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Revision as of 23:15, 6 December 2005 editWAS 4.250 (talk | contribs)Pending changes reviewers18,993 edits →I don't understand← Previous edit Revision as of 12:38, 7 December 2005 edit undoWavesmikey (talk | contribs)360 edits →I don't understandNext edit →
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::::Please, please, please, please make the necessary changes to the '''content of the article'''. ] 23:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC) ::::Please, please, please, please make the necessary changes to the '''content of the article'''. ] 23:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

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Would anyone be interested in having the following insert put into the article?
== Thermodynamic evolution ==
{{main|Thermodynamic evolution}}

In 1875 Austrian physicist ] declared: ''"the general struggle for existence of animate beings is a struggle for ]"''. Ever since, there has been a continuous search to elucidate the thermodynamic mechanism behind evolution. As it is generally agreed that life evolved from non-life, a process called ], by some form of ], and as it is understood that both life and non-life abide by the ], then, in theory, it is reasoned that there should exist a functionable model of thermodynamic evolution. This line of research defines the field of thermodynamic evolution.
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I'm am rather ambivalent about doing so; the article is more rather geared for the ] page, which I spend a lot of time on, but I thought I would throw out the idea here to see what people think?--] 12:38, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

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Missing from the article

I believe one or more important types of biological evolution are missing from this article. See Horizontal gene transfer, Antigenic shift (important in current H5N1 avian flu problem), Reassortment. WAS 4.250 20:37, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I would classify those as mutations, and as I repeatedly have to emphasise, mutations do not cause evolution. Mutations are like background noise; they are too few in number to effect any noticeable change, even big mutations (1/N=~0). Evolution only occurs when a mechanism of evolution (i.e. selection, drift or migration) acts on a novel mutation to change that frequency upwards. If that is not enough, a high level of mutations required to produce evolution induces sterility in fruit flies.— Dunc|☺ 21:05, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I see your point. I put this suggestion in the more appropriate talk page (for mutation). But mutation in general is given very little space here; it is the engine that causes the variation that is selected among in the process of evolution and everyone agrees selection can select OUT stuff - maybe a litttle more data on how that variation gets IN the genes in the first place would help. Also genes crossing from one part of the tree of life to another (Horizontal gene transfer) should be at least mentioned. Its not as neat and tidy as the typical evolutionary tree would have it. WAS 4.250 22:55, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

If you want to be technical, since evolution is defined as change in allele frequency, mutations necessarily cause evolution. Of course, what we mostly care about isn't evolution in general, but adaptative evolution, which mutations alone are not sufficient to explain, and where selection becomes vital. I think we would do well to talk more about the limited role of mutation, both because it belongs and because it would be good for the article to anticipate and resolve the common confusion about evolution being random just because mutations are. We should certainly list the various sources of mutation, as well as things like crossing over, which aren't mutations as such but can have much the same effect. Alienus 23:18, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
But do mutations change allele frequency? Only in extremely small populations - the change from 1.0 to 0.999 (a mutation in a population of 500 diploids) isn't really a change in allele frequency - 0.999 is not significantly different from 1.0. As for crossing over - does it actually split genes? Guettarda 23:24, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I made no claims about the magnitude of the change, just that it constitutes change of some sort, hence qualifies as evolution. Having thought about it, it occurs to me that mutation can introduce a brand new allele, which may then become quite popular if it is selected for. Consider a mutant fly with resistance to DDT; a significant bit of evolution, triggered by a fit mutation. Again, it's something of a technicality, but I think a meaningful one. As for crossing over, it can definitely cause gross chromosomal abnormalities, which certainly qualifies as a mutation, and I seem to remember that it can split genes, thus potentially changing or even creating alleles. If I'm right about this, it should be mentioned somewhere. And if I'm wrong, that fact likewise deserves mention. Alienus23:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
If you define mutation evolution as "change in gene frequency" it has to mean significant change. Gene frequencies are not static - you will, necessarily have some variation from generation to generation. Change has to be significant change in order to call it evolution. Otherwise evolution becomes a trivial concept. Guettarda 19:20, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't think of mutation as a "change in gene frequency" - instead it is the creation of a gene when neither of the parents had the gene. Trivial changes like the variation from generation to generation are what evolution is all about, and evolution itself is trivial. Natural selection and the modern synthesis are more complicated and interesting. What is really interesting is that those trivial changes from one generation to another are not entirely random, because the more fit organisms have a better chance to increase the frequency of their own genes in the population. With enough time the trivial changes are not so trivial. --Ignignot 20:34, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Meant to say "evolution", not "mutation". Oops. Guettarda 05:29, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

