Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:46, 22 December 2005

Wikistalker notice: I now have 2 Wikistalkers, after the first Wikistalker contacted someone else who I wrote a complaint about, and encouraged them to also Wikistalk me. This is suggesting that I may have no choice but to file a Request for Arbitration against these 2 users. These 2 have been following me on user talk pages, article talk pages, Misplaced Pages talk pages and Articles for Deletion so as to write negative comments about me, with the first accusing me of lying about them after I helped them out, while the 2nd is accusing me of being a meat puppet for someone who I offered to help in relation to their abuse of them. Nonetheless, I really do hope that these people do stop these actions soon, and I am hoping that if we can delete their edits that they will simply calm down and go away. Again, if you find yourself being subjected to attacks on your personal user talk page, with incredulous unproven claims being made, please can you delete it from your user page, and, if you feel that it offends you, please can you report it to the Administrator's Notice Board. Thank you for your cooperation and hopefully we can avoid this getting any worse.

You're not going to like it, but I can tell you where your recent behavior is going to lead you. You're going to wind up blocked for repeated disruptive and abusive behavior. Not by me—I'm not an admin—and most likely I'll have forgotten about you by the time it happens. But actions wind up having effects... likewise, I strongly urge you to avoid mixing bleach and ammonia in your bathtub: it would have equally predictable bad consequences for you. It's not exactly karma, but it works out in about the same way as that.

I'll assume some WP:FAITH on your part, and that you were somehow simply led badly off course. But going from talk page to talk page for the sole purpose of spreading grossly untrue and insulting accusations against me is really not good behavior. I guess your friend Poetlister asked you to do so because of what amounts to an utterly trivial editing disagreement I had with her a month ago. But that still doesn't make it cool. I edited some pages that you had spread untruths on, and you edited some pages where I had requested advice in dealing with your belligerence.... let's just accept that neither is "wikistalking" and let that drop (I apologize for using that word myself; it's unnecessary hyperbole).

So please. Right now, before you dig yourself any deeper of a hole, just apologize for the false accusations and let the matter drop. I'm willing to accept that a newbie needs to get her/his legs for WP, but the nonsense simply has to stop now. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 21:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Correction, Zordrac: you did not "help me out", you deliberately tried to incite trouble for me, and then you lied like a cheap rug about it, actually claiming that I asked you to put words into my mouth. I really, really hope you're enough of an idiot to file that RfAr because when you do I will bury you with all the evidence of your lying. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Welcome to my talk page

Hi there. Welcome to my talk page. In general, there is no need for you to write me notes in here about articles, as this can be done in the article's own talk page. I check articles regularly after editing them, to make sure that everything is cleaned up nicely. I would greatly prefer it if anyone disagrees with an edit that I have made, or an article that I have created, for them to discuss it in the article's talk page. If I do not respond to it quickly, or if the edit was from a long time ago, then please feel free to leave me a message here. Otherwise, I would prefer for it to remain there.

When writing messages here, please try to be polite, not offensive, and not threatening. I will never engage in vandalism or any activity which deliberately disrupts Misplaced Pages, and I can assure you that if you ever think that I have, then you should first talk to me and discuss it, and above all assume good faith.

If someone feels the need to revert my edits for some reason, please explain why when making your reversion, and if there is not enough space, please write in the article's talk page. I will have made the edit in good faith.

Other than that, please feel free to edit my talk page. In effect, though, this is my property (in the context of Misplaced Pages) and hence I may delete any comments that I find offensive. Thank you.

Note

I have moved all talk about Vfds to User_talk:Zordrac/deletions. Please go there to resume discussion. My own notes are in User:Zordrac/deletions :). Just to clean things up a bit.

Arbitration accepted

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Webcomics has been accepted. Please place evidence at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Webcomics/Evidence. Proposals and comments may be placed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Webcomics/Workshop. Fred Bauder 22:53, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your message to me about my article. I am a little disheartened with Misplaced Pages as I had (somehow) gained the impression that it was an encyclopedia of things-that-stick-out. I'm a little unclear of what Misplaced Pages is now and because of the moron who messed up my record I can't have a credible record on this site either. I would be much more disheartened however if you hadn't written the message, so thanks. Sorry to write again (it must be annoying to keep going back and forth) but in reply to your message. I don't think I'll be joining Misplaced Pages but thanks again for taking the time out to give advice to a random IP address. I'm sure the 'abrupt' side of Misplaced Pages I just saw doesn't reflect the rest of its members. --81.109.204.222 09:50, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

The Ubie

Just a note that the prior AfD was vandalized by the same person that recreated The Ubie and voted twice on the current AfD; the original results were 4 deletes and 1 keep. I have since reverted that AfD to what it was at the time the discussion was closed. Peyna 23:33, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mamnuts

Hi, I fixed your AfD nomination per your request. The proper syntax to use is:

{{subst:afd2 | pg=Name of page | text=Some text here.}} ~~~~

Your basic problem was that you had "))" instead of "}}" after the text, breaking the template syntax. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, sorry you had probems with that entry, good to see it's been sorted out now. Funny stuff does seem to happen sometimes with the daily AfD log page. I've had problems like that myself that I've been unable to sort out, in spite of following the instructions exactly. There is sometimes talk of simplifying the AfD procedure: let's hope it happens soon. Flapdragon 23:52, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Tzmerth shmarya

Hey Zordrac,

I noticed your question as I was closing AfDs. Yes, articles are often renominated for deletion. That is acceptable. The article was kept last time on a conditional keep (cleanup). It was never cleaned up and now renominated. It has now failed AfD and I just deleted it. Thought you might want to know. Let me know if you need help with anything else. -- Psy guy 00:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Guide to Humanity

Thank you for your support on the guide to humanity. Please help me get the ball rolling on this project; help me expand this. Thanks - Ewok Slayer

Here. Try this ] ] , and

Looks like this - Zordrac (Talk) Darwikinist, wishy washy and Eventualist

Your sig

Ahhh, do something to clean that thing up, it hurts my eyes =] Shorter is better. Perhaps just put short one letter links to each of your characteristics and drop the "is a" and "and". Peyna 03:53, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Looks better; thanks =] Peyna 04:20, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Q about Sig and Philosophies

Copied from User talk:Psy guy

I don't see anything wrong with having more than one philosophy either. However, I would caution you about having a complicated signature. Some users frown on that because they take up so much space. Also, I don't know if I understand the last question: "manually copy and paste ...?" If I were you I could at least make the philosophies small in my signature and use transwiki markup rather than external links. Check out the following:

Zordrac • talk (Darwikinist • wishy washy • Eventualist)

That is a little cleaner. To say you from open the edit tab, here is the code for it: ] • ] <small>(] • ] • ])</small>

As for the "banners" .... I assume you mean the userboxed like what are the the top and right of my user and talk page. They are fairly simply to recreate. You are welcome to copy one into my sandbox and change the image and text and play around with userbox formatting if you want to. If you need help, just let me know. -- Psy guy 04:06, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Zordrac • (talk) Wishy Washy • Darwikinian • Eventualist 04:11, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

test Zordrac • (talk) Wishy Washy • Darwikinian • Eventualist 04:12, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

If you don't want to be copying and pasting your sig all the time, go to "my preferences" and copy your sig code into the nickname box and check the raw sig box. Misplaced Pages will insert the code for you every time it sees ~~~~ (4 tidly winks)--Ewok Slayer --(User | Talk | Contribs) 04:18, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Let's see. Zordrac • (talk) Wishy Washy • Darwikinian • Eventualist Zordrac • (talk) Wishy Washy • Darwikinian • Eventualist 04:22, 2 December 2005 (UTC)~~ 04:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Try again. Zordrac • (talk) Wishy Washy • Darwikinian • Eventualist 04:22, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I didn't like the dots. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 04:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Glad you got it working. Sorry, I didn't understand what you meant by "copy and paste." There are a lot of cool things to play with in the prefs. See you around. -- Psy guy 05:18, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

well done

glad to see you've stuck it out. grats on your AfD's. ∴ here…♠ 07:53, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/December 13, 1981

I've placed an explanation about 12-31, which you may find useful. - Mgm| 11:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Uh, thanks?

No really, the only thing I can truely offer to the WP community is my honesty. I just read the last few posts to your user page, and I'd like to offer any assistance that I can. If there is ever a vote, or AfD that you'd like to have my opinion on, just leave a link to it on my talk page. The one thing about opinions is, sometimes you (or potentially anybody) might not like it. But, barring bigotry, or more personally, any comment that contradicts the Ontario Human Rights Code (my personal standard for correspondance in WP, in addition to appropriate codes of conduct outlined in Misplaced Pages pages), I am willing to agree to disagree, and still retain respect for individual editors. So, as an editor that I have had no prior contact with in the past, I remain in hope that we can work together here in Misplaced Pages, the most important online information resource. See you 'round the Wiki! Hamster Sandwich 02:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

You have a point about debates degenerating into name calling, nasty and sometimes neither side of the debate comes out looking particularly good. Thats the nature of a community of strong willed individuals. My personal opinion concerning the use of sockpuppets and user accounts which seem constructed simply to push a particular POV or opinion, are rather spurious sources. I would disregard them out-of-hand. On the other hand, a well constructed and presented debate would sway my own opinion in certain instances. If citations are correct (and reletively easy to check) I tend to go with the weight of evidence presented, by reliable sources. I must add this, I think your study of deletions in AfD is weighted to skew the result you are arriving at. Junk articles, and articles that do not cite sources, or meet established criteria for inclusion, or that do meet criterion for deletion, are the articles most likely to end up at AfD! Heres a suggestion, compare your result with articles that included into the knowledge base at WP on a day to day basis. The number of daily article edits that are kept vs. the number of ones put up for deletion, vs. the number actually kept as opposed to deleted. I personally have no idea how to do such a thing, but you seem to be fairly handy in that direction. My thinking, offhand and without qualification is that the vast majority of edits are ultimately kept, beacause they are good edits, good artciles. The best of the best so to speak are going to survive an AfD debate at any rate because, primarily they have met a certain standard, by the same token, a few are going to survive because only certain editors may be technically qualified to comment on the article (I stay away from techie stuff myself) and a few are going to survive because a group of editors are going to carry an agenda into the debate. I have no agenda's other than to protect the Misplaced Pages as a credible resource, to the average person who references the site. If you wish to continue this coorespondence, please let me know if you want to write here, or on my page so as to preserve continuity. Thanks! Hamster Sandwich 03:00, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

To make it simpler, and because someone else commented on your talk page, I'll answer this here. First up, congratulations, you are officially a Darwikinist per your statement above, "...is that the vast majority of edits are ultimately kept, beacause they are good edits, good artciles. The best of the best so to speak are going to survive an AfD debate..." You might want to consider joining the Darwikinism movement, as I did. Personally, I have joined 3 different movements, just to be difficult! You might find some others that are more suitable. Anyway, I would agree with you that probably less than 5% of articles are ever put up for deletion. Indeed, I would suggest that, if articles were put up for deletion randomly, then the average vote in fact would be about 5% of the time for delete, rather than currently which is somewhere between 55-80% average (depending on which statistic you use). However, per my arguments above, if we were to do this, it would be a good thing! If people were able to regularly see all of the good articles that are out there, then they might have a more positive approach. It'd be nice if we voted for delete on all articles, and then said "Oh wow, isn't this article wonderful?" instead of all of the negativeness that comes in. Why don't we put Ronald Reagen up for AFD? Indeed, some of the articles I have seen on AFD have been wonderful. Whilst they were almost exclusively kept, some of them were not, sadly, predominantly because of negative attitudes. The contentious article that was recently deleted, of Sholom Keller, was a wonderfully well written article, yet was deleted after a 6/6 vote. I know that there are arguments about his true notoriety - after all, he wasn't interviewed all that often, and a lot of people contend that he wasn't really important - but there can be no debate about how well written the article was. It was one of the best written articles I have seen. But such things are occasionally steam rolled. I think its because some people are having a bad day and want a pick-me-up, or else perhaps in retaliation for them being abused by others in the deletion process previously. There have been studies within the armed forces about this kind of thing, where emotional abuse leads to emotional abuse as a kind of escape. Similar kinds of behaviours are prevalent within some US university houses (the ones with the greek letters, I mean - sorry, off hand I forget what they are called). And perhaps you are right that my opinion is skewed. But of course it is! But all opinions are always skewed. I do not attempt to pretend that my opinion is neutral when it is about something that I care about. When it is something that I couldn't care less about, then my opinion is fairly neutral. For example, Sholom Keller I couldn't care less about, hence my opinion is neutral in terms of the article, since he is really only relevant to American readers. However, from the point of view of the process, my view is that it should be kept. I put it up for undeletion, and I hope that that is what happens. I think that there is a clear case of lack of process. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 03:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

the american college societies of brothers are called fraternities. See Animal House. --Metarhyme 17:49, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

yeah. For some reason I can remember the name sororety but not fraternity off hand. Maybe if I'd ever been to america I might be more knowledgeable about its culture. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 17:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Note

I have moved some parts of this page over to User_talk:Zordrac/deletions partially because it was getting me down and I don't want to have to look at it all the time, but partially because it was talking about deletions. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 11:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank You

Thank you very much for your advice.

--Papist 16:34, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: Help with Vfd nom for Skybluz

That artricle is clearly a speedy delete as a recreation of a deleted article. Placing the speedy tag on it. And by the way if you want to renominate a article on afd use subst:afd2 . Thanks --Aranda ) 18:32, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Darkwars

Uncle G has a point, you know. Forums and web directories are easily abused by people trying to linkspam their forum, game or website just like Misplaced Pages is. Why do you think the sites you cited on this particular AFD are reliable? - Mgm| 20:30, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I just did a google search. But the site is a notable site. I could go through and bother to go through hundreds of links, but it really shouldn't be necessary. You don't get that many links. And remember that this is not a forum - its an online game. How about I look it up in tucows for you?

And uncle g has no right to abuse me in that manner. He can have his opinions, and that's fine, but he can tone down his behaviour. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 20:32, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

AfD and hostility toward newbies

I applaud you trying to convince AfDers not to bite newbies -- as I said elsewhere, it's a valiant effort, and I tried it once. The problem is that AfD has become more than a process; it's a subculture that has different ideals than the rest of Misplaced Pages.

AfD makes people lose perspective. They see all the newbies who are wrong, and who use sockpuppets and recruit meatpuppets, and they assume that all newbies are puppets who are wrong. If you try to argue, you get wrapped up in some debate that's internal to AfD that was unrelated to your point, like deletionism or inclusionism.

The way to fix AfD, I think, is to have fewer things end up there. Would you like to help with deletion reform?

But keep fighting the good fight if you think you can change AfD. I applaud your effort.

rspeer 21:49, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

AfD

Please reconsider your decision here. As I mention there, I don't think Transwikifying is even possible. Aucaman 06:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks for the prompt reply! It seems like we essentially agree, but I don't see how the article can be expanded in an encyclopedic way (that's the point I was trying to make).

CP vandalism.

You're welcome. Frankly, that whole topic area seems sort of small and esoteric to me, but it seems like consensus exists for that material to be there and I can't cite any rules that would categorically deny it. It's in, so removing it is vandalism, and nobody likes vandalism. Eh-heh-heh. Tom Lillis 07:57, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I see nothing inherently inappropriate about AfD-nominating something that was primarily your work. I'd almost suggest just turning it into a redirect yourself, but if you're more comfortable with the AfD process, that's perfectly fine. Tom Lillis 09:08, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of commenting on the request for protection and the larger liberty of nominating the page for deletion. This whole affair is just not good, and a deletion is probably the healthiest way to resolve it. Tom Lillis 03:28, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: Consensus vs community decision - Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Impaled_Northern_Moonforest

Consensus = community decision, IMO. This seems to be just pointless nitpicking to me — while consensus is not a supermajority, it is not unanimity either. Johnleemk | Talk 00:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Never mind, it's all right. Precisely defining consensus is often difficult and troublesome. You might want to check out wikipedia:Consensus. Johnleemk | Talk 00:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

PoE bad faith AFD nom

I am very sad that the vandals that have been attacking my talker articles have now made a bad faith AFD on PoE. I had spent so much time working on those articles. Whilst I don't know what the policy is, they have said that they can get all of their friends to create accounts so as to make sure that it gets deleted. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 00:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about it. New accounts are generally noted as such on AfD and taken into account. Further, the article was just nominated, as I noted on the AfD entry. No doubt it will be kept, and discussion should continue on the talk/article pages themselves. ∴ here…♠ 01:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I am not overly worried about it. They said themselves that they found the page (CP) and decided to edit it so as to promote their site. But that's not what Misplaced Pages is for! They say that they don't want bad things said about them. Well, nor does Michael Jackson. Same kind of issue, as far as I am concerned. A few of them created accounts purely so as to vandalise the page and more so as to vote on the deletion. In effect, their reason to nominate the article for deletion is so as to prove their point that their talker is better than another talker, in other words disrupting wikipedia to prove a point. I am just trying to stay away from the whole thing until it blows over. I think it is pretty likely it'll result in a speedy keep, but if it goes through the entire process, well, that's fine. I have most of the history of talkers written now. Its just sad that these people couldn't contribute something worthwhile. They were just the kind of people I wanted to help to edit these articles. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 01:42, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Preachin to the choir ;) ∴ here…♠ 02:22, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: Rachel Owen

Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention! Yes, in the heat of closing AfDs, I closed it as a Delete but then went on to remove the AfD notice on the article as if it were a Keep... I appreciate your integrity! Making sure the process is followed even when the vote is against you is truly admirable. Owen× ☎ 02:30, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd be fascinated to see the results of your analysis! A few months ago someone did a large scale analysis of AfD ("VfD" at the time), to figure out what were the actual consensus thresholds of various closing admins. The results were quite interesting, although it is sometimes difficult to figure out which votes were discarded as sockpuppets in some cases, possibly biasing the numbers. One of the impressions I get is that a "highly-wikified" article on non-notable or unverified subject is more likely to be kept than an ugly, unwikified article about a notable subject. If you could give a subjective score to this quality and calculate its correlation with the AfD outcome, we may get a confirmation of this theory.

