Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:39, 28 December 2005

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Andy Warhall (Worholl)

Is the "Andy Warhall (Worholl)" referred to Andy Warhol? If so, he was born in Pittsburgh (making him ineligible for this list), and his parents considered themselves to be from Slovakia, not Ukraine, even though they were Rusyns. Beginning 04:45, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)

Very incomplete

This list is highly incomplete. It should be given priority over others.

List of famous Ukrainians?

Shouldn't the name of this article be List of famous Ukrainians. simply calling it List of Ukrainians is a little missleading: you can't possibly list all forty something millions of Ukrainians in this article. Does anyone mind if I change it to "List of famous Ukrainian" or maybe "List of noted Ukrainians"? --Berkut 06:34, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Ukrainian? In the List?

• Nina Koshetz
• Marina Koshetz

How about adding Dmytro Doroshenko, politician, and major emigre historian. There is an article on him in the Misplaced Pages.

--User:Sheynhertz-Unbayg/sig 02:22, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Lewis Milestone?

I've accidentally taken a look at his page and found no mention of him being a Ukrainian. If the author of the link meant that he (Lewis) was born on the territory of Moldovian ASSR (within Ukrainian SSR) - please note it somewhere. AlexPU 19:34, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

General criteria for the list

I removed Lewis Milestone from the list. I think we should stick to those born within the current borders of independent Ukraine. If there are other opinions, let's discuss them here. --Pecher 10:41, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

First of all, I disagree with the idea of sticking to the current borders of independent Ukraine. This is an ultranew country populated by a superold nation (nations). So such a limitation would not add to Wiki informativity. However, we do need to resort and split the list. Or may be we should turn it to a category of lists? Particularly, I suggest a temporary and work-oriented ethnic and historical segregation. You see, the persons in the list are predominantly Jews, originating form Ukraine. So we should somehow recruit Jewish Wiki fellows to develop these articles (and to actually prove wether these people fit the criteria). Next, some Soviet Ukrainians list would be useful. Let's discuss further. AlexPU 17:42, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Apart from the current borders of independent Ukraine, I see no other viable geographical criteria. We may, of course, create two separate lists: "famous ethnic Ukrainians" and "famous people born in Ukraine" with Ukraine understood as the independent Ukrainian state within its current borders. The latter list may or may not include ethnic Ukrainians and will include the existing List of Ukrainian Jews as its part. However, we will first need to sort out how we define an "ethnic Ukrainian" because determining ethnicity may be tricky for many famous people.

On a related note: someone removed Bruno Schulz from the list. I will restore him and will persist in doing so until proven wrong. I see no reason why Bruno Schulz, who was born and lived nearly all his life in Drohobych, doesn't fit into the existing list.Pecher 16:41, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Born in Ukraine or ethnic Ukrainians?

The brief summary says it is the list of people "from Ukraine", i.e. those born in Ukraine. However, now the list includes many ethnic Ukrainians who were not born in Ukraine. What shall we do: restrict the list to only those born in Ukraine or include ethnic Ukrainians as well? I believe we should include both categories of people, but state our criteria clearly in the summary. The matter is very important, so let's share opinions. --Pecher 10:38, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I think we should ONLY include ethnic Ukrainians in thist list - for it is the only way this list will ever work and not end up repeating names. I also think we should move all non-ethnic Ukrainians from this list to their corresponding lists: like list of Belarusians, list of Russians, list of East European Jews, List of Poles etc..

Most nationality list include people of that nationality who were born outside of the corresponding country - therefore it makes the most sense to just include ethnic Ukrainians on a list such as this. HotelRoom 00:33, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Currently, this is the list of people born in Ukraine. This is normal practice in Misplaced Pages; see, for example, the List of Poles. The List of Russians even goes so far as to include people associated with Russian empire or the Soviet Union. If you believe that there should be a list of ethnic Ukrainians, feel free to start a new list. Please respect the work of other people and do not delete it in an arbitrary fashion.--Pecher 09:24, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I implore you to be logical here. Starting a WHOLE new list of list of Ukrainians is just a joke as no one will use this original list for anything - if someone comes to wikipedia to look where someone was born regardless of their ethnicity, they'll look at their specific article and not a list. There are many lists that include just ethnic peoples associated with the nationality list of Poles doesn't include people who aren't Poles - where do you get that? list of Germans includes all Germans List of Italians includes all Italians list of English people include all English people -- why should list of Ukrainians be different? Only because list of Russians started that bad trend?! HotelRoom 19:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

The List of Poles does not include only Poles. Just a couple of obvious examples: Klaus von Klitzing, Maria Goeppert-Mayer - Germans, Benoit Mandelbrot, Józef Rotblat, Arthur Rubinstein, Shimon Peres, Isaac Bashevis Singer - Jewish, Nikifor Krynicki - Ukrainian (Rusyn). There are much more examples to find if you look at the list carefully.

