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Grammar

I corrected usages of commas, definite articles, and indefinite articles in sentences, and tried to clarify some of the more poorly written areas. — Rickyrab | Talk 18:20, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Rickyrab, for the meticulous proof-reading. --ilgiz (talk) 22:36, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Latynina's claims

Yulia Latynina recently spoke with criticism of Anderson's article at Echo Moskvy:

Not sure what article does this info fit the best -- GQ, Russian apartmtnt bombings, or the Theories, but it's certainly interesting. Latynina is not a person who thinks favourably about the Kremlin or Putin, rather than that, she counted among their harshest opponents.

ellol (talk) 09:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I think Latynina belongs under analysts. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:17, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Berezovski's Conspiracy Theory

It should be mentioned that all of the people claiming that the Russian Government was involved in the bombings, (instead of being too inept to prevent them as a result of Yeltsin's "Democratic Reforms") all have ties to Boris Berezovski, who claimed that he wants to topple Putin via a revolution.

It should also be mentioned that Berezovski has a history of trying to frame Putin for everything under the Sun, including Basaev asking Putin invade Dagestan, but stop at the Terek River, before reaching Chechnya. I have discussed why that is ridiculous here, http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Invasion_of_Dagestan_(1999)#Berezovki.27s_Conspiracy_Theory.2C_aka_why_we_all_should_learn_Georgraphy, and interested users can find the link. Additionally, Berezovski tried to blame Putin, (not Kadyrov) for the assasination of Anna Politkovskaya. Of course people like Berezovski don't need proof. http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Invasion_of_Dagestan_(1999)#Berezovki.27s_Conspiracy_Theory.2C_aka_why_we_all_should_learn_Georgraphy. And of course who can forget the Berezovski clique blaming Russia for daring to defend herself. Those statements were so dead wrong, that even Rupert Murdoch withdrew his statements.

Why the frame up? Well here's an article: http://www.siberianlight.net/berezovsky-says-he-wants-to-overthrow-putin-by-force/. Berezovsky says he wants to overthrow Putin – by force. It'd be funny if it wasn't true. Of course the rabble rousers will yell "that's a Russian Newspaper!" How's the Guardian for you? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/13/topstories3.russia I am plotting a new Russian revolution. London exile Berezovsky says force necessary to bring down President Putin. Quoting the article: "We need to use force to change this regime," he said. "It isn't possible to change this regime through democratic means. There can be no change without force, pressure." Asked if he was effectively fomenting a revolution, he said: "You are absolutely correct."

Wouldn't a person plotting to remove Putin from power, or Medvedev from power who came out of Putin's United Russia, blame Putin for everything under the Sun? Why are certain editors using Misplaced Pages to promote conspiracy theories? BTW, Misplaced Pages has something about Conspiracy Theories. Something about "not making conspiracies look more credible than they already are. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 08:51, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Remember of the text just a single section above; that gal Yulia Latynina said: "Now I'll briefly say that I believe that the version that the explosions were done by FSB is not just absurd. I think that this version was devised for some purpose by Boris Abramovich Berezovsky after he was refused of the power." ellol (talk) 10:24, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Я стала читать эту статью и немножко обалдела. Например, я прочла в этой статье, что чеченцы не взрывали дома, потому что им это не выгодно. С таким же успехом можно сказать, что Кремль, видимо, не имеет никакого отношения к запрещению статьи г-на Андерсена, потому что это же ему не выгодно. Не говоря уж о том, что это точно не Кремль отравил Литвиненко, ему же это не выгодно. Или, например, я прочла в статье г-на Андерсена, что из членов парламентской комиссии, которые занимались расследованием взрывов в Москве, двое погибли. I love how she flips the terms, and argues for the other side. That is sexy. In terms of argumentation.

Basically (for the non-Russian speaking crowd), she takes the argument made by Berezovsky and Co. that "Basaev and Co. aren't going to blow up the buildings, because it's bad PR" and turns it around saying "Kremlin won't be poisoning Litvinenko, as it is bad PR". And according to that logic, neither US, nor USSR, would be toppling governments, as it is also bad PR. Nor was Vietnam invaded, cause that is really bad PR. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 21:16, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I can also flip the argument, and claim that "Berezovsky and Co. would blame the Kremlin for the bombings, because it is great PR for them". Of course on this basis, the argument fails. But adding the fact that Berezovsky wants to overthrow Putin via a revolution, (as if Russia didn't have enough blood spilled already,) suddenly the argument, supplemented by actual evidence, starts to make sense. What Latuynina pointed out, is that Berezovsky's argument has no evidence, except hearsay. To quote one of the many lawyers: "Objection. Hearsay is not evidence." And to summarize Misplaced Pages: "a conspiracy theory should not be treated as anything, except a conspiracy theory, and Misplaced Pages should not be used to give it credibility".

An interesting tactic I noticed here, is that some users, trying in vain to make Berezovsky's argument for him, claim that the people who call conspiracy theory, a conspiracy theory, are really KGB agents, and if KGB agents are suppressing it, clearly it must be right. The problem with that tactic, is that there is no proof showing that Wikipedians who call a conspiracy theory - by its name, a conspiracy theory, are KGB agents. The color blue contains shades of blue. Does saying this make me a secret service agent? Then why does calling a conspiracy theory, what it is, make others KGB agents?

(Warning: Sarcasm Ahead) Reading certain commentaries, if true, would make me tremble, because according to these commentaries, half of the people editing Russia-related articles are KGB agents, and the other half are CIA agents; cause you know, bin Laden is caught, Umarov is toast, and KGB with the CIA have nothing to do, but edit Misplaced Pages all day.

