Misplaced Pages

I've just blocked Spanishboy2006 for 24 hours for edit warring and violating the 3RR rule. Regarding autonomous/disputed, can someone clearly write what is the present consensus and what is the reason for it so that we don't spend any more time on it? --Tone 11:19, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The concept of Kosovo as an autonomous region gained tacit consensus a few days ago, my way of looking at it is that no matter what the POV~, saying that it is autonomous is accepted by both sides. Serbians maintain it is their autonomous region, others think autonomy as equivalent to independence. Spanishboy also disregarded the hidden note on the consensus on place names. I'm looking into the possibility of him being a sock of a banned user, I have traced him to an IP address that has only made edits on Albanian/Kosovo related articles, his edits have only been on these subjects too. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 11:32, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

No, Brutaldeluxe, I'm afraid autonomy is not the same as independence. As you may know, Kosovo does not have any sort of legal dependence on Serbia, hence the word independence. Only a couple of countries actually positively respect Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo. The rest have either accepted the new state or are watching the situation.

Kosovo is "autonomous" only from the Serbian POV. To the Kosovars in Kosovo and to the 62 countries that have recognised its independence, it is an independent Republic of Kosovo. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 11:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Forget all that, we've been over it. Since we can't say that it is an independent country, autonomous region comes a close second, since at least it implies self-governance. Does anyone still disagree on that? (Yes, I bet)Brutaldeluxe (talk) 12:02, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Um, yeah. I disagree. It sounds like you decided to bunt instead of actually, you know, coming up with something that reflects reality. Your statement above is rather astounding - "Since we can't call it the letter A, let's just call it letter B. Letter A does resemble letter B, you know." Autonomy implies dependence. Kosovo is NOT dependent on Serbia. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 12:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

As you just placed a bet, there are people who disagree. Kosovo is an independent sovereign state that isn't a UN member yet, just like Republic of China on that matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kedadi (talk • contribs) 12:19, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Well I'm happy with calling it a state, but the consensus just hasn't been reached. All I'm saying is that, disregarding everything else, I thought everyone agreed on the fact that it is self-governed.Brutaldeluxe (talk) 12:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

This is one dispute in which I haven't interfered, but there is one issue to be addressed. Until recently, we used the word region (disputed region), but now however, state seems to have materialised. This is misleading and wholly incorrect. I am not arguing against those wishing for Kosovo to be presented as an all out country because I really have no opinion on this. But we are talking about a republic. We cannot use this term if maintaining a balanced position because Kosovo was never deemed a republic within Yugoslavia whilst Serbia was. However, when representing the entity which declared independence, a republic is precisely how it is purported to be by its architects. The point is that state and republic are antonyms, they have opposite meanings. It is only acceptable to refer to any sovereign body as a state if generalising (eg. state pension, the law of the state etc). In the opening sentences, it is important not to generalise but to be precise. Precision on the topic is itself the subject of debate. State is the term currently being used to represent the Albanian angle; so if anything, would those representing this particular pro-independence view atleast accept an amendment to the word state; even if only to use republic. I know there is no convenient terminology to please everyone, but state really strikes at the heart of accuracy. Evlekis (talk) 13:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

You don't have to mess the past and the present, the current political status doesn't have to do anything with the past status within Yugoslavia. If Kosovo cannot be called a state, then why can Republic of China?, their political status is about the same by not being a UN member (Republic of China is recognized by 23 states and Kosovo recognized by 62 states).--kedadi (talk) 14:30, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I've already reverted twice today, so I can't rollback to the last stable version (the one with disputed region, apparently). I think that's what should be done until more editors can join in and Spanishboy's block runs out. I posted this already, but Kosovo is listed as fulfilling the criteria of the Montevideo convention at List of sovereign states.Brutaldeluxe (talk) 15:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Correct, Brutaldeluxe, Kosovo fulfills Montevideo convention, so it's a state. And it is this that is being disputed now by Serbia. Also, Kosovo has always had clearly defined administrative borders which are not being disputed by Serbia. Arianit (talk) 17:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

sigh, the Republic of Kosovo is a state, albeit a disputed one. Kosovo (the subject of this article) isn't a state, it is the territory claimed by both the Republic of Kosovo and the Republic of Serbia. If people could agree to already create a Republic of Kosovo article, that article could be treated on the same basis as Republic of China. Until we do that, the Republic of Kosovo will just remain a sub-topic of "post-2008 history" to this article. Consequently, Kedadi, what you want to do is support a {{split}} of a standalone Republic of Kosovo off this article. After all, we don't merge Republic of China into China, do we. --dab (𒁳) 18:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The Kosovo article should be split between Kosovo the region and Kosovo the state. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 00:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I've tried a couple times to put the constant childish edit warring from Spanishboy and others to rest, but he's so caught up in his nationalistic agenda that facts are merely a speed bump in his mind. I have now tried to match the article (in dispute) to the hatnote, which is not in dispute. This should eliminate any more childish warring. Misplaced Pages is not your battlefield; it is supposed to be objective, so unless spanishboy really thinks there's NO dispute at all, the word disputed should be incorporated, as it's accurate. ThuranX (talk) 18:42, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

So, I take it the split failed to find consensus and we are now back to the version of 24 July before Brutaldeluxe's edit. --dab (𒁳) 09:14, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

You should change Kosovo from country to state (or region), right after you have done so with Scotland. If Scotland (not recognized by any country in the world) is a country, so should be Kosovo, recognized almost by the entire Western World.sulmues 02:08, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

split

Done. You can edit to your heart's content at Independent Republic of Kosovo.Brutaldeluxe (talk) 00:27, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Well the region and the state cover the same territory. The dispute is what it is and what to call it, not that they are two separate things. I don't think this split will be allowed per Misplaced Pages policy if the goal is to create two separate versions of the same topic. Also, independent and republic are kinda redundant. How about just Republic of Kosovo, if you still decide to go with it. Arianit (talk) 07:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

there is indeed no dispute that the region of Kosovo and the 2008 Republic of Kosovo are two separate items. They clearly are. The question is whether it makes sense to have two articles about them. Since these articles will have a large topical overlap, it may be better to merge them, but it must then be made very clear that the RoK is only a subtopic of this article. --dab (𒁳) 09:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

guys, you can't just create articles at random titles like Independent Republic of Kosovo. There is a reason and a history behind the protection of Republic of Kosovo. If there is a bona fide move to recreating the Republic of Kosovo article I can lift protection, but can you please take it a bit more slowly and see if there is consensus for this? --dab (𒁳) 08:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I have fixed the mess made by Brutaldeluxe over the split. I do not endorse or disendorse the split, but if there is significant resistance to this, the whole thing will have to be reverted. --dab (𒁳) 09:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

• I oppose the split, under whatever title, as I always have. It's a single geographical entity, all the splitting and forking only represents competing political views on it and is thus little more than POV-forking. Thanks to Dab for the technical fixes. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
  • well then let's merge it back. I think the split is arguable, but not really necessary. The point is that people keep whining about the Republic of China article being more sympathetic to the partially-recognized state. The split is the "China" solution, viz. two articles, one at China and one at Republic of China. But the situation is not, of course, parallel, the RoC governing like 0.5% of its claimed territory, and the RoK at least partially (with the help of UNMIK and EULEX) governing most of its claimed territory.
  • please feel free to revert this split pending a more solid consensus on how to tackle this. Just be sure that if the split is reverted, any Albanian patriot complaining about the Republic of China article is told to try and seek consensus for this split or go away. --dab (𒁳) 09:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Two quick points. I explained in my last edit why state does not fit the bill; it implies country anyway and misleads as to what type of country it is. I know that state is a general term but the first sentence is far too early to generalise. So I went one step further and replaced the word with republic, I don't see how this should offend Albanians. Meanwhile any non-Albanians who oppose "republic" should also consider the implications of reverting back to "state". Secondly, there are advantages of starting a new article on the independent body. It is not against WP to split articles. We already have Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1990–1999) and Republic of Kosova (1990-2000) which pertain to the very same region at the same time. An article is about a subject, and the subjects here are separate entities; any entity entire of itself warrants an article if there is enough to write about. After all, the PROC and the ROC both claim to be the legal authorities of a single vast territory. Both have individual articles. Land and people are not everything! Evlekis (talk) 09:30, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Uhm, this sounds as if the whole dispute hinges on a single phrase in the definition statement in the lead, again? Good lord, I'm strongly opposed to splitting articles just because people can't agree on a lead sentence. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Me too, I'm in agreement with you. It is a waste of internet space splitting articles for the sake of a few words. The problem here is that the supporters of Kosovan independence wish to use their new article to talk about the country itself, its goals, its achievements, its superb employment, its fantastic human rights, its image of the way forward in Balkan democracy, its tourism and its spectacular seaside resorts (joking here) and its life outside of the ugly dispute! Seriously, that is not the key problem with splitting the article. The trouble here - unlike with the two Kosovo articles for 1990-1999 - is that it is a partial split. If a page exists to reflect an independent Kosovo, its counterpart would not so much be this page but rather a third article to explain the region according to its "authority in exile" Belgrade: how Belgrade recognises it as an integral part of Serbia, how the voting in the region has been (among its Serbs) in Belgrade-initiated elections, how things are where it still has influence (if not power) and the like. Such a creation would be zealous to say the least! This article is treated as a Kosovo in general, the land, the people and some history whilst Republic of Kosovo focuses on the "state" itself. So I don't know where I stand on this one either. Evlekis (talk) 11:16, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no way that Republic of Kosovo should become a place for Albanian POV to vent its spleen. It should become, if it is given time, nothing more than the five Ws of the Republic of Kosovo, the entity (or state or whatever you want to call it) that has embassies, relations with other countries, and so on: the one that acts as if it has legitimacy. It would be interesting to see if anyone is willing to take the effort to do this, but of course, with deletion looming that isn't likely to happen. As Evlekis said, "This article is treated as a Kosovo in general, the land, the people and some history whilst Republic of Kosovo focuses on the "state" itself" and I too don't know where I stand on this. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 15:39, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I support the Republic of Kosova page. _LOVE_ SILENT_KILLER/SPAIN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.187.143.184 (talk) 21:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