The same is true for the other lists you mention. The List of Germans includes, among others, Albert Einstein; is he an ethnic German? The List of Italians features economist Franco Modigliani and painter Amedeo Modigliani, both Jewish. So, why should the List of Ukrainians be different?--Pecher 09:46, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I invite everyone to join the struggle for the preservation of the list and against the ethnic cleansing perpetrated by HotelRoom. If you want the List of Ukrainians not to be debased, please voice your opinions here, on the discussion page, so that your voice is heard. On my part, I solemnly promise again that I will keep reverting any deletions of non-ethnic Ukrainians (Jews, Poles, Germans, Russians etc.) from the list.--Pecher 10:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I would agree with Pecher. The list should include all people somehow related to Ukraine: all who was born there, or lived and worked there, and ethnic in diasora Ukrainians as well. If somebody is particlularly interested in the ethnicity of the person, s/he may follow the link and read the appropriate article.--AndriyK 10:55, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Andriy, and some editor judgement should probably be used. Germany and Italy are not good examples, compared to Ukraine which has a history in the Soviet Union, Russian Empire, Austro-Hungary, etc, although even those countries have non-ethnic countrymen listed. As a counter-example, see List of Canadians and List of Americans. —Michael Z. 2005-11-25 17:11 Z

Since you all agree with eachother and there's no way for me to stop that, the only fair thing for you all do is rename this article to something like List of people associated with Ukraine, List of people born in Ukraine, or whatever else you want - and replace this list with List of Ukrainians/temp. HotelRoom 20:02, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Why give it a more complicated title? A Ukrainian can be a citizen of Ukraine or an ethnic Ukrainian, such as a Ukrainian Canadian. List of Ukrainians follows the pattern of other Misplaced Pages article titles, including for multicultural countries, like Canada, the USA, and Ukraine. —Michael Z. 2005-11-25 20:10 Z

How in the hell is Ukraine multicultural? ESPECIALLY in comparison to the USA and Canada. It's 77% Ukrainian, and 16% Russian. As you are not representing ethnic Ukrainians (the type listed on Ukrainians page) I suggest you replace this article with List of Ukrainians/temp - renaming this one - as there is no point to make this list vastly different from the others. 72.144.68.52 21:05, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

There are many famous Ukrainian Russians and Jews, born and raised in Ukraine. Please try to express your disbelief a little more moderately. And I don't understand what you mean when you say that I am not representing ethnic Ukrainians. —Michael Z. 2005-11-25 22:52 Z

The page that you created - List of Ukrainians/temp - is redundant and I have marked it for deletion.--Pecher 21:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

First of all the user who posted above isn't me. Secondly, you explicitly stated that if I wish I could make another list which only contained ethnic Ukrainians - now that I have, you put it up for deletion. You leave me no option but to continuously revert the main Ukrainians page. HotelRoom 22:05, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

You suggest quite the opposite, namely that we should rename the present article, and we are not going to do that. If you revert your changes to the article against the wishes of other editors, you will be starting an edit war, which is against the spirit of Misplaced Pages.--Pecher 22:16, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

If you wish to create a list of ethnic Ukrainians, please create a page with such a name and proceed. Needless to say that I have reverted your reversions.--Pecher 22:24, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Let my try again: Why give it a more complicated title? Citizens of Ukraine, ethnic Ukrainian emigrants, Canadian-born Ukrainians—these can all be called Ukrainians. List of Ukrainians follows the pattern of other Misplaced Pages article titles, including everything from nation-states (like Germany, whose list includes Einstein of Jewish background) and multicultural countries like Canada and the USA. Is there a precedent for breaking this up into several lists? —Michael Z. 2005-11-25 22:52 Z

Looking at Category:Lists of people by nationality, it appears there are precedents. The larger main list should remain at List of Ukrainians, and qualified lists should have more specific titles. —Michael Z. 2005-11-25 22:58 Z

I will compromise if you at least prune SOME names that have no association with Ukraine. Also, if you add enough true ethnic Ukrainians to counterbalance the none then ok - but Bruno Schulz needs to go as he has no association with Ukraine whatsoever - only border changes. HotelRoom 01:34, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

How's this: if we can make it so that Ethnic Ukrainians greatly outnumber nonethnic Ukrainians on this list then fine - I'll be cool - but as of now this list is farfetched. I will help to improve the list - IE: adding people, making articles - but will continue to revert if we do not fix up this list quick. HotelRoom 01:55, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

We won't make "it so that Ethnic Ukrainians greatly outnumber nonethnic Ukrainians" solely to please you. The only criterion for the inclusion in this list is the importance/fame of the persons in question, not their ethnic origin. I will revert any ethnicity-biased changes that you make to this list, and I am asking everybody else to do the same.--Pecher 16:26, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the particular case of Schulz, and I don't think that we can agree to the principle of a majority of ethnic Ukrainians; if e.g., there were more encyclopedic Jews and Russians from Ukraine, so be it (but I would guess that ethnic Ukrainians are likely to be the largest group here). To be clear: I won't support the position that there's something wrong with a list because there aren't enough of a particular group on it.

On the other hand, it seems to make sense to create additional lists, such as List of Ukrainian Canadians or List of Ukrainian Jews which could capture the marginal cases.

