Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:44, 2 January 2010

• WP:GS/CC/RE

This board is for users to request enforcement under the terms of the climate change article probation. Requests should take the following format:

{{subst:Climate Sanction enforcement request
| User against whom enforcement is requested          
  = <Username>
| Sanction or remedy that this user violated 
  = ]
| Diffs of edits that violate it, and an explanation how they do so 
  <!-- When providing several diffs, please use a numbered list as in this example. -->
=<p>
#  <Explanation>
#  <Explanation>
#  <Explanation>
# ...
| Diffs of prior warnings
=<p>
#  Warning by {{user|<Username>}}
#  Warning by {{admin|<Username>}}
# ...
| Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction) 
  = <Your text>
| Additional comments 
  = <Your text>
}}

This will generate a structure for managing the request including a second level header. Please place requests underneath the following divider, with new requests at the bottom of the page. For instructions on generating diff links, see Help:Diff.

For Requests for refactoring of Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines violations only, comments by parties other than the requester, the other party involved, and the reviewing/actioning/archiving editor will be removed.

Request concerning User:GoRight

• GoRight (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log).
• Incivility, personal attacks, assumptions of bad faith and edit warring on William M. Gray following the implementation of climate change article probation. Diff: (note edit summary: "rv: I dispute that this is WP:UNDUE. I assert that this is a tendentious edit because Chris is a well known AGW POV pusher who knows that there are other editors objecting to this change.") It should be noted that this followed my first and so far only edit to this article. GoRight previously reverted User:Tony Sidaway's edit of the same content: without any edit summary or any explanation or comment on the article talk page. This conduct represents all four of the behaviours prohibited by this probation: edit warring, personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith. ChrisO (talk) 04:24, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

In response to Tony: I would certainly be content for GoRight to be let off with a warning. The important point about this article probation is that editors should be encouraged to raise their game and end problematic behaviours. -- ChrisO (talk) 05:11, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

In response to Thparkth: I added the probation template message to the article's talk page , noticed some content I thought was out of place, and took it out. That was my first and only edit to the article. I certainly wasn't expecting GoRight's response, especially not after the initiation of the probation regime. This isn't a case of "using probation as a weapon" - his action was a completely unprovoked personal attack out of the blue. I was under the impression that we were trying to deter that sort of thing. Absurdly, GoRight is now attacking me for adding the template to CC-related articles, which one would have thought was an uncontroversial chore for which I've been thanked. It just shows you can't please some people, I guess. -- ChrisO (talk) 05:22, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

In response to GoRight: The article probation notification was posted by myself to Talk:William M. Gray at 03:52, 2 January 2010 (UTC) . Your first comment about the probation was at 05:07, 2 January 2010 (UTC). You made your edit to William M. Gray at 05:13, 2 January 2010 (UTC). Therefore, at the time you made that edit, you knew the probation had been enacted. -- ChrisO (talk) 05:35, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

In response to Lar: Good idea. The point is to modify unhelpful behaviour, not to punish people. -- ChrisO (talk) 05:37, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Comments by parties against whom enforcement is requested

(1) I dispute the validity of these sanctions as noted at ANI. --GoRight (talk) 05:22, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

(2) However, in the interest of playing along, the Climate change probation page states the following:

"Any editor may be sanctioned by an uninvolved administrator for disruptive edits, including, but not limited to, edit warring, personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith."

Following the link to disruptive edits we find the following:

A disruptive editor is an editor who:

• Is tendentious: continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from one or more other editors. Tendentious editing does not consist only of adding material; some tendentious editors engage in disruptive deletions as well."

It is widely known that ChrisO has been pushing a pro-AGW POV all over the climate change articles over an extended timeframe and he knows that there are multiple editors who disagree with his POV. His summary above clearly indicates that he was aware that others had been objecting to his edit yet he persisted anyway, see "GoRight previously reverted User:Tony Sidaway's edit of the same content: without any edit summary or any explanation or comment on the article talk page." By the above description this is tendentious editing and, assuming that these sanctions are determined to be valid, he should be blocked for 1 year for tendentious editing.

