page so that interested editors can continue to work on the article in peace. --dab (𒁳) 11:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Names for US Americans

I asked for a third opinion at Misplaced Pages:Third_opinion#Active_disagreements on the best name for Names for U.S. citizens and whether the attested phrase "US American" should be allowed in the article. Maybe some of you have opinions on this? kwami (talk) 04:18, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard "US American" before. Like the article says, "American" seems to be the most common (regardless of how ridiculous a term it is). I've heard "United Statesian", but pretty much as a joke. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 04:23, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

(clarification, after reading some of the discussion at Talk:Names for U.S. citizens) I don't have a problem with including the term in the article; I just don't know if it's a reasonable title to use for the article. "U.S. citizens" seems to be the most general, neutral term (without aligning itself with any of the names), whereas "US Americans" is one of the names themselves. To make an analogy to another article that recently went through a titillating AfD, it would be like renaming Criticisms of Bill O'Reilly to Bill O'Reilly is a jerk—using one of the specific examples as the full article title. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 04:30, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that "Names of US Americans" should be the title, just that "Names of Americans" is inappropriate. kwami (talk) 07:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand why this is being discussed here. What has this got to do with the Linguistics article? —Angr 09:35, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I didn't intend for the discussion to be here. I just thought perhaps some of the people here might have an opinion to share on that article's talk page. kwami (talk) 10:17, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

My fault. I'll take my comments over there. Thanks, rʨanaɢ /_contribs 11:11, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Restoring Foucault and Derrida to list of texts

Having reviewed the discussions presented on the talk page and its archives, I have restored the Jacques Derrida and Michel Foucault texts to the list in the article. The discussions were quite shocking in their non-neutral POV and failure to address the criteria established by the Misplaced Pages project as a whole to address such disagreements. Editors' personal or professional opinions are not the way in which such disputes ought to be resolved. This is not an arena for any of you to push your own agendas about what you think linguistics is or isn't, should or should not be. Instead, we refer to reliable sources and see what they say and report those results in the article. Even the most brief search on Google books for the words "Foucault" and "linguistics" generates plenty of results, demonstrating that post-structuralist analyses are relevant and appropriate to this article. Whether Foucault may be considered a "linguist" or not is entirely besides the point. I notice that philosophers whom we would not call linguists make several appearances in the article; that Foucault and Derrida wrote during a time when others were also exploring the field with a scientific methodology makes no difference whatsoever to the appropriateness of their appearance in this article. The use of sources to resolve disputes is a fundamental principle of the Misplaced Pages project, without which its popular image as an unreliable source of information is entirely justified. Please try to respect that when encountering something with which you disagree. DionysosProteus (talk) 13:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I see that this addition has been reverted twice now without addressing the concerns detailed here. Whether you feel that they have been addressed in the past or not is irrelevant. If there is a concern now--and there is--then it needs to be addressed. I'm more than happy for you to explain why the vast amount of published material on this subject is irrelevant, but you need to make that case. That a few of you share an opinion does not mean that this determines the content of the article; that's what the principle of referring to sources is there for. The truthiness of your consensus is not a substitute for an argument based on the evidence of sources. DionysosProteus (talk) 13:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

On a slightly different note: I think most people here would agree that there are numerous texts worth removing from the list besides Foucault and Derrida. Before this discussion gets going, let's ask if we really need the Popular Works and Texts section. Cnilep voted above for removing it altogether. There's something to be said for that. I'd be in favour of leaving a small number of introductory texts on linguistics and its major branches, though choosing which introductory works to put in may prove to not be worth the effort. garik (talk) 13:40, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there are definitely other texts in the list that need to be removed, not just Foucault and Derrida. —Angr 13:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The list is greatly improved by Angr's trimming. I think, though, there are still quite a few candidates for removal - things that aren't suitable for those who've never read a linguistics book before and who are coming to Wp to find pout what linguistics is. And I'm not sure we need books on individual branches - the branch pages are probably a better place to look for those. We could usefully introduce some sub-headings, too - clumping the encyclopedias together, for example, and separating out the books genuinely aimed at a popular audience from the textbooks. --Pfold (talk) 14:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Removed again. Derrida and Foucault are not linguists and their work is of no relevance to this article. Honestly, listing them makes as much as sense as listing Jane Goodall or Stephen Hawking. —Angr 13:44, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Failing to address the specific concerns detailed here is not an appropriate response. Either explain why the sources should be ignored or leave them there. DionysosProteus (talk) 13:47, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