But why is Shulz not appropriate? From a quick scan of the article it appears that he lived and worked in Galicia all his life. —Michael Z. 2005-11-26 16:57 Z

First of all I don't see why on earth a list of Ukrainians should not have ethnic UKRAINIANS be the majority on there - that is the point of making these lists. We don't make List of Chinese people to put English architects. There certainly is something wrong with this list if there isn't enough of a particular group on it - WHEN THAT GROUP IS IN THE TITLE. There is no need to create additional lists as they already exist (except Ukrainian Canadians as far as I know). That's why all the nonethnic Ukrainians should be transferred to their

According to my Canadian Oxford Dictionary:

Ukrainian • noun 1 a native of Ukraine. 2 the Slavic language of Ukraine. • adjective of or relating to Ukraine or its people or language.

It says nothing about ethnic Ukrainians being the only Ukrainians, or the best Ukrainians, or it being bad if they're in the minority. If Ukraine had a 99% or 10% ethnic Ukrainian population, that wouldn't change who belongs on this page at all. This page titled List of Ukrainians is simply and precisely a list of Ukrainians, just as List of Germans contains a list of Germans. I don't see any reason for the majority on this page to be or for it not to be ethnic Ukrainians; there are however many there are. It's not a popularity contest; it's a list of links to biographic articles. If ethnic Ukrainians do indeed end up as the the minority here, then I respectfully suggest that you just learn to live with it. —Michael Z. 2005-11-26 22:34 Z

PS: thanks for noticing the omission; I just added "I. M. Pei, Chinese-American architect" to the List of Chinese people. —Michael Z. 2005-11-26 22:45 Z

It's quite simple: I will continue to revert additions of people who have barely anything to do with Ukraine. I will try to add as many ethnic Ukrainians as possible (considering this list is seriously lacking in important people).

Secondly, if you feel that this list should INCLUDE Ukrainian Jews and Russians - please explain to me why it's ok for them to have their separate list -----> List of East European Jews, List of Russians but not ethnic Ukrainians? Is it bias or just foolishness? HotelRoom 07:00, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

It's fine to have a separate list of ethnic Ukrainians, although maintaining two lists will be an additional burden. And additions of any Ukrainians are welcome, of course. (I don't believe there is a list of ethnic Russians—please read the intro paragraph of list of Russians; it's a good example to follow) —Michael Z. 2005-11-27 08:11 Z

Ukrainians Born Outside Ukraine

Ever thought of this one? Nikita Khrushchev amongst others. We include those into List of famous from whatever country they were born and raised? or here? --Kuban kazak 12:41, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Nikita Khrushchev was not an ethnic Ukrainian (his wife was). But he may be included in this list becose he lived and worked in Ukraine for substential period of time.--AndriyK 15:22, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry to dissapoint you but on all nationality records Nikita Khrushchev appears as ethnically Ukrainian. Leonid Brezhnev on the other hand is the opposite, Russian born in Ukraine. -- Kuban kazak 17:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Kuban kazak, you are mistaken about Khrushchev. It is a rather common error which is often brought up in connection with the purported reasons behind his transfer of Crimea to Ukraine but he was ethnically Russian, born in Russia and he didn't speak Ukrainian. He wrote about this in his memoirs. This was discussed the Khrushchev's talk some time ago. Please take a look at Talk:Nikita_Khrushchev#Is_Khrushchev_of_Russian_or_Ukrainian_ethnicity.3F. --Irpen 19:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Maybe, actually he was from Slobodyanshchina-border territory between Russia and Ukraine (Kursk Gubernia) modern Kursk Oblast, not far from the current border. Kuban kazak 22:32, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that's where he was born. The language and culture didn't change drammaticallu at the current border and he might have spoken the same Surzhik as people of ] areas that became today's Kharkiv Oblast. However, he viewed himself Russian, didn't speak Ukrainian and wasn't an ethnical Ukrainian, so he doesn't qualify for the article by birth. Whether he qualifies by the fact that he worked many years in Ukraine, is a separate question and I am not sure of the answer. --Irpen 01:43, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Revert wars

Since the content of this page is becoming controversial, please observe wikipedia conventions, or I may revert your edit, whether I agree with your edit or not. In particular:

• Please enter a meaningful edit summary, as required by Misplaced Pages:Edit summary, or I may revert your edit.
• Please describe the content of your edit in the edit summary, do not argue or make statements about other editors, or I may revert your edit.
• Please do not claim "vandalism" or enter "rvv" ("revert vandalism") in your edit summary, unless you are responding to an edit that fits the criteria outlined in Misplaced Pages:Vandalism, or I may revert your edit.
• Please consider working things out on the talk page rather than reverting.

Thanks for listening. You may now return to your collaborative encyclopedia. —Michael Z. 2005-11-26 22:40 Z

Military

Here is an excellent site, apply a filter and move the data to the list http://www.warheroes.ru/main.asp --Kuban kazak 12:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Here's a link directly to the 253 Ukrainians. I've also created a slightly processed version of the list at Talk:List of Ukrainians/Military—someone may find this useful. —Michael Z. 2005-11-27 19:34 Z

Btw here is another sorting (took me ages to get the filter) of all people born in Ukraine but not-Ukrainians ]

-- Kuban kazak 17:48, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Who belongs to the article

1. First of all, there is no questions that all ethnic Ukrainians do belong here even if their relation to Ukraine in their lives is zero (like Stephen Timoshenko, and I hope a certain individual is not planning to change his article name to Ty.. and he can rest assured that OTOH, Yuliya Tymoshenko will never become Ti... in WP).