What happened to WP:CFORK? Ijanderson (talk) 12:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:CFORK has nothing to do with it, just like Republic of China is not a "content fork" of China. Of course, the content of Republic of Kosovo will need to remain strictly focused on the 2008 Republic proper. --dab (𒁳) 14:25, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations, you've opened up a Pandora's box. If this Republic of Kosovo page is not deleted, I can't see a single reason why we shouldn't create Province of Kosovo and you know what? Then we'll finally have two sides writing completely diferent stuff in their own articles and there goes Misplaced Pages's policy of consensus building. Great. Nice work. --Cinéma C 17:34, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

FORKing is bad. This split just gives each side the chance to fuck up MORE articles, and should be reversed immediately. ThuranX (talk) 18:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Cinema, Do not revert without consensus, Evklakis, brutaldelux, Tone, clearly asked to keep it as a disputed state in the Balkans until we have a clear consensus. These changes w/o consensus are a clear violation of policy. Serbia does not recognize Kosovo, however, Serbia does not control an inch of Kosovo. Serbia is establishing a clear border and customs control with Kosovo just like it has with other states like Bulgaria, Macedonia, Montenegro, Croatia, etc. Kosovo is a sovereign state, disputed by Serbia, however, Serbia does not control an inch of Kosovo. Again, Cinema, Brutaldelux, Dbachman, violated the Misplaced Pages POV policy, attempting to dominate with Serbian POV. Reported to admins.--SpanishBoy2006 22:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow. Not only do you ignore everyone else here, you try to get them in trouble. I think that it may be time to seek out a topic ban for you. ThuranX (talk) 23:07, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

One small thing Spanish amigo, you said that Serbia is establishing a clear border and customs control with Kosovo etc and that is true. In fact, these transit checks were installed many years before Kosovo's declaration, I'd say as far back as the handover to the UN in 1999 but I don't know exactly what level of FRY authority was present in the buffer zone in its initial stages. I know that once the Conflict in Southern Serbia ended in 2001, the buffer zone was lifted. So no later than 2001 did you have checks on the Central Serbian side of the boundry. Montenegro did something similar with Serbia. Once their current leader Milo Đukanović - who turned against the Belgrade authorities - emerged victorious in Montenegrin elections, he reversed the direction of Montenegro and sought independence. From the beginning of the campaign in 1996, Montenegro grew defiant towards the FRY as it established its own borders to monitor all activity coming from Serbia. Now at that time, it meant that Montenegro had sealed its border with Kosovo. This was years before Kosovo could reciprocate; after all, Montenegro adjoins Kosovo. Even so, the rest of Serbia - whether nominally within a federation or independent - is compelled to establish these checkpoints; it doesn't have a choice. Serbia's governmental position in both the FRY and Serbia and Montenegro did not wish to break ties with Montenegro. But as Montenegro took the liberty of managing its own immigration and transit movement, it would have been foolish of Serbia to ignore this. For instance, I myself needed a visa to officially enter FRY whilst it existed (I hold a UK passport). Montenegro was deliberately acting in defiance of this order, and I had been able to enter Montenegro with just a plain passport untouched by FRY embassy staff; so if Serbia did not install checkpoints, one only needed to go to Montenegro to gain nice free easy access to Serbia! Serbia accepts the provisions of 1244 which devolves all authority over Kosovo to the UN; as such, Belgrade has not on one occasion after 1999 attempted to implement its policy in Kosovo. To that end, it is within Serbia's own interest to supervise all activity along transit points. This is regardless of whether it considers the onward territory to form a part of its legal integrity. Evlekis (talk) 00:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

We are talking about a clear border and customs policy being implemented in due course as Serbia, not Kosovo, receives visa liberalizations. Serbia has agreed to establish clear border and customs just like it does with FYR Macedonia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Montengro, Croatia, etc. It's not what Serbia considers, it's what states border and custom controls means. Facts and interpretation are two different things. Kosovo is a fledgling state, sovereign and independent, Serbia disputes in interpretation, but defacto recognizes Kosovo, and that's a fact.(SpanishBoy2006)

What do you mean but defacto recognizes Kosovo. Does Serbia recognise it or not? If it defacto recognises it, it will open an embassy in Priština and receive an ambassador in Belgrade. An embassy with the Kosovan flag will fly above the consulate in Belgrade. Serbia will publish maps marking Kosovo, or to be more precise, it will sketch itself as the territory minus Kosovo, and Kosovo will be removed from news bulletins' weather reports. A new constitution will be written revising the internal structure of Serbia and gone will be the reference to Central Serbia. It will turn its back on ethnic Serbs in Kosovo on the pretext that they are subjects of a foreign land. It will participate in sporting activity against a Kosovan team. It will display roadsigns leading to Kosovan settlements with a Kosovan domain symbol as it does with Hungary, Romania etc. And last of all, it will not recognise Kosovo formally because that is what it means to de jure establish diplomatic relations. Does this make sense or does it sound stupid? I'll leave that one to you, but whatever you decide: that is how a Serbian de-facto recognition of Kosovo would appear. Serbia does not refer to the Central Serbia/Kosovo boundry as a border. It considers the isolated territory its sovereignty bound by 1244. What you call a border, everyone else calls a transit/checkpoint. The installments are the same absolutely everywhere, there is no alternative arrangement. They comprise two sections: Passport Control, supervised by state police; Customs, which deals with luggage and goods (more significant when entering than leaving). How can Serbia possibly abandon this when one has been established against its will by authorities controlling a section of what it deems to be its own land? Do you think Croatia didn't establish control checks along borders of the former RSK? Do you think that it allowed anyone to enter Croatia freely from the RSK because "RSK authorities will have already checked the documentation of the individual once already when entering RSK?" and all just because Croatia believed the lands to be a part of their territorial integrity? The same applied with Bosnia for the 1992-95 period. It didn't mean that Bosnia de-facto recognised the Serb republic, it didn't even accept the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosnoa and that didn't even declare itself independent!!! Evlekis (talk) 20:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