mutation can introduce a brand new allele ... Where else would alleles come from? WAS 4.250 14:26, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I think crossing over can produce a new allele but doesn't qualify as mutation. I may well be wrong about this. Alienus 17:35, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Mutation could indeed receive a better treatment here; for example, I think a discussion of mutations that might produce gene duplication is in order, since this is believed to be a major mechanism for evolution of new proteins. Horizontal gene transfer, maybe... I don't know if I'd consider crossing over (recombination) to be mutation or not... If all these processes that alter DNA are considered the article could balloon quickly. Graft 16:36, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed about the gene dupe stuff; we might want to mention myoglobin and hemoglobin as an example. Another good one, documented in a recent Dawkins book, is duplication of the genes for the light-sensitive chemical (name eludes me at the moment) in retinal cones. As for the mutation issue, see above and also, how about a broader heading, like "Sources of genetic variation"? Alienus 17:35, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I've found the article lacking too. "Sources of genetic variation" seems a good idea. -- Ec5618 17:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Great, we've resolved to pin the bell on the cat. Now all we need is for someone to step up and implement what we've agreed upon. Any takers? Alienus 19:06, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Embryology

Why nothing on embryology? (unsigned)

The study of embryological development? I have heard that the embryos of hmans and other mammals and even birds look strikingly similar in the first stages of development. Humans have tails and slits that look like gills (but are not). Oddly, embryo doesn't say anything on the subject, and neither does embryology.
Still, I don't quite see why the evolution article should include information about embryos. -- Ec5618 15:53, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Embryology/comparative embryology should be mentioned in evidence for evolution but that page is a bit of a mess. — Dunc|☺ 17:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Arguments "disproving" evolution.

First off, let me begin by saying that I am a supporter of the theory of evolution and abiogenesis as well, if that's reassuring at all. I am not suggesting there is evidence or an argument proving evolution false.

Still, however, there is a big amount of people claiming evolution is nothing more but a load of rubbish. Here are the numbers of adherents to various religions, taken from the article on religion: 

1. Christianity: 1.9 billion
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Hinduism: 1 billion
4. Buddhism: 400 million
5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6. Primal-Indigenous: 300 million
7. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
8. Sikhism: 23 million
9. Spiritism: 15 million
10. Judaism: 14 million
11. Bahá'í: 7 million
12. Jainism: 4.2 million
13. Shinto: 4 million
14. Cao Dai: 4 million
15. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
16. Sant Mat / Surat Shabd Yoga : 2 million
17. Tenrikyo: 2 million
18. Unification Movement: 1.5 million
19. Ayyavazhi: 1.2 million
20. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
21. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
22. Rastafari movement: 600 thousand

The first two of these for example, Christianity and Islam, are held to contradict evolution by the majority of their followers. Aside from groups like Creationists, both the Bible and the Qoran mention God creating the various species. With that, rendering evolution compatible with these faiths requires a rather liberal interpretations of God's word.

Thus, with so many fierce deniers of the theory, I believe that it would be highly beneficial to provide a list of some common counter arguments and show why they do not disprove evolution(if they do not). The article on the technocratic movement has such as a section the format of which I believe could be used.

I understand that a wikipedia article is not a discussion forum, but an article on a theory as controversial as evolution cannot be complete without some information given on the origins of that controversy.

That is covered in the social effect section. As is explained there, accepting evolutionary biology as science is not viewed as contradicting Christianity by the major mainstream Christian churches, who do not follow Biblical innerancy, along with many other religions, including many of the other examples you cite above. Please check your facts.
As for scientific arguments against evolution, there are none. — Dunc|☺ 21:36, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
See also creation-evolution controversy--Nowa 22:15, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
All you need is right here. That's the best place on the web debunking the common and not-so-common creationist arguments. We would never even get this Misplaced Pages article within a shadow of approaching the depth and utility of that page, so it's best not to try - just link it. --Cyde 10:51, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't think the author is suggesting we need to include the anti-evolutionary issues as fact but that they are sufficiently widespread that they must be acknowledged in the context of this article. I agree, however, that keeping them to a different page is preferable - if only to keep the article manageable! --Davril2020 13:43, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
The current version of the article contains a section on "Social controversies" which links to relevant articles about religious and other objections to evolution. The primary article on evolution should be about what evolution is, just as the primary article on AIDS should be on mainstream, expert assessments of the disease rather than the more fringe theories (which are linked to at the end of the article). Whether something is "mainstream" or "fringe" in this sense has no relationship to the number of non-experts who believe in it. --Fastfission 16:40, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
I like that phrase "The truth of X has nothing to do with the number of non-experts who believe in it"--Nowa 22:26, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Extinction

Can someone provide a reference for the "50% of all genera" figure? I'd be inclined to say the number is actually much, much higher than this. Graft 22:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

If you are refering to recently added stuff by me, I copied the data from the relevent extinction articles here at Misplaced Pages. Going to those articles for their source lists is one option. (It really sucks when people replace quotes with a paraphrase or move a reference to a data item to the bottom so you can't tell what reference supports what statement.) WAS 4.250 03:48, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Sooooo much vandalism

