Misplaced Pages

No, they are not. The reasons for excluding the section are that it is off-topic, irrelevant, POV original research. Please give it a rest. Information on the economy of China can be found in economy of the People's Republic of China. Information on the CPC can be found in Communist Party of China. Please give it up here. 172 20:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC) +

It is not POV, POV has been removed.

It is not Original Research. All the data is taken from respectable published sources (REad the freaking rulebook) +

It is not off topic it follows in line with the spirit of the page which is demonstrating how communist theory and ideology has changed over time

And the simple fact that this information is briefly covered does not adequatly explain why this should not be included as several sections in this page are not only included in other pages but have their own pages as well. +

Your refusal to allow this section is simple censorship. You dont want information counter to your own beliefs to be entered into this page for fear of people learning to disagree with your position. You are an intellectual coward who cannot fight facts on its own merits and has to hide behind perverting wiki rules to see intellectual competition removed +

(Gibby 20:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

You cannot be serious. I have no passionate opinions about this subject matter whatsoever. I could personally care less about the content of your section; and I don't think that any other editor has a strong ideological view on this topic, for that matter. However, I do have a strong opinion on the need to keep information in the communism article relevant to the topic, because I care about helping Wikipeidia develop along the lines of its goals. Please try to be civil-- and take your concerns to articles where they are not tangential-- such as economy of the People's Republic of China and Communist Party of China. 172 21:04, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

172, while I think that Gibby is being uncivil, he has a point. Why exactly is this section not relevant? --Pianohacker 22:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

See my comments above. 172 23:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

We were doing fine without it a month ago, and I have explained (in archive 7) that it's redundant. Consider this, suppose I post in the United States article, an entire section about commenting about its welfare system and how it seems ironic if compared to the American dream, how it goes against the entire system of free enterprise, blah blah blah. Now, an entire section in a country article about its welfare system is already too much. A section for the entire purpose of making an observation of welfare when compared to other American concepts is even narrower....now, this is basically what the current section proposed to this article is. This article is a pretty general article, almost like a country-article, since it spans such a wide range of information. An entire section making this narrow observation (however accurate) would be disjunct and wouldn't flow, and then we would get laughs from critics and the Register if they ever decided to use this as an example against Misplaced Pages about the sheer pettiness and narrowness of our articles. Gibby: I think we will have less trouble, or even no trouble, if this is moved to "communist state" (and merged with existing material to cut redundancy), just see what the consensus is about that. Communist state is basically a child article about Communism, just as Maoism and Leninism is. -- Natalinasmpf 22:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Natalinasmpf, you raise the argument that Misplaced Pages would be a laughing stock. I note that philosophy of Misplaced Pages is to present NPOV, to be "the 💕 that anyone can edit". In my opinion, an NPOV encyclopedia has the potential to be vastly superior to existing encyclopedias which are decidedly not NPOV. Should the Misplaced Pages community take the POV that NPOV should take second place to the avoidance of ridicule? (BostonMA 23:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

which is perhaps why Electionwood suggested the addition of information regarding North Korean and Vietnamese reforms in this section. That only makes it more relevant than it already is (and it is relevant thanks to inclusions of lenninism maoism..etc. I dont know how many times I have to keep repeating this, but its clear you dont get it). (Gibby 21:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

and don't lie about your passions, you've got on your interests the Soviet Union, Russia, and George Keenan...I think thats a pattern! (Gibby 21:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

What proof do you have of these interests, and then again, what exactly do you mean? --Pianohacker 23:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

It is in his bio or whatever he calls it on his user page. (Gibby)

Gibby, I know a little about the subject, granted. I make a living from teaching-- perhaps the motive on my part for learning about the subject is rent seeking? I don't have an ideological axe to grind. If someone on Misplaced Pages is expressing the POV that the practice of the CPC is contrary to communist theory, I can care less. I have no idea how it affects me personally; I have no idea if it is a challenge to my political views. The substance of your arguments doesn't affect me in the slightest, personally or ideologically. I just want this particular article to stay on topic. That's it. I want to accomplish this aim with as little disruption as possible, consuming as little time as possible. I'm sorry if I'm turning out to be surprisingly dull and unsophisticated; but you will have to deal with many other editors like myself, who are less passionate about the subject matter than about striving to uphold Misplaced Pages's content policies. 172 23:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I dont have an axe to grind other than teaching a couple people (you and nati) lessons in logical consistancy and factual correctness. THe section I have added, is relevant, and is only irrelevant in the minds of the logically inconsistant. You cannot attack my section and expect the ones that remain to continue to exist without the same logic coming back and attacking it.

To date no good excuse has come up for this sections deletion becasue they cannot hold up to logical examination.

POV Original Research Not Relevant Not part of the ideology Not enough google hits talked about on other pages.