In addition, the edit on which he is relying occurred prior to the enactment of these sanctions and so is wholly out of scope for any action against me. I cannot be sanctioned under this probation for behavior that clearly occurred before the probation was in place. HIS edit, however, clearly occurred AFTER the enactment of the sanctions to which he is appealing and so clearly DO fall within the scope of the sanctions. This should be taken into account whether or not the enactment of these sanctions is deemed valid. --GoRight (talk) 05:22, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

• @ChrisO: Clarification. When I said "the edit on which he is relying occurred prior to the enactment of these sanctions" I was responding to your statement that I quoted above, namely "GoRight previously reverted User:Tony Sidaway's edit of the same content: without any edit summary or any explanation or comment on the article talk page.". That edit occurred at 03:06, 29 December 2009 which was before the sanctions were enacted. I apologize for being imprecise. --GoRight (talk) 09:02, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Comments by other users

• Does not appear to be a serious request to me. Suggest that User:ChrisO be cautioned against frivolous requests. Nothughthomas (talk) 05:03, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

• I think this request is rather premature. I'd rather let editors get a feel for how the system works before requesting sanctions. GoRight's use of edit summaries for accusations seem a little off and perhaps he should be warned about this (and having said that I think we could all raise our game) . --TS 05:07, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

• In my (completely unqualified) opinion, there is a danger that this probation protocol will itself become a weapon in the war between the two "sides" that it is meant to cool down. I think this request may be an example of that. Thparkth (talk) 05:15, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

With the greatest respect for user:Thparkth opinion here, I do not believe this to be the case. In point of fact I note that User:GoRight and myself are on absolutely opposite sides of the climate "debate" and yet we both hold identical opinions to the enforcement request against both he and User:ChrisO. Nothughthomas (talk) 05:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Let me clarify for the benefit of both ChrisO and Nothughthomas that I don't think this is necessarily a bad-faith or even conscious action (using the sanctions as a weapon) but we are all human after all, and we all react fairly predictably when our feelings are hurt. Thparkth (talk) 05:30, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for that clarification. As someone who was just blocked for filing a complaint against User:ChrisO I understand that some editors can take enforcement requests personally and in a heated way and all of us are in danger from retribution blocks/bans when we file enforcement actions against admins. That said, I think we should all calm down and take a deep breath and deal with these in a professional and judicial manner. I think it's heartening that both User:GoRight and myself have put aside our editing differences to come together in common ground on the User:ChrisO question (below) and it could serve as a model of team work for this enforcement question as well. Nothughthomas (talk) 05:33, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

• Some discussion has to be the first one. The one below is highly frivolous and doesn't count. Let us not let this protocol be used the way Thparkth fears, but instead do as Tony asks and raise our game... work through what was alleged here and whether it has merit and try to do the right thing. ++Lar: t/c 05:18, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

  I concur. We should start from the recognition that GoRight is a known editor who has contributed to the discussions for a very long time. He should not be given special treatment; nor should he be abused. Those who push for harsh sanctions to be applied today will certainly, if successful, find the same standards used against their own conduct. We should first look to our own conduct and ensure that it is in keeping with the best Misplaced Pages practice. --TS 05:22, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

  Thanks Tony. On the diffs given here's my thinking, the application of the article probation notice by ChrisO () seems reasonable enough, that article seems clearly within scope of the sanctions as a BLP of a climate (hurricane) research scientist. The edit by GoRight () may well have merit, I won't pass judgement on it, let the talk page participants decide that. But the edit summary GoRight used wasn't helpful, let's not cast aspersions needlessly. GoRight perhaps should be cautioned that we really need everyone on their best behaviour. I suggest we leave it at that for now. Thoughts? ++Lar: t/c 05:32, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