I've noticed that you tend to be on the "Keep" side more often than most. When closing AfDs, I look for every possible way to escape an actual deletion, within the limits of consensus, of course. If, when you vote Keep, you could also provide an alternate "Redirect to" option, it would often give me an easy way to avoid deleting, especially if someone seconds your idea. If you vote early enough, others are likely to follow your lead. Redirects are cheap, and allow non-admins to retrieve text from the history.

You may also be interested in scanning CAT:CSD on a regular basis. I find that many articles are incorrectly nominated for Speedy deletion. CSD:G1 and CSD:G4 are two major offenders, although in many cases no reason is provided at all. Regrettably, some admins do not apply much scrutiny to those nominations, and I often see articles speedied improperly. When I check CAT:CSD, I usually end up removing speedy notices and changing deficient articles to a redirect as often as I do deleting them. You too are authorized to do that; it is perfectly legitimate to remove an incorrect speedy notice if you provide a valid reason. When in doubt, replace it with an AfD. I don't want to load our AfD pages with every speedy in sight, but many good stubs get lost daily to an often indiscriminant CSD process. Owen× ☎ 03:09, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Shanna_Compton

Not petty at all! AfD is a delicate process, and I appreciate your feedback. I am not infallible, and having you audit my work is an excellent way to find any mistakes I made. Don't hesitate to bring any other such cases to my attention! Owen× ☎ 03:17, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

As to consensus thresholds, I wouldn't be comfortable deleting an article with a mere 2:1 consensus. Therefore, it is only fair that I also close a 2:1 Keep as a "No consensus", although in that case the practical outcome is the same. The total number of votes also matters: two-thirds of 30 votes is statistically significant, while two-thirds of 12 votes probably isn't. Owen× ☎ 03:28, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_political_epithets

I counted the votes again, and this time got 15 "Keep", instead of the 14 I said when I closed. However, on your page you claim there are 17 Keep votes. Did I miss anything? Again, this wouldn't change the outcome, but I'm interested in your feedback. Owen× ☎ 03:52, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

My head got dizzy. I don't think that it makes much difference. I will go back and change it if its wrong. This is taking me a while to do. :) Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 04:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I counted 16, which is 15 if you ignore the anon (I am including the anon since I can't see any reason why we would assume that they are a sock puppet). Anyway, yeah, I will amend it to 16. I did the count before the voting closed anyway. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 04:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Not a sockpuppet? I disagree. The entire history of this anon consists of 3 edits, of which two are minor additions to the article itself and the third is a vote on the AfD. All three edits were done in a span of 6 minutes. Do you really think this is a new editor who happened to stumble on this page and then decided to vote? As a minimum, this is a meat-puppet who was invited to participate. If I saw a registered user with the same edit history I would also ignore his vote. This may not be enough evidence to go and block someone for sockpuppetry, but it's more than enough for most admins to ignore a vote.

Regarding anon votes, on RfA we simply ignore them. On AfD we are more accepting, but generally I only consider the ones which are clearly established editors. If it is a dynamic IP, as evidenced by large gaps in the history or varying editing styles, I only look at the last batch of edits. All in all, I think more harm is done by taking anon votes into account than by ignoring them in bulk. Even the non-sock voters usually have a very poor understanding of our inclusion criteria, and their votes are often personal testimonials as to their familiarity with the subject matter, rather than its encyclopedic value. Owen× ☎ 13:27, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

AFD bot

I noticed that you have an AFD bot that automatically puts the entire contents of articles listed for AFD in to a subsection of your user page. This is very useful I am sure. But who uses it? And why isn't such a thing maintained on an official site somewhere? Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 19:04, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

1) I don't know who uses it. 2) It has been traditionally placed there. The previous user before me also placed it under a subpage of his userspace. --AllyUnion (talk) 07:25, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Huh? The previous user before you? Do you mean that there was another AllyUnion before you? Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 09:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Anthony DiPierro ran a bot to update a similar listing at User:Anthony DiPierro/Current VfD, and I just took over the job. --AllyUnion (talk) 09:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

User talk:168.174.253.221

Hi Zordrac,

I came across the above-mentioned talkpage and saw your message.

You may be comforted to know that I do share the same views with you on how newcomers are treated. But I'd assume good faith that the community isn't as xenophobic as it seems. There are fellow sysops that I know who are more than happy to actually welcome newcomers into the family of Wikipedians.

BTW, there is a page on Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers (a guideline, but not policy) as well.

- Cheers, Mailer Diablo 20:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC) :)

Re: Sock puppetry

Mass anon attacks on an article or an AfD can be very frustrating. When there is a clear violation of 3RR, you should get an admin to act. I'm online almost every evening, and would be happy to get involved. If there is no clear violation, it's best to get a few people familiar with the subject to take a look. A quick look at the major contributors for related articles is usually a good place to find such editors. With suspected socks on AfDs, add your observations below the offending voter, e.g., "Anon's 2nd edit after 3 weeks of inactivity. Tried to remove this note twice.". It is OK to revert as many times as needed to correct vandalism on an AfD, but a quick note on WP:AIV or on my Talk page would usually get that vandal blocked.

Which brings me to my next topic: would you be interested in adminship? I think you are more than ready for it, and I'd be proud to nominate you. I believe we would all benefit from letting you delete, undelete, and block when needed. Let me know, and I'll set it up this evening (EST). Owen× ☎ 20:24, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

One dollar Federal Reserve Note

I noticed the deletion debate here has fizzled somewhat, but I made some changes to the articles that may further illustrate the points I had been trying to make. Please take a look and let me know what you think. Paul 23:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

response re Ti Tree

All towns/cities (except some capitals) in Australia should have the state/territory added to the article name, with a redirect or disambig at the plain name. Utopia is not in List of postcodes in the Northern Territory, which I normally use as a guide. If it has over 1000 people and is famous for its art, it probably deserves an article.

I have redirected Ti Tree to Tea tree, as that's what I thought of first of the name. I of course added Ti Tree, Northern Territory to the things in the disambig list at Tea tree. --Scott Davis 03:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

If I entered "Ti Tree", I'd expect to be redirected to Leptospermum, as that's how I thought the plant was spelt. As Tea tree is already a disambig page, I figured the best solution was to put all meanings of Ti Tree, Tea Tree, Tea tree and Ti tree together there. --Scott Davis 02:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Girafa

Thanks for the heads-up. Someone recreated it after I speedied it. (Argh.) FreplySpang (talk) 16:56, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Talker articles

I can easily understand your frustration. We have lost many good editors due to orchestrated attacks on their article by people with an ulterior motive. You do raise a few troubling issues, though:

• Making legal threats is against our policy: Misplaced Pages:No legal threats. Can you provide diffs of those threats? Most admins would be quick to act on such violations.
• WP:3RR is also a policy. There has been some talk about expanding the definition to include "meat puppets" – groups of editors acting as a team. If the pattern is obvious, most admins would block the offenders.
• Unexplained blanking of portions of an article is considered vandalism, especially if done more than once, after the issue was brought up on the article's Talk page. If an explanation is provided, this becomes a content dispute.
• I think merging the articles is a good way to go. As a minimum, you'd be bringing the content into higher traffic pages, where you are more likely to get neutral editors to participate in the discussion, and help you resist blanking and deleting by POV pushers.
• You can easily find out whether someone is an admin here; an admin would show up with "(sysop)" next to his name, like so.
• Review Misplaced Pages:Protection policy. When edit wars get out of hand, we sometimes use this feature. It's not a secret; many non-admins frequently ask for it on Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection.