No, you have to explain why you insist on restoring utterly irrelevant information to this article. Neither of the books you want listed is about linguistics. What "reliable sources" assert that they are? —Angr 13:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Are you having difficulty reading the post made above? It states, quite clearly and unambiguously, that there is clear evidence from even the most cursory search on Google books that Foucault and Derrida's work--and Deleuze, etc. while we're at it--is relevant to the field of linguistics. Google book search "Foucault" and "linguistics" and you will be presented with a large quantity of evidence. Kindly follow Misplaced Pages's procedures and explain why all that material is irrelevant if you do not wish it to appear in the article. DionysosProteus (talk) 14:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

You've identified the problem yourself - a cursory search on Google Books! Google Books searches can turn up anything - there's no way a cursory search there can separate the wheat from the chaff, the reliable sources from the fringey cruft. And even among the reliable sources, simply searching for "Foucault" and "linguistics" will do nothing but turn up books where the two words are mentioned on the same page - hardly convincing evidence that Foucault's contributions to linguistics are so earth-shattering he needs to be mentioned in the See also section of this article. —Angr 14:41, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually Derrida (not necessarily Foucault) was influential in Linguistics based literary criticism (as it evolved into Deconstruction). There should be some mention in the application of Linguistics for literary criticism, as there is a large connection. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Dionysos & Ottava Rima, If they were influential in linguistic-based literary criticism then they should be mentioned at Literary Criticism and not here. This article is about fundamental Linguistics, not all its hyphenated step-children. (Taivo (talk) 14:29, 28 April 2009 (UTC))

Um, actually, the article necessitates the discussion of Linguistics when it comes to literary criticism, as that is the primary field of application and it even mentions it in the lead! Ottava Rima (talk) 14:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

some of the titles are obviously irrelevant. Others, like the Terrence Deacon one, may be worth a closer look. The Symbolic Species may be relevant for discussing how linguistics has begun to interface with neighbouring disciplines such as anthropology and neurology. I am not sure about Derrida or Foucault. Googling "Foucault and linguistics" cannot be a basis for listing random works by that author in the bibliography. What DionysosProteus and Ottava Rima appear to be talking about is the Linguistic turn. Referencing that does not necessitate transcluding a postmodernist reading list, it can be as simple as "linguistics also influenced Western philosophy during the 20th century, see linguistic turn." Being influenced by a field and being relevant to a field are two seperate issues. --dab (𒁳) 14:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

As User:DionysosProteus has reverted to his preferred version no fewer than 5 times in less than an hour, I have reported him at WP:AN3. —Angr 14:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely shameful behaviour from most of you. Misplaced Pages has clear guidelines about the removal of relevant and appropriate content. You are required to demonstrate here first that the material does not belong in the article before removing it, if it is sourced. The narrow POV-pushing in evidence is appalling. While the linguistic turn in continental philosophy is certainly something with which the authors mentioned are involved, they are ALSO involved in the field of linguistics. The evidence is out there and clear for all to see in the way I have described. That you share a narrow conception of what constitutes the field does not, in any way, justify the POV-pushing in which you are clearly engaged. Unjustified removal of content, especially to promote a narrow POV consititutes vandalism. Kindly desist. DionysosProteus (talk) 14:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

QUACK, the sock is at it againAndrewCarnie (talk) 14:48, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

If that is an attempt to suggest that my account is a sock-puppet, I'd like to explain the basis for such an accusation. DionysosProteus (talk) 14:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