It really sucks that this page is being targeted so often by immature brats who know their evidence against evolution is so weak that their only recourse is vandalism. I'm not suggesting that we lock up this page, but rather, continue to improve it so often that the vandalism edits are drowned in a sea of positive edits. It just gets tiring looking at the edit history and seeing that most of it is a cycle of random IP vandalizing and then being reverted. --Cyde 00:10, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid stupidity knows no ideological or philosophical home. The creationism and evolution-creationism controversy pages are equally bad. --Davril2020 00:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Ironically, the very theory of "intelligent design" is proof that it wasn't. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:28, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
You both are entirely accurate (Davril2020 and Cyde.) On Abortion, another divisive topic, we regularly revert both tirades against the "facist white male bible-thumping republicans" (those are presumably from the pro-choice idiots) and edits where every instance of the word "abortion" (including, oddly enough, in the section on spontaneous abortion, or miscarriage) with "MURDER" and every instance of physician or doctor with "MURDERER" (presumably from the pro-life version of moron.) Really, complete idiocy is non-partisan in any dispute. Vigilance is the only answer.
I like your attitude, Cyde - may I add that to my user page, and quote and/or reference it? KillerChihuahua 00:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Of course - actually, I don't think I'm even allowed to say that you aren't because of the GNU FDL! --Cyde 00:39, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
ROFL, I wasn't thinking about that in this context - thanks much though, I appreciate it. KillerChihuahua 00:48, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
You can not only say it, you can sue about it. The copyright license you agreed to in contributing just means you'll lose if you sue. But you already knew that... WAS 4.250 18:14, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm....

Removed irrelevant troll/human interaction again. Please try using this page to improve the article. Stop feeding the troll.

Ok Break it up!

<drill sergent>
Misplaced Pages is not usenet, ladies! And if the darn policy page forgot to mention that one (policy pages are apt to do that a lot these days), I don't particularly care, because wikipedia IS an encyclopedia!


So less of the yappity yappity usenet quack, and more of the cooperating on writing an encyclopedia!

Company, GO BACK ON TOPIC! <blows whistle>
</drill sergent>

Kim Bruning 07:23, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Kim,
  • Thanks for the reminder. However, I am unsure why the "cooperating" and the "ladies" comment is necessary? Is a POV involved there?
  • I have tried to be careful to direct my comments directly to the content of the main page, i.e., should matters of faith be included on the evolution page. Especially since the topic of evolution strikes very close to matters of faith. What I was trying to say was that the issues of faith do not belong on the evolution page, and tried to explain why; if that intent was unclear, then I take responsibility, and hope to correct it now.
  • "Sarge," I share your concern about the "yappity" yap, however I do believe we are on topic. Democratic processes are not like military ones; democratic processes (which is also a wiki policy) encourage the give-and-take approach to decision making, military processes encourage more "top-down" and autocratic decision making. Democratic process demands a great deal of communication skill, which includes patience, we cannot shorten the process. Education is a very painful process, in this case education about the role of science in faith, and vice-versa. So the editors of this page must allow that process to occur. Evolution causes change in our ideas, our institutions, and our relationships; all change is painful, but especially corporate change regarding faith. So we feel more of that pain on this page than on others. Again, discussing the role of faith in evolution is on topic.

Steven McCrary 15:36, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

"Oh the pain, the pain" Z. Smith Phd. 17:43, 3 December 2005 (UTC:-)
However, this particular question is one that has been tested and re-tested, and the current stance on this article represents the consensus of a long history of editors. There's only reason to re-engage in the debate if there's substantial reason to believe that consensus will be overturned. Otherwise it's just needlessly going over old ground. Entertaining the desire of every fool who comes along to have this debate is a big waste of time and space. Graft 02:11, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Why do my Changes to the article keep getting Reverted??

In biology, evolution is the process by which populations of organisms acquire and pass on novel traits from generation to generation

This implies it is Factual, which it is not.

A more correct Version which I add and keeps getting changed is:

"In biology, evolution is a theory that states that the process by which ... "

Explain which is more correct, and be prepared to back it up with solid logic and reasoning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.115.141.10 (talk • contribs)