look, if you object to the split, why don't you revert it already? We have now seen what the split would look like, but if it is reverted, we are back to the "consensus" version we had so far, prior to the split. Since this topic will come up again and again, we will at least have the diffs demonstrating what the split version would look like. --dab (𒁳) 13:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, this discussion about a split occured a while back, maybe over a year ago, and I believe the consensus was that such a split would be a violation of WP:FORK. I also think FP's point that Kosovo is a single geographical entity makes a lot of sense, and that the split doesn't. --Athenean (talk) 18:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Evlekis..you are joking. Again with interpretations, not facts. Serbia is establishing full border, customs with Kosovo and the deadline is by the end of October if it wants visa liberalization. Your comparison of something that does not exist, and has no whatsoever link to Kosovo is just push for your own POV. Your statement is interpretation lacking facts. Serbia defacto recognizes Kosovo. Serbia tacitly recognizes Kosovo, said the former prime minister of Serbia, Vojislav Kostunica. From the horses mouth. Statements and facts are different.SpanishBoy2006 03:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I am not joking. I am not POV pushing either, I was not suggesting a change on the article, just correcting your erroneous statements. There is no such thing as "de facto recognition": one state either recognises another, or it doesn't. Travellers from Kosovo to Central Serbia have not been able to travel into Serbia without passing Serbian police and customs since they withdrew from Kosovo. During the time of Slobodan Milošević when FRY policy was wholly in defiance of the ICTY, what force existed to ensure "KFOR agents" did not try to sneak into the rest of Serbia to "arrest" and "smuggle back into Kosovo" indictees? Before the signing of the Kumanovo Treaty, NATO demanded that they be free to roam Serbia and Montenegro, armed, and with no subordination to FRY authorities. This was something they surrendered before FRY officials provided signatures. What force existed to ensure that this would not be in breach? They may now be building some fancy buildings but Serbia does not de facto recognise an independent Kosovo. You'll know when it does when you see a Kosovan embassy in Belgrade. Serbia de jure recognises Resolution 1244 which devolves power in Kosovo to UMNIK whilst the region nominally forms a part of Serbia. It is by the title of UNMIK that Kosovo joined CEFTA as a partner of Serbia, not as Kosovo. So the relationship between the two entities is not a token of Serbian recognition of Kosovo. Evlekis (talk) 21:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The source you provided has an effect quotation on the introductory paragraph, which is an infinity away from your claim of Serbia recognising Kosovo. The rest of the article says nothing of the sort. If B92 is such a trusted source, then perhaps you would like to examine these column inches, and read very carefully what Đelić and Svilanović say. They actually address the lethal area of recognition here. Evlekis (talk) 21:50, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Locking the page

Good to see administrators protected the page from disruptive edits. Bad to see that Kosovo is now described as a "disputed republic". This is against the consensus, change it back to "disputed territory". --Cinéma C 18:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Either way, no one has so far noticed that the correct wording should be "a ...(insert preferred word) whose independence is disputed". We should clearly state what the dispute is about, and I'm not talking about editor's disputes. Brutaldeluxe (talk) 18:40, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Sure that's more important, but so is our consensus. --Cinéma C 19:23, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

m:The Wrong Version. Prodego 19:24, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The page should be reverted back to a couple of days ago Ijanderson (talk) 19:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Prodego, what are you trying to do here? This is not my personal opinion, I'm talking about Misplaced Pages consensus. --Cinéma C 01:56, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Agree, roll it back to at least before the Sinbad Barron/Spanishboy edits (who ignored consensus and changed Kosovar place names at will). Brutaldeluxe (talk) 21:41, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes back to the original status quo Ijanderson (talk) 23:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

When pages are protected, the administrator who does so simply locks the page, without regard to which version is on it. Except in the case of simple vandalism or libelous content, a protected page will not be reverted. Being right or wrong has no bearing on this, since people differ on what is right and wrong. J.delanoy_adds 23:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Cinema C, I think you might want to take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Kosovo&diff=303775694&oldid=303711264, and stop crying out for the consensus that has been reached because you don't care at all about it, trying to push your own POV.--84.22.62.66 (talk) 01:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

There was a clear consensus that Kosovo is a sovereign state but disputed, until Cinema changes things without consensus, without discussing anything.SpanishBoy2006 02:57, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

No, the clear consensus was the wording "disputed region". That has been the consensus for over a year now. The solution is not to lock the page, but topic-banning disruptive POV-pushers such as you. The current "disputed republic" is ridiculous and shows what happens when people with an agenda are allowed to edit. --Athenean (talk) 17:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm with Athenean. It is of no relevance for Misplaced Pages what is right or what is wrong. Only thing relevant is that there is consenus about some statement and that that statement is verifiable. The consensus was "disupted region". Until tides change that should remain, and any attempt to change what was reached through many many pages of conversation and hard work from all people involved and administrators to me is no more than a vandal and POV pusher. Let's try to be cooperative here. "Disupted region" is something that is correct, verifiable and is not insulting to any side. --RockyMM (talk) 12:42, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

@ Cinéma C Well Kosovo is a disputed Republic, we are hardly going to refer to Kosovo as a disputed Kingdom ;) Ijanderson (talk) 19:09, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm surprised you're using jokes as an argument. Misplaced Pages consensus is that Kosovo is a disputed region, writing "republic" or "province" is leaning towards the Albanian and Serbian sides respectively. --Cinéma C 03:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, this http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Kosovo&diff=303775694&oldid=303711264 clearly tells on which side you are leaning. In the summary you made it look like you were reverting SpanishBoy while in fact you reached your own goal.--kedadi (talk) 04:11, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

@Cinema C, disputed region would be if let's say Albania and Serbia were fighting over it. This is not so. Kosovo has declared independence. "Partially disputed sovereign state" or republic is a factual statement of the situation on the ground. Arianit (talk) 10:05, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

KOSOVO Flag and Coat Of Arms

Kosovo Flag is missing its been there for about 2 years

so admins bring the flag back —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lontech (talk • contribs) 02:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, yes the flag should definitely be on the page. I would propose replacing the UN flag with it. Any objections to either that in particular, or adding it to the page in general? Prodego 02:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Well some admin has to fix what's been done, that is Republic of Kosovo seems to have been split out, but someone blanked it and redirected it back here. So now the info about the country is gone. chandler 02:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Yep. Brutaldeluxe made the change without consensus, he assumes that tacitly we agreed like Cinema who claims consensus while changes without consensus --(SpanishBoy2006 02:54, 28 July 2009 (UTC))

We need to restore the Republic of Kosovo info box which included the Flag and CoA and other information etc Ijanderson (talk) 09:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Since I am relatively unfamiliar with the situation here, I'm not going to make the change as requested at my talk page. However, I am adding an {{editprotected}} tag to the section to draw the attention of other administrators, since there appears to be agreement that the flag and coat of arms should appear somewhere (and in some form) on the page. --Philosopher  18:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy to make the edit, but I need a more specific request. Which image exactly? Or which version should be restored? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

In all its glory, the requested change is template {{Republic of Kosovo}}, I would like to note that part of the dispute stems from the fact that some users do not recognise the Republic of Kosovo (and the fact that its neighbouring countries do recognise it), and therefore are opposed to the existance of the template itself and al that follows. So there you go, nice template but nowhere for it to be, since the Republic of Kosovo does not exist. Brutaldeluxe 19:37, 28 July 2009

restore to this one http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Kosovo&oldid=303915021 Facts are Facts there should be no discussion about facts cause they are facts. check CIA factbook --Lontech (talk) 01:51, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Are they the same facts that led you to modify my edit so as to make it conform to your agenda, Lontech? Brutal Deluxe (talk) 02:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

sorry if i deleted only your last word but as you can see it there again also there was no name at that post

FACT is the sun we see it everyday u cant say sun dont exist unless you are blind--Lontech (talk) 02:43, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Unblock Request

Now I think everyone has calmed down. The heat has worn off. I Believe it is time to unblock this page. I think Spanishboy2006's and Cinéma C's POV-ness has ended too and thus we can get back to normal. Who agrees? Ijanderson (talk) 11:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree.--SpanishBoy2006 11:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

You're being disruptive an uncooperative for entire time you have edited this article. You should not be editing Misplaced Pages until you show that your conduct here Misplaced Pages-worthy.--RockyMM (talk) 12:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

@ Spanishboy: You have posted sources/ new stories on this talk page, but we can't even do anything with them because you won't allow the page to be unblocked. So why bother posting them in the first place? Ijanderson (talk) 18:35, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? How in the world do I have POV-ness? I'd be POV pushing if I started asking for "disputed province" or "disputed republic" in the lead. You tell me Kosovo is a Republic and then accuse me of POV pushing? Please.. don't play these games. We're trying to make an encyclopedia here. --Cinéma C 03:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, you are not asking for "disputed province" or "disputed republic", but is this NPOV?--kedadi (talk) 04:16, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

No it's not. It's neither POV nor NPOV but does not push an opinion of any kind at all. The term suggests that the territory is ruled from within whilst to leave it out implies that the dispute is based on who exactly is running it. As the Spanish Boy likes to say wherever he can "Serbia doesn't control an inch of Kosovo!".