2. Also, people born if Ukraine, even if from a different ethnicity do belong here if:

1. they contributed to Ukrainian culture
2. they ae not clearly associated with another culture more than with the Ukrainian one, that is I won't include Sholom Aleichem, who, being born in Ukraine, is not an ethnic Ukrainian and who is rightfully claimed by the Jewish culture. Having him in the list of Ukrainians makes no sense despite him being born in Ukraine and even despite some of his contributions are associated with Ukraine. Of course Milla Jovovich (born in Kiev) belongs to this list even less.

3. People who aren't ethnic Ukrainians and also born outside of Ukrane but whose notability is associated with what they've done in Ukraine, especially after independence, (like Yekhanurov) should also belong to the lits.

--Irpen 17:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I highly second Irpen's approach! HotelRoom 02:34, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Such approach would not be consistent with other lists of famous people in Misplaced Pages. For instance, the List of Poles includes "famous Polish or Polish-speaking/writing persons, or persons born in Poland" - no reference to the sophisticated criteria proposed above. List of Poles features many people who were not ethnic Poles and have no relation to the Polish culture, e.g., Anastasia Lisovska, Max Factor, Klaus von Klitzing, Isaac Bashevis Singer etc. One can see a similar picture in the List of Belarusians: Irving Berlin, Noam Chomsky, Shimon Peres etc. Thus, I do not believe it is reasonable to exclude people from the list simply because they contributed to cultures, other than Ukrainian.--Pecher 19:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Irpen's criteria sound reasonable, but may be difficult to test. Should someone appear on this list if, e.g., they were born in Ukraine, but have no Ukrainian ethnicity, self-identity, or citizenship? I would say: if in doubt, then leave them in.

Remember that other more specific lists can partly overlap with this one, and capture any people who drop off of this list, e.g., Category:Ukrainian Canadians or List of Jews. —Michael Z. 2005-11-27 19:44 Z

Someone repeatedly deletes Bruno Schulz, Ludwig von Mises, and Abram Ioffe from the list. I am not sure why these specific individuals are targeted, but I will keep reverting these deletions, as promised.--Pecher 21:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

• Bruno Schulz --- no association with Ukraine but territorial change birth
• Ludwig von Mises --- no association with Ukraine but territorial change birth

Signing comments

I am asking all particpants in the discussion to sign their comments. This request is particularly relevant for HotelRoom, who left the comment above without signing it.--Pecher 15:36, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

There are four people who frequently add to this discussion, you're smart, figure it out. Also -----> history <---- tab HotelRoom 20:34, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

It's a matter of courtesy not to make people look into the history tab to find out who said what.--Pecher 22:05, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Approach

Can we agree to go by Irpen's approach. It seems the best as of yet. HotelRoom 03:02, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Rules for adding people

• 1) Must have contributed to Ukriane significantly (aside from just being born there)
• 2) Must not be claimed more by another nationality (like Jovovich)
• 3) Can be another nationality as long as they contributed significantly to Ukraine culture/science/etc

Good? HotelRoom 03:02, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the above points:

1) I am not sure what "contributed to Ukraine" means. How can one possbily contribute to a country?

2) There are lots of examples when some people are claimed by different nations simultaneously. I am already tired of repeating the examples from the List of Poles and other similar lists, so I will not cite them again.

3) I am not sure there is anything we can call "Ukraine science". I have always thought that science is universal.

Pecher 15:20, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Just an example. Taras Shevchenko was an ethnic Ukrainian and one of the greatest contibutors to the Ukrainian culture ever. OTOH, he also wrote some nice prose and poetry in Russian. He lived and painted in Russia too, and not just in exile but in the capital. Does he belong to the List of Russians? Doubtful.

Gogol, an ethnic Ukrainian. One of the greatest contributors to the Russian cultures. Does he belong to the List of Ukrainians? Of course he does! He belongs to both lists, but Shevchenko belongs just to one. --Irpen 15:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

POV pushing

Recent edits have made it clear to me that there might be ulterior motives associated with this list - in which case we will have to take up this dispute the to heads of wikipedia. This list from now on will on hold people who are fully or partly ethnic Ukrainians, Ukrainian-speaking, or contributed significantly to Ukrainian culture. This version includes Jews, Poles, and Russians who hold their allegiances to Ukraine as part of that nationality - but not people who were randomly born in the territory. Pecher's poor examples of other ethnics on lists such as List of Poles and List of Russians does not hold - for those people were either partly of the nationality or held allegiances to the nationality culturally as well as ancestry-wise.

to clarify: Russians who were born in Russia but worked in Ukraine do not go on this list, however, Russians who were born in Russia but held allegiances to Ukraine as a nation or separate culture do. HotelRoom 23:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The claims about "allegiance" make very little sense. First, neither List of Poles, nor any other similar lists mention any "allegiance" as their criterion. Thus, HotelRoom's opinion that Jews or Germans included in the List of Poles "held allegiances to the nationality culturally as well as ancestry-wise" is just a speculation. Secondly, "allegiance to Ukraine" is a highly subjective criterion. If it becomes the main criterion for the inclusion of people in the list, it may lead to permanent conflicts of opinion.