Your version said "In biology, evolution is a theory that states the process by which populations of organisms acquire and pass on novel traits from generation to generation, affecting the overall makeup of the population and even leading to the emergence of new species," which is not a complete sentence. The introductory paragraph and the following paragraph devote plenty of space to discussing the theoretical aspects of evolution, in my opinion. — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:59, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Evolution IS the process by which populations etc. etc. etc. It's a definition, and as such belongs in the first paragraph. It is defining the process, not the theory of the process. - Randwicked 07:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
KnowledgeSeek if the Grammor is incorrect why not correct it instead of deleting it? I love how you completly avoiding my intentfull purpose of my comment, and just foccess solely on grammor. Yet you make no effort to correct the grammor and save the orginal point or revision I was trying to make to the article. I think this is called Hidden Motives, and can be construed as censorship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.115.141.10 (talk • contribs)
Please add new talk sections to the bottom of the talk page, and please add new comments to a section by using the "edit" link next to the section header. I already left you a message on your talk page about this. In the first place, I did not delete your sentence, other editors did, so there is nothing for me to correct. Secondly, I did not focus solely on the grammar. My statement had two sentences. The first mentioned the malformed sentence fragment. The second explained my belief that the theoretical aspect is already well covered. Please read both sentences before making wild accusations. Also, this is not an easily reparable error such as a missing comma. With your addition, the sentence no longer makes sense. It is similar to changing "Gravity is the attractive force between two masses" to "Gravity is the theory that the attractive force between two masses", which doesn't make any sense. Furthermore, if you introduce a change that others disagree with, the burden is on you to repair it. There is an obvious way to fix the sentence, and that's by removing "the theory that", which is exactly what the other editors did. Finally, your vague warnings of "hidden motives" and censorship are completely unhelpful. What hidden motive do you propose I have? — Knowledge Seeker দ 07:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually, it is factual. You really need to read Stephen Jay Gould's famous essay, "Evolution as Fact and Theory. It should clear up your misconceptions. --Cyde Weys 06:56, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Bird Flu and evolution

Regarding the current statement in the article that the theory of evolution by natural selection is helping in the fight against a bird flu pandemic, I checked the references but could not find the connection. Could the contributor (or anyone else) please elaborate? It's an important point, but I want to be sure it is well documented, otherwise perhaps it should not be in the article. --Nowa 12:04, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

There are two places where evolution is being applied; the current evolution of the virus, and relationship to the 1918 pandemic. I leave these links for the use of whoever is editing that section of the article, and for Nowa:
KillerChihuahua 12:29, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
KillerChihuahua, Thanks for the links. I found the second article particularly informative about how Bird Flu may have evolved. Maybe I'm missing something, however, but I still don't see anything in either article that indicates how the evolutionary studies are directly connected to the development of new medicines. On the contrary, the second article indicates that there may be nothing to worry about and no new medicines are needed. Unless I hear otherwise, I'm going recommend that the sentence "Their study is being used to create new medicines and other health aids..." be removed. Any seconds? Opposed? Don't care?--Nowa 15:17, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know what time frame you had in mind, but please don't delete it. I will work with you in improving it. No one is more all about sourcing than I am, but general statements like "time exists" are different than "he died on oct.5" Be forewarned that improving it will increase it and not decrease it as a pro-evolution paragraph, 'cause evolution is as true as "time exists". On the other hand, there are many details about evolution that are not known (just as there are for time (just cause time exists now how do you know it existed yesterday? Maybe all the memories in your head were put there at creation last night)). I'm going to start by looking at the two references just mentioned and probably adding them. Then I'll try to deal with the specific critism you just gave. Please be as specific in what you what as possible. I'll work hard on identifying sources and others and you can help out with phrasing it just right. Thank you for helping! WAS 4.250 15:59, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. I took the liberty of moving the references here for the moment. Probably one key reference is all that's needed for the article.
Timeline of H5N1 Evolution of H5N1 (technical) Evolution and the avian flu (nontechnical) why act what is being done (research based on knowledge of evolutionary details

) --Nowa 17:50, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I've skimmed through the articles, and I still don't see anything that indicates that the theory of evolution by natural selection is having a significant influence on the development of ways to combat bird flu. On the contrary, one article states "Reality check time: Nobody — nobody — is sure this (emergence of human pathogenic bird flu) will happen. Well, the experts are sure some flu strain will produce a pandemic eventually, but they don’t know which and they don’t know when and they don’t know how bad it will be."
When the current evolution article states "(The basic mechanism of evolution) are being used to create new medicines ..." that tells me that the theory of evoluion is somehow being used to suggest new medicines, shorten development time, increase the probability of success or otherwise provide a measurable benefit to drug development. All I really see in these articles is that new strains of H5N1 are developing and if one of those stains becomes pathogenic to humans, we will have a pandemic. This may certainly be an example of evolution, but it doesn't give any guidance to developing drugs.
Perhaps a discussion of the evolution of H5N1 belongs more appropriately in the secion on evidence for evolution.--Nowa 18:15, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what references to Bird Flu could do to contribute to the article in the long run. Unless there is an actual epidemic, the story will be forgotten within a few years (perhaps even months) and the statement will become redudent. So unless it contributes new evidence of evolution it should be left out. josh 18:48, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Nothwithstanding Josh's comments, I take back a bit of what I said in the prior posting. I looked more carefully at the technical article on H5N1 evolution and it was clear that figuring out the evolutionary relationships between the various outbreaks of human and avian flu has at the very least helped figure out that the flu is avian in origin and that this, in turn, has helped direct the development of drugs. I therefore step aside on the issue, unless other considerations indicate that the sentence should not belong. In the meantime, I will attempt to wordsmith it a bit.--Nowa 19:02, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm better at sourcing than wordsmithing. I hope we have a happy collaberation. Cheers. WAS 4.250 19:10, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