Evlekis (talk) 16:00, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Then neither is "disputed republic" POV pushing, as it is just suggesting that it is a republic (which it is, I think that we all agree on this) but is being disputed by Serbia. Regarding "Serbia doesn't control an inch of Kosovo!", I'm afraid but that's true.--kedadi (talk) 17:44, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

"suggesting that it is a republic (which it is, I think that we all agree on this" - No, we do not agree. What are you going to do now? Change the mind of the majority of the countries in the world who do not recognize Kosovo as a republic all by yourself? How do you not see that what you're claiming is the same as if someone claimed Kosovo to be a province (which it, actually, according to UNSCR 1244, is) but is disputed by the Albanian majority and a minority of UN member states. Can't you see how one-sided that is? --Cinéma C 20:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

"disputed republic" is first of all nonsense. Does that mean that it is disputed between two countries or that it is disputed that is a republic (as opposed to say, another form of government)? There was a longstanding consensus on this article that "disputed region" was NPOV, until this recent rash of nationalist Albanian editors appeared, and here we are. --Athenean (talk) 20:05, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

First of all, the correct wording should be "a ...(insert preferred word) whose independence is disputed". Let's make clear what the dispute is about. Second, we cannot deny that a "Republic of Kosovo" exists occupying the territory of Kosovo, look at micronations, however ridiculous you might think they are, you cannot deny their existance.Brutal Deluxe (talk) 20:26, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

@Cinema C:

• I mean, it is a Republic with all institutions and it functions like one (this is what I meant on my previous post), but the problem is that it's independence is not fully internationally recognized (a matter of time).
• Not just UNSCR 1244 but also Serbia does say that, but the facts in the terrain say that none of these two things have control over it (UN is present with a minimized staff and has zero control, it has become JAIO or Just Another International Organization present in Kosovo; UNSCR 1244 is completely ignored by Kosovo institutions), while on the other hand the Republic of Kosovo (with the help of EULEX) does have control over the territory of Kosovo.

@Athenean: I don't know if you have ever heard this quote from Charles de Gaulle: Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.. If you were referring to me as a nationalist Albanian editor, then I don't care about other people than mine when it comes to patriotism/nationalism, but in general I must express my love for all those western nations with their beautiful flags (US, UK, 22 nations of EU, etc.). You may see that I'm not active on any article regarding Greece or Serbia.

@Brutaldeluxe: That would be, a country whose independence is disputed, that's what it is in fact.

--kedadi (talk) 21:12, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

@kedadi:

"the problem is that it's independence is not fully internationally recognized"

You can't use such one-sided language like this as an argument on an encyclopedia. There is no "problem", there are only facts.

"the facts in the terrain say that none of these two things have control over it"

In fact, not only does the Kosovo government not have control over 100% of the territory it claims, but even the "independence" over the territories they control is supervised, i.e. not fully independent. The international community still has most of the control over Kosovo.

"UNSCR 1244 is completely ignored by Kosovo institutions"

Just like Kosovo's institutions are completely ignored by Serbia's and the majority of UN states' institutions. What's your point?

"the Republic of Kosovo (with the help of EULEX) does have control over the territory of Kosovo"

It was also explicitly made clear that EULEX will not implement the Ahtisaari plan - independence. EULEX is not helping the "Republic", it is status neutral.

"Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first."

Have you ever heard of quotes on patriotism by George Bernard Shaw ("Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it."), Goethe ("Patriotism ruins history."), Barbara Ehrenreich ("No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots."). Anybody can take quotes, but you can't use that as an argument. What's your point?

"You may see that I'm not active on any article regarding Greece or Serbia."

Well thats really nice. Take it to the user's talk page, it has nothing to do with Kosovo. --Cinéma C 04:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

@Cinema

Wow, take it easy man, not everything was for you and if you would have been following the discussion you would get my point. Let me make it clearer to you.

"The international community still has most of the control over Kosovo."

• Which international community? You mean UN? Did you know that the territory of Kosovo is controlled by the Republic of Kosovo, around 85% of it, and with the help of EULEX the remaining 15%? I don't know if you know it but UN is present with a minimized staff in Kosovo. They don't have not a single thing under their authority anymore, unlike the time before the independence.

"Just like Kosovo's institutions are completely ignored by Serbia's and the majority of UN states' institutions."

• Absolutely irrelevant, as long as the Republic of Kosovo has a defacto control over the territory. It doesn't really matter if Serbia accepts or ignores that fact. That would be as dumb as saying: The Republic of Kosovo ignores Serbia's institutions and claims Serbia's territory to be part of Republic of Kosovo, and you know why?, because Republic of Kosovo has 0% control on Serbia's territory.

"It was also explicitly made clear that EULEX will not implement the Ahtisaari plan - independence. EULEX is not helping the "Republic", it is status neutral."

• Did you know that EULEX came in Kosovo exactly from the Ahtisaari Plan? Maybe you didn't. EULEX is a rule of law mission, it is not a political mission like UNMIK used to be. Sad but true, it is helping Kosovo a lot, with customs on the north, rule of law in general, controlling places where the Republic of Kosovo cannot reach for the moment, and much much more.

--kedadi (talk) 05:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

This arguing can go on forever. I don't know why we speak of rule of law when that if anything is the one element which cannot exist at such a high level. Kosovo declared independence, correct. Serbia and other countries reject it, correct. Kosovo is ruled from within, also correct. Serb majority enclaves are left alone by Kosovo, that too is correct. UNHCR1244 is ineffective, correct. EULEX is neutral, that is "officially" correct. The UN has no control over Kosovo, correct? Perhaps one needs to examine this view. The UN is present. All KFOR/NATO units are UN subjects. Most pre-1999 NATO states bombed Yugoslav authorities into submission in 1999 and established the status quo in Kosovo today. The KLA on the other hand – whilst being fantastic killing machines – needed NATO to act as their airforce to oust Belgrade influence in Kosovo. From 1999-2008, Kosovo permanently needed the presence of international forces to police the provisions of the Kumanovo Treaty within the region. Today, there are no campaigns from any section of Kosovan Albanian society which demands that the international forces leave the region. Suffice it to say, Kosovo's authority is heavily dependent on the international presence, the region feels insecure. So how ridiculous to suggest that the UN has no authority over Kosovo. The UN is purported to exist as an authority over the world. It doesn't have an army as such but as we see atleast once every 10-20 years, a group of nations declare war on an "unfavourable" state, and they do this on a "UN Mandate". The Serbs in the enclaves know that there is nothing that they can do if Priština wishes to expand its influence over 100% of the region. Priština also knows that if the global elite (the so-called "international community") tries to impose a policy contary to a Priština implementation, then it will be the former which prevails. Kosovo cannot be in defiance of the hand that feeds it. As for controlling its institutions, Nagorno-Karabagh also controls its institutions and has done so since 1988 with no threat from any wordly power to remedy this. It doesn't make it a country. And as for 1244 being ignored by Kosovo's authorities, that doesn't change the fact that Serbia continues to recognise the resolution. If a new resolution be drafted tomorrow replacing 1244, as happened in 1908 to accept violations of the Berlin Congress 1878 (allowing Bulgarian independence and Austro-Hungarian sovereignty over Bosnia and Herzegovina), then everything will be fine for Kosovo. However, if this can happen then it would be a travesty of the international legal system, "never mind what we said yesterday, just follow the force of gravity!". However, the fact that neither of these two things have happened and yet the "international community" flaunts 1244, is a shocking indictment of the real international authority (jungle law, the strongest survive) whilst it exposes the UN/"Rule of law" as wholly symbolic, a mask with a civilised appearance for powerful rogues to hide behind. Evlekis (talk) 08:40, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I am impressed. --Cinéma C 19:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Usually that's what sophisms are supposed to do: impress impressionable people. Kosovo CANNOT have an army because of a UN resolution and therefore Kosovo CANNOT defend itself. If UN leaves then Kosovo will it will be possible for Kosovo to have an army and to defend itself against Serbia. If the UN does not allow Kosovo to have an army, that doesn't make Kosovo less of a country. A country can be weaponless, and it's still a country.sulmues (talk) 05:33, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

U people are u blinded or illiterate if CIA say that Kosovo is Republic then it is

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/kv.html

CIA is smarter than u kids and i bet that most of you are underage under 18 thats why i think you should be banned from posting here

kids trying to change the FACTS but fact is fact u cant change it.............. LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/Fact

A fact is a pragmatic truth, a statement that can, at least in theory, be checked and either confirmed or denied. Facts are often contrasted with opinions and beliefs, statements which are held to be true, but are not amenable to pragmatic confirmation or denial.

