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Tendentious discussion at Talk:Speed of light

A bunch of us are (at the least, I am) getting rather annoyed by one editor who makes a series of bizarre claims such as that the speed of light is not defined as 299 792 458 m/s, that the speed of light ceased to be meaningful after the 1983 definition of the BIPM as being exactly 299 792 458 m/s, that the speed of light defined by the BIPM is not the "actual" speed of light but rather some "unrelated" conversion factor between lenghts and time, and so on. For scale, the long talk page you'll see is the result of 9 days of these discussion, which are now simply repetitions of old ones (which are now archived, even if they are 2-3 weeks old at best). This is related, although different, to the recent topic ban of User:David Tombe. Looking for advice (wheter admin action is necessary, I'll leave up to the admins to decide). Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 16:11, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes things around here travel at the Speed of Smell. Anyway, WP:Consensus is key - and article content disputes are rarely actionable 'round here. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:50, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Having encountered him on these pages a few days ago, you certainly have my sympathy. Jehochman told him that he was from that Talk page back on 19 August, so if he continued to edit it after that date he should be sanctioned per WP:ARBPS -- unless a later discussion on that page reversed Jehochman's ruling. (I stopped following the matter a couple of days ago, so I don't know what the situation is with him currently -- beyond the fact he is contributing under borrowed time.) -- llywrch (talk) 19:01, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the complaint concerns Brews ohare (talk · contribs), who seems to be continuing User:David_Tombe's fringe arguments and has made close to a 1000 edits on the talk page over the last 45 days. Abecedare (talk) 03:31, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Abecedare Your assessment of the situation is incorrect. I have pushed absolutely no fringe viewpoints unless you consider NIST BIPM and J Wheeler as radical. In serious discussions like this one, it behooves you to get your facts straight. Brews ohare (talk) 13:57, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Shortly after posting the above, I had a look at the actual discussion, in disbelief that David Thombe would so brazenly ignore that ban -- only to find what Abecedare described: David Thombe had not posted to the thread since Jehochman's page ban, & Headbomb had confused Brews ohare with him. (Or else he knows something about the two that none of the rest of us do; if so, I suggest he share it for the rest of us to evaluate -- or admit his mistake.) On the other hand, these accusations below of a "lynch mob" orchestrated by a Misplaced Pages cabal reminds me of the first corollary to Extreme Unction's first law. -- llywrch (talk) 05:14, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

llywrch: Veiled implications that a sloppy editor's confusion between D Tombe and myself indicates some subtle connection does not reflect well upon you. As for assessing whether there is in fact a lynch mob at work, or at least a bunch of editors that refuse to follow the rules of normal WP discourse, these matters are not settled by cute aphorisms or Aesop's fables, but by looking at the facts. I do not believe a lynch mob is normally considered to be a conspiracy (a feeding frenzy is more like it), so Extreme Unction's first law is not pertinent here. Brews ohare (talk) 13:57, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

So how would you explain his confusion while assuming good faith? If it was a mistake, he should have apologized before now. As for my link above, it was simply a gentle way to let you know that just because a large group of people are opposed to your view, it does not mean there is a lynch mob, either metaphorically or physically. But we are growing weary of your repeated insinuations of its existence. -- llywrch (talk) 20:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The issue here is your behavior, not someone else's. And, call it a lynch mob, or a gang, or a gaggle, or a crowd, there are a bunch of hectoring, haranguing editors that are impolite, make denigrating sneers, and who do not try to address the issues at all. Whether they are in cahoots, or feed off of each other's horrible behavior, the result is the same: no attempt to deal with substantive issues, just more harangue. Brews ohare (talk) 22:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

A proposed lead to speed of light by User:Abtract found here is technically correct and yet conveys all that other editors wish to say. However, under the leadership of Martin Hogbin no attempt is being made to discuss this proposal, but instead Martin Hogbin is calling for a lynch mob to railroad his own incorrect wording into the article. Numerous explanations and reputable sources challenging Martin's wording have been presented and quoted on Talk:Speed of light, and Martin and his colleagues simply refuse to deal with them. Headbomb should have a better understanding than he indicates following a recent (brief) technical exchange with me at Talk:Speed of light concerning a different subsection.

The point for Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents is not this argument over content, but that there is no argument over content. I have repeatedly tried to get some consideration for my opinion that the present wording is contrary to published experts, and provided sources, and no discussion of sources takes place. What happens is hectoring and attempt to impose majority rule (majority of editors, that is). My repeated attempts to get consideration of sourced opinion is being steamrollered by a lynch mob that cannot deal with it. What is needed is enforcement of WP protocol to address published sources, and to avoid repeated hectoring as a method to squelch ideas.

Discussion of the lead proposed by User:Abtract found here should be mandated. The excitement of mob rule should be squelched. Brews ohare (talk) 14:54, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Once again, here we see a malicious allegation in an attempt to get another player sent off the field. Until a few weeks ago, I didn't even know what Brews was arguing about. So I decided to investigate the matter. The first hint I got that Brews was right and that Martin Hogbin was wrong, came when Brews was eager to explain his position to me, whereas Martin refused to discuss the matter with me. Martin clearly didn't want to reveal his agenda. It took a while for me to work out the subtlety of the argument, but I eventually realized that Brews is absolutely right. The 1983 definition of the metre has had a significant impact on physics, and that needs to be elaborated on in the speed of light article. Brews is not pushing any fringe theories. Rather, those who are trying to prevent Brews from clarifying a very delicate point, are actually engaged in trying to hide the history of the subject. It's time that the editors who bring these malicious allegations to AN/I are themselves subjected to closer scrutiny. David Tombe (talk) 19:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

This seems to be another attempt to create an imposed consensus by eliminating the dissent. That isnt what a consensus is about. Frankly, I never would have thought to examine the speed of light article except for the fact that the lynch mob seems to think it is in danger of being overthrown. Then after seeing what they are protecting, I understand the need to squelch any dissention. It is a gigantic mess. So, instead of looking for new people to behead, I suggest that you fellows take a close look at yourselves and get busy fixing the article that at present is a morass of confusion.72.64.63.243 (talk) 21:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

You guys are such experts, let me ask you this: If I were driving my car at the speed of light, and turned on the headlights, would anything happen? Baseball Bugs carrots 14:11, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs: With the lights on, you might see the error of your ways?? Brews ohare (talk) 16:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Aha, so you don't know the answer. I thunk so. :) Baseball Bugs carrots 19:58, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

We can only take action against Brews, if we first have a consensus on the talk page that the discussion on the revant issues are closed and that any further discussions would be reverted on the talk page. If Brews were to start a new discussion that is very similar then we could revert that. If he were to revert that change or keep kicking off new discussions that we would ahve to revert again and again, then we could come here and raise this issue.

But the current situation on the talk page is not like that at all. In fact, other editors are still starting discussions on related issues, see e.g. here Count Iblis (talk) 14:16, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This is not an issue about content, but behavior. After being admonished a couple weeks ago by an uninvolved admin for "a blatant violation" of WP:OWN, Brews ohare has increased his level of tendentious editing and incivility, plus created a content fork of the article outside of consensus or prior discussion. As for myself, who has contributed minimally to the article or discussion page, his opinion is that I am disqualified to contribute to the page. My response to this personal attack is here, as I saw no need to add to the toxic environment at the article talk page. Tim Shuba (talk) 16:45, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Tim Shuba's claims that "Brews ohare has increased his level of tendentious editing and incivility" is unsupported, and his frivolous attitude is well described in his own words, quoted here. Brews ohare (talk) 17:23, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The only people that come running to AN/I to get their opponents blocked from a debate on the talk pages are those who are not confident about their own arguments. It is gross cowardice to try and win an argument by getting the opponents blocked on the basis of empty allegations such as 'incivilities', 'disruption', and of course the all time favourite 'assumption of bad faith'. This thread is yet another case of it. Unfortunately a precedent has already been set that demonstrates that this shameful tactic can be successful. Tim Shuba has now entered the debate, and he has already demonstrated that he knows very little about the topic in question. His major contribution so far has been to delete a paragraph in the history section which deals which the convergence of the directly measured speed of light with the speed of light as determined indirectly from the measured values of the electric and magnetic constants. This was perhaps the most significant fact in the entire article, because it dealt with how James Clerk-Maxwell concluded that light is an electromagnetic wave. That is easily the most important historical landmark in the history of the speed of light, and it has now been deleted by Tim Shuba who is posturing as a poor innocent victim who has only contributed minimally to the article. David Tombe (talk) 19:44, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

• I have upgraded David Tombe's page ban to a topic ban covering anything related to the speed of light article. If there is any further gaming of the rules, disruption, or advocacy of theories about the 1983 redefinition of the meter, blocks should follow. Jehochman 06:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Despite my lack of sympathy for David Tombe, I'd like to point out that this is misdirected. Except for his posts here & on user talk pages he hasn't been contributing to anything related to the speed of light -- & there only because because he can't defend himself unless he mentions it was for his edits to his topics -- for his last 100 edits. Except for a few edits to luminiferous aether, they've all been to articles on Canadian currency. He has been staying away from the topic. And as for editting user talk pages, unless he's been posting to them after being told not to, I can't see how that's become an issue. -- llywrch (talk) 20:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

• • • Jehochman should be censured for this unwarranted act of a topic ban on D Tombe which has absolutely no justification whatsoever. Brews ohare (talk) 21:15, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
      • I don't know if my opinion on this matters. I pointed out here that an editor was violating an ArbCom ruling, & was brushed off with the same reasoning that would allow David Tombe to make these edits on Talk pages. Maybe my ability to reason is defective, maybe I need more sleep, or maybe Misplaced Pages policy is enforced more rigorously for some than for others. -- llywrch (talk) 23:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Brews ohare

• Brews ohare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Speed of light (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Talk:Speed of light (edit | article | history | links | watch | logs)

There are suggestions above that Brews ohare has engaged in tendentious editing at Talk:Speed of light. Can anybody present a selection of diffs to substantiate that claim? Brews ohare, why is your editing any different from David Tombe's? Why would you expect different treatment if you commence editing in the same style? Jehochman 06:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Jehochman, You clearly haven't investigated this issue at all. David Tombe (talk) 10:13, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't doubt that Brews ohare is in good faith, that he (like Tombe) believes that what he is saying is correct. However, he keeps repeating the same argument over and over on Talk:Speed of light, and it is getting beyond tiresome to keep dealing with him, although I just made another attempt here. I count 16 talk page edits by Brews on 31 August (UTC) which isn't over yet, 32 on 30 August, and 25 on 29 August. He edited the talk page 578 times in all of August, which puts him in first place by a comfortable margin (Martin Hogbin is in second place with 225). Scanning the Talk page, with all the back and forth, would give you a better idea of the character of his participation than diffs; I added the talk page info as the third item under this section's heading. —Finell (Talk) 18:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I warned Brews ohare about his behaviour here: responses can be seen in this talk page section. Physchim62 (talk) 20:00, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I am surprised you wish to advertise your attachment to me of sentences you have fabricated all by yourself. Very sloppy, at best, actionable at worst. Brews ohare (talk) 21:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

His comment about your username was uncalled for. -- llywrch (talk) 20:09, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, right. Fabrication of fake evidence is more acceptable. Brews ohare (talk) 21:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I wonder why I am singled out as "keeps repeating the same argument over and over", instead of those that respond over and over (in effect, not their exact words) "We don't have to agree with sources Wheeler; Jespersen;Sydenham; we don't have to support OUR views; we are RIGHT."? I have written a carefully sourced presentation of my views in the subsection of speed of light - Speed of light by definition - which has not been accused of being "crackpot science" or "fringe viewpoint" (and various other complimentary terms) even though it proposes exactly the same viewpoint contested. This group of editors out for blood is interested only in getting a particular wording for the lead, come what may, whatever its merits. I have explained sufficiently to them that their proposed lead is poorly conceived, and very readily understood to contradict the subsection Speed of light by definition. These editors don't care about that.

As far as I am concerned, these editors are free to mangle the introduction as they wish. I will not address this subject on my own initiative any longer. If I am asked about it however, I will state why I don't like it. That is not "pollution of the Talk page" (another complimentary term), it is just being polite. Brews ohare (talk) 20:58, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Well Brews' is quite welcome to take a voluntary wikibreak from Speed of light whenever he/she likes.

I hardly need to look through thousands of contributions: after all, Brews has made more than 500 contributions to Talk:Speed of light in the last month . It is sufficiant to look at the arguments that he/she makes at each occasion. The proposed lead is not in contradiction with the section on "Speed of light by definition"; Jesperson is in favour of fixing measurement units to fundamental physical phenomena, just after the passage that Brews decides to quote; "This group of editors out for blood is interested only in getting a particular wording for the lead" is hardly the case, given the length and depth of the discussions.

