Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:50, 25 October 2009

Note from Rmcnew

Just added in all of my evidence. I could add more specific evidence when requested. --Rmcnew (talk) 18:06, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Material posted by rmcnew on evidence page far in excess of 1000 words

This material was removed from the evidence page by the case clerk, copied here, and then further removed by the drafting arbitrator (me) and archived here. The reason I did this was because it was overwhelming this talk page. Carcharoth (talk) 21:55, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

You guys need to re-read the arbitration pages

Just a bit of advice to the involved parties. Your 'evidence' reads like a lecture and is very soft on evidence. None of you have provided the number one most important thing required for arbitrations and thats DIFFS. Long paragraphs about the other persons bias will get you nowhere if you don't have diffs proving disruption in specific circumstances. Seriously, read the arbitration pages that talk about what you should say and how to say it. Its even in the template.

{Write your assertion here} Place argument and diffs which support your assertion; for example, your first assertion might be "So-and-so engages in edit warring", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits to specific articles which show So-and-so engaging in edit warring.

For example: Saying 'his entire thesis screams original research' would qualify as an assertion, but it needs to be backed up with difs of specific edits which show this and possibly some words to put the diff into context. Saying 'Observe, he repeatedly attempts to' and then providing the Arbs with nothing to observe won't get you far. Diffs, Diffs, Diffs. 198.161.174.222 (talk) 14:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. The case clerk has since explained this to the parties, and I will repeat below what has been said. Carcharoth (talk) 21:56, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Advice to the parties presenting evidence

As the case clerk has said:

The arbs do not need a lengthy discussion on the nature of the content dispute, what they're after is evidence of actual conduct issues, preferably supported by concrete examples and diffs. Content issues should only be discussed where they're essential to understanding the background of an actionable issue. Given that your evidence at this time does not contain this, it makes it more difficult for the arbs to do a thorough examination of the issues, which can lead to delays and prevent the speedy resolution of this case.

I'm the drafting arbitrator in this case, which means I will be drafting the proposed decision. If any of the parties have questions as to what sort of evidence they should be presenting, please leave questions here and I will do my best to explain. One thing that does help is to provide timelines and other chronological context. Over the next week, I will be looking through the evidence presented in the case, will make some notes myself on other matters I see when looking through this, and will have a series of questions for the parties. If there are any questions about that, please ask. Carcharoth (talk) 22:01, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Participation of editors from the MedCab case

I have let User:Rick DeLong and User:MichaelExe know about this case and invited them to participate if they wish. Just a headsup in case anyone is confused at them posting material. Lankiveil 13:45, 17 October 2009 (UTC).

Proposition given to tcaulldig and other editors

In the event that tcaulldig agrees along with the other editors to a general concensus to follow wikipedia policy along with the other editors I will cease from persueing charges for any overreactions or misbehavior that may have come from him or other editors in relationship to the development of socionics and protoscience, pseudoscience, and esotericism. --Rmcnew (talk) 17:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

More evidence that Rmcnew is uncomprehending even of the situation. He cannot see that Arbcom is not investigating -his charges-, only the reason for the breakdown in discussion over the article.

The man demonstrates so much incompetence that he should not be allowed to edit articles in the socionics project directly, only to recommend such edits to users who have that competence.

My point is that the man lacks all common sense. He's "outside the flow" of the mainstream psychological environment shared by the rest of us. By rights he's mentally disabled. Is it possible to get a judgment against his competence to edit? Tcaudilllg (talk) 11:43, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

You do realize that calling me "incompetent" and "mentally disabled" is an ad hominem attack, which is exactly one of the main reasons that I initiated the arbcom against you. Personal attacks are not reasons unto themselves, though you seem to want to from that. And it is exactly what is going to get you banned from editing wikipedia. --Rmcnew (talk) 22:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

You seem unable to distinguish between a personal attack and an assessment of character. I recommend you take a course in critical thinking. Tcaudilllg (talk) 17:02, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

You seem to unable to distinguish that your ad hominem accusations that I am quote a "cult leader" who "wants to start his own religion" and is "mentally disabled and "incompetent" legally constitutes libel on your and that anybody who understands "critical thinking" can deduct that the logical course is that you should be banned from wikipedia for being a nuisance who causes potential legal issues with other editors, as per wikipedias ruling that would be sufficient to ban us both from wikipedia, which seems to be where this is heading. --Rmcnew (talk) 21:29, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah well you better shut your trap about "libel" because I still have the database files from the Metasocion.com forum, and witnesses who will attest to the authenticity of those records. Yes, the legacy of Metasocion.com is alive and well some place you can't reach, and I still have the ability to show people what kinda person you really are. The research is done, McNew: there is no escape.

And I know that you've got no legal recourse against me McNew, and besides these editors on here are laughing their asses off at you. You've made so many completely illogical statements over these pages, I'm sure Arbcom is more puzzled than ever as to what your "point" actually is.