Fact is sometimes used as synonymous with truth or REALITY

Country name:

Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order. conventional long form: Republic of Kosovo conventional short form: Kosovo local long form: Republika e Kosoves (Republika Kosovo) local short form: Kosova (Kosovo)

other terms, words should be removed immediately LIKE Serbia Constitution etc --Lontech (talk) 03:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Please take your POV pushing elsewhere. --Cinéma C 04:25, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

the fact is that the USA recognizes the RoK's independence. This fact is reported on Misplaced Pages with perfect accuracy. I don't see the problem. --dab (𒁳) 09:07, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Russia,China,Brazil abstain from further participation at ICJ

Russia, China, Brazil and several other states decided to abstain from further participation at ICJ. ..From ICJ website --SpanishBoy2006 11:47, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Serbia doesn't rule out recognition of Kosovo's independence

Serbia FM stated the he does not rule out the recognition of Kosovo's independence by Serbia. From the horses mouth: Asked explicitly if he might recognise Kosovo's independence, perhaps in return for some of its land being returned to Serbia, Mr Jeremic once again refused to rule anything out. "We don't want to exclude any options," he said. "We need to come to the table and see what happens."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8172537.stm --SpanishBoy2006 14:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC) ->

So you've yielded your position slightly I see! From Serbia de facto recognises to Serbia "might" recognise. We'll all find out in due course. In the meantime, can I request that someone who has the permission to edit please remove the link to on the opening paragraph. It was wikified some weeks ago when we experimented with "forking" two parallel entities on different dimensions. Now it is just misleading, it redirects you to the page you are already reading. Thanks. Evlekis (talk) 16:14, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Might I add, Kosovo can not be referred to as a "disputed republic", but a "disputed region" which is Misplaced Pages consensus. Thanks, --Cinéma C 04:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

yes, it is astounding how people can fail in grasping very elementary circumstances simply because they decide they do not WANT to understand them. The situation is crystal clear: Kosovo is a disputed region, and the Republic of Kosovo is a partially-recognized state in dispute over the region. A simple matter of agens vs. patiens.

Fwiiw, it looks like Kosovo's independence will be finalized comparatively soon. If Russia and China lose interest, and Serbia is making conciliatory noises, this probably means that Serbia is hoping to strike a deal, such as chipping off a bit of North Kosovo, in exchange for fully recognizing the seccession. I must say I really look forward to this because it will hopefully mean the end of the childish nonsense we put up on this page since February 2008. --dab (𒁳) 09:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Kosovo is not a disputed region because Serbia does not control an inch of it. Kosovo is a sovereign state, disputed by Serbia. It fulls the whole criteria of a sovereign state. Cinema C has been attempting to push his POV, ignoring and violating the rules of NPOV. There was no consensus on disputed region, but there was a broad consensus on disputed state until Cinema C changed without consensus. Serbia defacto recognizes Kosovo. 1) Border and custom control, invalidity of Serb passports to Kosovo citizens, Jeremic even said himself that Serbia will not rule out recognition of Kosovo if some territory is swapped. It shows that Serbia accepts the reality on the ground, that Kosovo is an international independent and sovereign subjectivity. The reality on the ground is that Kosovo controls its territory, acting as a sovereign body, which fulfills the criteria of a state. Recognitions which are abundant, are only matter of satisfaction, not definition of a state. Moreover, Serbia silently agreed to have Kosovo take over the responsibility to pay its debt World Bank and IMF. That's a recognition of the reality that Kosovo is a sovereign state, which Cinema C refuses to accept. Remember the statement of Serbia President refusing to give up the debt because that means a recognition of the Kosovo's independence according to Serbia point of view. Serbia tacitly recognizes Kosovo, said Serbia's former PM, Vojislav Kostunica. Kosovo is a state. Even adding disputed is not correct anymore because even Serbia does not disputed it but rather wants territories to swap, presevo valley with northern of Kosovo, excluding Mitrovica perhaps. --SpanishBoy2006 09:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

We already have a sentence that clearly emphasizes Serbia's dispute.""]]-- Spanishboy2006 (talk 10:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

thank you for illustrating my point. "Kosovo is a sovereign state, which Cinema C refuses to accept" is priceless. Cinema C is, I take it, heading a bunch of other losers such as China, Russia, Spain, India, Greece, Brazil, and a hobo who hangs out in my neighborhood. --dab (𒁳) 10:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Serbia does not dispute Kosovo's statehood anymore, Serbia FM clearly emphasized on his interview the swapping of territories. It shows that Serbia recognizes Kosovo's independence and sovereignty, but refuses to establish diplomatic relations before swapping territories. --SpanishBoy2006 10:30, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Spanish chico, there you go again with your misguided observations "Serbia defacto recognizes Kosovo". Cinema C has not "changed without concensus", he has worked very hard to present this article as accurately as possible. So, to you, if controlling your territory meets the criteria to classify it as sovereign, then Transdniester must also be a sovereign country because it is completely self-governing and Moldova doesn't control any part of it. And what about Gerogia? South Osettia and Abkhazia declared their independence in 1991 and Georgian troops were even a part of the protection force which policed the provisions of the three-way agreements involving themselves, their breakaway states and the Russian Federation. Did that mean that Georgia "de facto" recognised Abkhazia and South Osettia? Nobody can ignore it when a part of its territory is occupied, or if it falls to home-grown lunatics; when a force is drvien out, it does not mean that it "recognises" the independence of the lost land. Likewise, as time goes by and it realises that this is not likely to change and life has to go on for the sake of its citizens if nothing else - it still does not mean that it "de facto" recognises it. Kosovo's authority may not be disputed, but its status certainly is. Evlekis (talk) 10:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Kosovo is a sovereign state. http://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_sovereign_states --SpanishBoy2006 10:40, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Spanishboy2006 is trolling. I recommend WP:DENY. If this continues, we might consider admin action, but at this point just not feeding him would seem sufficient. --dab (𒁳) 10:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Potential future recognition by Serbia should be definitely added to the article. I don't think anyone disputes this now that Serb FM himself has said it. It should be something like this: "Although Serbia currently does not recognise the independence of Kosovo and considers it a United Nations-governed entity within its sovereign territory, it does not rule out doing so in the future either." Can we agree on this? Arianit (talk) 10:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Mentioning that is fine as long as the source is included. One more point to Spanish Boy, the list on which Kosovo appears as "sovereign" also includes the following: Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, Northern Cyprus, Palestine, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and Somaliland. Evlekis (talk) 10:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Some recently vandalized so to speak. --SpanishBoy2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spanishboy2006 (talk • contribs) 11:14, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

On that I cannot comment. Perhaps "Vandalism" is a strong accusation given that it is at the centre of a major dispute. Nobody called you a vandal for reshaping the opening lines to indicate Kosovo borders the Serbian territory, which makes an obvious point!!! But if the page you gave on sovereign states had been manipulated to represent the POVs on Serbian Kosovo, shouldn't someone have reverted? It looked to me like a suitable spot, alongside partially recognised lands; it even contained a detailed explanation. Evlekis (talk) 11:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

@ elvekis Dont do stupid comparisonsat Osetia and Abkahzia is recognized only by Russia and Nikaragua --Lontech (talk) 13:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

the problem is that wiki is open source and even 8 years old kids can modify articles --Lontech (talk) 13:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Also ISRAEL is not recognized by most of Arab World ( arab countries ) exept Turkey being state doesnt mean all states to regognize you Israel is not disputed that egypt siria lebanon iran and other countries dont regognize ISRAEL

who gives f if serbia recognize kosovo or not or russia . KOSOVO can be state even without those recognitions like ISRAEL —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lontech (talk • contribs) 13:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

You think Turkey is an Arab country? BalkanFever 13:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

LOL arab world = Muslim world (or Islamic world)--Lontech (talk) 13:39, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

ISRAEL is STILL a STATE even its neighbors dont recognize israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/Muslim_world --Lontech (talk) 13:46, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

@Balkanfever depend for example on geographical view ISRAEL is also ARAB Country that in Fact isnt because they are not muslims u cant say ISRAEL is arab country

and no Turkey in geographical view is not Arab country but it is Islamic country Is Israel ARAB country?--Lontech (talk) 14:11, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

There are many Arabs who are non-Muslim. Many non-Arab states in turn are Muslim by faith. I mentioned South Ossetia and Abkhazia as a response to Spanishboy who claimed that a nation is sovereign when it is in control of itself. The number of countries which recognise it is not relevant to Spanishboy's point. And just as you say, who does care if Serbia doesn't recognise Abkhazia either? It can still be a sovereign state according to the "Pro-Kosovo theory of national criteria". Israel does not occupy territory which is unredeemed by another sovereign state. Since Egypt denounced its claim on Gaza, and Jordan on the West Bank, it just leaves Palestine which currently does not exist as a state. Israel's sour relationship with most Muslim countries is for a multitude of other reasons, not a territorial claim by them. Evlekis (talk) 14:17, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Get your facts straight, Egypt and Jordan have diplomatic and economical relations with Israel and so do Tunissia, Morocco, Mauritania and some othe Arab countries, including the palestinian Authority. 77.127.176.28 (talk) 14:53, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

these are facts from wiki :

http://en.wikipedia.org/Foreign_relations_of_Israel

No recognition or diplomatic relations

Israel has no diplomatic relations with 36 countries, 20 of them members of the 22-member Arab League. Some of the countries, with which Israel has no diplomatic relations, accept Israeli passports and acknowledge other Israeli marks of sovereignty; however, most of these countries refuse to recognize the State of Israel at all.