Finally, Ukraine is already featured in the lamest edit wars ever with a controversy over Kyiv v. Kiev spelling. It would be sad to have another Ukraine-related edit war on that list.

--Pecher 09:30, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

"Russians who were born in Russia but worked in Ukraine do not go on this list, . . ." But, for example, a Russian-born Soviet engineer who worked in Kharkiv and contributed to establishing an industry or technological expertise should be on this list. I don't know where Malyshev or Morozov were born, but they are immortalized in the names of the Malyshev Factory and Morozov Design Bureau. I haven't seen anything attesting to an ethnic or political allegiance to Ukraine, but they belong, even if Russian born. This probably would also apply to others who worked in Ukraine, but who didn't have industries named after them.

Simplistic rules like this will always find exceptions. Guidelines are just that, and some kind of interpretation will probably be necessary in every single case. —Michael Z. 2005-12-4 09:39 Z

I am once again startled to see that someone keeps removing certain people of non-Ukrainian ethnicity from the list; the sheer arbitrariness of those deletions highlights the correctness of the point I have made above: the introduction of "allegiance to Ukraine" or similarly vague criteria will remove any semblance of order from the list and make any agreement all but impossible. It should be obvious that those deletions will be reverted.--Pecher 19:43, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, Pecher, you have no idea what you're talking about. I have made any deletions I've conducted rather clear, and agree completely with HotelRoom's criteria - which makes perfect sense to me. I also do not agree with some additions of ethnic Germans to the list of Poles and have made sure ethnic Germans like Nernst (apparently he had Polish ancestry though), Fahrenheit, and Klitzing have been removed from the list. Antidote 21:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Page is protected

Please work out your differences. Use dispute resolution if need be. --Woohookitty 07:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

People to add once disputes are over

• Eduard Bagritsky
• Peter Wilhousky
• Vladimir von Pachmann

Composers

• Alexander Zlotnik
• Alexander Sparinsky

Sculptors

• Victor Konoval

Painters

• Petro Bevza
• Igor Gorin (painter)
• Alexander Klimenko

Historians

• Dmytro Doroshenko
• Volodymyr Antonovych

Uncompromising Nature of User:Pecher

Though I have attempted to find a consensus with him by requesting a page lock, he refused to respond during the entire page lock time and instead just waited until the page lock was taken off to revert to his original list, in the process deleting many new additions and readding peoples who have been certified as part of another nationality. It is beginning to appear that User:Pecher has very limited knowledge of Ukraine and may just be a user who likes to revert a lot, otherwise he would understand the - pretty much so - logical reasoning behind the exclusion of some Poles and Russians on this list. Another page lock will be requested if User:Pecher does not respond on the talk page and attempts to find a consensus with me and the others. Antidote 21:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

User:Antidote aka User:HotelRoom is subject to a request for comment for repeated violations related to lists by country and sock puppetry, please see Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Antidote. Arniep 22:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I see you have no comment in reference to this list. I can only assume you wish to contribute nothing further to this list. Any further reverts will simply be reverted back unless you explain exactly why you wish to delete my Ukrainian additions and replace them with Poles and Russians. I doubt you even realize (or care about) what you delete in the process. Antidote

Reasonable deletions

The following names are completely reasonable deletions

• Stanislaw Lem, Polish science fiction writer, author of Solaris

A Pole in every definition - he wrote in Polish, believed himself to be a Pole, has a more stereotypical Polish name (Stanislaw is more common in Polish than Ukrainian). It seems completely reasonable to remove him from this list as he has nothing to do with Ukraine.

• Juliusz Schauder

Also a Pole - Polish first name (analogous to Tadeusz)

• Bruno Schulz, one of the greatest Polish prose stylists of the 20th century, painter

Polish in every way - just because he's born in Ukrainian territory doesnt mean anything. Prior to 1930, Poland was a huge landmass stretching to Russia and incoporating Ukraine - where many Poles had settled and where many Polish cities resided.

• Ilya Ehrenburg, publicist

According to the Russian pages, Ilya was a certified Russian.

• Emanuel Feuermann, cellist (born in Austrian Galicia)

It says right in the description he was born in Galicia - which is hardly Ukrainian historically. His name is clearly of Germanic origin, hinting at obvious Austrian settlers in Polish Galicia of Austro-Hungarian Empire.

• Stanisław Marcin Ulam

Again the name and the allegiance, the language, everything - territory shifts do not change a persons nationaltiy or identity!

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Antidote (talk • contribs) 20:56, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Unreasonable deletions

These names were deleted without any foreseable reason as both are ukrainian and have implied allegiances to Ukraine.