Seriously, I know conspiracy theories are exciting, I get it, but come on, fellow Wikipedians, you know who you are, enough with the dirty tactics; start living up to your name. If you got a great argument, make it. If not, then don't spent your time crafting up more and more conspiracy theories, and using dirty tactics to claim that these theories are not conspiracy theories. So far it's only been a few people, and I hope the dirty tactics trend doesn't continue. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 00:49, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Criticism of the Sources, aka me pointing out where some people flat out lie

http://www.hudson.org/files/publications/SatterHouseTestimony2007.pdf

1. Putin was never head of the secret service. He was (is?) a Col. of the KGB. That's not the same as head of the KGB.

2. Criminal Division of property was actually subject to re-examination.

3. The Second Chechen War didn't achieve popularity overnight.

4. Article states that bribes grew ten times in value; article doesn't mention the inflation, nor that the amount of bribes lessened, nor that the Russian standard of living, at the very least doubled under Putin.

5. Article confuses WWII with Stalin's Purges, which were pre-WWII. This is why historians study those thingies called dates.

6. Attack against Estonia was done primarily by Russian hackers and their allies. The article fails to mention that the attack came in response to Estonia's "Hero of USSR Removal Program".

7. Russia offered to cooperate with Litvinenko's murder, if the trial was to take place in Russia. Article doesn't mention this, instead it portrays Russia as "refusing to cooperate". HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 21:48, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

This particular source is used only once in the article. What exactly do you propose to do? Alæxis_¿question? 09:57, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Find an NPOV replacement that actually gets its facts right. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 10:32, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Re:4. Russian per capita GDP, which is what is usually taken as a standard of living grew by about 60% under Putin (not "at the very least doubled" which would be 100%+). This implies a growth rate of about 4.5-4.7% per year. This is actually nothing to sneeze at - I think basically you're failing to realize how big a doubling of living standard actually is (maybe, just maybe, if you can trust the official data, China's the only country that has ever managed to pull off a doubling within a decade - the 90's). But it doesn't help to be sloppy, with this point, or the others.radek (talk) 10:17, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually whether we look at GDP per capita at constant prices (www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/GDP-Per-Capita.aspx?Symbol=RUB) or GDP per capita by PPP we see about a twofold increase. The growth was greater than 4.5-4.7%, besides the population became less. Alæxis_¿question? 11:16, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

It probably depends on which set of figures you look at. I was using Penn World Tables which is the dataset most relied on academically. Growth of GDP per capita already embodies changes to population (% change in GDP per capita = % change in total GDP - % change in population). I think the doubling would be an upper bound estimate.radek (talk) 23:07, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

What's probably going on here is the difference in PPP adjustment - basically during Putin's time, in addition to other factors, Russia also benefited from a substantial improvement in its terms of trade, specifically with the price of oil. So yes, it does seem that in PPP adjusted terms, it grew at close to 100%.radek (talk) 23:11, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Guys, the population decreased by 3-4 million, out of roughly 141-145 million. Taking that decrease, 4/141 is a minuscule factor, that's roughly 3 percent. When the Standard of Living doubles, you are looking at a 100 percent increase. Using the table that Radek suggested, the PPP, from 1999 to 2007, increased from 5.32 to 15.71. The real GDP increased at an astonishing rate, averaging over 7 percent. The distribution evened out. Irrespective of the three percent (at most) population change, the GDP still increased by over 100%. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 10:30, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Galkin's Testimony

Considering that Galkin's Testimony was extracted under torture, why are we using it? I mean heck, if someone's beating me up 24/7 and gives me a text to read to stop the beatings, I'll read the text. So would anyone else. Even James Bond, (in the movie with the North Korean thingy in the air) broke under torture. (M admitted that he was "leaking intel".) No one can withstand torture, especially if it's done over a long period of time. You can force your brain to forget the information, so torture confessions often don't help Recon, but in terms of forcing a person to read a testimony, that's pre-written, it's not complicated at all. Which other Misplaced Pages Articles sink to the level of using "testimony" obtained under torture? HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 03:01, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

What?! It's absolutely inadmissible in the world practice. Quoting his evidence here, we effectively support torture. I strongly vote for removal of his evidence. ellol (talk) 12:50, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Three Worlds Gone Mad, Robert Young Pelton. Good. The piece from that book about the captive officer's testimony must be translated into Russian. What the barbarism. ellol (talk) 12:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

From Galkin's interview to Novaya Gazeta:

After I got to ours, I was immediately put into hospital. Half a year was spent for medical treatment. I described what happened with me to my commanders. After the hospital, when I learned writing anew (yes, it's exactly so, I had to learn walking, had to learn writing, and my friend had to learn talking -- he stuttered too much), I reported everything in a short document.

...

It's a fate that we stayed alive. When I passed a medical investigation, got an x-ray, doctors revealed that four ribs are broken. During the captivity they healed a bit with displacement of a rib fracture inside a lung. The jaw was broken three times, head traumatized, arms shot through... With my health condition I couldn't continue serving in the Armed Forced. Got dismissed to reserve in Summber 2002 after a rehabilitation course. And psychologically... I would just like to forget it all. And as such things can't be forgotten, I try to imagine it happened not with me.