   * Africa: Algeria, Chad, Comoros, Djibouti, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Somalia, Sudan, Tunisia.
   * Americas: Bolivia, Cuba, Venezuela
   * East Asia: (Republic of China) North Korea
   * Middle East: Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, United Arab Emirates.
   * South, Central Asia: Afghanistan ,Bangladesh, Bhutan, Maldives, Pakistan.
   * Southeast Asia: Brunei, Malaysia, Indonesia

some states recognized israel after 30 years of state creation sorry but Tunisia Morocco Muritania are not on the list--Lontech (talk) 19:02, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

City names

Why are cities in Kosovo being called in Serbian language, in the first place?

There is an official regulation on this issue from the UN Special Representative Bernard Kouchner, dating back from July 2000:

• OSCE
• UNMIK Online (Albanian language)
• UNMIK Online (Serbian language)

As you can see, everywhere the name is written in Albanian language in the first place, then followed by the Serbian language. Almost all Kosovo-related articles are biased from this disruptive behavior, where cities and villages are written in the Serbian language in the first place.

I showed three links that document what I've just said. OSCE, UNMIK and also the Constitution of the Republic of Kosovo say the exact very same thing. So I'm making a call to anybody who edits Kosovo-related articles, to be constructive and follow the regulation of writing names in this order: Albanian language, Serbian language.

Lets take for example Gjakova, if you click the link, you will get redirected to Đakovica. That's absolutely POV-ness if writing the title in Serbian language for a city in Kosovo that it's absolute majority of population is Albanian.

Thank you.--kedadi (talk) 15:16, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Read previous discussions regarding this matter that brought us to the consensus we have now. --Cinéma C 19:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

You must be kidding -- the city of Gjakova is a reflection of OPERATION SANU in full effect. Ari d'Kosova (talk) 21:49, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Cinama C making again disruptive editing

Cinema C is again making disrupting editing without consensus, without discussing on the subject.

Kosovo is a state, a sovereign and independent. Not even disputed.

1) Serbia defacto recognizes Kosovo

2) Serbia tacitly recognizes Kosovo

3) Serbia establishes border and custom control with Kosovo

4) Serbia does not control Kosovo, defacto nor dejure

5) Serbia recognizes the international subjectivity of Kosovo as an independent sovereign body.

6) Most Serb media, like Beta and Fonet, clearly use Nis (Naissus) as a southern town.

7) Serbia president needs permission of the Republic of Kosovo to visit

8) Serb leaders are now allowed to enter through customs and borders.

9) Regions are geographic names, if we use region that definitely, Nis, Novi Pazar should be included because they are both part of Kosovo region, not Serbia.

10) Territory is when controls, but the inhabitants refuse to recognize the legitimacy of the ruler. Palestine.

11) Kosovo fulfills all the criteria of a sovereign state, with several UN bodies recognizes it, such as IMF, World Bank and other world institutions.

12) Serbia willing to establish diplomatic relations with Kosovo if some territory is swapped, obviously, Serbia cares about territory, because it already recognizes Kosovo.

13) Invalidity of Serb passports to Kosovar citizens. Not even, Kosovar Serbs can travel to EU. So much, about the dispute.

--SpanishBoy2006 20:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

We all agreed that Kosovo is a disputed state, until Cinema made disruptive changes, without consensus, leading warrants and locking. --SpanishBoy2006 20:42, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Kosovo is not disputed at all because Kosovo was never part of serbia it was part of Yugoslavia but Yugoslavia dont exist anymore

Cinema stop making those edits and start to accept reality--Lontech (talk) 21:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

BAN CINEMA, he never listen to reason!!! Ari d'Kosova (talk) 21:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I also agree that Cinema should be banned from Misplaced Pages. He doesn't read the reasoning behind the necessary changes and never cooperates in a constructive manner sulmues (talk) 01:46, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

MMM. No. Why don't we ban all the Pro-Kosovo extremists above, dogpiling on an editor who regularly works against the POV pushes. I can just about guess where this assault's coming from. ThuranX (talk) 01:52, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, keep guessing. You're saying that mine is POV, I'm saying yours is POV. If for Cinema Scotland (not recognized by any country in the world) is a country and Kosovo (recognized by almost all the western world) is merely a region, then you guys should not be speaking a Western language at all. Actually you should not even speak English, so you can give me the answer in an oriental language.sulmues (talk) 02:03, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

This is not the place to discuss about me. Talk to me directly or report me through the proper channels if you feel that me going against Albanian POV pushing is breaking Misplaced Pages rules. --Cinéma C 02:29, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a standard on wikipedia

for all states that FLAG and Coat of Arms are in TOP the flag have to be in top then the map --Lontech (talk) 21:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

check

http://en.wikipedia.org/United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/France http://en.wikipedia.org/Italy http://en.wikipedia.org/Germany

same standard for flag --Lontech (talk) 21:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Those countries are formally recognized by practically every country in the world. J.delanoy_adds 21:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

LOL check ISRAEL

...--Lontech (talk) 22:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Israel is also recognized by nearly all countries in the world. Kosovo is not recognized by at least two permanent members of the UN Security Council, besides a good number of other countries. J.delanoy_adds 22:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Recognition is a mere satisfaction of the statehood, establishment of security, and active a more an ability to cohabit with with those you desire rather those you need to. In the case of Kosovo, which fulfills the criteria of a state, enjoys its sovereignity in its very definition. Switzerland did not care about what Security of Council of some organization did not join until 2002 really had to say or decide. One of the permanent members, PR China defacto recognizes Kosovo passports, their Vienna and other Embassies issue visas on diplomatic and citizens on the Passport of the Republic of Kosovo. China's liaison office in the Republic of Kosovo, suggests citizens that obtaining visa, they must go to Consulate of PRC Embassy in Vienna, Austria. --SpanishBoy2006 23:29, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

@J.delanoy at Least are three USA, UK, and France that recognized KOSOVO also its only first year for Some of the Yugoslav republics took up to 4 years to get the first recognition Kosovo is very succesfull with recognitions only within a year took about 60 recognition

about 40 states dont recognize ISRAEL LOL is there a LIMIT to put STATES on wikipedia you will put limit for kosovo untill kosovo reaches for example that number LOL

being a state doesnt mean to be recognized by everyone —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lontech (talk • contribs) 00:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

If u dont put flag on top i think this would be PURE discrimination —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lontech (talk • contribs) 00:13, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

So, Kosova or Kosovo isn't a state because UN says so? What if the UN disbands tomorrow? Is UK a STATE, what about Italy, Spain or Mexico? The POV pushers seem to be pushing different "standards" to fit their interests. As a commenter stated Swiss was not a UN member until 1992. China isn't recognized by 21 countries. Taiwan, etc. Again, I thought WP had WP rules & guidelines not those of United Nations. Ari d'Kosova (talk) 00:32, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Check Scotland. It isn't recognized by ANY other country and it still 1) is a COUNTRY in Misplaced Pages; 2) has FLAG and Coat of Arms on TOP. Stop contraddicting Wiki rules at Serbian pleasure. --66.65.213.82 (talk) 01:17, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I changed from "state" to "country". If Scotland is a country, so is Kosovo.sulmues (talk-- 01:20, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is NOT a forum! --Cinéma C 02:26, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

About This Topic

Several events have prompted me to write a summary of what I have realized concerning this article and, more generally, this area of interest.