Errors

• Lev Kopelev
• Vasily Grossman
• Solomon Nikritin

As far as I have researched these people are Ukrainian in some way - but Nikritin may have been of Russian origin.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Antidote (talk • contribs) 20:56, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Empty additions

In their edits, User:Antidote has made a number of additions of people to the list most of which fall into two categories:

1. People already on the list (e.g., Elena Vitrichenko);
2. Pages not existing in Misplaced Pages (e.g., Konstantin Dankevich, Stepan Degtiarev, Yuli Meitus etc.), the latter representing the overwhelming majority of their edits.

Therefore, I find little basis for claims by User:Antidote that their additions are of value and should not be reverted together with their arbitrary deletions of people from the list.--Pecher 09:22, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Good excuse. Lists are made for adding people without articles last time I checked. I may have overlooked Elena Vitrichenko if I added her twice. Nice try. Antidote 03:52, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

You never bother to say in the edit summary who those people are and why they are important. Moreover, you keep deleting description from a number of people without explanation. Your "additions" appear to be just a ploy aimed at making it more difficult for others to revert your deletions.--Pecher 11:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Standard for lists in Misplaced Pages

This is what Misplaced Pages:Lists (stand-alone lists)#Lists_of_people says: "List of Elbonians would include persons who are famous in any category and who belong to Elbonia. The criteria for identifying as an Elbonian may not depend on the official citizenship laws of that country - the person could be related to the place by birth, domicile, parents, or by his personal admission, consider himself an Elbonian at heart." That's very similar to the views of editors of this and similar lists, but never mentions that "allegiance" should be a defining criterion as User:Antidote advocates.--Pecher 11:57, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

If you take a gander at List of Germans the heading simply states Here is a list of famous Germans: Does this page follow the so-called "standards"? A quick overview of the entire list tells me that almost all (perhaps with the exclusion of a few Germanized peoples, like Liebniz and others) are, in fact, Germans in any definition. Now, take another gander at List of French people. There the heading says This list includes persons of French ethnic origins, which includes factors such as language, nationality and culture.. This list is no different from List of Ukrainians, for List of Ukrainians includes people who are ethnically Ukrainian (French ethnic origins, which includes factors such as language, nationality and culture.), Ukrainian-speaking (French ethnic origins, which includes factors such as language, nationality and culture.), alleged (French ethnic origins, which includes factors such as language, nationality and culture.) or have contributed or been associated with Ukraine significantly (French ethnic origins, which includes factors such as language, nationality and culture.) Antidote 18:44, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I am struggling to see your point. Instead of drawing parallels between factors that you propose for the List of Ukrainians, you just repeat the whole description for List of French people. I think I know why you do so: because there are no parallels to your favorite "allegiance", which is central to all your arguments. Neither List of French people, nor List of Germans, nor any other list mentions "allegiance" as a factor. These lists certainly follow the accepted "standards" because they do not exclude French or German Jews for some whimsical reason.--Pecher 22:00, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

You continue to fail to understand simple reasonings. Allegiances are the same thing as being "Ebolians by heart" as stated above. Maybe you did not understand this, and if so, I'm sorry for not being more specific. There is no "whimsical" reason for these deletions, they have been nicely addressed above your comments. What's quite whimsical is your complete disregard for the additions that have been put here since, and your dwelling on the deletions just to prove a point or win your position. As a matter of fact, List of French people addresses my factor quite adequately (and the point of mentioning List of Germans was to show not every list goes by your "Wikipedian" standards). It implies that there might be a disparity between "French as a nationality" and "French as an ethnicity". Just to give you an example: there is a debate over what allegiance people like Chopin had. He was a Pole by partial-blood and allegiance (as shown by his nationalistic compositions), but is also frequented as a Frenchmen for his time spent there etc... There are plenty of parallels to my allegiance comment and the most obvious one was in your "Elbolians" example above. I just may have phrased it differently than everyone else. Antidote 22:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The "Ebolans by heart" goes after the conjunction "or", i.e. it is one of the criteria sufficient to qualify for the list. You, however, insist that it should go after the conjucntion "and", i.e. no one can qualify unless he or she meets this criteria.--Pecher 22:43, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

There's nothing binding to having a list made in any which way. Editors use their own discretion to decide what is suitable for a list. As stated above, this can be seen in the headings of many lists. I haven't seen a single reason why you could disagree with the deletions that were made here, nor have I yet to hear why you so desperately want to have them here in the first place. A quick search of some of these names (take Ulam for example) shows where they were born.