Brews' editing statistics alone support the case of contentious editing; anyone who wishes to look further (brave as they would be) need only look at the pages to which this editor has attached his/her attention. Physchim62 (talk) 21:40, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

And thank you so much Physchim62 for your apologies regarding fabrication of evidence. Your theory that statistics can demonstrate contentious editing is pure nonsense, and your reading of Jespersen is illiterate. Brews ohare (talk) 22:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Erm, 583 edits by Brews to Talk:Speed of light during the months of August 2009… 428 edits by Brews to Talk:Speed of light 15–31 July 2009… It's interesting that I have to go back from 15 July to June 10 to find Brews' previous comment (the last of 37 comments he/she made on the page in just over two days). Anyone else wishing to contribute to these pages must read through tens if not hundreds of kilobytes of Brews' comments (often very repetitive, but you can't know until you've read them) before then can hope to add to the discussion. This manner of editing is obviously not constructive, it is simply spamming, the Misplaced Pages equivalent of a filibuster.

I said that I found the gap before 15 July in Brews' comments quite interesting: what happend on 14 July? This complaint was raised at WP:AN/I, concerning a separate article but similar behaviour (I quote: "The talk page sometimes sees 100 edits in a day, from only three or four users!") and also concerning Brews ohare. The gain for the editors at Talk:Centrifugal force seems to have been the loss for those interested in Talk:Speed of light!

I think it is time to call time on Brews' disruptive editing. If it can't be done here, I shall take the matter to a forum where it can be done, and I shall not be so indulgent as to limit my request to articles related to the speed of light. Physchim62 (talk) 23:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you'd care to present a little more than the number of edits as evidence of my causing trouble? Please don't invent them. Brews ohare (talk) 00:08, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The number of edits *are* evidence of causing trouble ... not automatically actionable, but the article talk page is clearly being subjected to unusually high activity from a small set of users. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

So I should not correct grammatical errors, punctuation or add second thoughts to a response because that increases my count? I should limit myself to one edit a day, and respond to all and sundry in a listed sequence within one edit. That would fix things, eh? OK, if that works for you. Brews ohare (talk) 03:53, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

More comments from Headbomb

Ilywrch: First, I did not confuse Brews Ohare and David Tombe, as you claimed. In fact, I specifically mentioned that this was not the same case, see my words: "This is related, although different, to the recent topic ban of User:David Tombe". Please don't put words in my mouth. If you hadn't, a lot less drama would have ensued. I came here looking for advice, not heads to be chopped.
Brews/David: I am not a "Example text", nor a "Example text" and do mind WP:NPA. I'll leave it at that. Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 21:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Then mention the person you are complaining about, not who that person behaves like. Your sloppy writing caused any Wikidrama here, & if didn't understand what you wrote you need to accept at least part of the responsibility for that. And I only responded after it appeared that no one else would offer advice -- so kindly turn down the attitude when my only motivation was trying to help. -- llywrch (talk) 23:16, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I didn't mentioned Brews because I wanted a neutral look at what was going on. I take no responsibility for people reading something else than what I actually wrote. There's no need for personnal attacks, so please refrain from making them. Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 01:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Headbomb - Perhaps you will take responsibility for removal of sourced material composed at some labor by me without any related comment on the Talk page, and only the uncivil one-line edit summary "This does not belong here, or anywhere, for what matters." ?? Is that how things are best done? Brews ohare (talk) 03:26, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes. The material is simply there to push your POV that a wavelength-based definition of a meter is superior than the fixed value definition. Stating that this does not belong in the speed of light, or anywhere for what matter, hardly consists of incivility. Headbomb {_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 16:56, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Headbomb: I do not have and never have expressed the POV that a wavelength-based definition of a meter is superior to the fixed value definition. Please re-read my remarks. What was said was the the pre-1983 definition was an example of a definition that allowed the measurement of the physical speed of light because the metre was based upon wavelength. The 1983 definition allows more accurate length comparisons, but makes the speed of light an exact conversion factor beyond reach of measurement. Your interpretation of my statements is a non sequitor of the first rank; please learn to distinguish between what is said and what you want to believe. You create the impression of deliberate distortion to enable wild accusations.

That out of the way, I propose that you apologize for removal of sourced material composed at some labor by me without any related comment on the Talk page, and making the uncivil one-line edit summary "This does not belong here, or anywhere, for what matters." ?? Brews ohare (talk) 18:05, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Headbomb, If you wanted a neutral look to your complaint, then why did you drag my name into it when I haven't edited the speed of light article since 12th August? David Tombe (talk) 11:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit war

• Speed of light (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

It has degenerated into a full blown edit war over the Speed of light article again. This article and its talk page are an object lesson in how not to Misplaced Pages. —Finell (Talk) 01:58, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no edit war: there is a simple hijacking of the page by an unruly mob that does not use the Talk page, removes sourced material without comment, makes nasty pejorative comments to get the temperature up, and insists upon a narrow stance contrary to sources. Very professional, very understandable, if you are a hit man. I hope this example is useful in getting WP to adopt a process with appointed editors that can eject those that behave this way. Brews ohare (talk) 03:20, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not just referring to you, Brews. The Talk page is very much in use, but not in productive use. The same people who are arguing about everything on the Talk page are reverting each other's article edits and substituting their own singular visions without any semblance of consensus at to many issues. That is what I understand to be an edit war. No one has hijacked the page any more than anyone else; it's a free-for-all. One issue on which there is broad consensus, though, is that your contributions to the article and the Talk page are misinformed and are not supported by the sources that you cite over and over, and that your behavior is tendentious. —Finell (Talk) 04:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Finell, The blame for this mess lies squarely at the feet of administrator Jehochman. Administrator Jehochman likes to voice his opposition to 'gaming the system'. But he has gamed the system himself in this case, by imposing sanctions on only one side in the dispute. That has given encouragement to the other side, and hence we are seeing bold warnings coming from the likes of Physchim62. This biased action from administrator Jehochman, which I understand was carried out arbitrarily against the wikipedia rules, has given the likes of Physchim62 an unwarranted sense of righteousness which makes him assume that everybody is going to believe that his side in the dispute is correct, without any doubt about it whatsoever. An impartial administrator attempting to end this edit war would either have dished out sanctions equally on both sides of the dispute, or else protected the page from editing until things cooled down. David Tombe (talk) 11:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I will look into the edit war. It would help if editors on both sides posted diffs as evidence. David Tombe, you are violating your topic ban when you comment on a dispute about speed of light. Next time you do so, you will be blocked. Attacking the administrator who sanctions you is a common tactic, one we understand how to deal with. Please understand that I'm not a robot. There's an actual person behind the screen name. Imaging that you're sitting at a coffee table with the person when you post and try to speak as you would in that situation. It will help you get along better. Jehochman 12:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I may not always agree with what has done Jehochman (see above for an example), but I will support him on this point: you never get positive results by attacking an Administrator. Instead, you will end up like a player who argues with the ref: thrown out of the game. -- llywrch (talk) 20:13, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

That may be in fact what happens; but one hopes that justice can be seen to happen, that decisions are balanced, that appeals are possible, and that decisions will be supported by even handed argument and evidence. Brews ohare (talk) 20:39, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposed solution

I also posted this on the wikiproject physics talk page:

"I think it would be helpful to discuss this with Brews again (he asked me to get involved on my talk page a few days ago, but I was too busy then), but this time with one new rule: Citing from sources is not allowed. So, we have to discuss from first principles and explain everything when challenged from first principles. This removes the freedom to interpret what some source says in some arbitrary way. Because most contributors are experts in physics, this can work. If someone is not an expert and makes mistakes he/she will be disqualified more easily (precisely because you can't hide behind sources)."

So, this means that we can see some very lengthy discussons with Brews again, hopefully more productive this time. Count Iblis (talk) 20:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I have placed an argument at User:Brews ohare/Speed of light (Example). It does have sources, but I believe they can be ignored for the purposes of this discussion, because all that is needed is velocity = distance/time. The key sources are to the original definitions from the BIPM and NIST. If there is a sourced point that requires some first-principles support, that certainly can be looked at. That discussion page can be used to present comments. Brews ohare (talk) 21:44, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you submit speed of light to WP:FAR and get feedback from uninvolved editors how to improve the article? That might be a good path forward. Jehochman 04:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh for crying out loud, how many times to these two have to wind up causing massive WP:TLDR situations all over physics article talk pages and ANI? I can't believe these two are here again, and no doubt will once again jam up this page with so much blah blah blahing that they will once again succeed in paralyzing the conversation. Please guys, don't reply to me as I won't be checking back here and don't want you all over my talk page again, I just thought that needed saying. Beeblebrox (talk) 07:20, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Dear Jehochman: Speed of light in no longer an FA, so it is not eligible for WP:FAR. Furthermore, WP:PEER usually doesn't work well with technical science articles. And regardless of what any outside review concludes, Brews would continue his harangue that everyone else is wrong, or doesn't understand the issues, or is following the party line of the cabal of mainstream physics.

So, to all of you, what is the solution for dealing with someone like Brews ohare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who continues to push his WP:FRINGE POV, though he denies that characterization; who filibusters at Talk:Speed of light, with 506 edits to that talk page since 1 August,; who repeats the same argument again and again, despite near-unanimous consensus that his point is fallacious and that the sources he cites do not support his position; who harangues other editors who disagree with him on their talk pages—including mine at User talk:Dicklyon (under several headings; Brews started 6 discussion topics on Dick's talk page); who refuses to listen to reason and will not respond directly to others' arguments or questions, except by repeating his own thesis; and who will not desist despite overwhelming consensus against his position, which he dismisses on the ground that nobody else understands or has the "courage" to speak out against mainstream physics. And Speed of light is a replay of Brews's and Tombe's performance at Centrifugal force. Count Iblis's proposal to have even more "very lengthy discussions with Brews again" is, in my opinion, π radians from the correct direction. Isn't more than enough enough? Isn't a topic ban in order, as it was for Tombe? —Finell (Talk) 12:21, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Well had someone explained the problem above as directly & succinctly as you just did, Finell, maybe Brews ohare would have been topic banned by now. (I'm just a lowly Admin, so I don't know if I have the power to do it & since I'm involved it might be best if I don't try.) Until someone who has that power & is uninvolved comes along & topic bans him, tell him to stay off of your Talk page. I think you have the right to limit your exposure to an editor who is behaving in that manner -- as does any Wikipedian in good standing. -- llywrch (talk) 18:52, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

My 2c: I am a completely uninvolved editor w.r.t. the page and Physics wikiproject, but did happen to take a look at the discussion at Talk:Speed of light a few days back. In my opinion, Finell's description of the situation is exactly correct. The problem, is not that Brew's take on the speed of light is incorrect, rather it is a idiosyncratic reading (none of the sources he cites, actually support his position) and he is insisting that it be given (undue) weight in the article, including the lede sentence. Here is the gist of the problem as I see it:

Consider an editor insisting that we need to replace all uses of the term velocity on physics pages by "speed in a given direction" - the replacement wouldn't be wrong, just undesirable, non-standard and, ahem, plain crazy. Analogously, Brew has argued ad nauseam that c = 299 792 458 m/s is not the real speed of light in SI units, it is just the "SI conversion factor" and that this viewpoint should underly the writing of the Speed of light article. Again unjustified, non-standard, and plain crazy.

There is a bit more but hopefully you get the idea. IMO a topic ban or (at a minimum) restriction on talk page posts are long overdue. Abecedare (talk) 13:08, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I think so far my proposed soluton is working ok. On the physics project talk page we have had some excellent input. Unfortunately, I still didn't have too much time yesterday (I'll try to give my own input later today). What we need are more first principles arguments like the one by BenRG, TimothyRias etc. see here.

What we do not need are comments like by Dicklyon saying that:

"Arguing from first principles has no place in wikipedia; we're about reliable sources. What's not OK is for Brews to push an interpretation that he has no source for; he has sources for bits and pieces of info, all of which is acceptable content, I think, but not for his idiosyncratic synthesis from those sources."

Because clearly that doesn't work. You don't get to the bottom of the conflict this way, as I explained here. Count Iblis (talk) 14:52, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

His comment was correct. We can't just throw out WP:V because it's "too hard". We're not all physicists and we shouldn't pretend to be. Evil saltine (talk) 12:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

No he was completely wrong. Also, most contributors on that page except he and a few others have studied physics. And it were these people who by arguing on the basis of sources alone caused the discussion to go on and on in circles for a very long time.