ellol (talk) 13:22, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

HistoricWarrior007, I only want to add to your comment, that as Galkin is alive today, using the evidence obtained from him under torture in this article may lead to further traumatizing the man. (Imagine, he opens English wikipedia with this article, and sees the "evidence" he was tortured to say. That's horrific.) ellol (talk) 16:49, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Not to mention that the HRW, which according to Misplaced Pages is a valid source, states that evidence extracted under torture cannot be used. Evidence extracted under torture is inadmissible in civilized countries. We must defend Misplaced Pages from becoming as accepting of evidence, as the North Korean Courts! Where is Radio Free Europe's outrage on this? I cannot believe that they missed it, only because the testimony extracted was anti-Russian. If that's true, that would be an atrocious thing to do! HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 22:33, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I feel very uncomfortable removing well-referenced relevant information that is widely used by proponents of a point of view. On the other hand the text labeled words extracted under torture as "volunteer interview" and only then added that after escaping from his prison Galkin changed his "confession" saying that he was tortured. IMHO we should restore the section changing a few words in the first paragraph so to emphasize that this "confession" was extracted under torture and has very little reliability. We might want to add a few details of how exactly he was tortured (in the notes) so the reader would get an idea Alex Bakharev (talk) 23:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

So you are ok with testimony extracted under torture if it is well-referenced? Doesn't torture contradict being well-referenced, as, when you are under torture you will confess to anything? In the Salem Witch Trials, Mary confessed that John was pure evil, and that testimony was very well referenced. It was allowed to convict John, who later turned out to be innocent. I don't see why we should follow that mistaken precedent, why we should quote others, when they said something against their will. What is the difference between someone, say Galkin, confessing under torture, or someone simply misquoting Galkin? Both are false, and a waste of the reader's time. Yet you propose allowing one, but not the other. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:07, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I think it's pretty much clear, that Chechens forced him to say that his interview was "volunteered". But it's likely that he had at that moment broken ribs or arms shot through -- what the interviewer did not care to check. During the interview his Chechen captors were present (you can see that from Pelton's interview), so he had to say what pleased them.

It's not a merely Misplaced Pages rules issue. But if we leave the "evidence", we collectively are to held responsibility for extending the mental sufferings of the living person who suffered physically and mentally much worse than you or I can ever imagine.

I emphasize that Galkin is not an acting officer now. He retired from the Armed forces in 2002 -- that means, he is a civilian. I think it's the general respect of mercy that we shouldn't prevent that person from living a normal life now. The mention of his "evidence" in a political article may actually hurt the living person -- himself. Imagine he opens this article and sees that "evidence" -- what would he think, that people in the world support the torture applied to him?

But we are not the enemies of civilians who did not committ any crime! ellol (talk) 14:24, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I see no point in removing the references about the rendition. The rules only require to verify the facts of publishing. So referring to the rendition directly is not allowed, but including references to the publications about the rendition and presenting their summaries is OK. The WP:NPOV policy mandates to stay away from monopolizing the truth. Only published statements and contradictions between them matter. As for the biographic limits, I did not see that Galkin's personality was denigrated, taking into account the possibility of tortures. Whether the Misplaced Pages editors are extending the mental suffering of Galkin or of the relatives of the bombings' victims who might feel betrayed by the state secret service has little to do with libel. --ilgiz (talk) 15:06, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Publishing tortured testimony is by its very definition unverifiable. How can you even be talking about truth and NPOV, if it's crystal clear that the testimony was obtained under torture? Any testimony obtained under torture isn't going to be NPOV, and violated WP:NPOV. It's also not the truth, it's complete bullshit. And about Galkin being betrayed by the state secret service, that's your own original research, please see WP:OR. Agents get captured and tortured, that's part of the job. This has nothing to do with NPOV, as how can you be NPOV, if you are told what to say at gunpoint? "Read this document, or we shoot your kid, but say it's NPOV, k?" HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 23:12, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Ilgiz, do you think that testimonies obtained with the use of torture are valid? ellol (talk) 18:29, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion on this. The editors' beliefs or "common sense" should be irrelevant in representing the summaries of references. --ilgiz (talk) 18:46, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe that the use of torture to obtain evidence is the most disguisting behaviour, and using the data obtained with torture in a Misplaced Pages article really stinks. That's my opinion, you can have yours. ellol (talk) 18:49, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I have a very strong and firm belief that common sense should not be irrelevant. And here, common sense, dictates, that a testimony obtained under torture isn't NPOV. Editors must strive for NPOV. Thus, we cannot use testimony obtained under torture, irrespective if it's pro-Berezovski or pro-Tooth Fairy. How can one speak from a neutral point of view, if he or she is being tortured? And this is the first time I see Common Sense challenged on Misplaced Pages. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 23:12, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

The WP:VERIFY policy talks about verifying the fact that the reference was published. Verifying the facts presented in the publication and tossing publications deemed untrue is beyond Misplaced Pages's policies. --ilgiz (talk) 00:09, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

From the policy: The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.

Misplaced Pages:Verifiability is one of Misplaced Pages's core content policies, along with Misplaced Pages:No original research and Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Misplaced Pages articles. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore familiarize themselves with all three.

Is testimony extracted under torture NPOV? No. Is testimony extracted under torture reliable? No. You must have all three, not just one. Here you only have verifiability, and the other elements for inclusion are simply not met. Quoting from Misplaced Pages's policies: "they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another". And yet here you are doing exactly that. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 04:10, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

The NPOV policy refers to the relationship between publications and their editorial summaries. Your understanding seems to imply that NPOV is focused on dissonances between the facts and their interpretation in the publications. As for the reliability criteria, again, they are about the authors of the publications not the facts or persons covered by the publications. --ilgiz (talk) 06:29, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Here is WP:NPOV - Neutral point of view (NPOV) is a fundamental Wikimedia principle and a cornerstone of Misplaced Pages. All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles and all editors. Do you honestly believe that a view extracted under torture is significant in any way, shape or form? "Neutral point of view" is one of Misplaced Pages's three core content policies, along with "Verifiability" and "No original research." Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Misplaced Pages articles. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore familiarize themselves with all three. The principles upon which these policies are based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Ilgiz, do you honestly believe that "evidence" extracted under torture, can ever be considered to have NPOV quality? It's right there in the definition. You need NPOV and Verifiability. Verifiability you have, NPOV you do not have. Anything extracted under torture cannot ever be NPOV type or NPOV quality. You need both. You cannot just pick and choose what you like. As per WP:NPOV this is non-negotiable and expected of all articles and all editors. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 08:26, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

HistoricWarrior007, I wonder what the next discussion will we have, after discussing whether torture is a proper means to get information. Justification of pedophilia, or morality of cannibalism? I always thought that such questions are just too much neanderthalean. It's really a wonder for me that there are people like Ilgiz, eager to justify things like torture.