• Kosovo is not a country just because the Kosovo government claims sovereignty and some other states recognize it. They say that Caligula tried to make his horse, Incitatus, a consul and a priest (), but his horse, of course, was not those things. Still, everybody has the right to claim whatever they want, but that does not make it so. The Kosovo government, despite putting a map of Kosovo on their flag, does not control all of that territory, no matter how much they'd like to. The US and most EU states can declare that the Kosovo government has control over the land of Kosovo, but these are among the same countries that have the real control over the land of Kosovo. The international community has control over Kosovo. Therefore, let's come to the conclusion that the land is disputed.

• Of course you can say that Kosovo is a disputed country. Just like you can say it's a disputed province. In fact, since the majority of the world doesn't consider it a country, it would probably be more justifiable to call it a disputed province. But is there anyone here suggesting that? Are there any Serb nationalists who jump in and demand that Kosovo be called a province, which is how most of the world sees it? No. We only see Albanian nationalists demanding Kosovo be called a country. And this is a cycle that does not end, whenever one group gets tired of demanding and edit warring, another group comes in and continues with the same policies of POV pushing. If they're only purpose on Misplaced Pages is to change the article so that Kosovo is a country, I suggest to them to read the five pillars of Misplaced Pages. Just calm down and think about what this website is - it's a 💕, not a PR firm, or the CIA Factbook. If you call Kosovo a country, that's fine by me, but you have to accept that others don't. Therefore, let's come to the conclusion that the land can not be called a country or a province.

• There was one user before, I can't remember his name, who claimed that Kosovo is not a region. I then replied that a statement like that would be comparable to claiming the Alps weren't a mountain range. Of course Kosovo is a region, a territory, a land, whatever you'd like to call it. This is not about anti-Albanianism, or pro-Serb propaganda, you can't just scream those words whenever you don't get your way. Also, banning me won't solve your problem, as the consensus is still there, with or without myself. I personally have very good relations with Albanians in my personal life, because I don't call Kosovo a province and they don't call it a country when we're around each other and therefore everything is fine. Let's keep it that way on Misplaced Pages too, because the discussion about who is right can go on forever, so it's pointless to even start it. Therefore, just call Kosovo a region, this is an absolute truth and can not be disputed in any possible way.

I'd also like to leave all those who will automatically reject everything I write with a message. It's perfectly fine to have your own personal opinions on Misplaced Pages and you're free to express them through your user page (even with the help of userboxes) and your user talk page. Whether I personally consider Kosovo a country or province is insignificant - no one cares. And no one cares whether you personally like the first or the second option. No one cares how awesome super cool your sources are that claim Kosovo to be a country, because there are always gonna be tons of sources that will claim otherwise, so don't turn a blind eye to the sources that don't agree with your POV and accept that the discussion will only continue going nowhere fast if it continues this way. Sure, hate me, report me, accuse me of being a Serb nationalist (even though I'm not even a Serb), but look inside yourselves first and think if you have been fair to this website and to all the users who are trying to contribute in a constructive way, but can't because there are always those who would be more than happy if Misplaced Pages was broadcasting only their views on the world. If you're dreaming about this, I'll leave you with the words of Lord Owen: "Don't, don't, don't live under this dream Don't dream dreams". --Cinéma C 06:39, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd rather call it a territory. Geographic regions include the Alps, the Sahara, the Andes... all of which are politically controlled by multiple entities. Territory, however, connotes ownership and control of a delineated geographic locale; such is the case for Kosovo. It has clearly defined boundaries, but there is a fight for who controls the land within that border. Disputed Territory is far more accurate. ThuranX (talk) 06:57, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Sure, I'm fine with that :) --Cinéma C 06:58, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I also welcome the suggestion by ThuranX, "territory" clearly defines the place in question with clear borders. Evlekis (talk) 15:36, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Kosovo, internationally was never part of Serbia

A fragment from Noel Malcolm book, A short history of Kosovo, Page 264-266

When Kosovo was conquered in 1912-12, Serbia was operating under its constitution of 1903. Article Four of that constitution clearly states that no change to the frontiers of Serbia can be valid unless it has been agreed by the Grand National Assembly - not the 'Ordinary Assembly' or parliament, but a special enlarged assembly summoned to deal with constitutional matters. No such Grand National Assembly was ever convened to discuss or ratify the extension of Serbia's borders to include Kosovo and Macedonia (1). Some might wish to argue that, the correct procedures were not followed so far as Serbia's internal constitution requirements were concerned. But the strange truth is that Kosovo was not legally incorporated into Serbia by the standards of the international law either.

When territory passes from one state to another by conquest in wartime, the transfer has to be recognized by a treaty between the two belligerents after the war. Such a treaty, the London Treaty of 1913, was drawn up between the Balkans allies (Serbia included) and the Ottoman state at the end of the war between them; but it was never ratified by Serbia, and therefore had no legal force where the new Serbian territories were concerned. Another treaty, the Treaty of Bucharest of 1913, was signed at the end of the Second Balkan War in that year ( a war which broke out among the victorious Balkan allies, pitting Bulgaria against the rest); this treaty did contain statements about territorial changes, at least in Macedonia, and it was both signed and ratified. But the Ottoman state was not a party to it; so its statements about recently conquered ex-Ottoman territory could not legally validate that conquest itself. In March 1914 Serbia and the Ottoman state drew up a new treaty, the Treaty of Istanbul, which said they would regard the non-ratified Treaty of London as ratified in those matters which concerned them. Unfortunately, this treaty could not do the trick because itself was never ratified, being overtaken by the declaration of war between the two states in October 1914. And the problem is not directly solved by later treaties between Yugoslavia and Turkey, such as the Treaty of Sevres of 1920, which became null and void, or the Treaty of Ankara of 1925, which, although it involved the mutual recognition of the two states, made no specific mention of the territories taken from the one by the other in 1912-13 (2).

Only in a rather roundabout and pragmatic way could a case for the new political ownership of Kosovo be made in legal theory. Both Yugoslavia and Turkey joined the League of Nations, and were committed under the Article Ten of the League of Nations Pact to guaranteeing each other's territorial integrity. This in itself, strictly speaking, would not prove anything, since the territorial integrity referred to was a matter of those territories that were legally possessed: if a state was illegally occupying some sort of another country when it joined the League, no other states would be thereby obliged to defend that illegal occupation. But if this point about the League of Nations Pact is combined with the pragmatic observation that Turkey did behave as if it regarded those conquered territories as belonging to Yugoslavia - non only did it lodge no formal objections, for example, but it did eventually opened a consulate in Skopje - then some kind of legal case can be made, and extend on the same basis, perhaps to the Treaty of Ankara of 1925. One point, however, it is quite clear. This legal case concerns Turkey's recognition that Kosovo was part, not of Serbia, but of Yugoslavia, the state which joined the League of Nations and signed the Treaty of Ankara.

Similarly, the Albanians in Kosovo had not become Serbian citizens, but they did eventually become Yugoslav ones. In fact the first law to regulate their citizenship was the Yugoslav Nationality Law of 1928, which did not claim that it was confirming some already existing national status, but clearly said that it was creating that status for the first time: the Albanians who lived in Kosovo between 1913 and the establishment of Yugoslavia in 1918 were described ( in paragraph 4 section 55 of the law) as 'the non-Slavs who have become nations of the Kingdom by virtue of the second paragraph of this section.'(3)