Get me or any other admin involved when you spot violations such as the ones I mentioned. As an Eventualist, you know that the truth will prevail. Hope this helps! Owen× ☎ 19:27, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Just a note to thank you for the great work on expanding the Talker article, it was sorely in need of expansion. I think there's lots more that could be added but the trouble is that its hard to verify independently of our own knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.28.247.235 (talk • contribs)

• If you looked at the references, there are about 100 different references. Whilst they only represent one point of view, they are nonetheless references. It would be useful to have references to represent the other point of view, but to date I have been unable to source them. If they exist, then it would be very useful. It's certainly not original research though, as you can see from the references. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 00:26, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of asking Shinmawa to work with you on the merge process for the talker articles. He is willing if you are, and I think a joint effort would probably produce the most neutral and content-valuable final result. I'd ask that you get in touch with him about this one way or the other, as it would probably go a long way to healing rifts created by this process.

Best of luck and happy editing. Tom Lillis 05:25, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I see that much of the work is done and it looks great to me, but I'd like to head off any future potential conflicts by having a member of the talker world discuss some of the changes with you and make sure that a mutually agreeable product is put out there for public consumption. I hate toxicity on the Wiki and this just seems like a good way to prevent that while upholding the collaborative model.

Again, as far as I can tell the merge job is fantastic, but after the divisive process we've just gone through, I think it's only fair that we go as far as possible to be inclusionary. Tom Lillis 05:40, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that. I'm not asking for you to cede to his every demand--I'm just suggesting that you talk to him and solicit his feedback. I was as aggressively for the deletion as you were, remember. I just think very much that the issue is not going to go away with the merges and the (inevitable) deletion; also, those actions don't exclude the other participants from further editing. I'm a hardcore deletionist when it comes to material. I am an inclusionist when it comes to editor participation--especially editors who can make valuable contributions and especially when it might ease some bruised working relationships and foster a stronger sense of community. I'm obviously nobody to force you to do anything, but I think it would be a powerful and "right" gesture to work with him a bit. That's all. Tom Lillis 06:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Talkers et alii

The subject matter is not something I'm familiar with (even though I was using Relay for AberMud back in 1987) so I'll need to actually look over the articles before I can form any clear thoughts on them in paticular. However, as to redirects and merging, I can comment with some authority that no authority is required. Be bold and do it, of course staying cool if someone disagrees.
I'll comment more after I get a chance to do my research, eh?
brenneman 00:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Crystal Palace (chat site) and related issues

I've posted my reply here. Owen× ☎ 02:13, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your help!

Thanks for your support on the request for protection of Odin! Wighson 00:35, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I am not sure what my adminship has to do with anything, as I haven't even as much as referred to it in this case, let alone made use of my privileges. Nor was I aware that you were following the "discussion", nor do I believe we have met. Nor do I quite see how demanding protection of an article is compatible with demanding its being rewritten (but I realize from the "discussion" that Wighson has issues with elementary predicate logic, so we'll let that pass). But I have obliged you in putting a note on the admin board, at this point, as I don't care too much to have a vote on my character conducted on article talkpages; you are free to team up with Wighson in an RfC against me, of course, where, unlike on Talk:Odin such comments will actually be on topic. It goes without saying that I deny all of Wighsons ten claims about my behaviour, and I actually claim points 6 to 8 apply to W himself. dab (ᛏ) 17:18, 9 December 2005 (UTC) -- I apologize, I was under the impression that you posted you comment to Talk:Odin, where it was misleadingly placed by Wighson . I realize now that you were only replying to WP:RFP, without taking sides, after W put up a flurry of ludicrous misstatements. Sorry to have drawn you into this. dab (ᛏ) 17:38, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you..

For the support of the Bitties article. You are a true hero, but too many disagreed. One day, Bitties will be a real word!

Mo0's RFA

Could you please explain how Mo0's talk page getting vandalised means that he is unsuitable for being an admin? "Reaching peace" with vandals is very very rare; all we can do in most cases is remove the vandalism and hope they go away. Most vandal-fighters have their user page or talk page attacked frequently, if anything it's probably a good sign as it means that they are annoying a lot of vandals.

Also, it's fantastic that you have got such a lot of edits in so short a time, but I'd have to say that no-one I've seen is anywhere near as active as you have been, so opposing Mo0 for having less edits than you isn't really fair. I've been here since July and I only have half the edits you have, and I'd say Mo0 has an average number of edits for an admin candidated. I urge you to reconsider, or at least further explain, your vote. Raven4x4x 09:27, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

• I'll reply on the RFA page as you've also posted there. I'll just say that I share your concerns about how hard it is to remove someone from adminship. There are people who feel that Bureaucrats should be able to de-admin people as they are the ones that promote them. I think the reason why that was voted down was that very few admins have actually needed to be removed. Using Mo0 as an example, a user who has spent as much time as he has reverting vandalism is unlikely to start adding it. Raven4x4x 09:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Zachary Soza

He was just one of many actors in Barney, and anything more than a mention of his role in the show would be irrelevant to the article. Therefore, for the purposes of the article it was agreed to redirect his article to, he was an inconsequential actor. Johnleemk | Talk 10:51, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Pebbles for People

Consensus is not indicated by a vote. It's indicated by a debate. (This is why Votes for Deletion was renamed Articles for Deletion.) The debate clearly indicated the article should be deleted. There was good reason to suspect at least two of the keep voters were sockpuppets, and the article itself was unverifiable. And besides, what kind of charity donates pebbles? Clearly a hoax. Such discretion is why if a hundred people vote to keep a copyvio and only one person votes to delete (but proves beyond all doubt the article's copyvio status), the article is deleted. Johnleemk | Talk 10:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Friday Harbor High School

10 to 4 is not consensus; most people won't settle for anything less than 80% as consensus, and even then, the definition of consensus is quite fluid and varies from person to person. Johnleemk | Talk 11:08, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

You have not read the page properly. Please see the template at the top: "It illustrates standards of conduct, which many editors agree with in principle. However, it is not policy." As for Pebbles for People, for the last time, there is no agreement on what constitutes consensus. (If I wanted to be funny, I'd say there is no consensus on consensus.) Refer to my example of the copyvio above. 100 invalid keep votes versus 1 valid delete vote = consensus. Johnleemk | Talk 11:17, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

That's the (un)fortunate truth. Deal with it. Every AfD closure is at the admin's discretion. And this is pointless nitpicking anyhow - you're not questioning any of the decisions, are you? You're just questioning the terminology I used. Johnleemk | Talk 11:23, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Daniel Hirst

There is a precedent for userfying pages of marginally notable individuals when those pages flout WP:AUTO, even if nobody nominates it for userfication. I can't think of any specific examples offhand, but I recall a few instances of similar closures being made by other admins over the time I've been keeping up with AfD, and at least one instance of a speedy userfication where the closing admin userfied the page less than 24 hours after the page was nominated for AfD. → Ξxtreme Unction {ł_blah} 15:21, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Edit counting

Replying to the discussions on RfA/Mo0 and my user page.

I'm sorry, I did not mean to offend you. You've certainly done a large amount work, and I'm very glad you're contributing to Misplaced Pages.

