| Revision as of 03:23, 22 September 2009 editLudvikus (talk | contribs)21,211 edits →William Appleman Williams, Gar Alperovitz, Walter LeFeber, Howard Zinn and others: Gabriel Kolko← Previous edit | Revision as of 13:32, 22 September 2009 edit undoNorth Shoreman (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers46,519 edits →Gabriel Kolko, William Appleman Williams, Gar Alperovitz, Walter LeFeber, Howard Zinn and othersNext edit → | ||
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| These are at least the four (4) famous ] who are particularly famous, and who explicitly fall under said label. I haven't yet checked, but the article can only be justified by a substantial reference to these historians. --] (]) 03:19, 22 September 2009 (UTC) | These are at least the four (4) famous ] who are particularly famous, and who explicitly fall under said label. I haven't yet checked, but the article can only be justified by a substantial reference to these historians. --] (]) 03:19, 22 September 2009 (UTC) | ||
| :Your previous efforts to eliminate this article failed to receive any support, let alone consensus. Now you are claiming that "the article can only be justified" if it includes "substantial" discussion of people you consider relevant to the article. This is, to say the least, a unique take on wikipedia policy. While additional relevant info certainly can and should be added to the article, based on previous discussions, there is no need to reconsider whether this article should be eliminated. ] (]) 13:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC) | |||
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Additional examples?
Recent work has shown that bushido was less important than massacres by U.S. troops, for the low numbers of Japanese prisoners taken in World War II. I guess that counts as revisionism. See for example American troops 'murdered Japanese PoWs' or Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II#The_Pacific.
2 other examples could be the topic of wartime rape, as exemplified in these 2 articles.
- An ethical blank cheque (Publisher book summary available here)
--Stor stark7 03:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Guilt themes
The term "historical revisionism" in the period 1920s-1960s meant a reversal of moral judgmnent regarding wars, espe WW1, WW2, Civil War, Reconstruction, and Cold War. The term is still in use (esp regarding Cold War). The is quiote distrinct from incremental changes on the one hand, and denial (as in Holocaust denial) on the other. I added a section with complete citations to the scholarly literature. Rjensen (talk) 13:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
- these examples are no different from others, that represent an alteration of views and probably do not represent a paradigm shift (as happened several times over the interpretation of the causes of the English Civil War), however I have shifted them down to examples see what you think. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 19:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
- the war examples are entirely different, and so important that they dominated discussion of the topic for most of the 20th century. The guilt themes continue of great importance esp regarding the Cold War. They are not so much debates about new facts or methods, but debates about guilt -- as in who was guilty of starting World War I. Rjensen (talk) 19:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Definition
The definition in the lede paragraph has to be broad enough to incorporate all the examples that are given, and needs to mention historiography. So I revised and simplified it.Rjensen (talk) 20:32, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
- If you have a look at the archives you will see that the previous introduction was the result of a disagreement in April and May this year between editors. The principle dissenting editor is now blocked. So your re-write is as far as I am concerned welcome. However I think "reversal" should be replaced with "revision" (it is not always a reversal see for example interpretations of the English Civil War, and "guilt" needs to be removed from the introduction as that is not the emphasis in most cases of revision and guilt is just on facet that may be up for revision. Also that we need to add the word interpretation to the sentence "The assumption is that history as it was accepted needs significant changes." to something like "The assumption is that the interpretation of an historical event or period as it is accepted needs significant change."
- Also to follow the recommendations in WP:LEAD, the lead also needs expanding to give a one sentence summary of the major sections in the article. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 07:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'll work on the lede some more. It's awkward to define "revisionism" using the word "revision." As for guilt, well yes that is the central theme in discussions on the causes of wars. (It is not a theme in many other topics, like how well did this general perform.) I agree on the assumption is that the interpretation of an historical event or period as it is accepted needs significant change. and will change that now. Rjensen (talk) 14:39, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
FL outlawing "revisionism"
I made a few common sense changes to lead and first section. FYI - I wandered over her after finding a couple stories about Florida under Jeb Bush outlawing any kind of historical revisionism in FLorida schools a couple years back. Obviously there are more important things this article needs, like more details on some of the bigger exposes, like delay in getting info about Pearl Harbor attack to officers in charge there. (A big issue in the 1960s when I was in college.) But just in case anyone thinks it's of interest, here are couple of best sources. (Couldn't find evidence one way or other, so I don't know if it's been repealed since then):
- Revisionists, get out of Florida - Los Angeles Times
- [http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/news/2006/6/7/florida_law_banning_revisionist_history_ignores_the_past_zimmerman_writes Florida Law Banning Revisionist History Ignores the Past ...
- Out of Control: revisionist History in Florida Privatization Reason Magazine CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:46, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
NPOV
The writing in this article strikes me as very biased. The first section advocates revisionism, and attacks those who maintain status quo. The first paragraph starts with listing awards of a person (Pulitzer Prize winning), before presenting the argument the person makes. Using authority to push point of view is not the best way to argue a position. It sounds as a blatant advertisement of revisionism. An extreme example is the paragraph starting with "If there were a universally accepted view of history that never changed, there would be no need to research it further." which sounds like a plan to keep historians employed rather an argument for revisionism. I would be surprised if, for example, views expressed in the quote by David Williams were universal, especially outside United States. Boris Bukh (talk) 06:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
- I wouldn't say it was necessarily biased one way or another; I would say that it currently is narrowly framed from a historian's point of view (i.e. those who most commonly and closely deal with the subject). A different POV, less-than-adequately included, with examples, is the effect revisionism had/has on the world. Another missing aspect of the subject is notable political or traditional resistance/opposition to legitimate 'Accession of New Data'-revisionism. Certainly, the current intro paragraph is a poor implementation of WP:LEAD summarizing the rest article. Regards,CasualObserver'48 (talk) 08:05, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
- Usually historians work within a paradigm. Revisionism is linked to challenging the status quo and if they are successful a paradigm shift can be said to have occurred (and to the victor the laurels) but more often revisionist theories are rejected and those who put them forward never reach the height of their profession. If this is not clear to people who read this article then we need to add it. I agree the sentence "If there were a universally accepted view of history ..." needs changing because lots of good history can be done filling in the details of a period without it being revisionist. It is only when that detail starts to refute the overall view that a revision of the interpretation of the period may be needed. This is just as true in history as it is in the sciences. --PBS (talk) 18:23, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Gabriel Kolko, William Appleman Williams, Gar Alperovitz, Walter LeFeber, Howard Zinn and others
These are at least the four (4) famous revisionist historians who are particularly famous, and who explicitly fall under said label. I haven't yet checked, but the article can only be justified by a substantial reference to these historians. --Ludvikus (talk) 03:19, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
- Your previous efforts to eliminate this article failed to receive any support, let alone consensus. Now you are claiming that "the article can only be justified" if it includes "substantial" discussion of people you consider relevant to the article. This is, to say the least, a unique take on wikipedia policy. While additional relevant info certainly can and should be added to the article, based on previous discussions, there is no need to reconsider whether this article should be eliminated. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 13:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC)