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Re : Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern European mailing list

This arbitration case has been closed, and the final decision may be viewed at the link above.

• User:Piotrus resigned the administrator tools during the case proceedings and may only seek to regain adminship by a new request for adminship or by request to the Arbitration Committee.
• User:Piotrus is banned for three months. At the conclusion of his ban, a one year topic ban on articles about Eastern Europe, their talk pages, and any related process discussion, widely construed, shall take effect.
• User:Digwuren is banned for one year. He is directed to edit Misplaced Pages from only a single user account, and advise the Arbitration Committee of the name of the account that he will use. Should he not advise the committee by the end of the one year ban, he will remain indefinitely banned until a single account is chosen.
• User:Digwuren is placed on a one year topic ban on articles about Eastern Europe, their talk pages, and any related process discussion, widely construed. This shall take effect following the expiration of both above mentioned bans.
• The following users are topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed, for one year:

• User:Biruitorul, User:Dc76, User:Martintg, User:Miacek, User:Radeksz, User:Vecrumba, User:Tymek

• User:Jacurek is topic banned from articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed, for six months.
• User:Tymek is strongly admonished for having shared his account password. He is directed to keep his account for his own exclusive use, and not to allow any other person to use it under any circumstance.
• The editors sanctioned above (Piotrus, Digwuren, Martintg, Tymek, Jacurek, Radeksz, Dc76, Vecrumba, Biruitorul, Miacek) are prohibited from commenting on or unnecessarily interacting with Russavia on any page of Misplaced Pages, except for purposes of legitimate and necessary dispute resolution.
• All the participants to the mailing list are strongly admonished against coordinating on-wiki behavior off-wiki and directed to keep discussion of editing and dispute resolution strictly on wiki and in public. All editors are reminded that the editorial process and dispute resolution must take place on Misplaced Pages itself, using the article talk pages and project space for this purpose. No discussion held off-wiki can lead to a valid consensus, the basis of our editorial process. Off-wiki coordination is likely to lead to echo chambers where there is a false appearance of neutrality and consensus.

For the Arbitration Committee, Mailer Diablo 17:41, 22 December 2009 (UTC) - Discuss this

A little bit of advice

Using italics, bold, and underlining in the same paragraph is generally frowned upon. It is considered acceptable to choose one form of emphasis and stick to it, but only if you use it sparingly. Mixing and matching all three is like wearing a plaid shirt with plaid pants. Viriditas (talk) 16:12, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I only emphasize in plaid when it appears I need to when individuals are missing the point. (I use wikEd precisely because it supports all the nuances of plaid I employ.) Besides, those who have known me longer have come to expect it. Alas, it appears my shortcomings as a fashion plate not only extend to my literary style but are likely to continue. Enjoy the holidays.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  14:06, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Understood. I'm glad you took my criticism in stride, as it was meant to be somewhat humorous. As for your "literary style", I find your prose quality to be second to none, and greatly admire it. You're an excellent writer. Viriditas (talk) 03:15, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for that. Hopefully you'll find that if you consider what I have to say and why and less on labels others have chosen to stick on my forehead to further their editorial agenda you'll find I'm not here to "push" anything. More generally speaking, as when I was at times "outnumbered" ("consensus"-wise) editing on Transnistria where two paid sock-puppeteering propagandists were involved, it doesn't matter how many of some so-called consensus show up as long as you focus on the editorial position being espoused and deal with the interpretation and presentation of sources: is the source reputable? is it being represented fairly and accurately? :-)  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  15:52, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Jstor

I noticed you said you pay for Jstor articles. I have access to Jstor and could help with research if you need it. MBisanz 21:16, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Technically I have access too, but only at NYPL in the city, not at my local Brooklyn library, and at NYPL I can only get printed (paid for, I think it was $1/page) copies. I'll definitely keep your offer in mind, much appreciated!  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  21:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Mass killings under Communist regimes

I have made a request for clarification about whether Mass killings under Communist regimes and similar articles are included under the EEML topic ban. If you would like to reply, my query is posted at . The Four Deuces (talk) 01:43, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

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Your recent edits to EE-related topics