WP:V is important for sourcing the final agreed verion of the wiki article. Discussions omn the talk page should not (necessarily) be shot down on the basis of WP:V alone. You have to be able to argue based on the whole body of a physics theory to correctly get to the bottom of what a source really indends to say. Simple quotes can be taken out of context. In the particular case of this discussion, I asked Brews to forget about his source and present his arguments form first principles, so that I can at least get a chance of what he means.

Of course, he can look things up in his source, what I mean is that he cannot say that X is true, because source Y says so. Instead he has to say that X is true and then dexplain why by, perhaps looking up in source Y what the argument is. If Y cites Z, he has to go to Z and in this way reduce the argument to a trivial statment based on the basic theory. So, he has to present the full argument from A to Z on the talk page, right in front of the other editors some of whom are professors, Post-Docs, and Ph.D students. Count Iblis (talk) 14:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree that each source should be considered in context of the entire body of knowledge, as long as multiple sources may be used as part of that. I think Dicklyon was mainly responding to your statement "Citing from sources is not allowed." Evil saltine (talk) 14:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Sarah777

Sarah777 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

I'd like to draw attention to this series of edits. We're used to all kinds of behavior from this editor but I think this goes beyond the pale to WP:Hound. Note the pointy use of edit summaries, , on the intervening edits. Toddst1 (talk) 01:26, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I should just point out that I fixed the formatting error when responding to the question, but in doing so I do not endorse the content (my opinion is that it is somewhat childish, but ignoring it probably serves the project better than taking the bait). Rockpocket 01:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

this seems too trivial to concern us. DGG ( talk ) 03:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes with the recent conflict around this user, what is one more? This is clearly disruptive, clearly a violation of civil, and clearly a continuation of counter-productive behaviour by this user.--Crossmr (talk) 03:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Chillium has left a peaceful POINT warning. I don't know if more is justified - but am not going to take any action on my own beyond a metoo on Chillium's note. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Chillium has left a comment on Sarah777's talkpage, I think that's enough. Sarah should protest peacefully, admins shouldn't take any action against Sarah777. AdjustShift (talk) 17:17, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Ever? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Admins shouldn't take any action against Sarah777 on this issue. I guess anyone with half a brain can understand that. AdjustShift (talk) 14:44, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the nasty comment. Care to retract it? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

My comment wasn't nasty. I've never indicated in this thread or anywhere else that no admin should ever take any action against Sarah777. AdjustShift (talk) 13:24, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

My bad. Apparently I misunderstood I guess anyone with half a brain can understand that. In what way is that not nasty? Please let me know so that the next time someone says that, I'll be sure to understand that it wasn't nasty. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:53, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Your question wasn't appropriate. I've never indicated that no admin should ever take any action against Sarah777. You needlessly asked "Ever?". There was no point in asking such a question. AdjustShift (talk) 02:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

• In looking into this a bit the context seems to be an admin's repeated use of the F-Bomb in a very pointy and confrontational manner. I haven't seen any of the outrage expressed in comments here directed towards the admin. What gives? Is she on the wrong side of the thin blue wall? ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:54, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

  Two wrongs don't make a right, and no one has provided any diffs on the admin.--Crossmr (talk) 01:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

RepublicanJacobite

Yesterday, I objected to the opening line of the article on The Waste Land, believing the claims it made were unattributed and a little POV ("The Waste Land is a revolutionary, highly influential poem..."). I appreciate RepublicanJacobite (talk · contribs) may disagree. And he is entitled to revert me. However, I do object to having my good faith edit reverted twice without comment and marked as minor. It seems at least half this user's edits involve using the WP:ROLLBACK feature to revert edits that were obviously meant in good faith. Rollback is for reverting vanadalism and nonsense. It is not for removing people's attempts to be helpful without any explanation. As I understand it, this rule is quite strictly enforced. I'm not asking for this user to be blocked or to have this permission revoked but I do think he might benefit from a polite note from a registered user.--81.108.130.124 (talk) 19:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

• I'm inclined to remove rollback from the account, but the last time I did so (for a different user) my action was unilaterally reversed. So I'll wait for some comment from the editor in question before doing so. Perusing the last 100 contributions for rollback reverts without an edit summary I found >50% of them to be good faith edits reverted as vandalism. This is totally unacceptable. Protonk (talk) 19:39, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

• The use of rollback to twice revert legitimate edits alone, with a single talkpage posting, is problematic. The fact that many of RepublicanJacobite's Rollback reverts are of edits that could be considered good-faith shows clear abuse of the feature. The Seeker 4 Talk 19:52, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

• I agree, I've removed rollback from this account. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

• • Endorse removal of rollback, with the note that if he continues to use the "undo" function availible to all users without explanation, it should be viewed as continued problematic editing. Where a good-faith edit is reverted by ANY method, a reasonable attempt to explain why should be undertaken, regardless of the mouseclicks used to cause the revert to happen. --Jayron32 20:58, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Looking at his response to Tim Vickers I think he may continue to have problems, as his view appears to be that non/dub-consensus edit = vandalism.Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:24, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

And another one bites the dust thanks to Misplaced Pages's administrator culture. How difficult is it to understand that when you have a non-emergency legitimate concern with an editor, you raise the matter with them first personally and in a sympathetic manner before escalating it? Do you realise what deficiency in emotional intelligence is shown when a volunteer returns to the project after a day or two to find a note saying "Hey, we didn't like some of the things you were doing, so in your absence we held a public meeting to criticise you and decided that you were wrong and needed to be taken down a peg or two. :D"? We act like a mob of socially stunted twelve year old boys so routinely that the above request for pitchforks looks like normal practice. And then wonder where our reputation for being insular disagreeable autistic obsessives comes from. Fucking hell.  Skomorokh  07:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Whatever, I've changed what you put in 'resolved' as I don't want people thinking your comment reflects anyone's opinion. It was his choice not to join in this discussion, he was around at the time. Dougweller (talk) 08:01, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

As I understand it, rollback is a privilege that can be revoked at any time if it's misused. Asking about it might be a courtesy, but I don't know that it's required. The rules for rollback usage are very clear. Baseball Bugs carrots 09:37, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I truly regard this as a waste of time and energy, but I want to be clear about the facts, at least. You are wrong, Doug, when you claim that I "was around at the time" and chose "not to join in this discussion." As you can bloody damn well see from my contributions, my last edit was to the Johnny Cash article at 17:31, and the ANI message was left at 19:29, nearly two hours later. I was not in my office or near a computer at that time. My next edit was not 'til 22:41, when I left the (admittedly angry) message on Tim Vickers' talk page. Less than an hour passed between the original ANI message and Tim's message stating the rollback privileges had been revoked. That is one hell of a discussion period. I did not choose not to take part in the discussion, Doug, the discussion, such as it was, occurred, and the decision was made before I ever said my piece. I think it is telling that you regard the matter settled because I decided to retire, and feel no need to consider any of the points made by Skomorokh. The irony of all this, at least to me, is that, given the tone of the message the anonymous user left on Vickers' talk page, I believe that he and I could have worked this out quite easily had we discussed it. C'est la vie. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 13:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I meant you were around before you retired, I'm sorry if I wrote that in a way that was ambiguous. As for saying the matter was settled, what I actually did was change a 'resolve' template from Skomorokh which said (obviously ironically) "The miscreant has been run off. Hallelujah. " to a factual message. Perhaps I should just have removed it, but you said you'd retired and therefore no Admin intervention was necessary. I'll remove it Dougweller (talk) 14:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

RepublicanJacobite, I really am sorry if I caused you to retire. I think there was a problem with the way you were editing. Not so much for me but uncommented reversion discourages all but established users from editing. You're one of many, many others, including admins who've used rollback at inappropriate times. Yesterday I felt I was probably too much of an interested party to say anything more than I'd said. Besides, I wasn't able to leave a message on your talk page because of the semi protection.

This page will be archived in a few days and the whole thing will be forgotten. Unlike with a block there's not, as far as I know, a permanent record of rollback rights being revoked and I imagine you can have them back if you ask again in a few months' time. I really would encourage you to reconsider and stay. --86.25.237.87 (talk) 17:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

• I was afraid this was going to happen, but I didn't expect someone to come in here flaming about admin culture. Rollback is a priviledge. The folks who use it are our ambassadors to the world. No one reads or much cares about the signpost, VPP, policy talk pages and what-not, so we can be as newbie friendly as we want there. But they do make edits to the encyclopedia, tens of thousands of people do every day. Each time WP comes up on a site like /. or ars the forum complaints (I know, take it w/ a grain of salt) are invariably focused around admins and hugglers reverting good, sourced edits as vandalism. Each time we revert one of those edits we lose a potential contributor. More importantly, that potential contributor goes off to bad mouth us to their circle of friends. Literally more than 50% of this editors recent edit summary free reverts were improper. More than half the time that he implicitly rejected a contribution as vandalism it came from a good faith editor or potential editor. More to the point, we never would have known about it had someone not come here to complain, because there isn't a lot of energy or willingness to watch the watchers. So no, I don't think this was an abuse of admin power or a reflection on admin culture. I think this was a case where someone was misusing the tool and the tool got taken away. Period. It's not the end of the world, even after a stormy retirement and (seemingly) return. As for your hyperbolic personal attacks and EQ-mumbo-jumbo, I'll let them speak for themselves. Protonk (talk) 18:26, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

If this is directed at me, Protonk, you miss your target entirely. I did not object to rollback being removed in this case – the concerns were justifiable, and speak to the same issues I highlight, namely deterring potentially good contributors and fueling an adversarial editing environment. Nor did I claim that any actions taken were an "abuse of admin power" – the actions taken in this case were, as far as I see it, in line with community norms. It's those norms that are the problem. I haven't personally attacked anyone, because no-one is personally to blame – the clueless, self-defeating and project-damaging ways we react to issues with individual contributors are widespread and are our collective fault for failing to reflect and consider the optimal outcome rather than what punitive measures are allowed in a given instance. And no, alienating yet another dedicated contributor is not the end of the world, or even remarkable – it happens around the wiki constantly, the cost of consistently failing to relate to the person behind the other username.  Skomorokh  19:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it was directed at you. And with respect, "Do you realise what deficiency in emotional intelligence is shown when a volunteer returns to the project after a day or two to find a note saying "Hey, we didn't like some of the things you were doing, so in your absence we held a public meeting to criticise you and decided that you were wrong and needed to be taken down a peg or two. :D"? We act like a mob of socially stunted twelve year old boys so routinely that the above request for pitchforks looks like normal practice. And then wonder where our reputation for being insular disagreeable autistic obsessives comes from." is out to lunch. The entire content of the discussion up until RJB's reply to tim vicker's was calm assent to the claim that someone was misusing a tool, followed by removal of that tool. A tool with a policy page littered with warnings that it will be removed immediately for even accidental misuse. You chose to characterize this process and this discussion as some sort of adolescent/autistic failing of the admin corps. I take deep issue with that characterization and so I pointed out its failings. Walking back the accusation is a welcome step, but you brought it to the table. Protonk (talk) 20:47, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

From my perspective, it is a bit odd to try to focus on the hurt feelings of somebody who routinely used a tool to falsely accuse other editors of vandalism. Surely this misses the point? Tim Vickers (talk) 21:24, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Tim, who said anything about anybody's hurt feelings? I never said anything about my feelings being hurt, because whether they are or not is beside the point, and it was never mentioned by Skomorokh either. So, what is the point of your bringing it up? I did, however, make specific responses, in the message I left on your talk page, to your accusations, and you have not seen fit to respond. Why is that? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

As Elen of the Roads has already pointed out, an edit that you do not feel has consensus is not a "blatantly unproductive edit" and that if you are arguing that you were justified in using rollback to edit war in this fashion it would only reinforce my view that you should not have access to this tool. I hadn't pointed this out before since I thought it did not need commenting on further and that you'd seen this yourself, since you described that comment as just an angry response. I'm sorry if my talking this tool away before you'd had a chance to respond did annoy you, that was not my intention and I'm sorry if it did, but all I was doing was applying the rules - if you use the tool for reverts apart from vandalism it will be removed. Tim Vickers (talk) 00:13, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Tim, let's apologize for removing the tool in a non-emergency situation. We should have waited for the user to respond. That's common courtesy. Jehochman 13:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Skomorokh; basic courtesy would have been to afford RJ the chance to tell his side of the story before acting. If we don't have enough respect for an editor to want to hear from them in this sort of situation, that editor was not a good candidate for rollback. In Tim's defense, RJ had been notified of the ANI posting and not responded within five hours, but people are sometimes busy in IRL and no harm would have come from a little patience.- Simon Dodd { U·T·C·WP:LAW } 13:21, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Looks like edit warring with rollback to me. I'm neutral as to how this was handled, though. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Completely uninvolved editor checking in here; but my observation was that RJ was a competent and committed wiki editor who should at least have been afforded the courtesy of a response before actions were taken unilaterally. Rollback is a privilege and in deciding how to use it, sometimes there is a "snap" decision as to whether an AGF edit or vandalism is involved, given there are instances of "sneaky submissions" that appear to be legitimate. That an edit war resulted is unfortunate but more unfortunate is that a good editor is gone. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:14, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this is spot on why I'm staying neutral, other than to say, maybe it could bear more talking about. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, I think in retrospect, although I stand by my decision, I could have handled it more sensitively. I apologise for acting so quickly but at the time it looked like a pretty clear-cut case. Tim Vickers (talk) 16:59, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Although it is rather belated, I've left him an apology. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:11, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

That is exactly the right approach; no one acted irresponsibly or with malice in this case, but the acknowledgment that a reconsideration of the process may have been the better course, is commendable. I hope that RJ comes back to the fold, and again takes up the cudgel (have I mixed enough metaphors?). Good on 'ya, Tim! FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC).