GoRight's actual edit seems legitimate, at least in the sense that it was well-intentioned. Really the only question is whether he used intemperate language in his edit summary. Perhaps not just GoRight, but everyone involved, should be reminded of the expectation that they behave with the utmost civility and good faith to one another. Thparkth (talk) 05:57, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Is it intemperate to assert points that are clearly supported by policy as I have shown above? --GoRight (talk) 06:02, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

It's intemperate if you do so using intemperate language! You could have - and in my opinion, should have - written that edit summary in a less confrontational manner. But I don't think it's a hanging offence... Thparkth (talk)

What part of my statement used intemperate language? Seriously? Did I use any terms inappropriately given the policies as I have cited them above? Am I allowed to revert tendentious edits which are against wiki policies/guidelines and these very sanctions and to cite that policy or guideline as the reason? I not only cited the relevant behavioral problem that the description of these sanctions had directed me to, but provided a detailed analysis of why the offense was a violation thereof. In what way is this not a model example of an edit summary? For example, how would you have worded the edit summary while providing the same information? --GoRight (talk) 08:30, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

T: Nod. G: What is being asked is that in future you raise your game. As an involved party, be on your best behavior, and cast no aspersions on others. Leave the judgements on behavior of others to the "mean old admins" who are trying to stay out of the edits themselves and who thus can try to make this regime work. We get that you oppose trying this. But we, the larger community, tire of these brushfires and are going to try this. With or without you. Unless you want to be watching from the penalty box, up your game. That applies to everyone. ++Lar: t/c 06:13, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

This is an exceptionally provocative statement and rises to the level of wikithreat. Since this discussion has descended into a battle between (1) a cabal of admins on one side and (2) a vast and diverse coalition of free speech supporters on the other, I strongly suggest consensus for bringing in a fresh batch of admins to deal with this as tempers have clearly boiled over. Respectfully submitted - Nothughthomas (talk) 06:21, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) I haven't been involved in any of this climate change dispute, but I'm inclined to start quickly blocking any users who continue to start or stoke drama, hostility, or other types of disruptive editing around here. Enough is enough. --MZMcBride (talk) 07:27, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

• At risk of being blocked for having an opposite thought, my thought is that User:GoRight should not be subject to warning. I, more likely than anyone, would find his edits incendiary - as I am on the absolute opposite side of the climate debate as he and we have had more than one run-on - however I thought what he said was 110% perfectly reasonable and did not believe it violated any WP. I move to reject the warning proposal and counter-move to propose consensus for recognition of User:GoRight with a Barnstar for the contributions he has made to improving wikipedia. Nothughthomas (talk) 05:41, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

  You're welcome to have, and share, your views. VERY welcome. You are just not welcome to act disruptively by filing frivolous requests, engaging in mockery by using the exact wording of others, making claims about other people's rearrangement of sections, and the like. ++Lar: t/c 05:52, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

• I don't want to see these restrictions turned into the standard one-upmanship that everything on Misplaced Pages turns into, but "I assert that this is a tendentious edit because Chris is a well known AGW POV pusher who knows that there are other editors objecting to this change" is not acceptable behavior. Something is a tendentious edit because of the edit, not the editor. Hipocrite (talk) 05:42, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

  See my statement above. And, BTW, you are completely incorrect in your assertion. Tendentious editing is a behavior of the editor, the "edit" itself is inanimate and incapable of exhibiting any form of behavior. --GoRight (talk) 05:52, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

  Agree with User:GoRight and I have just awarded him a Barnstar for the contributions he has made to peacefully resolving disputes. This enforcement page is a testament to good will when pro and anti-climate change sides can unite to support free speech. I wish those attempting to stamp it out could take a lesson from User:GoRight and my cooperation. Nothughthomas (talk) 06:00, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, in this case it appears these sanctions have become another uncivil weapon, with little purpose to achieving a productive and strong NPOV, which it wiki's first principle. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 06:48, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