I really wonder, in fact. Usually in criminal codes of various countries there is no law prohibiting cannibalism -- there's just no need of it. Is then cannibalism an acceptable sort of behaviour for Ilgiz?

IMHO, the whole topic is just that much nauseating and humiliates our human nature as discussing cannibalism does. Like hell, we are the people of certain culture, that stands against torture, regardless of who is the victim. We are, like, people, not a bunch of animals. Don't you think so? ellol (talk) 11:33, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with that entirely. Both, governmental rules and rules of society must be respected, but not worshiped. Often we forget that rules are created by humans and they can change. If we never broke the law, there would still be De Facto segregation in the South, India would be in British hands, etc. As Lincoln said, "A House Divided cannot stand". When societal rules clash with governmental rules, one or the other must go, and often society is correct. But certain people worship rules of government, and ignore societal rules, and are later surprised when society punishes them for it. At least it provides good, societal entertainment for historians. But I think that a lot of people don't get this concept, so I won't apply it to anyone here. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 20:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Quite a nice article by the telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/3665772/All-roads-lead-back-to-Berezovsky.html

It's about Litvinenko's murder, but it also shows who is really behind the conspiracy theory claim, due to Putin's "betrayal" of his "henchmen". How dare did Putin not follow the Davos Pact. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 00:27, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Why Can't we call a Conspiracy Theory, a Conspiracy Theory?

This article does it: http://en.wikipedia.org/9/11_conspiracy_theories

Why exactly are we trying to insist that calling a conspiracy theory, a conspiracy theory, against NPOV? http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Russian_apartment_bombings&action=historysubmit&diff=329775558&oldid=329774888 Misplaced Pages has very clear rules, that we cannot make conspiracy theories appear more than they are. Yet now I am branded a POV warrior, for calling a conspiracy theory, a conspiracy theory.

What are the facts? There are none, it's all hearsay, perpetrated by a single, anti-Russian Government group.

On the other hand you have Khattab, who used a similar Modus Operandi to bin Laden, stating that he did it. Then realizing that nobody liked his terror tactics in Dagestan to begin with, and that this incident isolated Khattab's terror group completely, he suddenly starts denying evidence. Instead a person from a non-existent "Dagestan Liberation Army" calls, and uses the exact same speech that Khattab used. Here, compare:

"The mujahideen of Dagestan are going to carry out reprisals in various places across Russia."

"Our response to the bombings of civilians in the villages in Chechnya and Dagestan."

Well he changed reprisals to response, and added Chechnya, a funny act by the "Dagestan Liberation Army", but otherwise the texts are identical.

Here is another sample, (from this very article):

"From now on, we will not only fight against Russian fighter jets and tanks. From now on, they will get our bombs everywhere. Let Russia await our explosions blasting through their cities. I swear we will do it."

And the mysterious caller "said that the explosions in Buynaksk and Moscow were carried out by his organization. According to him, the attacks were a retaliation to the deaths of Muslim women and children during Russian air raids in Dagestan. "We will answer death with death," the caller said".

But nobody heard of his "organization" before or after the blasts.

Khattab did it. He threatened to do it, he carried it out, and the Russian Government was blamed, because they were sloppy, disorganized, and careless.

And all the people who are accusing the Russian Government are those who either want to overthrow it by use of force, or are directly tied to those who want to overthrow by the use of force. If it walks like a conspiracy theory, and it quacks like a conspiracy theory, it's a ... HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:42, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policies recommend to expose existing points of view, not to find a "true" one. Contradictions in real life events are primary sources and their interpretations are secondary sources. Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source that only classifies primary and secondary sources and does not synthesize hypotheses. As for naming (classifying) the theory of government involvement, I do not understand why it should be given any name, or a name that has a dual meaning. --ilgiz (talk) 07:49, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

'Conspiracy theory' is clearly a POV term and therefore not appropriate in an article that attempts to be non-biased. Malick78 (talk) 12:49, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

You guys want to change this article's name too? http://en.wikipedia.org/9/11_conspiracy_theories According to both of your arguments, it should clearly be changed. Have I your permission to present your arguments to that article? After all, they should be NPOV and apply to all articles, right? HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:00, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

On the one hand we have Berezovski, Satter and Associates. On the other we have Academics, Professors, and the people who actually saw proof, as well as threats and a confession by the terrorist leader who did the damn thing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that promoting both on an equal footing is not NPOV.