All done. I put the technical evolution note in as an end note. That seemed to be the most on point about how evolutionary mechanisms were at least guiding the efforts to prevent an outbreak. Others my wish to add other references as well.
I kept the indication that H5N1 was known popularly as "bird flu" for the sake of the readers who are unfamiliary with "H5N1". --Nowa 19:29, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I have no problem with the changes just made. Looks good to me! Thanks for helping. WAS 4.250 20:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Criticism section

After the anon visited us at ID it got me thinking we should have a criticism section here. It could in brief describe valid scientific criticisms of the past, pointing to Lamarckism and several other notable failed evolution hypotheses (if any), and then detail 2-3 major creationist objections and the response in brief (macroevolution and information), citing the main article at the beginning of the section/paragraph (Creation-evolution controversy). Unless we can establish creationism as non-notable, it deserves more than a link in this article.

For example we came across this in ID, Vienna cardinal draws lines in Intelligent Design row, you don't need to read it as I took the basic argument from the article as follows:

"Common sense tells us that matter cannot organize itself," he said. "It needs information to do that, and information is a manifestation of intelligence."

I think at the very least this should be addressed in the new criticism section; with links to more complete explanations from there. - RoyBoy 16:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I urge caution: a cardinal's opinion about a scientific subject is a non-expert dealing with an issue from a religious POV. I would not want to see a quote from Dawkins on the Christianity article. KillerChihuahua 16:37, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
minor point: the cardinal seemed to be supporting evolution in the scientific realm while requiring design guidance in the theological realm, but wording it in such a way as to hint at a possible change in Catholic policy from teaching evolution to giving comfort to ID. ...dave souza 18:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't mean we need to put the quote in there, but just that the notion that information somehow requires intelligence to exist/form should be addressed in an criticism/misconception section. - RoyBoy 22:12, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

We have entire articles dedicated to creationism, its variations (ID), its movements, and its conflict with evolution. I would support a section on the misconceptions used to suggest evolution is not a fact. We already note areas of reseach in evolution (rather than throwing up our hands and saying look something we don't know therefore god). WAS 4.250 16:49, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

"Common sense tells us that matter cannot organize itself. It needs information to do that, and information is a manifestation of intelligence." is a perfect example of what could be dealt with in a common misconceptions section. WAS 4.250 16:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Excellent way of addressing this, WAS 4.250! As a suggestion, we could start with the 5 most common misconceptions as given at TalkOrigins:
  • Evolution has never been observed.
  • Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
  • There are no transitional fossils.
  • The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance.
  • Evolution is only a theory; it hasn't been proved.
It may eventually become large enough to become a sub-article. KillerChihuahua 16:59, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Can I humbly suggest for consideration some wording I put forward earlier for an Unguided evolution sub-section of Social controversies, anticipating that the AfD of the unguided evolution article would result in a redirect to evolution, which it has. The misconceptions list is a good idea and the necessary counter arguments could link to the relevant section earlier in the article, but keeping it brief could be a problem. To meet the original point, perhaps Social controversies could be renamed Controversies and criticisms:

Many people oppose these theories on the basis of their religious convictions, and some use the neologism unguided evolution to describe a process without the supernatural intervention they consider necessary to produce species on the basis of their teleological assumption that there is an organizing principle behind natural laws and phenomena. This view is prevalent among creationists and proponents of intelligent design, and is also taken by some supporters of theistic evolution.
As a modern science, biology uses a methodological assumption of philosophical naturalism to study and explain the natural world. It does not assume the existence or nonexistence of the supernatural or attempt to investigate such matters, as supernatural phenomena must by definition be beyond natural investigation and explanation. Biologists consider that genetic differences arise randomly in organisms, but the survival of mutations in a population is not random but is guided, albeit without any conscious or intelligent intervention, through the pressures that arise from the operation of natural selection. Creationists consider this to be evidence of an atheist bias in evolutionary biology.
hope something along these lines can be included. ...dave souza 17:50, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

"Misconception:Evolution is like a climb up a ladder of progress; organisms are always getting better.