Spammer, or newbie not knowing how to write about a company's turnaround

I am not sure how to treat Mark.franken (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). He looks either like a spammer looking to spam up Spansion, or a newbie who does not know how to write about a company's turnaround. He replaces the well-sourced article that shows that Spansion has become morally bankrupt with the appalling way it treated its workers while it jacked up executive pay, with a rather spammy and somewhat poorly-sourced article that shows a company with a lot of potential but fails to mention the company's sins that were documented in previous versions of the article. The situation looks like it is turning into an edit war, which is scaring me. I have written a note on his talk page that what he is doing is wrong and could lead to a block, and how to do this correctly. He then reverts my reversions on Spansion, which again destroys the well-sourced information about Spansion's past moral bankruptcy which coincided with its financial bankruptcy. Can an uninvolved administrator help? I feel like that if I continue, I will get involved too deeply in an edit war to stay rational. I am in the middle of moving, so I am currently under a lot of stress and do not think that I can take any further rational direct action on this issue. Jesse Viviano (talk) 03:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Um, we are not a soapbox. The article shouldn't be there to show that "Spansion has become morally bankrupt with the appalling way it treated its workers while it jacked up executive pay" but something a bit more neutral. The company seems to be heading out of bankruptcy and more articles focus on possible patent violations over what seems to me an undue focus on its conduct going into bankruptcy. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:41, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, when you are leaving edit summaries like "which went financially and morally bankrupt", then it is time to step back from an article. --Cameron Scott (talk) 08:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

And there isn't a word of discussion on the article talk page....when there's clearly a discussion to be had about how much weight to give to the bankruptcy period vs earlier or later history. Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I left a note on Mark.franken's own talk page about what is correct because I figured that if he is a newbie, he might not know about an article's talk page. Jesse Viviano (talk) 12:13, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, I was thoroughly disgusted when I read the source article in the pre-Mark.franken versions of Spansion about the nearly simultaneous layoffs and executive pay raises. This made it difficult for me to accept any version of the article that did not include this vital information and made impartiality a difficult task. In my opinion, the article was made incomplete and spammed up by these edits. Jesse Viviano (talk) 12:26, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

And yet, layoffs and executive pay rises are common - LloydsTSB/Halifax being only the latest example. To pillory this one company for a common - if lamentable and morally dubious - industry practice falls foul of WP:UNDUE Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:26, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

• Just for the record, the editor in question appears to be the company's corporate communications manager. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I see this as an argument between two biased editors trying to edit the article in violation of WP:NPOV, one positive, one negative. Seriously, Jesse was it necessary to restore "fate=bankrupt" to the infobox? I would suggest that both of you stay away, one of you has a conflict of interest and the other has an admitted grudge against the company. -- Atama頭 20:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I was not the author of the "fate=bankrupt" thing. That was Kingofdawild166 (talk · contribs) who did that. Please see this diff for the first diff that included that, which is not my edit. I would have written "fate=Chapter 11 bankruptcy" if I had done that, because there is a big difference between different chapters of bankruptcy. See the other articles on bankrupt companies I have tagged as bankrupt for evidence that "fate=bankrupt" is not my style. Jesse Viviano (talk) 01:22, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if you were the author of it or not, you chose to reinsert it which implies that you endorse it. The entire "fate=" is not a legitimate infobox entry, it smacks of both WP:POINT and WP:CRYSTAL. Again, it doesn't matter if you had originally put that into the article, you chose to restore it, which at the very least shows that you were inattentive in your reverts. You've said yourself that you are stressed and don't want to deal with the article any more, so set yourself at ease; the article is receiving the attention it deserves and you can get back to your moving (which I empathize with, I just moved last year and I still don't think the stress of that is totally gone, I still have things in boxes). -- Atama頭 18:38, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, it's mandatory for you to inform someone of a report that you brought up here. I've done it for you. -- Atama頭 20:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I think JV's description of his personal feelings about the company is overshadowing the legitimacy of his complaint in this case. The current version of the article (apparently the version that "shows that Spansion has become morally bankrupt") obviously needs expansion and development, but the brief paragraph about the executive pay controversy appears to be factual, reasonable, and fully-referenced, far from the blatantly biased screed that I was expecting. Meanwhile, Mark.franken's version is just awful (sample: "Spansion expects to successfully emerge from Chapter 11 protection with a sustainable business model aimed at maximizing return on investment for creditors, and generating positive free cash flow and profitability"). Propaniac (talk) 17:56, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, no wonder it's awful; virtually every word added by Mark.franken is copied from some part of spansion's website, mostly . Propaniac (talk) 18:01, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Catholic Church again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Farsight001 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has restored an unsourced sentence in a dispute that has gone on for over a year, after being warned that it is a violation of WP:Verifiability. I'm not seeking a block for Farsight001 at this time, but I would like an uninvolved admin to review the situation here and issue an appropriate warning. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive561#Xandar for more background. Gimmetrow 11:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

If you don't seek a block, what good would a warning from an admin do over merely warning them yourself? Admins don't carry any extra weight in their warnings... It is not safe for him to edit tendentiously after receiving a warning from anyone; having an admin give the warning neither insures he will obey it, nor does it make any response more severe should he violate it. Why not just issue the warning yourself? --Jayron32 14:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Farsight already was warned (on the article talk page). Consider it independent review. Gimmetrow 18:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

It stands to reason the Roman Catholic Church would call themselves just plain Catholic Church, as they believe they are the one true "universal" (catholic) church. Misplaced Pages is playing into their hands with this misleading title. Baseball Bugs carrots 23:56, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Gimmetyrow is the one edit-warring here. The whole passage concerned was agreed line-by-line in mediation. It contains two statements of fact, allowably used from Primary sources. One goes Gimmetrow's way. The other doesn't. It was the one that goes against Gimmetrow that he was trying to remove.

PS Baseball. Catholic Church is the name of the Church, and used in full conformity with WP naming policies. Xandar 00:01, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

No, its name is the Roman Catholic Church, to distinguish from other "Catholic" churches such as Byzantine Catholic. The Roman Catholic church is often called just plain "Catholic Church" for short because its so much larger of a church than the others (than any other, in fact). And don't give me this "common name" stuff. I look for "Edelweiss" and it redirects me to Leontopodium alpinum. Yeh, they wrote a song about that: "Leontopodium alpinum, Leontopodium alpinum, every morning you greet me..." Baseball Bugs carrots 00:13, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

The problem here is a sentence which 1) make a controversial claim, 2) is likely wrong, 3) is explicitly disputed, 4) does not have source and 5) editors have failed to provide sources or clarify the sentence for months. Enough is enough. Gimmetrow 00:34, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

What "controversial" claim? That they call themselves the Catholic Church? They probably call themselves just plain The Church. Baseball Bugs carrots 00:41, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

No, that "they call themselves the Catholic Church more frequently than any other term - even 'the Church'". This should be a simple issue and shouldn't take months to resolve. Gimmetrow 00:51, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Wow alittle sanity. We Orthodox Catholics don't call the Roman Catholic Church the Catholic Church. Gimmetrow is right.LoveMonkey (talk) 03:24, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate the support, LM, but that's a different content issue. Gimmetrow 04:52, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

The point being that the article has the wrong name. "Catholic Church" is incorrect. It used to have the right name, "Roman Catholic Church", but apparently some editors with some kind of agenda got it changed. That's one of the negatives of wikipedia - that a small block of persistent editors can force incorrect information into an article and keep it there. Baseball Bugs carrots 12:14, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually the problem is one of labelling. On one hand "catholic" has the meaning of "pure, correct, orthodox"; to refer to the Roman Catholic Church as simply "the Catholic Church" can be seen as implying all other traditions of Christianity are heretical (some Roman Catholics do believe this, but that is not relevant here). On the other, almost every existing tradition of Christianity considers itself "catholic", especially if they recite the Nicean creed as part of their worship (it contains the passage, "I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church") -- even Protestant Christians find themselves professing to believe in a "catholic church". In brief, "Roman Catholicism" is less offensive & more precise than any other alternative. -- llywrch (talk) 19:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, naming policy supports the use of "Catholic Church", which is the more commonly-used term. And Baseball Bugs is just plain wrong -- the article is about the entire Catholic Church, including the Eastern Catholic Churches. Majoreditor (talk) 23:51, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

That argument for naming it is bogus, as it's not it's name. And the first line says, "Catholic Church, also known as Roman Catholic Church", unless you've decided all the other Catholic churches are part of the Roman church. Baseball Bugs carrots 16:56, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Admin button misuse in edit war.

Over here, things have gotten hot. Asgardian and Nightscream have been in conflict article edit history regarding some dating and issue numbering matters, and it has escalated into an edit war. NightScream protected the page, despite being involved. Both I and Peregrine Fisher spoke out against this page lock. I left a note at NightScream's page, asking him to undo and report the matter, since he was a highly involved editor as well as admin, and since the edit warring issues were clear. I commented that since Asgardian, who in that section linked above, admitted to a recent previous edit war to prove a point, taking this problem to the Edit War noticeboard would've gotten an easy solution. In response, Asgardian accuses me of being the other party complicit in the edit war. While I made a few edits, all mine were to try to find a compromise, based on the talk page, and not a reverting war of edits, as a review of the diffs will show. Most of this is edit war focuses on an introductory phrase, and the use of issue numbers and or dates to tie to the published events. I'd have taken this to the EW board myself, had I realized it would this rapidly turn into this debacle, but given that an admin's use of buttons is in question, and the underhanded implication that I'm to blame for this, I've brought it here. ThuranX (talk) 13:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Wow...that is a pretty blatant misuse of the admin tools. Revert to the version you want in an article you are clearly involved in editing...and then full-protect it? And looking at the article history...it's not the first time he's done it. --Smashville 14:11, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It seems at a cursory review that Nightscream was involved in the content dispute, reverted and then protected the article, which is inappropriate. That said, the article probably should have been protected, and if Nightscream agrees not to act as an administrator and engage in discussion, things should be able to proceed without the need for intervention. Have all relevant parties been notified of this thread?  Skomorokh  14:12, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

On a separate note, it might be helpful to refactor some of your language on the talkpage, ThuranX – I appreciate it was in the heat of the moment and you were responding to what you saw as unfair accusations, but that kind of tone is unlikely to contribute to a more productive discussion.  Skomorokh  14:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I considered that, Skomorokh, but tonight ,he that I was involved in the edit war, with yet another "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" tactic. The manner of both of his attacks pon me is in the form of 'I'm not saying he beats his wife, in fact, I'd like to publicly state here, in a discussion about me beating MY wife, that, in fact, he, who is sitting among us judging me, does not beat his wife.' It's a distraction technique, and i'm actually offended that he'd repeat it in the context of 'I'm apologizing for saying he beats his wife, I can say now that he does not beat his wife....(stuff)... and in conclusion, He does not beat hiswife'. It's a cheap, tawdry tactic for which he was amply warned. As a result, I see absolutely NO reason to redact or refactor anything, as it's clear he's intentionally engaging in this tactic for the drama. In fact, I request a block against him for repeating personal attacks during an edit war after warnings.ThuranX (talk) 03:22, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I unprotected the article without reverting. There was absolutely no reason to protect it so that he could be the only one to edit it. Content disputes are to be resolved on the talk page, not with admin tools. --Smashville 14:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

So...now, I guess, should the page actually be protected is the question, here? --Smashville 18:13, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the "wife" example means, but ThuranX needs to take the advice given above and cool down. The actual issue - a question of formatting - is being discussed between myself and Nightscream, as discussed here: . There were no false accusations. I even stated on said Talk Page that ThuranX was not involved in an edit war. What ThuranX did do was misconscrue a statement I made, and has tried to place words in my mouth. I corrected him : , and also advised that he be civil, something he has been warned about before on a number of occasions:  ; . He has also continued to be uncivil when blocked for edit warring: .