Perhaps I should have expanded my reasoning a bit. 1) According to other people's standards for RfA, 1500-2500 edits is not all that uncommon of a standard. 2) Edit counting is a tricky thing, and doubly so if you want to compare two people's edit counts. Usually on an RfA, most people don't go strictly by the edit count, but also comb through their history to make sure most of those edits are of good quality. As Misplaced Pages:Editcountitis points out, there are all number of ways in which specific edits can be lower or higher quality than others. 3) To some extent, RfA is harsh on the nominees. You were comparing your edit count to the nominee's, and I subsequently decided to be harsh about your edit history. Perhaps that wasn't correct, because it wasn't your RfA (and especially because I did it right before going to bed, and without more than a cursory examination). 4) People use different standards for voting (discussing) on RfA, sometimes wildly so, and you're absolutely entitled to your standard. Though it's usually better to look at their edit history, and explain your qualitative analysis, rather than relying soley on raw numbers from a tool. --Interiot 17:54, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Removing valid comments from this page

Zordrac, I think it was a poor choice to remove comments from this talk page. Splash is a valued member of our community, and if you'd rather not respond to him, the least you can do is leave his comments untouched. None of the text you removed constitutes a personal attack. Your action looks particularly questionable coming less than a week after you chastised another editor for doing exactly the same. Please reconsider. Owen× ☎ 23:45, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I took it as a personal attack, very much so. I also responded to it in its appropriate place in another forum, where he wrote the exact same thing, but as less of a personal attack. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 23:47, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't consider my comment to fall anywhere near the examples laid out in WP:NPA. Perhaps you should reconsider what you consider to be a personal attack as compared to criticism. Peyna 00:11, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

It was invalid and inaccurate. You stated that I spend all of my time complaining about things instead of writing articles, which is simply not true, and is not a valid explanation for why people are nasty occasionally. Hence it was something that I consider to be an untrue statement veiled as a personal attack, and I do not want it on my page thank you. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 00:13, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Have it your way; however, you ought to assume good faith. I was merely suggesting that there may be another reason for why you don't receive "positive" comments on your talk page as opposed to your apparent belief that everyone on Misplaced Pages hates you. Your attitude regarding my comment reinforces my original comment. Peyna 00:15, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

You also have mischaracterized my comment completely. Re-read what I wrote. Perhaps you saw something there that wasn't there based upon your own assumptions. Peyna 00:16, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Deletion reform is not the "appropriate" forum — my talk page and/or yours is (if you don't want to use Deletion review straight off). My manner of closing AfDs doesn't have anything much to do with deletion reform at all, particularly since, if deletion were reformed, one supposes my present closure methods would become obsoleted by definition. -Splash 00:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

So I am in trouble for trying to help people out? Great. Or am I supposed to just say "Hey, no problems, I'll just let you bash me for it, no problems." Sheesh. Its not my fault how some people react to me trying to help them. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 00:44, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Revert Raider

Hey, yeh I spend a lot of my down-time scouring Misplaced Pages for vandals. I don't really have much down-time, though, so perhaps you can appreciate the speed with which I do it :-). JHMM13 (T | C) 03:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Barnstar

Hello!

I saw your notice at the very end of your userpage, and decided to fix that. Here's a Barnstar for you. I hope you don't get too stressed-out over whatever is troubling you on Misplaced Pages right now. Take a Wikibreak, if you must, but come back. You are valuable. -- MegamiX 06:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

"Cleanup" as an AFD option.

I don't like to use the "cleanup" option because I'm told some closing admins treat it as an unconditional "keep" instruction, whereas I look at it as "Keep iff cleaned up, otherwise delete". Same when I give a merge (or more typically smerge) instruction: "Keep selected information iff moved to another article, otherwise delete". So while cleanup is a legitimate option, it's one I don't often use because I don't feel it necessarily expresses my opinion explicitly enough. The Literate Engineer 16:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I went in and gave it some cleanup. Mind you, it could probably use more, but that's as much time as I'm going to spend on a pornsite article. The Literate Engineer 18:08, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

v.

Hi. Regarding your AfD vote in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/McCleskey v. Kemp, in U.S. cases, the "v" is invariably followed by a period 481 U.S. 279 (see this case report, for example). I believe this differs from country to country, but U.S. cases are named by U.S. rules. Cheers! BDAbramson T 20:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

• Greetings. Per your questions - indeed, in Australian cases, there is no period after the v (but in the U.S. there always is). Just a small matter of style, I guess. As to your second question, I am a legal practitioner, specializing in intellectual property law. Thanks for asking! BDAbramson T 16:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Brandi Lyons

Awwww. Of all the things wrong with that page, you picked that? Where's your sense of humor? Herostratus 16:39, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Peter Falconio

I've been watching the case, but was not particularly keen on updating things that are sub judice, regardless of whether or not I would be allowed to (although to be fair I think I remember updating Soham murders cautiously during the trial - at least in that case there were bodies). I think it's unlikely he'll 'fess up at this point. Morwen - Talk 14:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

This is why I like the idea of truth and reconcilation. Morwen - Talk 14:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know, but certainly with the Moors Murders, there are still kids left buried in unknown places, and others that nobody's sure if they were victims, and that saddens me. Morwen - Talk 14:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Re Nonsense

I've never looked at it like that before but I always respond on the other person's talk page - saves bandwidth and makes sure they always receive my message. -- Francs2000 14:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I did see what you were getting at. -- Francs2000 14:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Shpants

Zordrac, Thanks for your note. I nominated the Shpants article for a speedy delete under the criteria of re-creation of a deleted article. From the discussion, the conclusion in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Shpants was delete, not redirect. I was surprised to see it recreated, even as a redirect. As you noted in a December 1 comment, "...rewrote page. it is valid, but shouldn't be called shpants, as that is not the notable form of the word." ERcheck 11:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• Actually, I count 4 deletes, 1 delete or redirect ("if must"), 1 move+redirect, 1 rename (which was done)+ 1 move, and a number of comments. (See the vote here --> Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Shpants.) As you noted, it is not a notable form of the word. -- ERcheck 11:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

That is 4 redirects and 4 deletes - 3 of the 4 deletes were based on the original article - the ONLY delete that was based on the improved article was yours. Ergo, consensus to redirect. Its silly really that you push to speedy delete something when you were the only one who nominated it for delete. You should just accept the views of the majority. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 11:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Brandt

Thanks for your note. I accidentally stumbled on the case just today, and am always interested in things that affect wikipedia but also internet freedom, something Brandt doesn't seem to like while I place a great value on it. I have added that actually it is the ISP's who insist on anonymity for their clients not wikipedia. I did also read someone saying that instead of doing the hard work to promote his site at Google he just started criticising them, perhaps it is all just a subtle way of generating self-publicity and making money, as the article suggests. While I am all in favour of people making money if they work hard to do so at the expense of internet freedom is atrocious, IMO, and I will certainly be keeping a watch on this character, SqueakBox 15:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Well perhaps that should be made clearer in the article. As I say I never heard of him till this morning so I could well be confused. I notice he seeks out anonymous editors whereas you openly proclaim your anonymity, so I am not quite sure what your take on the whole affair is either, so keep responding, SqueakBox 16:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

My RFA

I am honored by your comments and support in my RFA. It is becoming increasingly rare and I thank you. I will not forget it.Gator (talk) 19:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Wow, thanks for your words! I would be honored if you would put some or all of them on the RFA page (or in its talk page). There is a lot of one0sided talk on this right nwo adn its hurting me. I could use all the help I can get right now. Wow, thanks again. I was depressed amd am still bummed, but feel a lot better because of you. Thanks again. You humbled me. :)Gator (talk) 19:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

That's cool. Just the comments I suppose, especially the recent ones. I apologized and have out it behind me. I had hoped that others had too, but am surprised by how many people still have so much ill will about the entire ugly episode. I made some mistakes but I've learned and moved on. My edits since then prove it. But I guess I need to pay my dues for what I did. Thanks again.19:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

My RfB

Hi Zordrac!

I think you may have misunderstood my actions on Misplaced Pages, and as such I have replied to your oppose vote. I am respectfully asking that after you read and consider what I've written that you reconsider your vote. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me. Thanks! Alex Schenck (that's Linuxbeak to you) 19:08, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi again,

As much as I wish I could agree with you, Brandt has already taken shots at me, and that was long before I said anything that could even be considered negative. Have you seen this? He posted my name, address, information about college... it's things like that turned me off so very quickly about him. His ideals may be in the right, but his methods, such as tracking down personal information about those who speak against him, are not moral. He was banned from Misplaced Pages for being a disruptive troll. We did in fact try listening to him; in fact, I tried talking to him personally. It did me no good. He ignored me completely, even as I extended him the olive branch.

I find Mr. Brandt fascinating, Zordrac. I don't agree with his tactics, though, because I find them very unbecoming of a privacy activist. Do you see the angle I'm coming in from?

So, basically, I'm asking you this. Would you reconsider your vote to at least neutral? I don't know if you read my candidate statement (I don't think you did, but I could be wrong), but my heart is in the right place, and I have the credentials to prove it.

Anyway, don't be alarmed by the name thing. That's on my signature and isn't anything special. Thanks for your time. Alex Schenck (that's Linuxbeak to you) 21:54, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

BD

noticed your comment on Gator's page about how arbcom seemed to ignore evidence in the BD case. if you read through the arbcom proceedings, you'll see that BD stated that he was making it a personal mission to attack the funding sources of wikipedia, and that this had been his plan almost from the start. regards, Derex 20:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Ianbrown

You said:

Neutral - can't see a reason to oppose with the huge edit count, lots of valid contributions, and likes cricket. But just not enough activities with regards to such things as AFDs, policy discussion, anti-vandalism or any admin-ish chores. A great contributor, and an asset to Misplaced Pages. No need to make him an admin.