Response:

It is true that natural selection weeds out individuals that are unfit in a particular situation, but for evolution, "good enough" is good enough. No organism has to be perfect. For example, many taxa (like some mosses, protists, fungi, sharks, opossums, and crayfish) have changed little over great expanses of time. They are not marching up a ladder of progress. Rather, they are fit enough to survive and reproduce, and that is all that is necessary to ensure their existence.

Other taxa may have changed and diversified a great deal — but that doesn't mean they got "better." After all, climates change, rivers shift course, new competitors invade — and what was "better" a million years ago, may not be "better" today. What works "better" in one location might not work so well in another. Fitness is linked to environment, not to progress. " from WAS 4.250 19:07, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Misconception section sounds like a great idea. - RoyBoy 22:12, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Misconceptions

Misconceptions about evolution and how it works:

1. "Evolution is a theory about the origin of life."

2. "Evolution is like a climb up a ladder of progress; organisms are always getting better."

3. "Evolution means that life changed 'by chance.'"

4. "Natural selection involves organisms 'trying' to adapt."

5. "Natural selection gives organisms what they 'need.'"


Misconceptions about the evidence for evolution:

1. "Evolution is 'just' a theory."

2. "Evolution is a theory in crisis and is collapsing as scientists lose confidence in it."

3. "Gaps in the fossil record disprove evolution."

4. "Evolutionary theory is incomplete and is currently unable to give a total explanation of life."

5. "The theory of evolution is flawed, but scientists won't admit it."

6. "Evolution is not science because it is not observable or testable."

7. "Most biologists have rejected 'Darwinism' (i.e., no longer really agree with the ideas put forth by Darwin and Wallace)."


Misconceptions about the implications of evolution:

1. "Evolution leads to immoral behavior. If children are taught that they are animals, they will behave like animals."

2. "Evolution supports the idea that 'might makes right' and rationalizes the oppression of some people by others."


Misconceptions about evolution and religion:

1. "Evolution and religion are incompatible."


Misconceptions about teaching evolution:

1. "Teachers should teach 'both sides' and let students decide for themselves."

2. "Evolution is itself 'religious,' so requiring teachers to teach evolution violates the First Amendment."


from WAS 4.250 17:02, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

WAS 4.250, thank you for putting together this helpful list. I believe that it can serve as a checklist for the article itself. In other words, a good article will explain evolution in such a way as to avoid these misconceptions. Personally, I think the best way to do this would be in a non-polemical way. In other words, rather than say "Some people believe x, but they are wrong" or even the slighltly more benign "It is a misconception that ..." I think the article should just explain carefully what evolution means and why in such a way that it leaves no room for misconception. WAS 4.250, do you think there are places where the article fails to do this, but can and should? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:11, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I didn't put together this list. I saw an article about a suit about some web site, looked at the web site to find out what they were sueing about and ran across the list above. Again, the list AND RESPONSES TO THE ITEMS are at . WAS 4.250 20:13, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

So what? The only purpose of this page is to improve the article. The question is, how can we turn your comment above into something that actually improves the article? I was making a suggestion. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

You say "So what?". I doubt you have any clue how happy - elated even - your comment made me. Thank you for every word. You have no idea the roadblocks I've faced. People who want to revert because I quoted rather than rephrased. It's been crazy. That said, trying to be legal everywhere is important. Slrubenstein, Slrubenstein, Slrubenstein; let me enjoy this moment before the fair use vultures decend to destroy us.... WAS 4.250 21:51, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Um, you are welcome. If anyone raises fiar use objections, then paraphrase and provide a citation (see Misplaced Pages: Cite sources — comply thoroughly with this policy and two-thirds of the objections will vanish. Note: citing sources is not the same thing as lengthy quotes or links). Also, I really mean it that the material should be incorporated into the article in a way that it is not being presented as a "response" to someone's objection. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:15, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

organization

I did some work on sections 2 and 3. I am not satisfied with the organization of sections 3-8, although I am not sure how the material should be organized. Be that as it may, I do not see the logic for the organization, and nothing in the introduction prepares me for the organization of this material (to be clear, I have NO issue with the content). Offhand I can see two principles of organization:

  • the first one is based on a distinction I have highlighted in section 1: provide evidence for the "fact" of evolution, then provide evidence that supports the "theory" of evolution (e.g. evidence that supports each element of the modern synthesis).
  • Another possibility is suggested by something else in 1.1 (which I did not write) — the three elements of the modern synthesis. Reorganize all of 3-8 into three major sections, each one corresponding to one of these three elements.
  • Perhaps others can come up with another, better way to organize the material. If they can, I urge them to explain the logic of the organization somwhere in the introduction. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:54, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
'Be bold. Do it. I like your recent help to the article. If you do something everyone hates it can be easily reverted. I have little doubt the current setup (except the ROUGH organization WITHIN the "Mechanisms") was unplanned. Try something better. Reverting is easy. WAS 4.250 20:08, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the encouragement, but the reason I haven't done it is because I really am not sure what is best. I'd really like to know what Graft and Guettarda think on this, Slrubenstein | Talk 22:18, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, so the issue is the overall organization of the article. It IS not adequate. Neither you nor I have a pat answer for what is adequate. Any suggestions? WAS 4.250 22:31, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I really would like Graft and Guettarda to take a crack at it. They have made significant contributions to this article over a long period of time and I think would have very constructive ideas. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:34, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I was going to suggest that we consult Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Evolutionary biology, but it doesn't seem to help on the structure of this article. Are there any WikiProjects for near-top level science articles? Good examples of such articles? --Rikurzhen 23:39, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