At the end of the day McNew, everyone is aware that it was your edits which brought about the deletion debate and later, the medcab. You'd might as well just leave now, because I don't think it's going to turn out good for you. You can't even point at an instance in the entire history of Misplaced Pages where the defenders against the crank got turned out from Misplaced Pages. It's always the crank, always the guy with the crazy ideas who gets sanctioned and blocked. I might get a censure for the "arrogant pig" remark -- there is precedence enough --, but I've done nothing as bad as you have and certainly will not share what if precedence is any guide will be your untimely exit. The really pathetic thing though, is that you have all the information about this process at your fingertips... and you've ignored it. The classic definition of a troll, which Misplaced Pages has dealt with before and shall again.

But I'm done talking, and will await Arbcom's decision. I may introduce a few more diffs, particularly regarding the deletion debate, but otherwise I'm done with you, McNew. Tcaudilllg (talk) 01:50, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Is This Still Really Necessary?

Tcaudilllg is protecting Socionics, not the article, which is a noble cause, but no exceptions should be made regarding socionics and esotericism. All we need to do is remind Rmcnew to keep his comments shorter, and we'll review each proposed source individually. Each reliable source should receive appropriate weight in the article (as per WP:Undue, of course), and in the later conflict, the biggest problem (well, this was the problem I underlined) was deciding whether one source (this or translated) met Misplaced Pages's standards. Currently, the Socionics page isn't being edited much, and any policy or guideline violations have more or less stopped. Finally, the mention of esotericism is in the criticism section and is worded as to not force the association with esotericism upon the readers. MichaelExe (talk) 15:14, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm protecting Misplaced Pages from my own criticism. Tcaudilllg (talk) 11:45, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

But I must concur, there is little apparent reason to continue. My proposal to give Arbcom teeth on this matter hasn't been heeded, therefore I can only imagine that Misplaced Pages does not consider this a big issue. So let's just drop it. The only reason I can think of to block rmcnew is because he makes me very uncomfortable. The mere fact that he claims such things as he does -- that he asserts them in spite of evidence to the contrary -- makes me nervous. But I also know that Arbcom is a serious group that has been staffed with only the most respected people on Misplaced Pages. I have no doubt of their intellectual competence.... But I'm unconvinced that I used ad hominem against rmcnew at all. I likened him to a pig in an accurate analogy, but that's it. I do not like that he trolled the proposal I presented. I think the issue may come down to this: can rmcnew understand the meaning of Misplaced Pages's guidelines at all? Or does he even care? I think the only reason I've stuck with this is that I do feel a certain sense of responsibility to help people understand what they are dealing with in rmcnew. I think I'm going to open an rfc on him, to understand how other people view him. Tcaudilllg (talk) 16:47, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

It does not matter whether or not you are convined that you have used ad hominem, the fact stand out to others that that you have continually committed ad hominem and have generally insulted the other editors while they are cooperating with each other. You keep attempting to bring this arbcom back on me when it is actually your behavior that created the arbcom. Not my behaviour, your behavior is the one who started it. You have even gone so far as to commit ad hominem throughout this whole arbcom and you can not seem to formulate a single argument without resorting to ad hominem. I am also not the only one who you have personally attacked and insulted on wikipedia and it is a general trend with your presence, and you have been in trouble on wikipedia with this before. Misplaced Pages administration should rightly ban you from wikipedia completely for being a legal liability with your behavior. That is the key issue at hand right now.

I think the issue all comes down to this ... are you able to work with the other editors and agree to a consensus to follow wikipedias policy without dodging out of the way, attacking an editors persons with ad hominem, libelous remarks, and committing slander? You completely refuse to cooperate in a concensus agreement that 4 of the other editors have signed to follow wikipedia policy on the issue. And when it is brought up that you can sign this concensus agreement you completely avoid signing the agreement and start some ad hominem bullshit in response.The obvious answer taking this fact and the above statement is that you obviously do not want to work with the other editors and you can not seem to distinguish that your language and general dealing with other editors in the socionics article and apparently on wikipedia itself is completely unappropriated. If the ARBCOM administrators do decide to drop this case, I think they should watch your behavior closely to make sure that you are not hanging around all the time in some article and insulting other editors, as opposed to working with those editors. --Rmcnew (talk) 21:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreement with MichaelEXE

I am in agreement with MichaelEXE that arbitration is not necessary for the reasons he stated. People like Tcaullldig, Rick Delong, and other editors in to relationship to socionics are simply acting out to save face for socionics and to avoid having it being associated with an embarassing esoteric past and an obviously current esoteric applications in socionics theory. This is why they are denying that socionics has had an esoteric beginning. I still believe that the evidence stands out that socionics has roots in protosciences, pseudoscience, and esotericism that stems from eastern religions and hermeticism. I also disagree with anyone who ever claims that socionics is the least bit scientific, ever. Socionics can be rightly called anything except scientific, despite that people may try to claim that it is. It is more accurate to call socionics a mystic psychology. That is the best you can get as it definatelly can't be scientifically quanitified according to modern and western scientific standards. --Rmcnew (talk) 15:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand

On the other hand, the issue at hand had to do with user conduct and specific editors overreacting to the inclusion of information that shows socionics to be exactly what it is, an esoteric, pseudoscientific theory based upon old protosciences and outdated scientific techniques that rightly belongs in another century. And that is the flat out truth about socionics. That is of course my person opinion from what I see of the evidences, however. --Rmcnew (talk) 15:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)