Vecrumba, it has been brought to my attention per e-mail that you have arguably violated your arbitral topic ban from Eastern Europe-related subjects and discussions (WP:EEML#Vecrumba topic banned) by your recent edits at , and . I would appreciate any statement that you might want to make about this.  Sandstein  22:31, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Dear Sandstein:

1. I corrected a mistake of my own which had Kaupo on the wrong side based on a source which was erroneous. The dawn of the 13th century is far removed from the area of EE geopolitical conflict, and the correction was completely unrelated to anything Russian/Soviet, or indeed Russian contemporary with that time. If this edit is strictly off limits, my sincerest apologies, it did not even cross my mind that a simple fix to my own mistake on an 800-year-old event unrelated to Russian-Baltic relations (of any manner) posed an issue.
2. I thanked an editor generally perceived to be an antagonist of mine for following up on my question on an article which has clearly been an area of bad blood. Note that I indicated the information would assist (other) editors (as I would not be participating at the article). I do not expect my ban to mandate rude conduct on my part, that is, to forbid expressing thanks to an editor. I have always stated I am glad to engage in good faith with any editor based on a discussion of reputable sources. That includes publicly thanking those editors when they contribute positively regardless of perceptions of "sides." I believe positive public communication and courteous conduct across the alleged battle lines is in keeping with appropriate collegial Wiki-conduct. I should also make it clear that, obviously, I did not consider Pantherskin's answer as baiting me in any way to elicit a response. I strongly feel my public expression of goodwill was not only appropriate but necessary.
3. Another change had been made to Aspic and I had not noticed that I had not put in the Latvian name for it, which is very similar to Polish. I'm quite flummoxed that someone has complained about this although Russavia did immediately accuse me of gross violation of my topic ban. (Of course, anyone could have contacted you regarding my conduct, I'm not speculating it was Russavia.) When Russavia did accuse me, I did ask in that same thread if this could possibly be a violation. It has/was not been identified as such, so I had considered it closed. Indeed it was suggested, not by myself, to Russavia that it would be better for them to drop the topic. So, again, I'm rather taken aback as this was already publicly discussed and settled.

You will note I've been keeping busy at Soon and Baliunas controversy and Misplaced Pages:Article Incubator/Comparison between Roman and Han Empires. Controversial topics can always benefit from an editorial perspective based on representing reputable sources in a fair and accurate manner. I hope this suitably addresses your concerns.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  04:33, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

P.S. I detest doing diffs as I associate them with attempts to control content by attacking editors. That said, if you do require diffs to anything I've mentioned, please feel free to ask and I'll insert the appropriate Wiki-links.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  04:41, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your statement. Nonetheless, regardless of their nature or subject, or the reason you had for making them, the edits relate to the topic of Eastern Europe (which is what you are banned from, not just Russia-Baltic relations) and violate your topic ban. I'd appreciate a link to the discussion that you say has taken place regarding the Aspic diff, and I'd like to know whether you intend to continue making similar edits.  Sandstein  06:39, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

(od) Hello Sandstein. I apologize in advance for the bad mood I find myself while doing diffs.

First of all, if an editor has an issue with me, I request they file an enforcement request and not solicit admins off-Wiki to act as their proxy to lodge their complaints. We had Dojarca lobbying Hiberniantears as their proxy, then Offliner lobbying Jehochman as their proxy. I have the utmost respect for your own conduct in this brouhaha, I would prefer not to consider you as acting as proxy on behalf of a combative complainant who wishes to stay out of the limelight and to put the stamp of admin approval on their complaint regarding my conduct. (And I believe you were picked with an agenda in mind based on perceptions of your even-handedness, not to mention the whole Offliner and my Email to you unpleasantness.)

In reviewing past threads, I would also request that when I ask questions of ArbCom that I not be lectured as to appropriate conduct going forward by editors who filed evidence against me which, IMHO, only substantiated their own disruptive conduct in terms of provocative, insulting, and otherwise disruptive edits.

Working backwards:

Regarding Aspic

• Russavia responds to my queries as if they are in charge and accuses me of violating my ban at Aspic
• my terse response
• Carcharoth provides a constructive and helpful response and, to Rusavia: "Russavia, I would suggest not getting involved in this."
• Note Carcharoth's additional clarification that any questions are to be handled through clarification/enforcement
• I thank Carcharoth, noting that I still require some clarification
• And I ask for clarification on the Aspic article, as it is a food article and not about EE (this is December 29th)

There's been no response from Arbcom, so, as I indicated, being that a week has passed, I thought it was closed.