britannica

this is the britannica outline with some wording modified. this may be a starting point for working on the structure of this article. feel free to change things below and build the outline for this article starting with this template. --Rikurzhen 06:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

1. General overview (this article)

2. The science of evolution (maybe Evolutionary biology)


So you're suggesting plagiarism on a massive scale? Britannica isn't the end-all and be-all, by the way. --Cyde Weys 06:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
obviously not, but the FAC removal mentioned Britannica as a standard against which to compare this article. in fact, i believe we have material that covers most of this outline already and merely need to find a good organization. --Rikurzhen 07:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Proposal

Here is the part we need to agree or not agree to:

1. General overview

2. Science of evolution

WAS 4.250 16:50, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The current setup is:

  1. Science: fact and theory
  2. Who studies evolution?
  3. Ancestry of organisms
  4. Evidence of evolution
  5. History of life
  6. Basic mechanisms of evolution
  7. Adaptation
  8. Speciation and extinction
  9. History of evolutionary thought
  10. Social controversies

Maybe restructure that into this:

  1. Evidence of evolution
  2. History of evolutionary thought
  3. Social implications of the theory of evolution
  4. Science of evolution

WAS 4.250 17:14, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I like your proposal at top - Overview, 2 sections followed by 3 sub-sections each. KillerChihuahua 17:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

See the article: I neither added nor deleted content in the article, but I grouped them in accordance with the proposal being discussed. Even if it gets reverted, by going to history, one can look at it and make judgements. WAS 4.250 17:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I would do it this way:

1. The concept of evolution

  1. non-scientific notions of evolution (evolution=unfolding or progress)
  2. scientific understandings of evolution
  • the relationship between fact and theory in science
  • evolution as fact versus evolution as theory

2. The rise of evolutionary theory

  1. pre-Darwin (like, Aristotle to Lamarck)
  2. Darwin's theory (explain the theory clearly and put in whatever data is necessary to explain specifically how he arrived at his theory, but no "evidence" beyond that
  3. Mendelian Genetics (again, the bare minimum to understand the theory
  4. the modern synthesis

3. Evidence for evolution as a fact

  1. fossil evidence
  2. directly observed evidence

4. Evidence for the Modern Synthesis

  1. evidence for the relationship between genotypical and phenotypical variation
  • mutation
  • drift
  • founder effect
  1. evidence that species consist of populations with genetic variation (i.e. is a statistical phenomena) rather than an ideal type
  2. selection and adaptation
  • principles of fecundity, r vs. k strategies
  • principles of morbididty, competition for resources and predation
  • natural selection
  • Sexual selection
  • Baldwinian selection
  • the selfish gene
  • evo-devo
  • microevolution
  • macroevolution

5. Social meanings of evolution Or something like that. Just an opinion, anyway Slrubenstein | Talk 18:22, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

evowiki

also, maybe evowiki can help us. however, their license may not be compatible. --Rikurzhen 07:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

human chimp comparisons

this will probably come in useful soon:

http://genetics.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pgen.0010056

Humans and chimpanzees diverged approximately 6 million years ago, making the chimpanzee the closest extant relative to modern humans. The characterization of sequence changes both at the nucleotide and the structural level is therefore important for the understanding of primate evolution, including human-specific traits. At the nucleotide level, the identity of the genomes has been estimated to be 98% to 99% , excluding insertions and deletions and other small rearrangements. The chimpanzee Chromosome 22 (PTR22), which is orthologous to human Chromosome 21(HSA21), was the first to be sequenced and the majority of the rest of the genome is represented as a draft assembly . The exact nucleotide substitution rate for the alignment of these sequences is 1.23% (excluding insertions and deletions). Taking insertion and deletion events into account, the sequence identity has been estimated to be about 95% .