Of course it's related to the subject. The criterion for including information here, however, is not simply that the material pertains somehow to communism. If that were the case, this article would be thousands of pages long. Misplaced Pages must pay attention to the encyclopedic principle of hierarchy if it is to be useable. Just take your observations to a more specialized article, then there will not be a problem. 172 00:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

market oriented reforms engaged by communist parties. Its very much apart of the page already. This is lenninsm. You allow it to remain.

Just cut the crap, allow it, and then actually make useful suggestions instead of being a PITA. (Gibby 08:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

Gibby, give it up. If this dispute goes to arbitration, you are not going to win. There is a consensus against inserting your section; I am not the only one who is 'not allowing it to remain.' 172 15:05, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

The Poor Objections to the FMC section

• POV (There is no POV I've edited it relentlessly to remove any suspected POV, offer assitance if you can (editors with major complaints have failed to do so to date).
• Original Research (this section does not constitute original research. Everything is verifiable through respected sources...which are even cited. More can be given if needed! Likely these people have problems with the selected sources or the person who ORIGINALY typed the section)Editors have also failed to give examples as to how this is Original Research other than to throw out this complain. Words have meanings...and so do rules. You cant make up stuff as you go along!
• Covered elsewhere (so is lenninism, maoism, stalinism, the soviet union are not only mentioned elsewhere each their own pages. Market oriented reforms are barely mentioned, even when in its own page)
• SEZs are state capitalism thus already covered in the page (SEZs are not state capitalism. State capitalism is command economy, SEZs are market economies. They are too seperate things and the SEZs and market economies of some present day "communist" countries is not actually included in the article)
• Not relevant to communism (how is the fact that communist governments conducting market reform not relevant to communism as the ideology? Especially since the ideologies of communism included are ideological schools that have allowed monetary systems, private property, and a few other things that defy the basics of communism)
• not enough google hits (title Free Market Communism had 178 google hits, more than some of the other section titles in the page)

Gibby

If market-oriented reforms are barley mentioned "even in its own page" then start 'in its own page.' It makes no sense to have an article on the general offering more detail on the particular than is offered on the particular in the article on the particular. 172 02:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

and...what is your objection to having this page linked to a new page which covers the subject more in depth...once again, we have Lenninism and company linked with pages on lenninism...

Again, no point.

(Gibby)

Suspected Original Research, "The modern world's first effort to build socialism"

The current text reads:

"In Russia, the modern world's first effort to build socialism or communism on a large scale, following the 1917 October Revolution, led by Lenin's Bolsheviks, raised significant theoretical and practical debates on communism among Marxists themselves."

Statements which attribute actions to "the modern world" are suspect as original research. After 48 hours have elapsed, (and obviously after the article is unlocked), I will edit this sentence, unless someone provides a verifiable source for the sentence or makes a request for more time to locate such a verifiable source.

I will replace it with the following text, unless convinced that another text is superior.

"The Russian 1917 October Revolution was the first time any party with an avowedly Marxist orientation, the Bolshevik Party, obtained state power. The assumption of state power by the Bolsheviks generated by a great deal of practical and theoretical debate within the Marxist movement."

(BostonMA 22:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

This is just a matter of style, not original research or POV. Once the article. On that note, the style of the sentence should be modified, so as to avoid coming across as giving agency to non-human historical abstractions such as "the modern world." When the article is unprotected, I will change the prose in question to the following "... first effort to build socialism or communism on a large scale in modern history... " Still, there's no reason to make a little style error out to be a bigger deal than it really is. 172 23:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, as far as I am concerned, your version is still suspected original research, and I will expect you to provide some sort of verifiable source.

Also, I disagree that the issue is not one of POV. You take the POV that an attempt was made (by whom? Stalin?) to build socialism. My POV is that Stalin used the political slogan of "buiding socialism" to advance certain ends, but that he did not actually attempt to build socialism, but rather something repulsive to socialism. (BostonMA 00:09, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

Fine. Then the sentence can get changed to "... first purported effort to build socialism or communism on a large scale in modern history... " Who is making the claim to be building socialism is obviously the Bolsheviks in this context. 172 00:16, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Then the date should be changed from the 1917 October Revolution to the 1924 rise of Stalin's power, unless your claim is that the Bolsheviks were purporting to build socialism prior to that date. If that is your claim, I again, would ask for verifiable sources.