Regarding Lia Looveer and my thanks to Pantherskin

I am sure they woulld confirm that we tend to see things more different than alike—nevertheless I respect their editorial POV because it tends to be based on sources which can then be discussed. I considered thanking them off-Wiki, however, that was not plausible as that might lead to discussion of article content off-Wiki which I have taken as being discouraged, so at that point, whether I responded to them at the article talk or on their user talk, it was likely I was going to be accused of violating the ban. If you believe I should be pilloried for an act of good faith, I would hope you nevertheless respect my position on this.

On the article correction. I re-read Carcharoth's helpful response and reverted my correction as I can see where, even though unrelated to the area of conflict, this falls under widely construed.

Finally, you already informed me you consider all three edits to have violated my topic ban. I do not, but that is not material at this point. That was quite sufficient. And so I find your subsequent inquiry as to "I'd like to know whether you intend to continue making similar edits" both derogatory and insulting as it implies I'm a disruptive asshole intent on pushing the limits of my topic ban. If you did not mean it that way, my apologies that it is the way I take it after the manner in which I have been treated.

Again, in the future, should anyone wish to accuse me of violations of conduct, I expect them to file an enforcement request as themselves and not shield themselves in anonymity. Your indulging such a request only encourages off-Wiki conflict waging in the future. As we are laying ground rules, what I would have expected is for you to respond to the complainant to tell them to file an enforcement request, where you could then respond appropriately. I trust that any future accusations and resolution thereof will be done in the open. Please do not take my response or tone personally, however, the way this accusation regarding my conduct originated and was handled tastes like a continuation of the conflict and not moving forward in good faith.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  01:18, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I would normally ask users to file enforcement requests instead of e-mailing me, but the user at issue has a legitimate reason for not doing so. Any conflicts you may have had with others, though, are irrelevant to my request for comment, which is only about your own edits. I take it that your correction means that you will not make similar ban-infringing edits in the future, and so no enforcement is required at this time. You are warned, though, that all edits relating to Eastern Europe, not only those relating to Russia-Baltic relations, fall under your ban. This warning is logged on the case page. Please also consider that in the event of any uncertainty about the ban's scope, you should assume that the edit in question is subject to the ban, unless and and until you receive clear advice to the contrary from ArbCom through a request for clarification (Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification); a request in any other forum or advice by anybody else (especially if the answer is not a clear "go ahead") may not be sufficient to prevent an inadvertent violation of the ban. Regards,  Sandstein  06:13, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Hello Sandstein. Perhaps people might consider that Misplaced Pages editors such as myself might wish to communicate off-Wiki for legitimate reasons as well. As I indicated, I specifically asked about Aspic and received no answer, so I expect that your response here pointing me to clarification means that any such requests for clarification will be addressed in a timely manner; further, that editors who presented against me at EEML evidence will be discouraged from responding on the behalf of ArbCom/admins, such response constituting harassment. Lastly, while I am confident based on past conduct that you personally are objective in all of this regardless of means of contact, I am not at all sanguine regarding the prospects of no anti-"nationalist" anti-"plague" axe-grinding on the part of other admins. I regret my WP:AGF gas tank has run dry. Thanks for your timely response.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  14:16, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Since I am not authorized to speak for ArbCom, I cannot confirm that any requests for clarification will be addressed in a timely manner or that other editors will be discouraged from doing anything that is not disruptive. Only ArbCom may address such concerns.  Sandstein  14:20, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Noted. If I don't receive a timely response to clarification I'll contact an ArbCom member or Email ArbCom. Best regards, Peters  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  14:27, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I would also like to remind you that per WP:EEML#Editors restricted, you are prohibited from commenting on Russavia on any page of Misplaced Pages, except for purposes of legitimate and necessary dispute resolution. Your comments above, , are in violation of this restriction, insofar as they are not necessary to resolve any dispute between you and Russavia. Please do not repeat this as well.  Sandstein  14:31, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Understood. That means that Russavia responding to me on my questions regarding clarifications et al. is to be considered baiting and I need not/should not respond. You did ask ME for clarification. That Russavia's name came up is not my fault, it is theirs for harassing (my perception) me.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  14:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