  1. Fujiyama A, Watanabe H, Toyoda A, Taylor TD, Itoh T, et al. (2002) Construction and analysis of a human-chimpanzee comparative clone map. Science 295: 131–134. Find this article online
  2. Li WH, Saunders MA (2005) Initial sequence of the chimpanzee genome and comparison with the human genome. Nature 437: 69–87. Find this article online
  3. Ebersberger I, Metzler D, Schwarz C, Paabo S (2002) Genome-wide comparison of DNA sequences between humans and chimpanzees. Am J Hum Genet 70: 1490–1497. Find this article online
  4. Hacia JG, Makalowski W, Edgemon K, Erdos MR, Robbins CM, et al. (1998) Evolutionary sequence comparisons using high-density oligonucleotide arrays. Nat Genet 18: 155–158. Find this article online
  5. Thomas JW, Touchman JW, Blakesley RW, Bouffard GG, Beckstrom-Sternberg SM, et al. (2003) Comparative analyses of multi-species sequences from targeted genomic regions. Nature 424: 788–793. Find this article online
  6. Watanabe H, Fujiyama A, Hattori M, Taylor TD, Toyoda A, et al. (2004) DNA sequence and comparative analysis of chimpanzee chromosome 22. Nature 429: 382–388. Find this article online
  7. Britten RJ (2002) Divergence between samples of chimpanzee and human DNA sequences is 5%, counting indels. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 99: 13633–13635. Find this article online
Bo-ring. So what? None of this is especially new. Graft 04:31, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
An older claim now has an overly prominent position in the article. I found this to update it but haven't gotten around to it. --Rikurzhen 04:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand

"Genetic data indicates that humans and chimpanzees have highly similar DNA sequences. At the nucleotide level, the identity of the genomes has been estimated to be 98% to 99%, or about 95% when insertions, deletions and other small rearrangements are taken into account." has been added to the article, obviously from the prior talk subsection. I don't understand how insertions and deletions are "small" when the smallest unit of information is the nucleotide. It seems to me that the "real" number is the 95% number. The only way 99% would a more real number is if the LARGER changes simply moved blocks of data, like rearranging chapters in a book or the order of subroutines in a computer program, so their use as instructions was unaltered. But we know little about the meta-code that instructs the cell on the timing of calling those subroutines (making the RNA that makes the protein), so even if the protein making nucleotide sequences are 99% the same, the difference in the other nucleotides making it add up to 95%, we simply don't know how much of that so-called junk is actually meta-code. Even long chains of junk can be metacode by changing the physical locations of other things. And remember, this code self executes because it IS physical. Can anyone clarify this and justify using a number other than 95%? Thanks. WAS 4.250 16:34, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Good reasoning about why 95% is more functionally relavant (that's why I added it), but we do probably need to keep mention of 98.5% (although not necessarily as the first sentence of the article). The reason is that 98.5% is difference due to "substitutions" for human-chimp divergence, and substitutions are what the molecular clock calculations are based on. Also, we need to mention it because everyone has already heard the "old saw" about 98.5% and would be confused if we didn't mention it. --Rikurzhen 17:26, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Then it would make sense to give the old number saying it is an old number, give the more up to date 99% (or whatever) number that is useful as a molecular clock and say that's what it is good for and give the up to date 95% (or whatever) number and say it measures all the changes including those that we know affect gene function and those that may or may not ("junk genes"). Make sense? WAS 4.250 17:55, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
All of these numbers really depend on what you're interested in measuring and have more to do with setting a competent standard than anything else. If you want to compare divergence between human/chimp and something else, you want a number that works well universally. Percent identity is actually an extraordinarily shitty way to look at divergence, since it is a function of alignable sequence. That is, we say there is 99% identity between human/chimp based on substitutions and 69% between human/mouse based on substitutions. But there is much less alignable sequence between human and mouse, so the TRUE divergence between human and mouse is underrepresented, skewing that percent-identity figure higher. A much better figure to use (the one favored by most evolutionary biologists) is something like the number of synonymous coding substitutions per site between the two species. But, obviously, this is a much more technical number and not really suitable for presentation to the public. Thus, the shitty number, percent identity, is used. Since it's shitty, we might as well make it as simple as possible and take percent identity of substitutions. That's the best defense I can give for percent identity according to substitutions. Graft 21:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Please, please, please, please make the necessary changes to the content of the article. WAS 4.250 23:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Would anyone be interested in having the following insert put into the article?

Thermodynamic evolution

Main article: Thermodynamic evolution

In 1875 Austrian physicist Ludwig Boltzmann declared: "the general struggle for existence of animate beings is a struggle for entropy". Ever since, there has been a continuous search to elucidate the thermodynamic mechanism behind evolution. As it is generally agreed that life evolved from non-life, a process called abiogenesis, by some form of chemical evolution, and as it is understood that both life and non-life abide by the laws of thermodynamics, then, in theory, it is reasoned that there should exist a functionable model of thermodynamic evolution. This line of research defines the field of thermodynamic evolution.

I'm am rather ambivalent about doing so; the article is more rather geared for the thermodynamics page, which I spend a lot of time on, but I thought I would throw out the idea here to see what people think?--Wavesmikey 12:38, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

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