Huh? Their goal was building socialism before Stalin's rise to power. 172 00:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Did the Bolhseviks have the goal of building socialism in Russia before Communist parties came to power in the West? I do not believe so. You may have a different opinion, and that would not be uncommon. However, commonly held views are often mistaken, (and in this case I think they are mistaken). That is why I ask for a verifiable source. (BostonMA 01:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

This point is kind of moot. Both Trotskyites and Stalinists wanted to see the revolution spread to the West, and they expected it to spread. The fact that it would not was revealed to them after the Bolshevik Revolution. Yes, they came to power in 1917 with the goal of building 'socialism' (whatever they claimed that meant to them). No one disputes this. 172 01:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps it would clarify things for me to tell you that in my opinion, the aim of the Bolshviks prior to 1924 was to build what they referred to as "the dictatorship of the proletariat", which is something quite distinct from socialism/communism. I agree that the Bolsheviks hoped to some day build socialism, but that is not the same as "... first purported effort to build socialism". Do you see? BostonMA

Yes, their view of socialism presupposed the dictatorship of the proletariat. But they were confident that the dictatorship of the proletariat would lead to the building of communism and socialism. You are right to maintain that their conceptions of the terms rendered them distinct. But I see no problem with the wording I proposed avove-- for clarity and brevity-- because it makes no reference to sequencing or time horizons. So it just skrits the issue of the discourses within Marxism at the time as to when the building of socialism was to begin. 172 02:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Your wording does indeed skirt the issue of what the Bolsheviks actually thought and said about their actions. I'm not sure that is a good thing for an article on communism. Clarity and brevity also apply to my wording. I think it is important to stick with the policy of strict accuracy and verifiable sources, because that will help to prevent bias. There is a danger, I think, that the current wording provides support for straw-man arguments against communism. Providing support for straw-man arguments, when one could just as easily be accurate gives the impression of non-NPOV. (BostonMA 02:45, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

Not to quibble with your point, I fell compelled to point out that while one can say that the text does not contradict those 'straw-man arguments agaisnt communism,' it does not support those 'straw-man arguments' per se. For a general sourcebook writing an entry on communism, describing Bolshevik rule following the October Revolution as the first attempt in modern history to build socialism on a large scale is a concise and sufficient way of making an important observation. Reference sources like Misplaced Pages are simply not expected to go into the same level of detail on Marxist discourses on revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat as (say) Encylopedia of Marxism in their entry on communism. As I keep on telling Gibby, while I think your observations are valid, there's only so much material that the general article on communism can cover, with the article being left with a reasonable word count. Meanwhile, there are literally thousands of articles on the English Misplaced Pages related to communist ideology, Communist parties, Communist regimes, and discourses on Communism that lack editors, desperately needing the kind of attention that has been devoted in the past couple of days to the talk page of this article. In sum, we can get around to better specifying the particular sentence that you're calling into question-- as soon as the article is unprotected; for now, though, we'll have to wait for the matter involving Gibby to be resolved before this article can be unlocked. 172 04:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

One significant POV is that socialism/communism was tried in Russia and failed. Another significant POV, probably a minority, is that that socialism/communism has not been tried. Stating that Russia was the first attempt to build socialism is an explicit denial of the second POV. You repeat your arguments about word count, conciseness, and avoiding detailed Marxist discourse. I think my proposed wording satisfies those concerns. It is short, concise, and does not contain detailed Marxist discourse. (It does break one long sentence into two, but that was a stylistic choice on my part). Your final point is that your proposed text "makes an important observation". The question of bias requires me to ask "who made this observation?". If it is the editor's observation, then it is original research. (BostonMA 12:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

Your final comment suggests that we table this discussion for now. I believe I have made a fair proposal for how to deal with text suspected of original research. You have not yet agreed to that proposal, but you have not made any other proposal for how we ought to procede in a way that avoids edit warring. If you do not feel that we have or can come to a consensus, perhaps we need an outside view to take a look. Please let me know what you think. (BostonMA 13:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC))

I'm not too interested in that second POV that you stated above myself, but I'll work with you in incorporating it into the text as soon as the article is unlocked. For now, though, this discussion will have to be tabled, as Gibby shows no sign of willing to be less disruptive, as we can see from the comments below. 172 15:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

OH now its about word counts? theres a new excuse? How many new excuses for deleting material you dont like can you come up with in a week?

I suggest you editors write this crap down so you can use it all at once next time you have trouble with information you dont like as opposed to this make-excuses-by-wire approach that you use right now.

Possible Solution

Since we can't seem to agree on whether to include this section or not, how about a compromise? Maybe a small section that says, in effect, that China has diverged from true communism, but let the reader go to the Maoism page for more details? --Pianohacker 15:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Given the NPOV policy, it is not Misplaced Pages's place to assert outright that anyone has 'diverged from true communism.' Still, your proposed solution is what we have had in place all along. The article already mentions the market reforms, and already links to the relevant specialized entries. 172 15:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Is this buried in the history somewhere? I couldn't find it on the current version. --Pianohacker 16:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I also was unable to find it (BostonMA 16:13, 15 December 2005 (UTC))