Bibliography: 1) For the 1903 text see Darest de la Chavanne, Les Constitutions, vol. p. 260 2) On all these points see Pop-Kosic, Etude juridique, pp.2304, 88-90. 3) Ibid., pp.105-15 --SpanishBoy2006 10:59, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Malcolm has his opinions and he is entitled to them. First of all, his reference to "conquest" is 100% subjective. He uses it as an antonym for "liberate" where-as the two terms are not direct opposites. He rejects the term "liberate" because he claims that Serbs said that they made up a maximum of 25% of Kosovo. Apart from there being no accurate census information for the time, the Kosovo of then was significantly larger than now and given that Albanians do not form a majority within that wider region today, how can Malcolm prove they formed a majority then? Kosovo ran from the north of the Sandžak of Novi Pazar to sections of eastern Macedonia. In so far as international law existed then, if there were any regulations which dealt specifically with "conquest" - as a legal term - then Malcolm would have to prove that the actions of Serbia were an "act of Conquest" first. Secondly, the act would have had to be deemed as conquest by bodies acting as international powers. Unless they questioned the events and consulted codified literature to prescribe a course of action on how now to deal with the scenario (ie. Serbs were a minority, Albanians were a majority, this is conquest, so would Serbs please withdraw from Kosovo and allow Ottomans to resume administration) or to be more precise (Serbs, you are a minority within the territory which our crystal ball tells us will outline Kosovo in 34 years time {1946} so would you please withdraw and allow the Ottomans who conquered the land some centuries back to resume control over the region where they too are a minority?). This neatly leads me to my third point, if anyone were to stage an outcry based on Malcolm's so-called "Laws of Conquest", shouldn't that have been the Ottomans? If the Great Powers were overlooking a legal issue, then it should have been the Ottomans to claim, "this is our land, they are gaining it by conquest", but they didn't. Perhaps they remembered how they originally came to rule it. But the final word against Malcolm's claim of "conquest" is that - so subjective is the term that it is not even universally accepted. If the term can be used pejoratively, it stands to reason that it is wholly relative and subject to opinion. As such, when have the Serbs ever referred to that period as a "conquest"? But surely if it is as clear cut as shill and quasi-historian Noel Malcolm claims then there could be no dispute over the term "conquest", though the term "conquest of Kosovo" is never used by non-Albanian sympathisers. And this is only on the grounds that "conquest" bore certain legal characteristics which were admitted by all parties. Malcolm's point was that the victorious party had to win a war to obtain the new territories against an internationally recognised country on its own soil. But he realises that to say this, Serbia would be in league with all other countries. But by leaving out that "war = conqeust", he doesn't have to say that Albania, Bulgaria, Greece, Romania, Montenegro, even pre-1913 Serbia, and half of the world's nations are "conquered lands". This leaves one final point: Serbia's 1903 constitution. So what? Constitutions are nothing more than an ideological framework by which only a single body (ie. the state) is bound. There is no higher court of appeal within that sovereign state for an individual to appeal if he feels that an act of justice against him is "unconstitutional". Apart from the fact that pseudo-historian Neol Malcolm would have known - if he were half as clever as he makes out - that constitutions do not even have to be codified (his own country, the United Kingdom, being a well-known example of a country without a written constitution), his most pathetic and apologetic and may I say, desperate, remark is that Serbia's non-amendment to its constitution meant that its core reason for not being in Serbia is because somehow Serbia disputed it. He is obviously barmy. As for Albanians not becoming Serbian subjects, again we see the Albanian apologist taking things out of context. His argument began with "legal incorporation of land" which is something that only concerns governments: the new power, the old power, and other external powers. Once all ratifications are complete, there is no condition which implies "do this with your people or regocnition will be withdrawn and the former overlord will return". If Noel Malcolm were a real historian, he'd have known that some governments - upon gaining new land with a non-affiliated population - take certain other measures against that group. Some have attempted to eliminate the population by killing as many as possible (see African history in the 19th century), some have expelled their opponent groups or taken part in equal "population transfers" where they receive some of their own from another country; some have taken the liberty of cleansing the identities of the opponent race by dissimilating them. Yet never has their sovereignty over the pronominal lands been raised as a question concerning international law. During the Greek purge of its Slavs opting for a Macedonian identity on lands "fought for against the Ottomans", who argued that "Pelagonia was never incorportared legally into Greece"? I'm afraid Malcolm, whilst highly regarded in some quarters, is a man whose opinions carry no international weight.

His entire argument is based on the venture amounting to "conquest" and he tries to present his case by using the language of official conext, as though it is so obvious that nobody could dispute it including the Kingdom of Serbia. According to him, everyone - Serbia, the Ottoman Empire itself, the Great Powers - acted unlawfully. He is aware that the Ottomans recognised Kosovo in Serbia from 1914 but still insists that they were the legal authority in the region. But didn't the Ottomans revise their own constitution to outline their new borders? What makes one more internationally binding than the other? As for Malcolm's favourite "it wasn't Serbia, it was Yugolslavia" argument. This is another pathetic attempt by Malcolm to convince the ignorant and naïve that Serbia was subjected to another higher authority, as if to claim that Serbia in 1928 was rather like Serbia's Principality between 1831 and 1867 in the Ottoman Empire. First of all, the so-called "historian" Noel Malcolm should have known than no entity baring the name of Yugoslavia existed before December 1929. Prior to that, it had been the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. Does that amount to the same thing as Ottoman Serbia? Well, Serbs and Serbia were represented in the Corfu declaration of 1917 which helped create the state, and they were also represented in national parliament. They were not however represented in the Porte in Istanbul. Serbia entering the wider Kingdom was also based on opening its internationally recognised border with a hitherto unrecognised entity - the State of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes which encompassed Bosnia & Herzegovina, Croatia and Slovenia (minus some pieces ceded to Italy). Legally this territory was nominally Austria-Hungary until the Treaty of Versailles inaugurated the new state, and other later treaties resolved some border disputes. Either way, nobody was disputing Serbia's inclusion of Novi Pazar and Skopje which were previously Kosovan in Ottoman administration. In addition, the Kingdom was ruled by the Serbian royal family was even a source of dissidency throughout Croatia and Slovenia (and among Montenegrins, Muslims and Macedonians). This continued even after the state adopted the name of Yugoslavia and into World War II, so the subject of Kosovo being outside of a Serbian entity does not come into question. Serbia included Kosovo in 1913 and it entered the kingdom with the land. The Kosovo of today was first created in 1946 and it was 28 years before it reached its apex and managed to expel internal Serb influence. It never lasted long because Yugoslavia was rump and largely disfunctional from the mid 1980's. This is in bitter contrast to the "Noel Malcolm version of events". He likes to exert that Serb influence over the land ended with the fall of the Empire. Occupation or not, Serbs held it from 1912; he uses "occupation" to try to denounce a legal Serbian claim on the land which, as we have now explored, is not the case; it then went into a Pan-Slavic state of which Serbia including Kosovo was a part, not a subjugated land; after World War II it remained within Serbia in a Communist Yugoslavia where Serbia originally had full control, only to lose it in various stages until 1974. With much of the autonomy reduced from 1990, Kosovo's status forked. The Albanians declared independence and were recognised only by Albania (though presumably Malcolm was symapthetic here), whilst the rest of the world including the countries who helped Kosovan Albanians all recognised the territory to be a part of the FRY. If the claims made by Albanians on Belgrade's actions in the 1990's are true, then the Serbian (not the Albanian) influece was the greater in the 1990's, all be it agressive. Then from 1999 to 2008, the only amendment to FRY (Serbia and Montenegro) was the departure of Montenegro which did not claim Kosovo. So Malcolm is wrong in two of his most cherished theories: that Kosovo has had no continuous Serb influece, and that Serbia has no legal claim on Kosovo. For him to claim today that Kosovo had not been part of Serbia, but legally joined Yugoslavia in 1928 and has an Albanian majority so it should not be claimed by Serbia is no different than to suggest that some of the municipalities near Szeged should not have been a part of Hungary after World War I because they had Serb/Croat majorities and were previously in Austria-Hungary, not Hungary. Evlekis (talk) 14:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

One more thing. All international maps published prior to WWI as well as those later sketched to reflect the period prior to WWI all include the lands of the former Ottoman province in Serbia (apart from what went to 1913-1918 Montenegro, such as Peć). So whilst Malcolm has nothing to prove that Serbia did not have most of Kosovo at the time, just how exactly does he describe the Kosovan territory taken by Serbia to exist between 1913 and 1928? As Ottoman? As some sort of free territory? Just where according to Noel Malcolm were Sjenica and Kumanovo during this time? And what is his evidence apart from his personal observational claim? Evlekis (talk) 15:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Spanishboy2006, we use English names on Misplaced Pages. Just click on your Peja link and see where it sends you, not to the city but to a disambiguation page. The only way to avoid it is to create a pipe and what is the point of that? Why don't you use your "sources" to get the names changed on their articles too? Evlekis (talk) 16:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

1RR for all editors

Per the discretionary sanctions highlighted by WP:ARBMAC, I am hereby placing Kosovo under 1RR sanctions for ALL users editing this article. This means that you are only allowed one revert per week to this article, except in cases of obvious vandalism. In addition, you will be required to discuss any content reversions on the article talk page. If you exceed violate the terms of this sanction, you will be blocked. The duration of these blocks will be determined based on the user's prior history, block log, and the severity of the violation. Note that if I find behavior on the article/article talk page to be disruptive, I will ban users outright from editing this article and/or its talk page. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 17:21, 1 August 2009 (UTC)