From MacTutor Archive:

Born: 3 April 1909 in Lemberg, Poland, Austrian Empire

Which happens to be Lvov Ukraine today, but a quick biography scan reveals that Ulam was Polish. So because a certain town is Ukrainian today, we must include all their inhabitants? In that case, why aren't all famous Romans born in Gaul listed in List of French people? Antidote 23:57, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Form Misplaced Pages article on Ulam: "Stanisław Ulam was born to a Jewish family in Lviv (German: Lemberg; Polish: Lwów), Galicja, in Austria-Hungary, now in Ukraine." The article thus reveals that he was Jewish, although Polish-speaking. Why a person born in Ukraine cannot be included in the list still eludes me.--Pecher 07:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

As explained above, territorial shifts happen all the time, leaving many people of one nationality under the sovereignty of another. For example, the Netherlands were once part of Spain, but does that qualify us to put all Dutch people born during that time under List of Spaniards? Probably not. Ukrainian territory has shifted MAJORLY and so has Polish territory, which may explain how these people can get mixed up. Antidote

I don't find the example instructive. The Netherlands were a domain of Spanish Habsburgs for a historically brief period; no one claims that some Dutch city could just as well be called Spanish. The case of Lviv is entirely different. It is a historical Ukrainian city located on a historical Ukrainian territory, even though the majority of Lviv's population was Polish-speaking for most of the city's history.--Pecher 10:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Claiming a city as part of nation does not automatically deduce that the people born in that city should be listed under that nationality. You claim that Lvov could be considered just as Polish as Ukrainian because today it is Ukrainian. Fine. Well, take the Crimea for example. Today, it is Ukrainian, but historically it certainly was not (this is stated directly on the Ukrainian article). So, using your same logic, any person that was born in the area of Crimea (whether it be a Roman, an Ottoman, etc..) should be included in List of Ukrainians because today Ukrainians consider the Crimea theirs. There are many examples to give. Ragusa (or Dubrovnik) was for a hefty amount of time under the sovereignty of Italy, but I really can't see many Italians demanding that the Croatians born there at the time be included in List of Italians. (or vice versa) It may be true that some Italians still see Dubrovnik as theirs, but how does that lead to the inclusion of all those others born in Ragusa? Your rational for these additions is unsound, and only seems to be a method to get your way. Antidote 21:56, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

If you sincerely believe in your argument regarding the Crimea, why don't you delete Ivan Aivazovsky, who was an Armenian born in the Crimea? It looks like you just have a grudge against several people. I find your addition of "allegiance (by heart)" to the page summary especially amusing.--Pecher 11:11, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Because Ivan Aivazovsky contributed significantly to the art of Ukraine, and because he spoke Ukrainian as his native language (both discussed in the heading). I'm glad you find the addition amusing. I had to put it up there in order for you to understand what allegiance meant and how it's analogous to the "Ebolians by heart" standard, and in order for all the tons of others who you imply will get confused by it. Antidote

Where did you find that Aivazovsky spoke Ukrainian as his native language? And what is "art of Ukraine" from your perspective, especially with regards to painting?--Pecher 22:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I may obviously overlook some people, but there is some reason to include him on this list (though he may be more appropriate on list of Russians). First of all he Slavicized (or however you want to put it) his name (Aivazovsky). He has the Russian (im saying Russian to be inclusive here) first name 'Ivan'. He was under the apprenticeship of several peoples from Ukraine and Russia, and his tombstone is in both his ancestral Armenian and Russian (remember at this time the term Russian was delineated to anyone from Ukraine, and he worked in Russia). Therefore, it is safe to say he knew the language just as well as his ancestral Armenian, otherwise he just wouldnt function in his area of birth. Art of Ukraine is simply any art that is made by a countrymen and is categorized under that nationality. Aivazovsky was a Ukrainian (or at that time Tsarist Russian) countrymen and knew of it. People simply born in Ukraine through territorial changes over a period of time are usually not aware of it (a Roman born in Crimea) and often don't speak the language or sport anything in relation to the culture. There's absolutely no reason to include them. Aivazovsky was a representative of Tsarist Russian culture (which at that time included Ukrainian). He may belong more in the Russians list than Ukrainians list, yes, but he has cultural association enough with Ukraine to keep him here (but I wouldnt' necessarily object to moving him to list of Russians if he's not on there). Significant people who happen to be born in today's Ukrainian territory but don't sport anything of the culture of that area at that time don't. I have said it over and over again and explained it over and over again. You are simply dwelling on anything at this point. Antidote

Funny logic: "the term Russian was delineated to anyone from Ukraine", Aivazovsky spoke Russian, thus Ukrainian was Aivazovsky's native language. I also marvel at your discovery of the hitherto unknown Tsarist Russian culture, which not only existed, but also "at that time included Ukrainian" (probably, culture?).--Pecher 20:12, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

My logic wasn't that at all. You're misunderstanding - perhaps on purpose. I stated above that he probably DOES deserve to be on the Russians list much more than this list, but given the fact that he grew up in Ukraine, worked under Ukrainian apprentices, and there is significant implications that he spoke Ukrainian - he COULD be left on here -- if I must simplify it for you. Tsarist Russian culture is different than Communist Russian culture - I figured you would know this -- that's why there exist period delineations. I also thought you would know by now that there are countless Russian significant figures who were actually Ukrainian by heritage/culture/etc.. -- that is why it is difficult to distinguish between a historic Ukrainian or a historic Russian during certain time periods. It certainly isn't that hard to distinguish between other nationalities though. Antidote 05:36, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean when you say "there is significant implications that he spoke Ukrainian"? The sentence makes no sense to me. If you want to say that there are "indications" that Aivazovskiy spoke Ukrainian, I wonder what these indications are. More importantly, I earlier required people on the list to show allegiance to Ukraine; now you want them to be "Ukrainian by personal admission". So, when did Aivazovsky admit to being Ukrainian? In addition, you argued above that people born in the Crimea do not automatically qualify for the list by the place of birth, but now you say that Aivazovsky "grew up in Ukraine", i.e. the Crimea was part of Ukraine in XIX century. When did you change your mind? And if Crimea was part of Ukraine at that time, why Lviv wasn't?--Pecher 08:30, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I do however wish to add that if you see people on this list that you believe do not belong here, then I don't see why you can't delete them. Antidote