And since we all love NPOV, how about reading associated policies with NPOV: http://en.wikipedia.org/NPOV#Undue_weight

Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: In general, articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more widely held views; generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. For example, the article on the Earth does not mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, the view of a distinct minority. Satter's testimony was REJECTED by the US Congress. Nevertheless it is cited here 17 times! Tony Blair, UK Prime Minister at the time, endorses Putin's testimony of the bombs. Instead we get John Sweeney's bashing of Putin. Geez, I wonder, who is more important, the Prime Minister, or a "reporter". Goldfarb and Litvinenko's book is cited nine times, more than the opinions of prosecutors handing the cases. And of course the Jamestown Foundation is present in any article dutifully bashing Russia. Trepashkin, the "Independent Investigator" so lauded, is only cited four times. But in one string of citations, the editors, only for NPOV purposes, managed to cite Satter twice. Is this NPOV? HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:28, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that we shouldn't use such headings as 'Conspiracy Theory of Russian government involvement'. 'Theory of Russian government involvement' is a nice and neutral name; we can trust the reader to examine the section and sources calling it conspiracy theory and otherwise and decide what was it by him(her)self. Alæxis_¿question? 09:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

But we are discussing whether to present a fact or not. We aren't deciding on NPOV. You are welcome to match up these events' chronology with the events of 9/11. They are identical. First you have a Saudi group, bin Laden/ibn Khattab, threaten. Than you have said person claim responsibility, after the event took place. Only after said events took place, does the chronology begin to differ, insofar as Khattab retracted his statement, because the Taliban sided with bin Laden's actions, and Basaev did not side with Khattab's actions. After that, the chronology once again becomes the same, insofar as groups trying to destroy the US/Russian Governments by force, go ahead and say that instead of gross negligence, the governments orchestrated it. Watching someone fall of a cliff because your couldn't get a decent rope, and pushing that someone off the cliff are two different things. I mean the fact that Russia lost the First Chechen War isn't NPOV towards Russia. But it is a fact that must be presented. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:06, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

IMHO the Conspiracy Theory is just OK. More than 10 years have passed. The time is ripe to stop teasing readers with "may be"'s and to be more encyclopaedic. There are no proofs of the theory that would stand in a court, but there's the rich criticism of it. It's the conspiracy theory. ellol (talk) 16:40, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Re: Historic - Tony Blair and Congress wanted to suck up to the Russians... that's why they didn't make waves. Sure, let's quote things in proportion, but let's also be sceptical of the nefarious Russian government (murdering Litvinenko, probably Politkovskaya, attempting in the first hours to cover up the Kursk...) and all those who want contracts for its oil. 'Theories' is perfectly adequate, no need for 'conspiracy' before it. Malick78 (talk) 16:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Potentially there's a choice of 3 names - 'Conspiracy Theory of Russian government involvement', 'Theory of Russian government involvement', 'Russian government involvement'. The middle one is also the best in terms of NPOV imho (even though I myself think it's a conspiracy theory indeed). Alæxis_¿question? 20:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Alaexis, I already made the point, that we are deciding whether to include a fact or not, we aren't deciding on NPOV, see above. Malick, in terms of who killed Litvenenko, there is proof. In terms of Kursk submarine, there is proof. In terms of Politkovskaya, there isn't proof, which is why you used the word "probably". In terms of this article, there isn't a centilla of proof. Satter's reported was rejected by the US Congress, insofar as they didn't act on any of his suggestions. The rest of the gang are all tied to Berezovsky, and all we have is threats to make the movie, (either make it or shut up, you had ten years,) and hearsay. Proof is what matters. Thus in the case of Livenenko, it would "theory of Russian Gov't involvement" as there is proof, i.e. Polonium leaves a trail. BTW, Litvenenko was a double agent, selling FSB info, so there was motive as well, I mean which agency wouldn't kill a traitor? In the case of this article, you have no proof, no motive, (i.e. the Second Chechen War was happening, whether these events took place or not,) and all you have is hearsay, by a linked group of people, all of whom want to bring down the Russian Government by force. Hence in this case, it would be "conspiracy theory of Russian Gov't. involvement". Theory implies that you have at least a centilla of proof. As for British wanting to suck up to Russians, sorry but I don't buy that argument, based on hearsay alone. This article's lack of evidence towards Russian Gov't involvement is the classic example of a conspiracy theory. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:06, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Malick, I believe we should decide based on the evidence we have. The factual side is the same, regardless of the attitude taken by the British, or the Russian authorities. That's what we should think of the first. ellol (talk) 09:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

• "Conspiracy theory is a term that originally was a neutral descriptor for any conspiracy claim. However, it has come almost exclusively to refer to any fringe theory which explains a historical or current event as the result of a secret plot by conspirators of almost superhuman power and cunning." - from the WP page conspiracy theory. So who are the superhumans required for this to be a 'conspiracy'? ;) Malick78 (talk) 14:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The Russian FSB is deemed by theory authors to be able to do such a thing without any information leaks, and held it in perfect secrecy for now a decade. Remember Abraham Lincoln: "You may deceive all the people part of the time, and part of the people all the time, but not all the people all the time." The authors pretend that FSB managed to do exactly the latter. ellol (talk) 15:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I always found it fascinating that when applying WP policies, users most often miss the part that contradicts their claim: "Conspiracy theories are viewed with skepticism and often ridiculed because they are seldom supported by any conclusive evidence and contrast with institutional analysis, which focuses on people's collective behavior in publicly known institutions, as recorded in scholarly material and mainstream media reports, to explain historical or current events, rather than speculate on the motives and actions of secretive coalitions of individuals."

Here, you only have hearsay. The differences between a theory and a conspiracy theory are many, but a major one is a lack of evidence. Here, all we have is hearsay, which isn't evidence. Never has been. Never will be. I can say that Ellol is a hockey superstar, that Ovechkin's twin brother reincarnated into Ellol. I can also have several sources say the same thing. That is hearsay. It's not evidence. All you have is either statements of notorious criminals, or statements of people belonging to Berezovsky's faction, that wants to overthrow Russia's Government by force, or Satter, whose report was rejected by the US Congress. However it is all speculation and hearsay.

