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An image

Sorry to annoy you once more, but could you check out this image? Part of the FUR says "It is of much lower resolution than the original" which is confusing considering the size. Also, the source seems to be a book published in Bulgaria in 1941, which wouldn't be a reliable source, would it? Thanks in advance, BalkanFever

Macedonians (Greeks)

I nominated the article for deletion: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Macedonians (Greeks). Cheers!--

Thanks

Thanks for the post in my talk page. I agree, besides, letting them talk is more damaging to their cause than me presenting evidence (see for example the last "evidence" provided by the new poster). In the talk page I tried to focus on the evidence they provided, I pointed out that a quote from the policy that the guy presented as evidence and based his argumentation on it was not actually a quote, it was a liberal interpretation of the policy presented as a quote. man with one red shoe 18:46, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

There now appears to be off-wiki canvassing on this issue - see WP:AN/I#Greek nationalist canvassing off-wiki. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I would like to post this, not sure if it should be under evidence or supporting ChrisO's COI point or if I should post it at all:

It has been claimed that over 90% of the Greeks don't accept the name of Macedonia. This claim was made by somebody who supports the Greek cause (not by me or some other "anti-Greek" as I was labeled). Nobody seems to deny the prevalence of that opinion in the Greek population, however they want us to believe that they don't have a COI when it comes to deciding the content and then they vote en masse against the name of "Macedonia" or even against the use of "Republic of Macedonia" form on Greece page and talk:Greece shows. To me that's the key problem here, it's not necessary the content problem that bothers me (although there are clear policies and guidelines that ChrisO has detailed), it's the claim that there's no COI when it comes to content decision and the potential bad implications for Misplaced Pages when nationals team to preserve their POV.

So... is this something that I need to mention, or it's not a good idea since it might upset the commission members (although it's the plain truth)? Never been in such a case and don't know how it works and what makes ArbCom tick... I will wait for your feedback. man with one red shoe 19:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

If I might make a suggestion, it would be very useful to gather diffs to identify explicitly political arguments by our Greek editors. Plenty of such arguments have been made, it's just a matter of digging them up from the various talk pages. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:03, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

About the off wiki

You mind want to see my ARBCOM evidence page for a second link from the same blog you mentioned that is already in English. It would be good to ARBCOM if someone could provide ARBCOM with a translation for the .mk television link in my evidence page, if anyone has any. Lobbying from a TV station is very powerful too. Shadowmorph (talk) 11:28, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't have time for a full translation (ask PMK1 or MatriX if you badly want one) but it's not lobbying or trying to convince any Macedonians to go and do something, it's simply reporting the state of affairs - if you type in "Macedonia" you end up at an article about the country. It also mentions how the Greek internet users, who it describes as having lost, "comment that the Skopjans succeeded through debate in changing the appellation of the country from FYROM to Republic of Macedonia, and even to obtain, on the official page in which Greece is represented, for the northern neighbour to be mentioned as the Republic of Macedonia" (the quoted is a translation of the last sentence). BalkanFever 12:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like a propaganda.--Caspian blue 12:55, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

What, the comments of the Greek internet users or the Macedonian description of the comments of the Greek internet users? BalkanFever 13:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Would you direct me to access free Macedonian-English translation tool or engine? Well, I'm bemused at the current situation that tries to make only one side evil while the news channel broadcasted the incident in Wiki. Which one is more powerful, a blog or a news media?--Caspian blue 13:33, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there is any - I once tried to participate in something over at mk-wiki and only found an online dictionary, not a translator. As for the difference between the two types of media echos here, the point is clear: the Macedonian report is just that, a report. It's funny that they are taking their naming situation so desperately serious they would find us important enough to report on, but that's about as far as it goes. The Greek blogs are radically different: they don't just report, they urge readers to put pressure on us. To the extent this is coming from inside Misplaced Pages, that's clearly disruptive misbehaviour. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:46, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Of course, the report has the general vibe of supporting Macedonia, but what else could we honestly expect? And as PMK1 said somewhere, it must be a slow week for actual news. Still no progress on Macedonian-English machine translation, unfortunately... BalkanFever 14:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Fut.Perf. Bulgarian-English tool does not work for me (some recommended to use it because Bulgarian and Macedonian have mutual intelligibility) The already-registered-account-only motion seems to be reasonable and should be applied to all involved side in the muddy situation.--Caspian blue 14:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

You could try Serbian-English too, but in general the results from either of them are sub-par. BalkanFever 14:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I am happy to help with any translation that you require/are interested in. Ever since the election the only news has been electoral rigging. :) Caspian Blue, Bulgarian and Macedonian ≠ Same, besides, the alphabets make direct translation impossible. You could have tried a transliteration into latin and the into Bulgarian cyrillic? PMK1 (talk) 14:49, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm.. thanks but the suggested way did not work either. I know Bulgarian and Macedonian are different language(the "mutual intelligibility" does not mean "same") I'm just a curious observer on this issue, so if I need some translation from Macedonian contents, I can rely on your help. :) --Caspian blue 17:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, contact me on my talk page. If I have enough time i will be happy to help. PMK1 (talk) 00:01, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