Problems with names

We might need a Ukrainian name expert to help us with this. This list has a lot of people with the name Mykaylo, Myhailo, Nikolai, Mykola, and/or Mikhail. I'm not sure which is the most appropriate transliteration into English. An example of this problem is shown below with several Ukrainian historians:

1. Mykhaylo Drahomanov
2. Mykhailo Hrushevsky
3. Mykhaylo Maksymovych

Also Oleksandr and Alexander are also similar naming problems. Can anyone help? Antidote

In cases above, Mykhaylo and Oleksandr should be used unless another speling is widely accepted in English. See Romanization of Ukrainian.--Pecher 20:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Shchukarev and Kruschev are unimportant people?

They were highly regarded and VERY important computer pioneers who also contributed to the fields of chemistry:

• (pdf)

Antidote

Not impressed. As for Shchukarev, "Pavel Dmitrievich Khrushchev (1849-1909) - professor of Kharkiv University. In 1897 reproduced the "logic piano" - a computer invented by English mathematitian William Stenly Jevans (1835-1882) in 1870." Shchukarev made only marginal improvements to the machine: "I have made an attempt to construct a somehow modified model bringing some improvements into Javons's structure. However, those improvements were not of principal character." These are hardly achievements that make people onto a Misplaced Pages list. Nearly all of Shchukarev's works were related to chemistry, so it can be argued that he could be put into the Chemists section, but not in Computer scientists. Furthermore, I do not believe we can speak of computer science as a separate field when those two scientists worked.--Pecher 22:39, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure about Krushchev; you make a good point - he probably should not be included. However, I am doubtful of your claim that Shchukarev's computer science work does not merit inclusion. The fact that there are sources which speak highly of Shchukarev's work in computer technology makes me think he should definitely have an article and one with a mention of his work in computing. Again if his successes are outweighed in chemistry than yes he can be put under chemists. For now, I'll leave him under the computer science section. Antidote

Descriptions

Brief descriptions in the list found after a person's name serve a very useful purpose of briefly stating who the person is and why he is important. Descriptions are even more useful for people with no articles because there may be no other Misplaced Pages source providing information on that person. Antidote, however, persistently removes descriptions from many people in the list, such as Opanas Slastion, Kazimir Malevich, David Burliuk, to name just a few, without explaining why he does so. That is hardly a sound approach and any such deletions should be restored. Furthermore, it is advisable to provide such brief descriptions when a person without article is added to the list, so that readers and other editors had some idea as to who that person is.--Pecher 22:52, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

No, you can add the description, but not in the reverts. Just do it manually. I don't care about those. Antidote

If you didn't care, you wouldn't delete them. You know very well that it's more difficult to add something than to delete it. This is simply yet another action on your part aimed at making the work of other editors more difficult.--Pecher 16:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

If anyone makes work more difficult its you for me. In the process of reverts you delete plenty of material for the sake of a lot less (most of which takes no effort to put back in manually). Antidote 05:28, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Andy Warholic

This subject is a good example of the obfuscation that has been targeted at things Ukraine. As a matter of fact, the Rusyns no longer exist as they did in the 30's when they became the first of WWII. These people emmigrated out of the Carpathians prior to the war or were forcibly relocated to Ukraine after the war.

The bottom line is that the Rusyns no longer exist geopolitically and they are largely living in Ukraine - that place which most approximates their language, culture, and geneology.

Re: Warhol, I am led to understand that the family name prior to americanization is "Warholic" and that besides name changing at Ellis Island, Rusyn immigrants were subject to genological brainwashing by various US institutions. As such, they came to "learn" that they were (alternately) "Hunkeys" (stemming from a long occupation by Austro Hungarians), "Pollacks", Lemkos, Little Russians, Rusyns, Carpatho Russians, Carpatho Rusyns, Ukrainians, etc. In this way, one of the last sizable waves of prewar immigrants was splintered and precluded from developing critical mass - socially or politically.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Spanalot (talk • contribs) 16:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

The Rusyns biography says they are simply Ukrainians who were historically under the hegemony of Austria-Hungary and then Czechoslovakia. They developed a separate culture from their fatherland but since they no longer exist as an entirely separate entity. It's probably best to put them in here. Antidote 05:30, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

===Conclusive Talk to end edit war=== Antidote

Poles born in Lwów, Poland (now Ukraine)

Marian Cardinal Jaworski is not a Ukrainian, he is Pole by language and ethnicity born on former Polish-ruled lands. If he would be included on this list, perhaps Paul von Hindenburg should be included in the list of Poles for having been born on current Polish terrority.

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