Again, the real issue is under discussion, and an administrator has stated I am not at fault. ThuranX is most welcome to contribute, but just needs to be less emotive. Refraining from the use of caps lock, using exclaimations and profanities would be a good start. Let's just move on. Asgardian (talk) 04:14, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Twice Asgardian has, with no reasonable nor just cause, injected into the problem between him and NightScream comments that imply that I am the cause of the edit war. I'm not going to stand for being falsely accused. He needs to be blocked. ThuranX (talk) 04:26, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm confused as how you interpret that from "ThuranX was not involved in an edit war". I think you need to step back from this because quite honestly, it does look like you need to calm down and look at it with more rational eyes. --Smashville 13:55, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Students A and B get into a fight, C goes for the teacher. B, to defend himself keeps saying C had nothing t o do with it over and over, you start looking for why the denials keep occurring. It's a way of deflecting attention from himself. YOU may not see it that way, but I see it as an intentional distraction from his involvement with the bonus of getting me into trouble if he can. Since I was clearly uninvolved, there's no reason to deny my involvement other than to try to bring attention to my edits. ThuranX (talk) 14:03, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Someone notified me of this thread. The matter of my use of admin tools was addressed and resolved here. If anyone wants further clarification, feel free to indicate it. Just let me know on my Talk Page, because otherwise I don't think I'll be monitoring this particular discussion. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 02:56, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

User:DBZfan29 unblock request

This editor has been blocked, again, for edit warring and is now requesting that he be unblocked, under the false claim that no one investigated the issue. As he has cleared the lengthy discussions multiple administrators have had with him, would like to be sure that any reviewing admin for his unblock request make note of his talk page history and the full story before deciding whether to unblock him. Also good to note that he continues to deny he ever reverted despite proving he did so in his own "story" and his second round of retaliatory AIV reporting before he was blocked again - he did the same the first time around, as well as make personal attacks against PMDrive)-- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 03:28, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I never said they didn't investigate. I said that my report against you was denied because we need to resolve the dispute ourselves, but you weren't. And you make me seem like I'm bad in your sent notice, like I'm lying about all this. DBZfan29 (talk) 03:36, 3 September 2009 (UTC) I never made a personal attack against the admin. I even pointed that out. I was just requesting that he not be a part of this since he said he had your back and even threatened to talk me to me again a while back. DBZfan29 (talk) 03:50, 3 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Acme Plumbing (talk • contribs)

"threatened to talk with you"? How is talking wrong? I also know what happened too because I was involved in it for a second. But then I just watched. Abce2|From the top now!Arggggg! 04:21, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm smelling something fishy. Another account speaks for the user? Strange. Abce2|From the top now!Arggggg! 04:23, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, wow! I knew he was using an IP to edit, but this? Acme Plumbing seems to be a new account and possible been used in disputes before. One could AGF that he jumped in to copy/paste DBFan's responses from his talk page, but of course that begs the question of why? Hmm.... -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 04:35, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeppers, and a word of thanks is due for kindly disclosing the sock and block evasion at a main admin board. Everyone should be so courteous. :) Durova 04:42, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Is anybody going to block Acme Plumbing? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:31, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I've posted on Acme Plumbing's talk page saying there is a discussion here and asking him/her to explain the edit. Dougweller (talk) 10:59, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Startling, their contribs seem to share no topics at all, but it's very likely a sock. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:03, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

• wonders if this is perhaps a PinkgirlXXX sock instead* Syrthiss (talk) 13:07, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

• Acme Plumbing is  Unrelated, just someone trying to be helpful by cross-posting DBZF's talk page comments. However, someone should ask DBZF about edit warring while logged out and the other two accounts operating from his home. Thatcher 20:42, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
  • • • ..."Curiouser and curiouser." Durova 02:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
  • "...the other two accounts..."? Well, well! Or as Alex would say... Baseball Bugs carrots 20:48, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Since DBZF shows the maturity level of a young child, the other accounts could easily be his/her parents, hence (presumably) the hesitancy in naming them. Looie496 (talk) 22:59, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

DBZF has said that both accounts belong to his brother, agreeing with the first part of Looie's comment. Abce2|From the top now!Arggggg! 23:42, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Because the contributions of the accounts are fairly different, that's a plausible explanation for now. Thatcher 00:52, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

DBZfan29 does not appear to have learned his lesson from the last block and insists that he did nothing wrong. In fact, he repeatedly blames other editors for all of the "wrong doing," which is not a good sign. I see no indications that the editor will not return to the same edit patterns that originally lead to his blocked in the first place. --Farix (Talk) 02:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. He keeps clearing responses he doesn't like from his talk page and demanding more opinions when I'd estimate some ten other editors and adminstrators have responded to him and offered him explanations. Instead he continues to claim he did nothing wrong and continues pushing his view, which to me indicates that he will just come back and continue doing the same edits and edit warring the minute he makes an OR edit that is removed. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 03:26, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

While I understand that editors do have a right to remove comments from their talk page, I don't think they have a right to selectively remove comments that undermine his position while leaving others. --Farix (Talk) 11:14, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

He can remove almost anything he pleases other than declined unblock requests. He may not understand, though, how this can do him more harm than help. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Mass external linking

Don't know if it counts as obvious spam, but it does seem wildly inappropriate, an external link Massive Fail.

While looking up some British peer, I saw an external link for http://www.leighrayment.com/. It turns out to be the top page for some amateur's personal page on peerages, with no direct connection to the subject of the article. Fine, I'll remove it. Except that it turns out that that exact, essentially useless and unreliable link is on 4,520 pages. Equally useless subpages (like this) are on thousands more, with the total number of links for that domain topping out at 10,170. This needs to be cleaned up, and automated tools are what's needed. --Calton | Talk 15:58, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

It appears WP:PEERAGE is treating that site as a reliable source, rather than an "amateur's personal page". Before mass deletion starts, discussion at WP:PEERAGE, WP:RSN, or somewhere similar might be a good idea. ANI doesn't seem the best place to determine the reliability of the source. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:09, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

No different than the hundred or so pages this is on. There seems to be a somewhat more lax standard for those kinds of sites. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 16:46, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

We have a Wikipedian by that name (kittybrewster) who primarily edits in the peerage area. Nathan 16:52, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Depends if it's used as a source or simply an external link. It seems to be the former; for instance the first revision of Frederick John Howard includes it as a reference. Does it violate our external linking guidelines? No, since it's being used as a source. Is it a reliable source? That's not for this noticeboard to decide. --NE2 16:50, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I see well over 4500 links to the root domain of the site. Obviously the root of a site is not for verifying article content and smacks of linkfarming. also {{Rayment}}. Looks to be a personal site. --Hu12 (talk) 17:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

That's not obvious to me - if I get some information from Amtrak's website, I might link to the main page in the references section rather than the subpage I got it from. It's not best practice, but it's not necessarily evidence of anything bad. The only thing that matters is whether it's a reliable source, which I admit is questionable. --NE2 17:21, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Point being, that its strange for a site with 295 pages to have in excess of 4,524 links to the root of the site and a grand total of 10,180 links on wikipedia. I do however agree that reiability is the key issue, however to overlook the sheer number of links 'not linking to specific content in order to verify article content, would render any claim of reiability impotent. --Hu12 (talk) 22:28, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no inherent reason a personal site can't be a reliable source. As it so turns out, Rayment is actually more accurate (on average) than the published sources coverage the same material. (Or at least that is my understanding of the situation from reading past posts on the Peerage WikiProject and otehr related areas.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:27, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, there is. Per WP:V#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29: "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media, whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, Internet forum postings, tweets etc., are largely not acceptable.

"Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:43, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

This TfD might also be useful reading. Nathan 17:28, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I concur that this is a matter for WP:PEERAGE to decide, and if editors are unhappy with that decision, it should go to WP:TfD or WP:RSN.  Skomorokh  17:39, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

RFC bot emergency stop

RFC bot (BRFA · contribs · actions log · block log · flag log · user rights) needs to be emergency stopped. Harej (talk · contribs) apparently isn't around at the moment, and it doesn't appear to have a stop function, so... I don't know what else to do other then to come here and ask someone to block it for now. Sucks, but we shouldn't let it continue like this.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 17:13, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll block, but what exactly is the problem with its edits? I confess I'm not familiar enough with it to see the issue outright. Since I'm the one who'll have to explain it to Harej, I'd like to know what sort of teakettle I'm boiling... Thanks, UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 17:30, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I see it - You're getting edits like this and this, where the bot is posting blank moveheaders on inappropriate pages. Agree that we need some sorting out here, and I've blocked the bot. Please revert me if I've erred. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 17:36, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Take a look at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/current. There's also been some talk on Harej's talk page, here: User talk:Harej#Removing unpaired moveheader because it looks like it blanked Talk:London Paddington station. Anyway, I think I know what started it, and Harej should be able to fix it fairly quick, but like I said he doesn't seem to be around at the moment.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 17:39, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh my, yes - this is a doozy. What caused it, do you think? UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 17:45, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

this edit is what started it.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 17:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

...or not. I just noticed the time stamp on the Talk:London Paddington station edit, which is odd. It kept working fine for several more hours after that. Weird. Anyway, it should be fine once Harej has some time to reset it and take a look at what really happened.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 18:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Why are editors allowed to do this kind of thing? If we did something like this at work, we'd be shot. Baseball Bugs carrots 18:24, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

*confused* Why are editors allowed to do... what, exactly?
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 18:27, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I think he's referring to editors being allowed to run bots that blank talk pages and create other shenanigans, to which I'd reply that it isn't always the bot operator's fault that something screws up. In this case, for example, the bot uses a lot of templates - if someone tinkers with one, it might throw the bot's coding off and send it into tailspin of ZOMG vandalism. If a bot operator is notified of flaws with a bot, and disregards the problem or fails to adequately address it, then they can be sanctioned - and there is precedent for that. But that's not the case here; Interestingly, the bot has only been blocked once before for a malfunction - on 4 September 2008. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 18:44, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (speaking of edit conflicts...lol) I think that you're correct, but I was trying not to assume anything. There is a rather extensive WP:BOT policy/procedure to handle this sort of thing, so I don't see anything to really be concerned about (other then the somewhat Byzantine bot approvals process, but that's a different subject). You can't fix what you don't know is actually broken, regardless. Anyway, I noticed the last block as well, but it's got to be nothing more then a minor coincidence.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 18:52, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Darn edit conflicts. That's precisely what happened. The page blankings happen as a result of presumably API errors — stuff which I sadly have not accounted for yet in the code. It's not that big of a deal; when a page is blanked, rollback and move on. On top of this, I was asleep during the events of the tailspin, having been sleeping after a long night of working on Misplaced Pages and coding. I guess the least I could do is configure the bot to not throw up (or lack thereof, I suppose) whenever there's an API error and the markup of a page cannot be retrieved. @harej 18:50, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Interesting... and thanks for sharing. I'd be interested to know what you may end up doing to avoid this in the future, if you ever feel like sharing. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page about it, or I'll ping you at some later date. Of course, you're using PHP and I'm a C# type, but the principles still carry over.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 18:55, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

The fallout from this is massive. In the meantime, I've shut off requestedmoves.php. @harej 19:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Anything we can do to help cleanup? UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 19:25, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I did all the clean-up, but thank you. The bot, to the best of my knowledge, should not be blanking pages anymore, as I now have it check for a blank variable where page contents should be. Everything has been fixed, the universe has been restored to order, the princess has been rescued and I'm off to lunch. @harej 19:28, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, the princess is in another castle. Shell 19:37, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Stilltim has moved about a 100 articles to rather unique types of titles

I am very reluctant to post this issue here, because I know that there should be quite a bit of discussion with the user concerned to try to resolve my worry before resolving to ANI. However, to be honest, I'm not sure how to approach this particular situation, and I think the issue is somewhat urgent to address by people more experienced than I. I do not believe User:Stilltim is trying to be disruptive, and I feel is heart is completely in the right place. However, my concern is that within the space of a few hours he has moved near a 100 articles from conventional titles to rather unique and certainly not community-supported formats: . From what I have gathered on his talk page, he has been spoken to about this type of thing before. Otumba (talk) 20:26, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Warned, and asked for an explanation.DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:35, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Lighteningluster

I am concerned that the username in question may be an obvious sockpuppet of banned user Bambifan101 for the following reasons. First, this username was created by the very same person who recently created a bunch of accounts that were indefinitely blocked as abusive sockpuppets, most of which were identified as belonging to Bambifan101 (see relevant entries in the user creation log). Second, a look at the user's contribution history reveals that the user has edited at least one article that is clearly related to a Disney animated film. SoCalSuperEagle (talk) 22:38, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

It wouldn't surprise me....I think a fresh checkuser would be good to identify the underlying IP range and do some range blocking (or redo an expired one) and find anymore sleepers since one of the newest socks went through and helpfully tagged a bunch that had been missed. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 22:46, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Mary and Jesus = NPOV or POV?