The other theory offers clear evidence. Khattab threatens Russia that if the Wahhabists get bombed, bombs will go off in Russia. Wahhabists get bombed. Bombs go off in Russia. After the blasts, Khattab takes responsibility for the blasts. After failing to gain support, Khattab suddenly says that he didn't do it, and an unheard of group, before or since, suddenly claims responsibility using Khattab's language, almost verbatum. All of these are facts. Nothing there is made up, or hearsay. Geez, based on these facts, I wonder, who did it... HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 21:54, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Putley

Here is the previously inserted quote by Jeremy Putley:

"Jeremy Putley, who had written an article in October 2002 for "The Spectator" supporting the view that the Russian FSB was responsible for the bombing campaign (http://www.spectator.co.uk/spectator/thisweek/10496/getting-away-with-murder.thtml) reviewed the book "Darkness at Dawn" for the August 20, 2003 issue of "Prospect", also expressing support for that view."

My problem was not that the quote was inserted, but with how it was inserted. Someone placed it under scholars but Putley is just a reviewer, not a scholar. Additionally it was placed as criticizing the conspiracy theory, whereas in reality it supports the conspiracy theory. Ergo I removed it, because I don't believe that they article should become a battlefront of he said/she said crap. If Putley's notable enough to make such a review, he should be properly included. If not, then he should not be included. And his notability to make such a statement has yet to be established. A blogger, parroting what larussophobe says, is not notable. http://en.wordpress.com/tag/jeremy-putley/ HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:12, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Jeremy Putley replies: certainly I am not famous but I did carry out detailed research; I am not less scholarly than Kirill Pankratov; I publish using my real name; and I do not parrot what La Russophobe says if you care to read it attentively. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.225.134 (talk) 15:49, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

May I see this detailed research, or is this part of Berezovsky's video that's still yet to come out? And I provided the link where you are parroting what larussophobe says. From the link: larussophobe wrote 10 months ago: Murder in the Time of Putin by Jeremy Putley Original to La Russophobe Eduard and Larisa Baburov pay... Furthermore, publishing using your real name does not make you notable. Because saying "I am not less scholarly then Kirill Pankratov" doesn't actually prove anything. I can say that I've been to the moon. Doesn't mean I have. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 02:10, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

About the Caucasian accent

Can anyone please source it, is it Caucasian race or Peoples of the Caucasus as the context doesn't provide this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arenlor (talk • contribs) 07:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Testing the sugar

There are now references to sacks with "sugar" in Ryazan being tested somewhere outsite the city. When exactly that was done? According to book by Rdward Lucas, FSB indeed claimed about the test, but it was done much later, not the day when sucks were found.Biophys (talk) 03:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

POV Tag Discussion

The recent edits by Biophys do not meet NPOV criteria. Under the guise of "a more detailed abstract", Biophys writes: " They were quickly blamed by the Russian government on Chechen separatists and together with the Islamist invasion of Daghestan were used as a pretext for the military invasion of the breakaway Chechen Republic, which started on September 30 and escalated the Second Chechen War."

"Quickly blamed by the Russian Government", does that sound NPOV to anyone? Additionally, factual evidence showed that everyone in government was in favor of the Second Chechen War, so it would not make sense to bomb your own popular to support a war that already had widespread support.

Biophy continues:

"The (then) Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin praised the vigilance of the Ryazanians and ordered air attacks on Grozny. The local police caught two Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) agents who planted the bomb in Ryazan shortly afterwards. "

However he has yet to cite an NPOV that those were FSB agents. I don't really see what air attacks on Grozny have to do with anything, except a cheap shot against Russia that is superbly unencyclopedic.

"the secessionist Chechen authorities, claimed that the 1999 bombings were a false flag attack coordinated by the FSB in order to win public support for a new full-scale war in Chechnya, which boosted Prime Minister and former FSB Director Vladimir Putin's popularity, brought the pro-war Unity Party to the State Duma and him to the presidency within a few months Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page)." was not what the source says, so I checked it. "Как сообщила в 16-часовом выпуске новостей телекомпания НТВ, при экспертизе в подозрительных мешках взрывчатых веществ не обнаружено." - As the 1600 News Block on NTV announced, when the suspicious looking sacks were checked, no explosives were detected. That's exactly what the source says, and it should not have been removed. Reworded, maybe, removed, definitely not.