  Agreed. User:GoRight should be exonerated and a public apology should be required of the original complainant under penalty of desysoping. Nothughthomas (talk) 07:16, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

  Note: Nothughthomas has been blocked by MZMcBride for disruptive editing.  Sandstein  08:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

• I agree with MZMcBride and Hipocrite that the edit summary is exactly the sort of battleground-like behavior that the community sanction was intended to prevent. But this is a hasty request with no prior warning as required by the sanction. For now, we should close this with a warning to GoRight that he is subject to sanctions if he continues to make combative edits of this sort.  Sandstein  08:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

  I will repeat my question from above and direct it to you as well: "What part of my statement used intemperate language? Seriously? Did I use any terms inappropriately given the policies as I have cited them above? Am I allowed to revert tendentious edits which are against wiki policies/guidelines and these very sanctions and to cite that policy or guideline as the reason? I not only cited the relevant behavioral problem that the description of these sanctions had directed me to, but provided a detailed analysis of why the offense was a violation thereof. In what way is this not a model example of an edit summary? For example, how would you have worded the edit summary while providing the same information?" --GoRight (talk) 08:53, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

  Here are the words you put into the edit summary: "I dispute that this is WP:UNDUE. I assert that this is a tendentious edit because Chris is a well known AGW POV pusher who knows that there are other editors objecting to this change." I know how this kind of thing can happen when tempers are frayed, but still calling someone "a well known AGW POV pusher" is the sort of thing we all should be aiming to eradicate. Having said that I did think the filing was premature and I think Chris Owen should think carefully about the danger of appearing to use this probation as a weapon with which to settle scores, rather than as a safety valve to prevent the atmosphere steadily degrading. A word or two on your talk page might have been better, or he could have swallowed it during this early bedding-in period when we're all just getting used to working with the sanctions. --TS 09:00, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

  I agree with Tony, also as regards ChrisO. GoRight, in reply to your question, calling a colleague "a well known AGW POV pusher" reflects a WP:BATTLE mentality and assumes bad faith. The edit summary is for voicing objections to the edit itself that you revert, but not for attacking the editor who made it.  Sandstein  09:10, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

  What is the politically correct way of saying that his edit "continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from one or more other editors. Tendentious editing does not consist only of adding material; some tendentious editors engage in disruptive deletions as well", is therefore tendentious and considered disruptive, and therefore is a violation of these sanctions? I was obviously prepared to make that case (see my statement above) which is why I said what I said. I simply wanted to be prepared to bring a case here, should it come to that, which it obviously did. --GoRight (talk) 09:35, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

  One thing that would help (IMHO) is don't do it in edit summaries. The same point, made on a talk page where one has extra wordage to fully give context and where it can be part of give an take, will often seem softer. Edit summaries should strive to be as neutral and judgment free as possible. Again IMHO. ++Lar: t/c 14:15, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to make a note concerning an odd claim that NHT makes: "I am on the absolute opposite side of the climate debate as ". This is bizarre; or show that he is on the skeptic side, just like GR. There is nothing wrong with that in itself; but there is everything wrong with pleading for GR and asking for extra weight by pretending to be on the other "side". William M. Connolley (talk) 11:00, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Wow, thanks for sharing that, very significant. ++Lar: t/c 14:15, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

GoRight: On tendentiousness... Many people now have opined that you ought to be given a warning and that ought to be that. The very first real request is not the place to throw the book. But I have to say that your digging in and insisting that even a warning isn't justified... isn't making you look good. After this performance, if you turn up here again, I bet some people will want to treat you much more harshly than if you'd said "Thanks, I'll keep everyone's advice in mind" and went off and done that. IMHO of course. ++Lar: t/c 14:15, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

• Exactly so. And as a summary of the outcome of this discussion you're probably as close as we're going to get: GoRight should consider himself warned, no further action on this, the first occurrence under the article restrictions. Guy (Help!) 18:44, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Result

Request concerning User:ChrisO

Request concerning Lar