You are of course entitled to vote however you wish for whatever reason you choose. However, I would like to say that I have seen Ian participating in AFDs many times; that a look at his User page pre 9 November will indicate just how much he has been thinking about vandalism and policy; and that participation in policy discussions is utterly irrelevant to adminship status. Rock on, Snottygobble | Talk 02:51, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Peter Falconio

I saw a redirect had been made from the peter Falconio page and assumed someonehad vandalised the page to redirect it to another, that was not the original one, and tried to revert it to what it was originally. I fail to see why there was a need to create a new page just simply to add 'dissapearance' to the title. What would happen if someone now wanted to add 'murder' to the title? would that be yet another redirected page? yes I'm new. and have not done the other edits. I'm working from the local library open link station. 86.2.137.12 10:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

• • Thanks, I made the error with the categories by getting mixed up as I moved between the redirected page and the original I will correct my error. 86.2.137.12 10:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Help

Care to help with S11? --Striver 00:10, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you! Care to join Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Conspiracies Guild? --Striver 00:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, thank you very much for contributing those pieces of information! Have good day/night :) --Striver 01:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The world is going strairt to NWO... or Hell, depending on which word you prerer... Thanx for all the time you spent on it. I would sugest you to start something like a Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject anti-Globalization related topics Guild, abrevated to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject AGRT Guild or something... you seem to know a bit about it, and coordinating efforts is a great tool! I mean, if it wasnt, why whould they ban it? Good luck! --Striver 18:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Brandt again

Hi Zordrac,

I invite you to look at this posting on WP:AN. You will find it to be very interesting. Alex Schenck (that's Linuxbeak to you) 01:04, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you

For your surprising vote of support on my recent bid for adminship. — FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 07:19, Dec. 17, 2005

Daniel Brandt

I really don't care what he puts on his website, it's not as if anyone will actually read it - I think that if he wants to list people's real names and that's not an invasion of privacy, then that's his business. I have nothing against him or what he does. What I do object to is him expecting that he can waltz into Misplaced Pages and lay down the law and when people object, resort to blatant trolling. He can edit his own article within policy - as far as I am concerned, he is just another banned user who has set up a hostile website. So what? He is not the first and is not likely to be the last. What I am going to do is ignore him - I find it rather flattering that he's listed me (John Doe #16). I am planning on being reasonable and will always be extending the same invitation to him. Whether he takes it or not, is a matter for him. Izehar (talk) 13:43, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

When he was trying to get the article deleted. The fact that policy and consensus was to keep it didn't enter his mind - you may also want to check why he has listed FayssalF on his black list. Fayssal committed a heinous crime - he reverted Brandt. Izehar (talk) 13:51, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I saw you note on my talk page about Public Information Research. The site used to be at pir.org, but I imagine Daniel Brandt sold it to the current owners because it is a very valuable domain name. Now it appears the main presence online is at namebase.org. I don't have a whole lot of info beyond what I found from a cursory search. I usually jusy click on red links and start articles when I can. Jokestress 17:23, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I also saw you are spearheading the drive to delete U.S. v. Brandt. I believe things get filled in when they are current events much more thoroughly, so I am always saddened to see deletionism of this sort. To take your apples and oranges analogy, I don't think any SCOTUS decisions should be deleted, nor should the episode guides to popular television shows, to take another "frivolous" example. I believe one area where Misplaced Pages can outshine other resources is this very type of article. I envision Misplaced Pages being as deep as one wants to go into a subject. The Brandt case was a notable example of the government using conscription to crack down on protestors and delinquents, fast-tracking them to get shipped off to Viet Nam. Brandt was one of the few people who not only stood up but did jail time on this. The case had a chilling effect on the overzealous draft boards and was a big black eye for the military. Like you, I find this topic interesting, but I find the argument about SCOTUS specious. I suppose I should be tilting at windmills regarding those deleting SCOTUS decisions, but I have faith that in the long run, all those cases will be rescued from the deletionists active during Misplaced Pages's early history. Jokestress 21:55, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Well Done

I noticed this on your user page. Are you happy now? ;) --D-Day 19:17, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

My RfA

Cheers!

Yes, stalked

Daniel Brandt obviously did a little research on me, as I have not provided any of the personal information found on his so-called lawsuit page on Misplaced Pages. I'd call that stalking. Obli 12:14, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

• No, the very opposite. It's my name, I'm the only person with it and that's what's bothering me. That information is more than enough to find me in real life, I'm by no means a public figure or celebrity and should have the possibility to exercise certain control over where information that personally identifies me gets posted. Besides, if he's collecting evidence for a lawsuit, why does the world have to see everything he's got?

Obli 12:23, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I suppose, but if he wants something out of this other than attention I think pressuring me is completely useless, I have no say in the Misplaced Pages community, I'm just an editor, an awfully inactive one on top of that. Also, I noticed Linuxbeak is no longer on Brandt's list, what happened to him? Obli 12:34, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Wow, that shed some light onto all this... But yeah, I agree, I guess I got a little too edgy to join the flow to "protect" wikipedia, as both WP and Google are in high standing with me I just dove into the drama bomb without knowing anything about it, but I've got to admit that after this whole affair he's notable enough to me to stay in WP.

As for the something awful issue, I'm a member of their forums myself and I agree strongly on what you're saying, they're pushing the limits of privacy a little bit too much sometimes, in fact, I think they're struggling to keep the invasions of privacy down right now, there have been quite some discussions about "internet detective work" and how it should be bannable.

Having that said, I'll just have to admit that I agree with RoyBoy on the hive-mind page: "privacy ain't what it used to be"

Obli 13:14, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I've read your page on Daniel Brandt and I fully agree, this is not CIA's personal dossier on him, it's supposed to be a brief encyclopedic synopsis of what he's notable for. I haven't had time to look into the LJ drama thing, but I can assure you that I'm familiar with the something awful counterparts... But then again, I don't think I ever touched the Daniel Brandt page, all I did is was writing those words that now appear on his hivemind page, to be honest I think he only put me there because my personal info was really easy to find (the link to my blog on my user page, for example. A whois would give everything he needed). It's sad that he doesn't know who to pressure, it's ceratinly not a 18-year-old Swedish teenager who masterminds this so-called conspiracy of his. Obli 14:05, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, better get a new identity for my undercover CIA work then, that Swedish teenager was getting kind of old anyway ;) Nice talking to you about this, turns out it was far more than an elaborate drama bomb... Obli 20:44, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey, at least he removed everyone's names from the list, that's nice, I suppose... Obli 20:56, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

My RFA

Hello, I'd like to thank you for having taken the time to vote and comment on my RFA. Izehar (talk) 15:23, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate you reconsidering - with regards to Brandt, I don't know for sure, as I wasn't there, but everyone was being polite and reasonable with him at first, especially Linuxbeak and SlimVirgin. He expected us to rearrange the entire system so that he could get his way. After days of trolling, tantrums and legal threats, he set up that website and got blocked. I would nominate that page of his for deletion and everyone could relax, except I know it would fail, as overwhelming consensus is to keep it. Don't get me wrong, I find all his legally ominous comments worrying - when I saw he had added me to his list, I nearly kicked myself. Of course, that website of his probably is an attention-seeking bluff, but IMO that was completely unnecessary. If I could get the stomach for it, I would propose that the Wikipmedia Foundation seek full legal advice on how far we can go with biographies, but I daren't, I'd get laughed down at once.

IMO you should stand by everything you said, there's nothing wrong with that. I an fact fully agree with you at User:Zordrac/Daniel Brandt. I think that Misplaced Pages:Libel and WP:NLT should be rewritten and supervised by a legal expert. Anyway, I don't think we should worry about it. Brandt has been behaving ridiculously, like a child and his pudding. If none of the other Wikipedians worry about it, neither shall I.

I'm beginning to think that Brandt deliberately caused and prolongs this dispute - it fuels that website of his and he has dismissed your patient attempt to solve everything allows us to draw inferences. I bet sooner or later, he'll start another "watch" website. Perhaps Oatmeal Watch or something like that.

Anyway, thank you again for reconsidering my RFA. Izehar (talk) 20:57, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Bye and some comments

I am sad when anyone leaves, so goodbye (even though I never really had much contact with you). I just stumbled across User:Zordrac/Daniel Brandt and I have late some (late) comments for you. You wrote:

Then someone recreated it (in spite of recreating deleted articles being a criteria for speedy deletion WP:CSD), and it passed an AFD and was kept.