"Most of you". That sounds like a clear majority of editors interested in this topic. Close to "consensus". (Taivo (talk) 14:49, 28 April 2009 (UTC))

Quite. Hence my description of truthiness. That you share a narrow and biased assessment of this field does not make your collective opinions true. Difficult though it may be for you to accept, you are required to engage with the evidence presented. That is how we resolve disputes, not by a hand-count. DionysosProteus (talk) 14:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I retract the accusation of sock, DP is clearly too articulate to be a sock of the usual suspect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AndrewCarnie (talk • contribs) 15:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

No, DP isn't a sock of Supriyya. He's been around a long time, longer than she has, and seems to be a valuable editor in areas he knows something about (the theater, acting, dancing, etc.). —Angr 15:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The fact that the practitioners in a field share a view of what falls outside it is hardly surprising. Linguistics is what linguists (with some help from the institutions that employ them) define it to be. There is no platonic definition of linguistics which we are failing to see and which you will be able to enlighten us on. --Pfold (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

sheesh. take a minute to look at the account's history before throwing around sock allegations. As for "you are required to engage with the evidence presented" -- well, then present evidence. As in, quote secondary sources in support of your claims. Also known as "writing encyclopedia articles". Just adding titles to a list of literature isn't "presenting evidence". No, you cannot dump assertions here and leave their verification as an exercise for the reader even if your assertions are true. When challenged, the burden lies with you to present evidence. Telling people to google isn't "presenting evidence". --dab (𒁳) 15:21, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

DP has been blocked for 24 hours for edit warring here, so he won't be presenting any evidence or anything else here until tomorrow at the earliest. —Angr 15:35, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Derrida

As it seems to be lost in the above thread - Derrida used Linguistics in the basis of the Deconstruction literary criticism movement. This was the evolution of linguistic analysis. Since Literary criticism is the primary field of Linguistics application and is mention in the lead, it needs to be discussed in the body of the work, which it is not adequately done. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Is literary criticism really the primary field to which linguistics is applied? What about language teaching and speech technology? Besides, it's not at all clear to me that the fact linguistics is applied to another field justifies including people who do so in the list of popular works and texts for this article. garik (talk) 15:06, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Confusion of the inverse. "linguistics is essential to literary criticism" does not establish that literary criticism is essential, or even relevant, to linguistics. The fact that you need a bottle opener to enjoy your Heineken does not imply that Heineken should be linked prominently, or at all, from the bottle opener article. --dab (𒁳) 15:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Or even vice versa. —Angr 15:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Not much I can add here that wasn't already said by Garik and Dbachmann.... but yes, while linguistics and literary criticism are relevant to one another (see, for example, books like Linguistics and Literature) and a lot of early linguistics work was inspired by literary theory (for example, early investigations of meter and prosody), literary theory is not really the main application of linguistics now, at least not in the US. Linguistics departments are still sometimes thrown in with "humanities" departments, most of what goes on now is science, and most people who use it are in fields like speech pathology, education, psychology, neuroscience, etc. I don't know enough about Derrida to know what his contributions to linguistics were back then, but I know he's not really talked about anymore, so if he is mentioned at all in the article it should be as part of the history, not as part of the "popular works". rʨanaɢ /_contribs 16:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Just look up the history of philology and see where Linguistics came from. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

So the quantum mechanics article should list biology books because both fields are derived from what was once called natural philosophy? --Pfold (talk) 17:47, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Or, you could be more reasonable and say that quantum mechanics should discuss physics. Regardless, Linguistics is the evolution of philology, has its origins in Literary theory and study, and is primarily used as such. Applied linguistics is the most published on aspect of linguistics as a whole. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:48, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Just as the article on chemistry need not list a medieval work on alchemy in its bibliography, so, too, an article on linguistics need not list works relevant to its roots in the distant past. Put these materials in an article on the history of linguistics, not in a description of the modern field. (Taivo (talk) 20:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC))

Seeing as how philology is still a major part of Linguistics and linguistic analysis, and that many linguistics journals have philology in your title, your analogy is patently absurd. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

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