ARBMAC2

You know, half of your arguments about the Greeks can be substituted with "Ireland", "Kosovo", "Palestinian", "Chinese", et cetera and still make sense. Really, the Macedonians and the Greeks aren't better than any other. Although personally, I think that the move to Macedonia was silly because it goes against the precedent of the region taking the undisambiguated name, and the page really should've stayed at the old title. Then again, these naming disputes often get out of hand. I think all Chris needs is a slap on the wrist to be more careful next time, and that a taskforce be created to sort out the naming problems (as it did work somewhat for Ireland and Eastern Europe) Sceptre 18:24, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Map of Slavophones in Macedonia

Καλησπέρα.

Είδα αυτό τον χάρτη και έχω τις ενστάσεις μου. http://en.wikipedia.org/File:Macedonian_Slavic_dialects.png

Καταρχήν σαν Μακεδόνας από την περιοχή της Κοζάνης σε διαβεβαιώ πως στην περιοχή μου το νοτιότερο χωριό δίγλωσσων και όχι μόνο σλαβόφωνων μόνο το χωριό Κόμανος,ο οποίος είναι ελάχιστα νοτιότερα της Πτολεμαΐδας,τα περισσότερα χωριά από της περιοχής Πτολεμαΐδας ήταν Τουρκικά πριν την ανταλλαγή πληθυσμών(το μαρτυρούν άλλωστε και τα παλιά τους Τουρκικά ονόματα όπως και της Πτολεμαΐδας Καγιλάρ) ,ελάχιστα από αυτά τα χωριά περιελάμβαναν και σλαβόφωνους. Επίσης μου φαίνεται παράξενο πως περιοχές με συντριπτικά ποσοστά Ελληνόφωνων εμφανίζονται ως Σλαβόφωνα π.χ η Βέροια,η περιοχή της Θεσσαλονίκης,οι Σέρρες αν σε αυτές τις περιοχές υπήρχαν 10 Ελληνόφωνα χωριά και 1 Βουλγαρόφωνο σε αναλογία δεν νομίζω πως είναι σωστό να εμφανίζεται όλη η περιοχή σαν Σλαβόφωνη. Δημιουργεί λάθος συνειρμούς σε άτομα που δεν γνωρίζουν το θέμα. Περιμένω απάντησή σου.

Ευχαριστώ kzk842

You have already found the discussion page for that image, so please read it (and the other discussions referred to from there.) This has been discussed by many people, most of whom unfortunately do not grasp the topic of the map. I'll quote myself, for the 20th time, probably: "This isn't about "majorities". It's a dialect map, not a demographic map. Showing some place in a certain color doesn't mean that place is inhabited by a Slavic majority; it only means that whatever Slavic dialects are there (or were there), share some distinctive structural features with those of other places shown in the same colour. How many or how few speakers are there, or indeed whether any such speakers are left at all now, is immaterial. The presence of other languages (such as the majority presence of Greek) is outside the scope of such a map. "

Please try to understand this statement before you go on debating; if you don't understand it, read it again.

The contents of this map were adapted from the best reliable sources I had available at the time. If you have better sources, please let me know. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Oi

Sigh. --User:Woohookitty 04:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Ce107

Just noticed your warning to User Talk:Ce107 about Talk:Greece. Thanks. I've never had a guy attack me for agreeing with him about a better reference :p (Taivo (talk) 11:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC))

Heh. BTW, what this going on at Talk:Linguistics? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

There's a continuing stream of semi-linguists who want to add things like deconstruction and literary criticism into the article. They (or a single editor from India using sock puppets) are repeatedly beaten back by the Linguistics professors (five or six of us). The latest incarnation is someone who wanted to add Derrida by name in the article even though he's had no influence on mainstream linguistics and none of the professors had ever heard of him in their graduate careers in Linguistics. "He criticized de Saussure" was the main argument for including him. We're going to scrap the old, long, unorganized bibliography and start fresh. (Taivo (talk) 12:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC))

Macedonia 2

I am quickly approaching the point where I am going to block both you and Avg for disruption. I strongly suggest that you both stop commenting on each other. Both on pages related to the arbitration case and elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. Arguing with each other on the talk pages is pointless. It will not change the outcome of arbitration, and may in fact hurt your case in the eyes of the Arbitrators. Please add your evidence, your proposed decision, and let the Arbitration Committee handle the rest. You should consider this your only warning. I am leaving this same note for Avg. Please let me know if you have any questions. KnightLago (talk) 21:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm posting here, on Avg's page, and the evidence talk pages. I've already had enough of the sordid behavior, from many parties on this case. I strongly suggest everyone shape up very quickly. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:26, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Please don't let Avg get to you. There's no point in fighting with him - he's clearly hoping to goad you into tripping yourself up. Just ignore him, please. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:32, 1 May 2009 (UTC)