No, it was you who brought up that username in this thread. Your most recent comments, above, again violate your arbitration restriction from commenting on Russavia, despite my warning immediately above. In enforcement of that restriction, you are blocked for 24 hours. You may appeal this block using the {{unblock}} template, or to WP:AE; use the {{helpme}} template to ask an editor to copy any appeal to that board.  Sandstein  16:01, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

The reference in question was inevitably part of the conversation, being integral to the Aspic thread. I thought we were done. I regret your general tone that I am dealing with my ban in bad faith, also that you felt it necessary to come back and issue an additional warning to which I responded. I did not mention that editor out of thin air regarding something not directly pertinent to your original inquiry or request for clarification thereof.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  17:04, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Request for unblock

I apologize for my mention of the editor in question above, which prima facie violates my ban. They were part of the clarification requested. I thought we were done. I believe my response stating that responses to myself by editors presenting against me at the EEML case when I am asking ArbCom for clarification constitute a form of unwelcome harrassment is appropriate. I did not request said editor to respond to my query. I have not brought up said editor in on-Wiki dialog except as prompted here. It would have been sufficient for Sandstein to state the three edits violated my ban. I would have apologized and we would have been done. I regret that I found continued harping (my perception) implying I am dealing with my ban in bad faith utterly offensive. That said, I am glad to apologize for any inappropriate conduct particularly as I respect Sandstein and do not wish this to go down the black hole of continued conflict and would like to move on.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  17:04, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Had I not been told that people accusing me of misconduct have legitimate rights which prevent me from knowing the identity of my accuser did not improve my attitude, and for that I do apologize.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  17:20, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I trust that you will not continue to make comments regarding that editor, except where directly necessary (as I strongly hope will not be the case) to resolve a dispute between you and he. Your block is lifted. I believe that moving on would be a very good idea. Regards,  Sandstein  17:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. As I've mentioned I am considering appealing my topic ban, however, finding a way to do so without simply recycling the conflict (regardless of my personal views regarding disruption and responsibility thereof), that is, in a way which can be viewed as progress, presents a challenge.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  18:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Note that Sandstein used word "related", which was not in Arbcom ruling. This way you can not edit anything about Lion Feuchtwanger because he visited Moscow and wrote about this, and you can not edit Jack London because he was very popular in Russia. You can not edit Hugo Chávez or Kim Jong-il because they are friends of Putin. You can not edit Cayman Islands because Russian oligarchs keep their money there. You can not edit anything about drug or human trafficking, money laundering, or Middle East affairs, because Easter Block countries were active in this region during Cold War. Even music and art served political goals in the former Soviet Union. Do not even try to edit anything about Swan Lake ballet, because it was on the Russian TV during August Putsch. Everything is related to everything, and you know this well. Just do not waste your time here - this is my advice, and you know that I am your friend. I am not going to waste a lot of my time here as well.Biophys (talk) 03:44, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

There are many other ways to explain the same. There was a play by Evgeny Shvarts about Lancelot who killed the Dragon but became a Dragon himself because killing others makes everyone a Dragon and because power corrupts. No, the play is not about you, me or Sandstein. It's about everyone. Speaking simple language, it's not a pleasure to edit on this site where people treat each other like shit (we treat them and they treat us). The battle comes from the fundamental problem. This site suppose to operate by consensus, which works just fine when all sides know the subject and agree to use good sources. But there could be no consensus between good sources and propaganda sources, just like between the science and pseudoscience. The middle ground (consensus) between big lie and the truth is ... lie (said Bukovsky). We do not want to be involved in lies.Biophys (talk) 16:02, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Language matters

With regard to someone we are not allowed to talk about and his favorite slogan "Preved, Medved!", do you know the etymology of Russian word "Medved'" (the bear)? Literal translation from old Russian means "someone who knows how to find honey". He was called this way (that is indirectly) because calling this dangerous animal directly was believed to attract the animal to the caller. So, let's not do it.Biophys (talk) 04:32, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Da, tovarishch! :-)  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  15:28, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Blocked