I am engaged in a dispute with some users. I am trying to improve neutrality of the articles Mary (mother of Jesus) and Jesus, but they oppose it. I am sure every administrator is tired of problems such as this one, but your hep would really be appreciated. Thank you! Surtsicna (talk) 22:45, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

This isn't the proper place for this. Soxwon (talk) 22:48, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Could you direct me to a proper place? Surtsicna (talk) 22:51, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

For help with this go to either WP:NPOVN or WT:WikiProject Christianity. Looie496 (talk) 22:53, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I think he would prefer the former... Soxwon (talk) 22:55, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Part of the problem is that Surtsicna is claiming that Muslims call Mary "Umm Isa", although he's not providing a source for that, I don't think, which might be the reason those reverting him are calling it "vandalism". Baseball Bugs carrots 22:59, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Nobody has raised that issue, Baseball Bugs. The fact that she is called Umm Isa has been part of the article Mary in Islam for a long time. The users who are reverting me are also reverting my attempts to improve grammar and they call that vandalism too. Please see the Jesus article as well; while I am trying to achieve neutrality by either mentioning both Christian and Islamic views or removing both, other users want to keep Christian view only. I can understand one's religious passion as long as it is not part of an encyclopaedia. Surtsicna (talk) 23:13, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Think again. Baseball Bugs carrots 04:22, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Looie, thank you for help. I have moved my request and Baseball Bug's comment (as it is relevant) to WP:NPOVN. Surtsicna (talk) 23:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

216.246.164.118

Discuss. Enigma 00:06, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

• Discuss? Nah. Seen this one before. Black Kite 00:15, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
  • I was going to block, but I saw that it was over the whole sharedip template again and I've been down that road before. Looked like disruption, though, and it was blocked twice in August, I think. Thanks, Enigma 01:26, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

GabrielVelasquez

Although this relates to civility/communication issues and I'm uninvolved in this matter, it would not be right to subject another party to go through an earlier step in dispute resolution, when it already went through a later step for similar issues (RfC/U - see Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/GabrielVelasquez#Summary). Therefore, I've brought it here for admins to decide how to handle it. The report made at WQA is pasted below. Also, some other comments/edit-summaries made in general which may warrant attention . Ncmvocalist (talk) 00:53, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Below text copied from WQA.

I am requesting a neutral, third party to intervene in a wikiquette regarding this editor. He has placed a personal attack against me in an article talk page and failed to assume good faith on my part. The origins of this incident are at the Survivorman article.

• An anonymous IP added content that I felt was unsourced and a personal opinion/review of the show
• I reverted the addition using the edit summary "Rv, unsourced and personal opinion"
• GabrielVelasquez undid my removal
• GabrielVelasquez then added a comment to the article talk page calling me arrogant and my edit and edit summary stupid. A confrontational tone was used to regarding verifibility and my apparent lack of perfect memory
• A note about my edit was left on my talk page that I feel was needlessly confrontational
• I requested that GabrielVelasquez retract and strike the comment about me left on that article talk page and reminded him about WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF
• I received this reply stating that I did not AGF to the anonymous IP

The paragraph that I felt was an opinion was subsequently removed by another editor.

On a side note, there appears to be additional incidents of GabrielVelasquez not AGF on Talk:Planetary habitability. I am not involved in this dispute and have no further comment or opinion upon the matter.

If a neutral, third party can intervene in this issue, I would appreciate it. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 00:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

• "The paragraph that I felt was an opinion was subsequently removed by another editor."
  - This a deception, that paragraph has nothing to do with the removed and returned-with-source comments.
  This is a desperated attempt to save face rather than admit error. GabrielVelasquez (talk) 00:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

NOW that I look at the entire, three-in-one edit I see the other paragraph. I meant to return the single top sentence mid-paragraph and didn't see the full paragraph much lower down in the multi-edit. I would not have return that commentary and was going to reword it or delete it but didn't give it enough thought to do either. As I said on your talkpage Dodo I am not your enemy and asked you not to judge me by that one edit. GabrielVelasquez (talk) 00:48, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

• Also the fresh-IP edit ("removed by another editor") Special:Contributions/207.42.152.210 appears very sock-ish. GabrielVelasquez (talk) 01:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Above copied from WQA.

Ncmvocalist, why is this here? Dispute resolution appears to be ongoing between these two users and absolutely does not belong on this noticeboard at this stage. The fact that there was an RfC involving GabrielVelasquez a year ago is completely immaterial to resolving this situation, and does not require that any dispute involving that editor must automatically be escalated to...well, the next step from a WQA is an RfC, so I am still unclear why it is on this noticeboard. Risker (talk) 01:04, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Concur - this looks like a simple misunderstanding and overlooking parts of edits and reverts. A little more AGF and a little less aggressiveness in the edit sequence and talk posts would have been nice but this isn't a ANI worthy problem yet. Exxolon (talk) 01:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry I took it personal, does that help?? GabrielVelasquez (talk) 01:12, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Understating the seriousness of what happened is not a service to anybody. The series of repeated nasty insults was completely unacceptable -- I am not an admin, but if I were, I would give a warning that any repetition of something like this would result in a block. Apologies are well and good, but the main thing is that you must not do anything like that again. If you are intolerably provoked, get help, don't lash out in that way. Regards, Looie496 (talk) 01:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

You ask that I not "judge you by that one edit". The issue is not the revert to the article, but to the article talk page. Proclaiming that you are not my "enemy" or am "on your side" does not absolve you of your incivility by calling me "stupid" and "arrogant". And now you have begun to question my integrity by implying that I am involved in sockpuppetry. Feel free to file a request to WP:SPI. I am sure that it will be found that I have nothing to do with any of the other accounts or IPs. Lastly, I find it very ironic that you tell me to "cool off". I'll ask you again: retract and strike your comment about me on the article talk page. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 04:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Calling an edit stupid is not at all the same as calling a person stupid. The strike out was coming, if you look at my contributions you'll see I'm not orbiting you, can I finish my dinner? you can put you spin on whatever how ever you want, but I see you don't want the peace that has been offer you, you want to protect your pride. I appologize for the misunderstanding, but to me your multiple edit shows inconsideration of what you do and pride, even people who looked at this have said it's premature. you'll notice that I replaced the comment that you deleted and added a reference for it. GabrielVelasquez (talk) 04:32, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

For the record I took a second look at my comments in question and I repeat calling an edit stupid is not calling an editor stupid. And I have already apologized several times for the misunderstanding. And in this case this administrator is abusing his privileges to defend his error and pride. How do you start a review of administrator abuses?? GabrielVelasquez (talk) 04:53, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Why did I know this was going to come down to me supposedly abusing my administrator privileges? Very well, since you asked, you are in the correct message board for allegations of administrator abuse. Or you can file a more formal complaint at WP:RFCC. Feel free to point out my abuse of my administrator privileges and the community will decide if your allegations are true. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 16:52, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

• Before this is closed, since it is an edit by the same notice posting admin and that same time, would someone mind checking this exchange for admin bias. GabrielVelasquez (talk) 02:04, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
• Also, I object to the bias representation of my edits by Nmcvocalist's statement.

GabrielVelasquez modified a part of Nmcvocalist's statement. I can understand the motive, but this still needs to be considered when deciding what to do here.—Kww(talk) 03:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Gabriel - Please do not edit other people's comments like that. If you believe that a particular diff does not accurately represent a situation then provide alternate diffs or diff sequences rather than changing the one someone else presented.

We depend on the integrity and accuracy of complaints and responses. Even if a complaint or response is problematic or inaccurate, we need to know that people aren't editing them willy-nilly making it look like one person said something or proposed something when in fact it was someone else.

Please do not do that again.

I have no time at the moment to investigate the depth of the underlying complaint, so will withold comment on that at this time. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

User still adding unsubstantiated material in violation of WP:BLP and WP:RS

The user 24.85.147.254 has been repeatedly warned on his talk page that he needs to stop adding unsubstantiated claims to Robert C. Cooper and Stargate Atlantis. He cites his own blog as proof the Mr. Cooper ripped him off for some of the concepts from Stargate Atlantis. Request that an administrator take an interest in this issue, since I've reverted his changes many times. I'm not the only user to do so, and I posted to this page about him about a week ago (but I'm not able to find that thread anymore). - EndingPop (talk) 02:52, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

• Blocked for a week. Request page protection at WP:RFPP should the same user return with a new IP. CIreland (talk) 03:04, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

AFD

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/It's Still Living has been relisted three times and it looks like there is a concensus to delete. Joe Chill (talk) 03:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll have a look. Xymmax _{So let it be done} 03:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Someone else better take a look ( I !voted instead :} ) Xymmax _{So let it be done} 03:28, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I voted too. Onward, yon buck! Protonk (talk) 05:15, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

You guys suck at closing stuff. D: — neuro 08:24, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Joe, seems your request attracted more keep-happy editors than decisive administrators; closed as no consensus.  Skomorokh  11:18, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

user:Dr.Thundercat

I'm not sure this account's contributions are constructive . ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Fairly clear vandalism. User has also uploaded vandalism images to MediaWiki, which I can't nominate for deletion since I don't have an account there. JuJube (talk) 04:15, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Blocked. Not constructive indeed...RxS (talk) 04:18, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the uploaded photos have any encyclopedic value if someone wants to nominate them for deletion (I see they are not on Wiki as Jujube pointed out). I also don't know that we can trust their licensing, so perhaps they should even be speedy deleted? I'm not sure how that works. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I have flagged the two images that are obvious copyvios that can be traced by tineye on Commons, but the third can't be traced. If I were a commons admin I'd delete them all outright but I'm not so maybe someone else who is can. Here's a link to them. Mfield (Oi!) 04:55, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Continued incivility by User:Ottava Rima

Major problem

I would like to note that this user was well aware that I was going to bed and that I would be asleep by the time this was put up in the same manner that they were aware jdelanoy was performing an admin action to make the original move. Such actions show a clear harassment campaign. I do not think this will end unless there is a block, and it would probably a require either probation or a ban in general. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:19, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I was curious as to whether this had happened when I first looked at this thread early this morning. What I found out then would indeed suggest that there was some intended timing, although that evidence will be useless since it is all IRC. — neuro 14:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