And I think the Ryazan explanation and expansion should go into the Ryazan column. Just my two cents. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 20:29, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• cite an NPOV that those were FSB agents According to the April 29, 2003 article by Leonid Berres, Izvestia, residents of an apartment building in Ryazan found sacks with hexagen. Following this, FSB director Patrushev stated that there were training exercises in the city. --ilgiz (talk) 21:25, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Good try Ilgiz, but I asked to have this cited, it's why you don't respond to me out of context: The local police caught two Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) agents who planted the bomb in Ryazan shortly afterwards. So I am asking to cite, an NPOV source, if the people who placed the bomb were FSB agents. According to the source: Как удалось выяснить корреспонденту "Известий", заказчики этого преступления - прежде всего Шамиль Басаев и два араба, инструкторы диверсионных лагерей в Сержень-Юрте и Урус-Мартане Хаттаб и Абу Умар, убитые в прошлом году. . In other words, Izvestia states that the bomb was ordered by Khattab and Basaev. So the FSB agents placing it, had to be turncoats, since neither Khattab, nor Basaev work for the FSB; in fact they work against the FSB. The newspaper states that according to Berezovksy, which the newspaper admits is not a credible source: озвученную опальным предпринимателем Борисом Березовским, yeah that word in Russian, the bolded one, not a good description to have of your persona. So yeah, according to Berezovsky, who wants to overthrow the FSB, the FSB placed the bombs. And that's what the paper says. If an NPOV paper says it's POV quote, guess what - it's a POV quote. Good article though, I agree with it. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 23:10, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
    • The first quote from the Izvestia article is about Procurator office's investigation (opinion) on the Moscow bombings. The quote I showed did not attribute the Ryazan sack discovery and Patrushev's statement to Berezovsky. You seem to imply that Patrushev did not make the statement. Besides, I am not sure what the word "disgraced" has anything to do with the opinion of the "disgraced" person. It was never disputed that the sacks were found, that the search for perpetrators was halted after few people were found, released and that Patrushev declared the events an exercise. --ilgiz (talk)
      • Ilgiz, you are very welcome to fix anything you want. You know this subject well.Biophys (talk) 02:49, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
        • Biophys, are you going to respond the POV tag? It came to the article as a result of your edits. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:49, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
      • No, I am saying that Russian FSB forces did not blow up their own civilians, and the only ones who say otherwise, are the disgraced Berezovki clique, as the article that you cited points out. When claiming otherwise, show me the quotes from the article, so I can see your evidence, as I am a huge fan of evidence, over mere claims. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 07:49, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
        • Misplaced Pages editors do not carry the burden of verifying facts (primary sources) described by the publications (secondary sources). Only the facts that the references were published need to be verified. Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source. --ilgiz (talk) 15:48, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
          • Ilgiz, when you make an edit in Misplaced Pages, you actually have to cite the information where that came from. And is the source is a conspiracy theories, Berezovsky, the source has to either be identified as a conspiracy theorist, or removed. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 20:10, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Appeal

The story of Russian apartment bombings with the time passing becomes a matter of history. And as such, it can't depend on mere speculations. If you can reference solid evidence in favour of the conspiracy theory, you are more than welcome to do that. If you can't, do not harm this article with any more speculation of opposition politicians that's not based on any publicly available evidence. ellol (talk) 13:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages articles would not have much value without presenting references to opinions and works. --ilgiz (talk) 15:44, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Right, can you have to cite them. And if they are conspiracy theorists, they must be identified as such. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 20:12, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Bombing by FSB agents is a majority view

I believe that comment by ellol has some merit as a reminder to follow WP:RS. So, let's follow it and use reliable secondary sources (that is books by experts), although nothing prevents from using other sources. According to majority of such books, the bombing was indeed committed by the FSB. This comes at no surprise because FSB was so clumsy: the agents were caught red-handed while planing the bomb and so on. So, we have the following books by experts on the Russian affairs that support bombing by the FSB version:

1. Two books by an FSB insider Alexander Litvinenko who said "we did it".
2. A book by David Satter who also reported this to US Congress
3. A book by Edward Lucas (journalist)
4. Book "Age of Assassins" by historians Felshtinsky and Pribylovsky
5. Several documentary movies by Andrei Nekrasov
6. There are some allegedly fictional books with only names replaced, such as "Lesser Evil" by Dubov who describes Berezovsky, Putin and others, but hints that the actual mastermind behind the bombings was Philipp Bobkov

Books that provide no definitive conclusion, but consider such scenario highly probable:

1. The Security Organs of the Russian Federation. A Brief History 1991-2004 by Jonathan Littell, Psan Publishing House 2006.
2. Book by Alex Goldfarb

Books claiming that bombings definitely were not committed by the FSB:

1. A book by Sakva?

Everyone is welcome to continue these lists of books by experts to see which list will be longer. Thank you.Biophys (talk) 04:15, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

It makes only a very little interest, who said this versus who said that. Mere speculations do not prove the conspiracy theory. Most of the people you cited as experts are not internationally recognized in such quality.

Surely, you are welcome to provide strong evidence, based on facts, which would prove the theory. But mere speculations of likely biased claimants (such as Edward Lukas aka the New Cold War guy) only deteriorate the article quality. ellol (talk) 10:53, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

No, I am not suppose to provide any evidence of any theories. I only should provide sources, and preferably the best available secondary sources. Per WP:RS such sources are books written by experts. If you have nothing to add to this list of books by experts, it means I was right about the majority view per wikipedia policies.Biophys (talk) 03:59, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

If you are providing the best available secondary sources, it should be no trouble for you to cite here the list of facts, mentioned in the secondary sources, which unambiguously prove the conspiracy theory. And please, do not say that the only reason why you are not doing that is because you don't have to. The only reason is, that there are no publicly available facts which prove unambiguously the conspiracy theory. All what you cited so far were blah-blah-blah style speculations. When such speculations take place of facts, it harms Misplaced Pages. ellol (talk) 15:10, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Biophys, your choice of sources is questionable. First, while you mention Russian experts with your pov you do not mention a single one with opposite view. Such people as Yulia Latynina and Leonid Radzikhovskiy who are generally very critical of Russian goverment said they don't believe it or hold it unlikely (links in a day - I'm writing from handy). And using fictional books as sources is beyond wp policies, really. Alæxis_¿question? 04:29, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

And here are the promised prooflinks: Latynina's article in EJ.ru, transcript of Radzikhovsky's program on Echo of Moscow Alæxis_¿question? 07:35, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

• Biophys, your sources are dishonest:

1. They are all tied to Berezovksy, who stated that he wants to overthrow Russia's Government by force, or any means necessary. Via logic, we can deduce that one of these means is blaming the Russian Government for an act that the Russian Government did not commit.

2. They are all Russia bashers, or people who have an axe to grind against Putin, and cannot possibly be objective, as they are paid for bashing Russia.