A week ago, you were briefly blocked for commenting on Russavia in violation of Misplaced Pages:EEML#Editors_restricted. After undertaking not to do the it again, you were unblocked. I find this edit of yours disappointing given the above discussion, it is a flagrant violation. WP:AE is not dispute resolution (nor were you directly involved in the issue)

Given the unproductive heat in the topic area, and battleground behavior of both sides, the arbcom imposed rules will be strictly enforced until that subsides. Unfortunately, I have thus felt it necessary to reinstate the 24 hour block. Please stay well clear of that editor in the future. henrik•talk 15:00, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Only on WP is an act of good faith, that is, agreeing that my antagonist is a valuable contributor and should be allowed to do so in areas of expertise OUTSIDE THE DIRECT AREA OF CONFLICT a blockable offense. Really, is the point to punish me and to disaffirm the possibility of editors perceived to be antagonistic to each other acknowledging other's positive contributions to eventually (as I am topic banned) re-engage in the area of conflict in a more positive manner? Unfortunately I took "commenting on Russavia" as meaning a continuation of the gutter sniping that has been going on (that is, criticism). And my edit in no way interacted with Russavia.

   I'm not appealing the ban as it's been made quite clear that on-Wiki seeds of good faith which do not involve my contributing to articles or discussion of content thereof covered by my ban and which do not involve directly interacting with or criticising my alleged editoral antagonists are discouraged.

   Please let me know if it would have violated my ban to make the communication cited in private to ArbCom. I have not communicated privately because that can be (and I believe is guaranteed to be, should any whiff of it emerge) accused of being a cladestine act with ulterior self-serving motives on my part. I wish to plant seeds of good faith where possible while not violating my ban. Editing Tomato is not that. Please describe to me what are acceptable actions in that light and I will gladly commit to those. Thank you.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  15:47, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Had you not taken the route of damning with faint praise ("As Russavia recognizes their egregious behavior ", which is not something that I would consider the optimal way to reach reconciliation) or just had the discussion above, I wouldn't have felt it necessary to do anything but leave a reminder asking you to please play by the rules imposed. And that, while good faith outreach is appreciated, it may be a bit premature, so please respect it for the time being. henrik•talk 16:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Please do not take my comment there as backhanded criticism. It was absolutely not meant as "damning," I believe there's a genuine realization a major line was crossed—and that such recognition represents major progress which deserves appropriate recognition. I can't represent progress without noting where we started from, and I wouldn't be supporting relaxation of the ban unless I felt there was real and substantial progress. That is, why would I be "damning" someone at the same time I'm supporting a major easing of their topic ban. THAT MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!

   I regret that you took this as me gutter sniping. Consider that "damning" is your personal prejudice convicting me of what you interpreted as the intent of my response as opposed to taking what my communication stated and intended at face value.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  17:59, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Given the conversation above with Sandstein, I believe you could reasonably have predicted this result, even if your intent was conciliatory. Posting a message which had room for misinterpretation did not improve matters.

Look, I hope this is just a small bumb in the road, to be forgotten before long. Just play by the rules, and you can hopefully get the topic ban repealed before long too. henrik•talk 21:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

And no, I don't believe that a single private note to arbcom or an admin acting as an WP:AE-patroller; saying something in the style of that you've previously had disagreements with the user, were forbidden from interacting or commenting directly, but nevertheless supported a loosening of restriction would have been a violation of the restriction. henrik•talk 21:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I'll consider updating my statement (and perhaps remove specific reference to a certain editor), hopefully that will not be taken as re-violating my ban. You do realize the system is broken in that you are telling me that good faith has to go underground.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  04:31, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, given the previous troubles, the irony is not lost upon me. But don't make a habit out of emailing people about that editor, I meant the part about a single message. Or better yet, remove the pages he frequents from your watchlist, forget about him and enjoy the calm and quiet of working in some non-controversial area. Think of it as a vacation. henrik•talk 09:00, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

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ArbCom case amendment request

Thank you for your help

You have earned this 1956 Hungarian Revolution Barnstar! (I will understand if you are unable to comment further...) István (talk) 05:30, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Merely temporary. :-) Nagyon köszönöm!  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  05:47, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

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