That isn't true. Only articles recreated after a AFD are CSD candidates.

He was then banned for creating hivemind, supposedly because his listing of users' real names was in violation of policy.

that isn't true. He was blocked for legal threats (the hivemind page didn't help though). I was one of the blocking admins.

And then today he was unbanned by User:Linuxbeak. I found it a bit astounding, as, if I read it correctly, he seemed to be doing it because I was the only person to vote "Oppose" on his Request for Beaurocrat (something that he'd get regardless of my vote). Seems a bit odd. But then it didn't really work.

I unblocked him, Not Linuxbeak.

Also, I don't think Brandt seriously thinks Google is out to get him (and is in collusion with Misplaced Pages). In general I disagree with you, but you do make some good points. Basically I think everyone should just be nicer. If people hadn't insulted Brandt (and Brandt hadn't threatened to sue/blackmail) then things would be fine today. Oh, well. Broken S 22:45, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

oh, alright Broken S 15:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages philosophies

Just a note to say I like your short summary of the Misplaced Pages philosophies. One of these days, I am going to spell mine out, but for now I come out pretty close to where you do. -- DS1953 05:56, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• I knew about the links -- it's your personailzed take on each of them that I liked! -- DS1953 06:03, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Tawnee Stone et al.

We have agree over the course of multiple discussion at AN/I not to include the unverified names for these porn models which are proposed by an individual who had it in his interest to stalk these women. He subsequently cofounded wikiporn after his edits were rejected here. Dragons flight 06:19, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Fortune Lounge Group Article

I would like to understand better why the Fortune Lounge Group article keeps on being deleted, as I have tried as much as possible to re-edit the article so that it is less promotional. It would be nice for the Group to feature in the Wiki and I do not mind re-editing the material once again, but I do not understand the grounds for deletion.

I did make an attempt to completely re-edit the article and posted another version on 15 Dec 2005, but this got a speedy deletion.

I see you have a number of online casinos and poker rooms listed in the Misplaced Pages and these articles have external links so if this is not ideally the factor for deletion - please could you give me some tips as to how we can feature in the wiki without breaking the editorial rules per se.

I'd really like some feedback and will await a timeous response.Email me at matthewa@fortunelounge.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by fortunelounge (talk • contribs)

YOU TOTALLY RULE!

Kudos to you on your brilliance! I just read what you had to say on AfD reform and your are absolutely 100% right. Everything about the current process is biased. The AfD voting policy is an outright sham. Please see the GH avisualagency AfD to see Misplaced Pages's so-called "democracy" at work. What is even more hypocritical is the issue of "vanity". It obviously doesn't apply to the higher-ups and the admins:

• "WIKIPEDIA FOUNDER EDITS OWN BIO"
• "WIKIPEDIA FOUNDER LOOKS OUT FOR NUMBER 1"

Wikimeister 18:48, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your interest in my RfA

Thank you for taking the time to vote on my RfA. While it was not a favorable vote, I do appreciate your honesty -- and I also appreciate your perspectives on AfD. Obviously, I may disagree with you on certain things, such as the Tori Stone issue -- but this does not mean that those who disagree should be hateful of one another, which is a growing problem on Misplaced Pages. I applaud (and will back up) your willingness to assume good faith on all people, and if you are in need of any assistance, I will try to be there for you as not only a fellow human being, but as an administrator. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 04:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

malo's RfA

For the record...

... if you had something to do with Brandt taking down personal info from his shitlist, thanks. Please don't feel stupid for sticking your neck out to defend a person, even when they don't appreciate it. The principle of the thing is to be fair, and to stick to your guns, even when others disagree with you. That's my take on things, anyway. I think you did a good job. - Ta bu shi da yu 16:19, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

So let me get this straight: Brandt suspect that I'm a member of the CIA, because I don't give my real name? C'mon, you can't be serious! That would mean that he believes that 95% of the site are agents! As for bargaining chips, well, if that's Daniel's ethics, then IMHO he probably shouldn't be in the activist game...

Can you tell me who the "outing" user was? Sorry that this happened. Sounds like they need to be reminded about Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith.

As I say, though, Brandt may have stabbed you in the back, but you have shown that you have principals. That's good enough for a whole heap of people, myself included. Unfortunately, principals often come at a cost, as you have so painfully discovered :( Ta bu shi da yu 17:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, if Brandt believes these things he really is a twit. Perhaps he should read our article tinfoil hat. - Ta bu shi da yu 17:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Grateful for your advice please

Please e-mail me - Poetlister 20:36, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

You mean you've never used the "E-mail this user" option in Misplaced Pages? I have a Misplaced Pages problem that I believe you may be able to help me with. - Poetlister 20:42, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

User:Zordrac/Fortuneloungegroup

It seems more neutral than the advertisement posted previously, so I would move it back to Fortune Lounge Group. That said, the page is still not completely NPOV—there is no need for an "Awards" section, and the controversy section shouldn't be at the end of the article, but probably much higher. Titoxd 20:54, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, those awards seem too much like an advertisement, so they could probably be pared down to the most important ones... but then, that's just my opinion. That probably should be settled on the article's talk page along the input of other users. Titoxd 21:00, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Just leave them on the External links section with a note that they're not clickable due to spam blocking. Titoxd 21:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. I truly don't know. It might be better to ask at the Technical Village Pump about this, since it is frequented by the MediaWiki developers. Titoxd 21:14, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Having looked over the new NPOV article, it seems that we may all have been talking about a different deletion, as the 2nd version contained no "Awards" section. However, I'd like to thank Zordrac for helping to recreate a fairly good article, but unfortunately some information is highly inaccurate and I will take it upon myself to edit the necessary false information. I'd like to send the version I did write up to Zordrac and urge you to please email me so that I may send the material I'd like to add to your version. here's my email address so you can make conatct: lildice@brillmarketing.com. thanks so much for all your help. fortunelounge

Message

Hi, message for you at User talk:Mindspillage. Cheers, SlimVirgin 22:37, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your message, Zordrac. Do you have any reason to believe Poetlister has not been using other accounts? She was blocked by a member of the arbcom who has check-user access, and she is definitely not involved in mediation with anyone, as she has told you. SlimVirgin 22:54, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I just noticed you say on Mindspillage's page that you've seen evidence of wrongdoing on Lulu's part that might require an RfC or RfAr. Would you mind saying what this evidence is? I don't want to interfere, but I noticed you say earlier that you've had no contact with Poetlister until today, so you may not be aware of the background. I would urge caution for that reason, as the situation has been a little strange. To the best of my knowledge, Lulu has had no contact with her for weeks, and his disagreement with RachelBrown is over. It was about whether she had to supply sources for her edits, and then it was whether a particular source she offered was a credible source, and it was, which Lulu accepted. There were no other issues between them that I'm aware of. SlimVirgin 23:01, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

User talk:Mindspillage

I happened across the fact you made several rather scurrilous comments about me in a thread about a block on another editor. For example: I see evidence of wrongdoing on the part of Lulu of the Lotus Eaters requiring a RfC and possibly ArbCom.. AFAIK, I've never even intersected in editing a page in common with you, so I really don't understand why you would go around diss'ing me in such a manner (especially given it's flat-out falseness). Maybe a little more WP:FAITH than just putting down editors you've never interacted with would be a good thing. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 01:06, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I would have replied on your talk page, but it was infiltrated by a wikistalker. Suffice to say that the issue was that you failed to assume good faith with regards to new editors citing references, which you deleted and discredited, even after they were verified, and still continue to claim WP:V over such issues as whether or not a supreme court justice of the Israel Supreme court is jewish, and whether the Jewish Year Book is a valid reference for finding out if someone is Jewish. It goes a bit beyond just you lacking good faith however. It is my opinion that your actions were wantonly irresponsible and I would support someone going to ArbCom over this issue, especially now that User:Poetlister was arbitrarily banned so as to prevent any dispute over your conduct. And yes, I am neutral in the context, since I never met you. That makes my comments MORE valid, not less. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 08:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Also note that I have had no prior contact with Poetlister or anyone else involved. I am a purely neutral party giving my opinion of the situation based on evidence. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 08:20, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

RFA Suggestion

Zordrac, I notice you opposed W.marsh's adminship with the comment "a few bad run ins with this fellow." I don't have a problem with this, but several users, including W.marsh himself, have wondered what the few bad run ins were. It is prefered in RFA to provide evidence of such encounters – this backs up your claim while allowing other users to include them in their judgement of the nominee.