An IP Editor

Stevertigo, again

Extended content

Everyone walk away. Now. lifebaka++ 15:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Um, no. We have some DICK issues we still need to work out. For one, the MFD issue is still open, and Tanthalas' admin review is coming up. -Stevertigo 15:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Both of you said things. At this point nobody cares who started it. Would it not be better to just drop it and move on? Evil saltine (talk) 15:45, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Yes it would. Collapsed again. Everybody go and do something encyclopedic. Rd232 16:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC) See also: Talk:Barack_Obama § "National Socialism" Stevertigo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) User:Stevertigo/Obama and accusations of National Socialism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) I really hope I don't have to write an explanation. The latter two bullet points put my point across better than any paragraph of wiki-legalese ever could. Sceptre 10:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC) I cannot see where you have informed the user of this report? --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:27, 4 September 2009 (UTC) I closed the MFD and deleted the page. Was there any other admin activity you required? Spartaz 13:12, 4 September 2009 (UTC) ? It doesn't appear to have been deleted yet Spartaz. MickMacNee (talk) 13:27, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Deleted by Chris G. MickMacNee (talk) 13:36, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Restored by Chris G. wtf is going on? MickMacNee (talk) 13:49, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Ah ha. MickMacNee (talk) 13:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC) I fouled the close - too used to the script I use for closing AFDs I guess. Its gone now and I reclosed the MFD. Its still snowing and the page is never going to go into mainspace in the format it was in. Spartaz 14:11, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Now deleted by Spartaz. Isn't this like, wheel warring or something? Seriously guys, get your ducks in line. MickMacNee (talk) 14:17, 4 September 2009 (UTC) How can it be wheelwarring. I see two admins who speedied it and then reversed themselves when they saw the original speedy request had been rejected and one admin (me) who closed the MFD under snow and deleted the article under due process. The next stage for anyone who wants to contest this is to open a discussion at DRV. Spartaz 14:45, 4 September 2009 (UTC) An 'attack page'? Really? About the only thing attacking Obama in that page was the title if you try really hard to assume bad faith, the content was actualy an attack on Conservatives if anything, and could well have been the making of a good article/section. MickMacNee (talk) 13:18, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Anyone that sees value in that insipid coatrack of an attack article has no business being a Misplaced Pages editor, to be extremely blunt about it. Haven't heard a peep from Stevertigo since the ArbCom case ended, this is an odd sort of acting out. Tarc (talk) 13:27, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Bull shit, to be even more blunt. It was called an attack page denigrating Obama, yet it was nothing of the sort. Unless you are of a mind to automatically assume the title was an actual judgement. Have you read the content? It is not an attack on Obama in any sense of the word, unless or until someone proves it gives massive UNDUE weight to the accusations, and thanks to Fox news half the world knows these comparisons have been made over the healthcare bill, that is obviously not the case. MickMacNee (talk) 13:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC) You're assuming good faith when there's no good faith to be assumed. Steve's POV-pushing was the reason RFAR/Obama articles was opened. This is just a run-around process and his sanctions to create a coveted "Criticism of..." article. Sceptre 13:58, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Maybe you should include such details then when filing an ANI report, instead of stating that you don't think you need to say anthing. If anything, why didn't this go to AE if the Obama case is relevant? Infact, I'm unsure even what you were requesting with this posting, deletion of the draft or action against steve or both? MickMacNee (talk) 14:14, 4 September 2009 (UTC) And on looking it up, you and Steve recieved identical remedies for whatever you two got up to on Obama's article's, so I think anybody is entitled to assume good faith or bad faith equally on either of you. 14:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Because I think the facts should speak for themselves when I present a user seriously suggesting an article covering comparisons of a person to Hitler. And the ArbCom remedies did not reflect the disruption caused at all. The equality of sanctions is only because, I feel, that AC wanted to look politically neutral when they didn't really need to make the remedies equal at all. Sceptre 14:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC) It should probably have been called Obama and the national socialism analogy to avoid the inevitable kneejerk reactions though. MickMacNee (talk) 13:34, 4 September 2009 (UTC) "othercrapexists" isn't exactly a compelling argument, mick. Tarc (talk) 14:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Who's making an argument, I'm merely saying that might have been a better title to forestall the kneejerk reactions. MickMacNee (talk) 14:10, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Tempting to just delete it now but, in all honesty, it will save a great deal of otherwise inevitable wikilawyering and general kerfuffle down the line if the MfD is allowed to run its course. CIreland (talk) 14:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC) There's someone sensible among you? And you wrote this an hour ago - amazing that noone else here had the sense to find your comments sensible. -Stevertigo 15:52, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Spartaz Resolved – No admin action necessary. Tan | 39 15:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Note: User:Neurolysis is a partisan in the related MFD and thus has no business closing this ANI thread. -SV Spartaz twice now has early closed an in-progress MFD discussion. His response to my request to reopen and restore the relevant non-BLP, draft, userspace subpage was "no." I'd hate to pull a Sanger here, but if we are going to let 12 year olds be admins, can we at least set some ground rules? Its bad enough we have MFD's where people obviously don't read what they vote to delete. -Stevertigo 14:24, 4 September 2009 (UTC) I think you got lost on your way to DRV and I'm considerably older then 12. Spartaz 14:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Its not a DRV issue at this point. It's about you, your pre-emptive/interrupting/disrupting action, and your non-responsiveness - such that might demonstrate the need for people to be at least.. <this high>.. to be an admin. 14 maybe? -Stevertigo 14:34, 4 September 2009 (UTC) That was the most inappropriate comment I have read in a long time. You should really think before you speak, Steve. — neuro 14:36, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Well, if he hadn't acted out of line, he wouldn't be in tears right now. -Stevertigo 14:37, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Wasn't this just being discussed above? In other words, it wasn't necessarily out of line. I would suggest some striking on the inappropriate comments (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Where is this discussed above? And how is this above discussion somehow a validation of the appropriateness of nullifying another discussion? -Stevertigo 14:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC) The correct venue to discuss the close of a deletion discussion is DRV. ANI is for drama and since you decided to preemptovely reverse my first close without the courtesy of even telling me on talk page I would suggest that you would do well to look at your own contribution to harmony and promoting good faith. Where are you getting the nonsense about my age from? I',m not crying, I'm not upset and I'm not a teenager. You make yourself look stupid carrying on like this. Spartaz 14:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC) 1) (Was added to above comment, but preempted by conflict): You can of course redeem yourself by just doing as I requested - what I shouldn't have had to request in the first place. 2) You had early closed the MFD just as I was posting my comment there. I did not need to inform you on your talk page - I noted my reasons in the comment line. 3) "harmony and good faith" - don't premptively close things and you will also be a contributor to these.-Stevertigo 14:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Or, you could have saved us said drama by not creating such a piss-poor article that you knew would never have made its way into mainspace in the first place. I fail to see how your actions today can be described as anything but trolling. Tarc (talk) 14:51, 4 September 2009 (UTC) "A piss-poor article" it is not. It is a non-BLP, draft, in my userspace. And I fail to see how wanting to make at least one comment on the MFD before it getting deleted is "trolling," or how what your doing now can be anything but. -Stevertigo 14:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC) You must be kidding me. A partisan in an MfD? Now I've heard it all. — neuro 14:53, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Well you did make a comment there did you not? Hence, why pretend to be neutral here, such that would give you standing to close this thread also? -Stevertigo 14:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC) All I see is you acting like a total dick, Stevertigo. I'm closing this thread before you do something stupid to get yourself blocked. Tan | 39 15:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC) That comment means I just reversed your thread closing, and you got yourself your own ANI section. -Stevertigo 15:25, 4 September 2009 (UTC) well, technically he got himself his own subsection. just saying. Syrthiss (talk) 15:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC) To throw off a quick reply to Steve, at no point have I pretended to be neutral. You might want to check on your use of the word 'partisan'. — neuro 15:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Good. Then the point of all of this is: Don't close threads while they are still running, for whatever reason. This is a principle that goes way back to the beginning of talk pages: Don't alter other people's comments, and don't try to derail discussions by being a troll or a process dick. -Stevertigo 15:32, 4 September 2009 (UTC) User:Tanthalas39 User:Tanthalas39 wrote: "All I see is you acting like a total dick, Stevertigo. I'm closing this thread before you do something stupid to get yourself blocked." - Violates WP:DBAD and maybe also WP:NPA. -Stevertigo 15:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC) See meta:Don't be a dick. lifebaka++ 15:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC) (edit conflict) User:Stevertigo wrote: "if we are going to let 12 year olds be admins, can we at least set some ground rules?" - Violates WP:DBAD and maybe also WP:NPA. — neuro 15:22, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Lol. You've got to be fucking kidding me. Tan | 39 15:24, 4 September 2009 (UTC) (ec)You mean the "Telling someone “Don't be a dick” is usually a dick-move" part? The key there Steve is that it says "usually"; it doesn't say "always". You're in a hole, bud. Stop digging. Tarc (talk) 15:25, 4 September 2009 (UTC) No, telling someone not to violate DBAD is not the same as what Tanthalas said, which was to call me a "total dick." I of course am doing my best to refrain from using similar language. -Stevertigo 15:27, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Man, just drop it and walk away. DRV the MfD close if you feel like it, but continuing here isn't gonna' make anything good happen for anyone. lifebaka++ 15:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Don't get your threads confused. This one is about Tanthalas' foul NPA-violating mouth.-Stevertigo 15:35, 4 September 2009 (UTC) If this fucking thread is about my fucking mouth, you've been fucking misinformed that Misplaced Pages is somehow fucking censored. Get over it. Tan | 39 15:37, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Keep talking. -Stevertigo 15:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Will somebody please collapse this mess? — neuro 15:33, 4 September 2009 (UTC) Why? It's almost an Arbcom case. -Stevertigo 15:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

DRV

As there is no appetite to resolve this here, I've filed a DRV, see Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2009 September 4#User:Stevertigo/Obama and accusations of National Socialism. It might be helpfull if some kind soul does the temporary restore jazz, to help those without magic powers to see for themselves what was and was not on this page and why it needed to be spirited away into the night with such haste and accrimony. MickMacNee (talk) 17:15, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Jackbooted Thug

On July 12, 2007 User:MatthewSMaynard made Jackbooted Thug, and made it a redirect to Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, diff. Thanks to the alertness of User:IvoShandor, I was made aware of this and have changed it to a redirect to Thug for now. I checked the 3 most recent months for hits on this title. The most were 27 in June 2009, while July and August had only 11 and 12 hits each.

My initial thought was just to delete the page altogether, but I thought I would wait and ask here for consensus. It does not get a lot of hits, but it does get some, so perhaps it should stay as a (protected?) redirect.

I am also wondering what sort of actions beyond a warning (if any) should be taken with regards to User:MatthewSMaynard. After I post this I intend to leave a note on his talk page directing him here. A quick check of his recent contributions shows he is not very active. I have not gone through all of his contributions to look for more nonsense like this, or his talk page history to see if he has received warnings.

Your thoughts? Ruhrfisch _><>° 13:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The user ID was created almost exactly 4 years ago. The "jackbooted thug" redirect was created in summer of 2007, as you noted, so a warning about it seems a tad late. The user has had a grand total of 2 edits in 2009, so either he's mostly editing under a different user, or is just an occasional drive-by. He's obviously a gun lover, which his latest edit indicates, and hence I don't think it's a compromised account. But it bears watching. A warning at this point would be a more generic warning to watch out for POV-pushing. Baseball Bugs carrots 13:36, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a valid redirect using a valid search term. In the firearms community, the BATFE is almost exclusively referred to as a group of jackbooted thugs. This is a notable term as its use in a fundraising letter from the NRA caused President George H.W. Bush to resign his membership in that organization. Why does the redirect so trouble you? L0b0t (talk) 13:32, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

It's a POV-pushing term. Can you demonstrate that its origin and sole usage is by the NRA? Baseball Bugs carrots 13:36, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec w/ Bugs) There's likely an article to be had on this. Meanwhile, if sources can be found to support the redirect and the article itself notes the term, it can stay. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:37, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Just checked and neither the word "jackboot" nor the word "thug" appears in the current version of the ATF article. Ruhrfisch _><>° 13:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

To put the jackboot on the other foot, how about if we create a redirect for Redneck gun-freak to National Rifle Association? Baseball Bugs carrots 13:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Likewise, if the sources are to be had, which is to say, if the term has become widely noted as popular jargon for members of the NRA (or whatever), it can be done. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:45, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I understand the point of the "Neutrality of redirects" section at WP:REDIRECT, but at some point there is a line drawn between non-neutral terms to direct users to article and outright pejorative attacks. "Jackbooted thugs" doesn't seem to be specific enough to any one group or movement, it is more commonly used to refer to any group, government, organization, etc...perceived as heavy-handed or oppressive. Tarc (talk) 14:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Sources would at least need to show that such a term was widely used/noted in published coverage of the topic to which it was redirected, such as Dittohead. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:26, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Bugs, your redirect sounds fine too except for the obvious fact that most NRA members are not southern or even English farmers in Southern Africa (redneck comes to us from rooinek, a Boer slur against the English) Having several friends & family members who are FFL holders, I can assure you that the BATFE (esp. in the 70s-80s) acted like stormtroopers, showing up at one's house in the wee small hours, handcuffing license holders to chairs while agents conducted inventories of license holder's firearms. This situation got so bad that Reagan made a campaign promise to do away with the BATFE (he broke his word). Then in 1995 (IIRCC), Wayne LaPierre sent out a letter in which he referred to BATFE agents as "Jackbooted government thugs." Now, as far as I an tell, the term jackbooted thugs has been used since (at least) the 1960s to refer to oppressive appendages of officialdom so the term itself could use a discrete article or at the very least a mention in BATFE, Thug, Jackboot, etc. Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 14:10, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The incident is actually already covered at Jackboot so I will change the redirect to point to that article. L0b0t (talk) 14:24, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

To redirect such an obviously biased and inflammatory term to a government agency is nakedly obvious POV-pushing. Some of us consider the NRA itself to be the "jackbooted thugs", but that's another story. Baseball Bugs carrots 15:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we could balance things out out redirecting Floyd R. Turbo to the NRA. PhGustaf (talk) 16:13, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Freakin' A, Bubba. I was also thinking maybe we should redirect "Treason" to "Confederate States of America". Baseball Bugs carrots 16:24, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I was going to redirect Open Dates in October to Wrigley Field. --Smashville 18:26, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Is this anti-Semitic?