On an unrelated note, I know you probably don't ever want to hear the name of Daniel Brandt ever again, but I just want to say I'm sorry that he upset/insulted you so much. I haven't seen any of his comments to you, but they must have been pretty bad, and I never like to see that happen to anyone. Raven4x4x 01:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Poetlister block

Hi, I have been in contact with these people by email, it may be that there are friends or acquaintances of each other but to block them because they have supported each other in disputes (in a totally open way) seems incredibly unfair!? Arniep 02:13, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, you might want to see or/and comment on Misplaced Pages:Administrator's noticeboard#RachelBrown socks. --Mistress Selina Kyle 05:15, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Arbitration? O-o

I just saw the message you left over on my talk page

I have no idea who Lulu is or why I would want to arbitrate agaisnt her, sorry. :/ But it does seem that User:Mindspillage, the one who made all these blocks is using unjustified guesswork here - It seems quite obvious that they have been using each others computers at various times and hence the similar ip's --Mistress Selina Kyle 05:18, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Fortune Lounge

See what I mean? User:Fortunelounge is going to try to remove anything he doesn't like and replace it with corporate PRspeak. Trust me, I'm a racing team PR person. He's gonna try and make everything in the article PRized approved fluff. FCYTravis 09:35, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Actually the only reason why I tried to delete the information under the spam section of the article as it is inaccurate and providing time-sensitive false information is neither in the best interests of the wiki or our page.

When Zordrac created this new article, some of his links were incorrect and that has led us to believe that his keywords research for our site came up with a www.fortuneloungegroup.com web address that does not in fact exist.

www.online-casinos.com is under the maintenance of Jan Balslev, and the site is part of the InterCasino/Casino Tropaz online operators. I do not know where they got their information from or what game they're trying to play at, but their article is unsubstantiated and alleged rumor by the look of things.

We're not looking to cause a stir, but do not want this wiki page to be the start of a smear campaign either as it does add significant encyclopedic and research value to this entry . Apologies for givng you the impression that we were trying to cover up some negative press, but we are actually about transparency and like to be held accountable for our decisions.

Thanks goes to Zordrac for helping us to have an entry and we do not expect any ownership over his created page. User:Fortunelounge

This is my user page. I have possession of this user page. Therefore, you can refer to me in first person (i.e. "you" rather than "zordrac"). Thanks :).

Yes, feel free to correct things, and I apologise for any errors. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 12:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I'd prefer for you to correct your mistake on that article as this will cause less issues on my side with FCYTravis, who seems to be a little like he's out for our blood - by the look of some of the comments... anyway just glad to resolve some journalistic inaccuracies. thanks again for your help in this matter. User:Fortunelounge

Fortune Lounge Group

Thanks for letting me know. enochlau (talk) 10:35, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey

Hey, you asked why no one was nice. I guess it's easier to be nasty, so people take the easy road. I read through your user page. Quite interesting. You have a lot of interests but maybe you could get out more. You take AfD way too seriously. Analysing your votes is a step too far, man. Still, if it makes you happy, it makes you happy. I also read your comment to Mistress Selina Kyle. Don't stress too much about admin corruption. Get on the wrong side of someone who's "connected" and the best thing to do is walk away. There's 1000s of other articles to work on. Unless you want to get bruised, give up the one you've run into a bully over, and find something else to work on. Unless you like mischief, that is. The more pompous administrapo are very teasable but lacking in a sense of humour. They get all huffy and ban those who tweak their noses. So take care and happy editing. I don't know whether this qualified as nice. Still, it's friendly in intention. Cheers now. Grace Note

I signed the comment. A quick check of the contribs of that IP would show that it's me. I don't always bother signing in because my belief is that it's the edit that matters, not the person who made it. -- Grace Note.

Thanks Zodrac, for your notes and assistance

Zordrac, thanks for this very helpful information and background on Misplaced Pages. I will add some of my comments on the page deletion process to the articles you have suggested.

I am very interested in Wikis as a new paradigm for publishing and information sharing in a distributed fashion. I think the concept of an encyclopaedia that can be edited by multiple (millions even) of people is a very powerful resource. I am active in forest campaigning. I was searching via Google for information about Senator John Devereux - he resigned from the ALP over their Tasmanian forest policies in Tasmania. If found a Misplaced Pages entry via Google for him - he was listed as an Australian Senator with not details or article about him. So I created an article for him and added some information to it. Then I got curious and checked out some Greens articles - and noticed that there was information on elected Greens and elections, but no mention of a candidates. So I added references to candidates and created a page listing all candidates for the 2004 Federal Election (and a subcategory for Greens Candidates)

Then I added a page for myself linked to the list of candidates as I had information about my campaign and believe the results to be significant. The Liberals certainly do too - I think the growing Greens vote has partly motivated them to attack the Greens to marginalise them and portray them as "fringe extremists". This is fairly basic negative PR tactics designed to stop the trend of "thinking liberal" voters moving to the Greens due to better policies on refugees and the environment etc. I also think Petro Georgiou's recent outspoken stand on asylum seeker policies (welcome though it is) is partly motivated by him losing votes to the Greens. The whole thing looked like a set play - Petro threatens his private members bill. "Progressive Liberal MPs" (Bruce Baird and Judy Moylan etc) rally around him. John Howard states that he can hear public concern on the issue. End result - NO change to policy, but increased ministerial discretions to Vanstone (who won't use them). Some token releases of children & long term detainees, but now they are locking more up. A win for Petro, a win for Howard, and refugees and the Australian public dudded yet again!

What the Liberals don't want to do is assimilate Greens policies - they are hell bent on burning coal, running a budget surplus at any cost, robbing the poor to pay the rich, and shifting Australia to a "dog eat dog" competitive nation like America. I don't think they are conservatives any more - they are actually tending towards extremists and even fascism now - as Malcolm Fraser has recently pointed out. My activities in politics are now motivated by reversing this trend - in addition to campaigning broadly for sustainability and environmental protection. My blog has some of my recent articles, letters and writings on it.

I didn't think the page would harm my bid for preselection, but I didn't think it would boost it much either, as it fairly obscure to most of the general public and Greens members. Some late breaking news - I missed out on preselection - but I still think the page is valid and should remain. I understand though that it is likely to be deleted. Having checked out the process for this, I find it to be vague, subjective and not well documented - certainly for 'newbies' such as myself. There really should be mention of this page creation policy (on vanity articles) in the page creation guidelines.

Having added several Wiki links to my page I checked the content of them and have edited quite a few. There is certainly a lot of improvements and corrections required. It is simply fantastic to be able to make them. And then it is curious to see them reversed or kept, and view the process behind this (such as the discussion page contents etc.) I have had some positive feedback for these contributions, which has partly offset the not too pleasant experience of having "my page" listed for deletion.

I intend to keep on editing, but will take a break over Christmas and the New Year.

I had previously looked up your user page and was impressed by your efforts and activities. Keep up the good work.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Campbell (talk • contribs)

Reversions of well intentioned edits without a comment

If you are going to revert well intentioned edits you should at least have the courtesy to provide an edit summary. I believe it is very useful to note which clubs are in Melbourne. Indeed without the infomration the location column of the AFL clubs list is almost useless to non-Australians. Calsicol 15:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

• Okay, it looks like it may have been an accident. All sorted now. Calsicol 15:28, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
  • No, you are right, it was my fault. I should have put in an edit summary. I can see how you could think that it was a reversion. I changed it from suburb, victoria (suburb of melbourne) to suburb, melbourne, victoria and got rid of the comment. You likely thought that I was getting rid of the suburb bit, but I wasn't really, I was just making it a bit more explicit (too many brackets can make things more unreadable). It was the only one of my edits without a summary. I got a bit confused though because the only reversion I made was reverting myself. But your changes were great and very productive, so thanks for that. I was a bit confused with what I was doing. Should I include the mergers? Should I write their physical location? But you backed me up big time which was great. Thanks! I am sorry that you thought I was having a go at you there. Anyway, as I said, feel free to revert all my edits. I was really BEING BOLD in butting in really lol. I hope that I didn't upset anyone. I wrote in talk why I did it, so if it crops up later, then feel free to revert everything. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 15:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: List of Jewish Jurists

If CheckUser shows that they are the same person, there's nothing I can do. I'll get back to you on this. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 16:01, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Mindspillage is a member of the ArbCom with CheckUser access. I don't see what you're disputing - Mindspillage says she did a CheckUser with conclusive results, and I don't see why we should doubt her. What are you disputing? Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 17:11, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think she does have CheckUser access. That's rather restricted. She said that evidence had been presented to the arbcom, but it's not been made explicit at Poetlister's page from what I can see. -- Grace Note.