Here's a recent post to Talk:David Irving . In my view "religious zealots" is a euphemism for Jews. And the fact that I am an atheist won't prevent me from being classed in with those religious zealots who watch the article for 24 hours a day and insist on describing this individual as a Holocaust-denying anti-Semite just because he has lost court cases on those issues in ultiple jurisdictions.--Peter cohen (talk) 15:13, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

If you can't tell, how can it be "anti-Semitic?" -Stevertigo 15:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

It's the user's first edit in a month, so I'm kinda' confused where that comment came from. Regardless, all they need is some talking to. No admin intervention necessary here. lifebaka++ 15:33, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Malik Shabazz/Fan mail

I don't know if this is the proper place to bring up such a concern, but this page seems to be a violation of WP:DENY. I know it is userspace, but I have heard of userboxes that referenced WillyOnWheels, and this was done away with due to the successful WP:DENY policy. This "fan mail" page seems to give recognition to obscene vandals and trolls. When view the page's history, you can see that some of the attack comments were even directly added to that page by the trolls and vandals themselves. The page does seem to give encouragement for recognition. I know it is only one page, but only User:Malik Shabazz has a page such as this. I have nothing against Malik Shabazz. I only request that this page be deleted. I don't think that there should be any pages such as this, and I certainly wouldn't want any other users to create one. However, I wouldn't bring my concerns here unless I thought that there was a violation of policy. WP:DENY has been successful in keeping even the most infamous vandals, such as User:JarlaxleArtemis, off of Misplaced Pages. A certain redirect reference his nickname was deleted per WP:DENY. I only request that the "fan mail" page that I have brought to your attention be deleted. Thank you for your time.--Quince Quincy (talk) 15:25, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:MFD is the right place for this. :) — neuro 15:28, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you.--Quince Quincy (talk) 15:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Also, I have seen multiple users with pages and sections on their userpages like this, dedicated to the same thing. If memory serves, some were kept. — neuro 15:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I dunno, I collected a few off-wiki bits where I am mentioned by name and put them on my user page (linked in sig). I don't think a collection of personal attacks would necessarily encourage more. Tarc (talk) 15:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Peltimikko at Communist genocide

There is an on-going discussion at Communist genocide concerning an article merger. User:Smallbones deleted the merger tag without discussion with the notation No consensus to merge despite lengthy discussion. I then set up a discussion on the talk page stating that consensus was required in order to remove the tag and restored the tag with the notation Need a consensus not to merge in order to remove tag - see discussion. User:Peltimikko then reverted without any discussion on the talk page with the notation One month without consensus. What would a month or a year more do? Probably nothing.

The WP policy is:

To provide clarity that the merger discussion is over and that a consensus has been reached, it may be important to close and then archive the proposal discussion. To close a merger proposal discussion, indicate the outcome at the top. If the merger is particularly controversial, one may take the optional step of requesting closure by an uninvolved administrator at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard.

The Four Deuces (talk) 15:56, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

You don't keep a discussion open forever until a consensus has been reached one way or the other. That's nonsense. And you're misinterpreting the above passage, it's saying what to do if there has been a consensus reached, it says nothing about what to do if a consensus has not been reached. Requesting a major change to an article such as a merge, or deletion, or rename requires that a consensus be reached if there is opposition to the change. If, after a reasonable amount of discussion that consensus can't be reached, then the change isn't made. It is not required that a consensus be reached one way or the other, if there is no consensus then you leave the article alone. It sounds like both Smallbones and Petlimikko were correct in their actions, a month certainly seems like a long enough time to wait if discussion has stalled and nobody can reach an agreement (for example, deletion discussions only last a week). If you feel strongly about this you might want to seek dispute resolution but I don't think administrator action is required for any of this. -- Atama頭 17:53, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, "no consensus" often is the outcome of these discussions (look in the passage you quoted about about how to archive a merger proposal, and where it talks about indicating the outcome). Also, did you post this here to request that an uninvolved administrator close the discussion? (I assume you don't want the discussion closed at all.) That would be the only administrator action that I could see resulting from this. -- Atama頭 17:58, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Persian Empire

This is a blanking of a Top priority and High priority article with a personal attack in it. If you look through the history, a group of five editors, Alefbe, Kurdo777, Dbachmann, Folantin, and Fullstop, have been pushing for a removal of the Persian Empire page in various ways.

The first time this was undone was by Wizardman. This was reverted by Folantin, claiming that there was consensus. The page, before her revert, reveals Dbachmann at 14:05, 15 August 2009 stating that the page should merely be renamed, R'n'B at 09:26, 21 August 2009 saying that "rather, there is a historical succession of different states within the same (or similar) territory and culture that have a clear relationship to each other" and arguing for the page to be met with a better summary style but kept. Then there is BritishWatcher at 14:33, 21 August 2009 saying that the page should not be blanked.

It is clear from the talk page that there was no consensus at the time. Afterward, myself and others, including Shoemaker's Holiday, NuclearWarfare, Xashaiar, Warrior4321, Dekimasu, etc (at least 8 in total) stating that the page should not be turned into a disambiguation page or a redirect. There have only been five editors claiming that it should be, and they are constantly edit warring and fighting against consensus. Folantin, Fullstop, and Dbachmann have a very long history of interacting and working together to push the same views on multiple pages as you can see here and on their talk pages. Alefbe has a long history of pushing his POV at various Iranian related sites and Kurdo777 is a Kurdish POV pusher with an anti-Iranian agenda that has been criticized for using sock puppets and violating our policies on content many times before. It seems clear that these users would rather edit war and attack others in order to push their POV than actually deal with consensus. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

ANI is not about content dispute. Alefbe (talk) 16:14, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Nonetheless, Ottava's claims are clear examples of Ad hominem and should be addressed according to the Misplaced Pages policy (this is the only part of the dispute which is relevant to the admins). Alefbe (talk) 16:17, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Ottava is just trolling and should be sanctioned. He has no interest in Iranian history whatsoever. He's just there to disrupt because he has a grudge against me over his failed RfA (this can be documented with evidence). The one feature members of the "cabal" he is alleging have in common is that they have all spent a lot of time contributing to articles on the history of Iran. The same cannot be said about some of Ottava's "supporters". It's time for a ban on OR for his constant violations of WP:POINT.--Folantin (talk) 16:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but did you honestly suggest that you have the right to WP:OWN a page and tag team simply because you work in an area a lot? Furthermore, you edit warred to promote this POV on a lot of pages I am involved in. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:26, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

No, Ottava, you have a grudge against me. That's the only reason you are there. Articles are generally best edited by those with some knowledge of the subject. You have demonstrated a woeful grasp of the most basic facts of Iranian history. --Folantin (talk) 16:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:OWN applies to groups of editors just as much as it does individuals -- even people who in your view have a "woeful grasp of the most basic facts of Iranian history" are allowed to edit there by default. Ottava and others have the same right to edit such pages as you. — neuro 16:34, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I didn't realise stalking was allowed now. --Folantin (talk) 16:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a page that I have seriously edited for a long time. As can be seen, Folantin came onto the page at 15:45, 21 August 2009 and altered the title away from "Persian Empire" on a link with an edit summary (→1730s: sp. per Misplaced Pages article. Persia=Iran). It was reverted after Wizardman restored the Persian Empire page back to what it was. She reverted again with an attack on my understanding of 18th century history. As you can see, there is no "stalking" going on. However, Folantin does have a history of going to pages I edit and disrupting. This can be seen at Ludovico Ariosto. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd been editing articles relating to Ariosto long before you turned up, e.g. --Folantin (talk) 16:48, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Funny how you never showed active interest until after I was expanding the page. Making one little change is far different than attacking someone who was fixing the page. Hell, you never showed any actual active interest on that page besides some of the most minor changes. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I have provided more than enough sources on the talk page verifying my statements there, and if Arbitrators or anyone else in high status would like to query me on my academic background and possible post-graduate classes I may have taken in the area of the topic to verify that it is not just some "random" subject for me or something I don't know about, they can feel free to email me. Most Arbitrators should already know my personal information, but I can forward more information verifying this in particular. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

No you haven't, because there's no way the following statements (a brief sample of your gaffes) can be justified: "The Persian Empire was the series of dynasties following 600 AD." Again: "The "Persian Empire" refers to a series of dynasties between 600 AD until the Ottoman Conquest. No more, no less." And when did the "Ottoman conquest" occur? In 1800 AD apparently: "Furthermore, as I stated above, the Persian Empire was the 30 or so dynasties between 600 AD and 1800 AD." --Folantin (talk) 16:45, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I provided many sources verifying my claims. But ANI is not about content, it is about actions and edit warring. Please stay on topic instead of trying to derail this like you did with any discussion on the Persian Empire talk page. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Constant page blanking and edit warring is not a content dispute. It is a major policy violation. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:24, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

all there is to say about this is that Ottava is trolling the page (and now forum-shopping about it), but is about to hit 3RR, which is why we have 3RR, so the problem is going to take care of itself. Nothing to see here. --dab (𒁳) 17:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

• Why would redirecting the article Persian Empire to an article on the "first" Persian Empire make sense? And secondly, why was the edit summary "reverting unproductive edit from unproductive editor" used? ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:06, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Clear evidence of Ottava's trolling. When I pointed out the use of "Persian Empire" in the current version of Encylopaedia Britannica, he stated, "Britannica is not a reliable source. It is a tertiary source. We use secondary sources." . A few days later he started a section discussing how he was going to use the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica as a source. So the up-to-date Britannica and Encyclopaedia Iranica (dismissed by Ottava as "not a reliable source") are irrelevant, but a 100-year-old work is worthy of consideration? Ottava doesn't actually care what he says. He just wants to create drama and get his way no matter how much time he wastes.--Folantin (talk) 17:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

• The 1911 source was used to point out a pre-modern source. There is a major difference from using an old source to show how the term used to be used extended back into history and a modern source in order to claim how the source -only- should be used. Furthermore, why do you keep trying to dodge from the edit warring aspect and the lack of consensus for your version while edit warring to keep it in? Ottava Rima (talk) 17:13, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Evidence of OR's grudge against me. Significantly his very first edit to Talk:Persian Empire was to accuse me of "disruption" (even though I've edited at least a dozen articles on Iranian history) and call for me to be banned : "However, that is what happens when you have such people that are here only to cause disruptions. A block should probably allow for people who actually care about Misplaced Pages to put a page in place". This is clear violation of WP:TALK, yet it is a threat Ottava will repeat many, many other times in the course of the debate. (of course, he's made worse threats during the course of the same debate, some of which have ended up on ANI ). --Folantin (talk) 17:33, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Since when do we not consider the reversion of an Arbitrator in good standing, Wizardman, as disruptive when he makes it clear that there was no justification for a large scale blanking of a page on the talk page? Folantin, it is clear that your behavior was highly inappropriate and no amount of deflections or the rest can hide from that. You edit warred a vandalistic act against an Arbitrator in good standing without even having the decency to try and talk about it first. That is highly inappropriate conduct. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you actually understand Misplaced Pages? Arbitrators have no more authority over content than anyone else. Wizardman was not there as part of ArbCom, he was there as a private editor. He made no contribution to the discussion on the talk page before he reverted me. I asked him to do so because the article was undergoing an overhaul . I haven't edited the page itself in two weeks so your constant demands to have me "banned for edit-warring" are simply evidence of your harrassment of me. --Folantin (talk) 17:53, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The point is this - you can bash me all you want, but you have no grounds to claim that Wizardman was acting inappropriately. As such, you have no argument to justify your actions. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:04, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Ottava -- would you please listen to me if I make a suggestion? -- When you encounter someone who disagrees with you on something, large or small, content-related or policy-related or anything else, would you please strive to treat the editor with whom you disagree with dignity, respect, and decency, in accordance with the Golden Rule and, I believe, our policies? I see you shrilly calling for various people in the last couple weeks to be banned, and in one case you threatened to call someone's school because you'd "discovered the new Essjay" -- please, please, please dial it back before something bad happens? Do you really want other people to treat you that way? Thank you, Antandrus (talk) 18:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Antandrus, you are not a neutral party, so please don't pretend to be one. Your characterization as things like "shrilly" do poorly for you, as they don't represent anything close to the truth. And "threatened to call", that is a fine way of completely misrepresenting a situation. What I want is for people like you to stop violating our rules, making false accusations, and making up things simply to defend a friend. It is 100% obvious that the five listed were edit warring in a blanking of a top priority page. Your ignoring of that is telling. You and Folantin and anyone else can try and hide from the issue, but it is blatant to any objective observer. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:28, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

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