Let's analyze: Alexander Litvinenko defected from the FSB to Berezovsky's clique. I doubt he is objective. And where's the proof? Oh right, Litvinenko has none, other than his word. Satter's testimony was not accepted by the US Congress. Instead the US accepted Putin's version. Is the US Congress controlled by Putin? Really now, Biophys? Edward Lucas has been bashing Russia non-stop. He's one of the attack dogs. Maybe he has proof? Oh wait, he has none. Or perhaps you can show us the "documentary" movies by Nekrasov. Oh wait, they have Litvinenko telling his side of the story, and calling that a "documentary". Felshtinsky co-wrote a book with Alexander Litvinenko. Pribylovsky makes money by spreading propaganda, some true, some not true, about Russia's government on his website, anticompromat.org. None of these people have a shred of objectivity towards Russia. They're all paid to bash Russia. But I am glad that you suggested fictional books, because what you are proposing to input into Misplaced Pages as the "majority view", is fiction.

Now for the other side: first we have the acknowledgement by all UN Members of Russia's side of the story. That's all UN Members. Professional, unbiased scholars, such as Murphy, Sakwa and Ware, take Russia's side. Additionally, as was pointed out earlier, journalists, such as Latynina, who are anti-Russian, but not tied to Berezovski, and aren't paid for bashing Russia, do not confirm your account. They do the exact opposite, confirm Russia's account.

As if this was not enough, we have the facts. Saudi born terrorist, Osama bin Laden Ibn-Al Khattab, states that he will fly planes into buildings blow up apartments in Russia, if the Al Qaeda Wahhabist bases are hit. Because these bases are used for armed incursion, they are hit. The buildings apartments are blown up. Osama bin Laden Ibn-Al Khattab takes responsibility for the bombings. As a result, people hate him even more. After finding that out, Ibn-Al Khattab stands up and says "I didn't do it, honest!" And instanly the Berezovksy clique yells "it was Putin's FSB!"

Those are the facts, all coming from secondary sources. Our job is to tell the reader the facts, and let him judge. Our job is not to promote Berezovsky's conspiracy theory on Misplaced Pages. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 06:27, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

• • My interpretation of the Misplaced Pages project is different. There is not a goal of seeking truth in it. You may be motivated by your understanding of truth in adding new references or questioning the references from the other side, but you cannot hold to your motivation as the argument. From what I see, you perceive Misplaced Pages as a secondary source while it was designed to be a tertiary source. --ilgiz (talk) 15:43, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
  • This probably applies to all parties involved in the revert war. Phrases such as "They were quickly blamed" or "used as a pretext" describe connections that are not universally accepted, so one needs to add in-text references such as "according to this researcher" or "This politician said that" along with links to the sources. Please stop personification of the discussion and address issues not editors. --ilgiz (talk) 15:53, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Both HW007 and I have demonstrated sources that there are no less experts who doubt FSB involvement. There're more sources supporting both versions in Russian-language Misplaced Pages, among those who didn't believe in FSB involvement version was Paul Klebnikov. So the initial statement by Biophys (in the header) is not quite true.

      Could someone please propose something definite or else what is the point of the discussion? I would propose again to remove the word 'conspiracy' from the section heading and let the readers decide by themselves whether it's a conspiracy theory or no based on the sources in that section. Alæxis_¿question? 19:58, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

    • The article is fine as it is. Additionally, we have Misplaced Pages rules which prevent us from promoting conspiracy theories. As per, http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories, we aren't allowed to present conspiracy theories as anything, except what they are - conspiracy theories. We even have a whole section on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories#Unwarranted_promotion_of_fringe_theories From the source: Proponents of fringe theories have in the past used Misplaced Pages as a forum for promoting their ideas. Existing policies discourage this type of behavior: if the only statements about a fringe theory come from the inventors or promoters of that theory, then various "What Misplaced Pages is not" rules come into play. Because we don't want to be reported, we must clearly label conspiracy theories, as conspiracy theories.

In order to prove that this is not a conspiracy theory, Biophys, Ilgiz, et al, have to do the following:

1. Demonstrate factual evidence that FSB did it, not just hearsay. Said evidence must apply to Russian Apartment Bombings, instead of bombs that did not go off.

2. Show a 1999 or 2000 source that claims FSB did it, has no ties to Berezovsky, and does not want the Russian Government overthrown by force. Said sources must be actual sources, rather than credible and semi-credible politicians merely quoting the Berezovsky clique.

3. Such evidence must have a shread of NPOV in it.

4. They must also credibly negate the current fact pattern: As if this was not enough, we have the facts. Saudi born terrorist, Osama bin Laden Ibn-Al Khattab, states that he will fly planes into buildings blow up apartments in Russia, if the Al Qaeda Wahhabist bases are hit. Because these bases are used for armed incursion, they are hit. The buildings apartments are blown up. Osama bin Laden Ibn-Al Khattab takes responsibility for the bombings. As a result, people hate him even more. After finding that out, Ibn-Al Khattab stands up and says "I didn't do it, honest!" And instanly the Berezovksy clique yells "it was Putin's FSB!"

Until that is done, this should be regarded as a conspiracy theory, and treated as such, as per Misplaced Pages policy: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox_or_means_of_promotion, which states:

Opinion pieces . Although some topics, particularly those concerning current affairs and politics, may stir passions and tempt people to "climb soapboxes" (i.e. passionately advocate their pet point of view), Misplaced Pages is not the medium for this. Articles must be balanced to put entries, especially for current events, in a reasonable perspective, and represent a neutral point of view. All I'm asking is that we use facts, and label conspiracy theories as conspiracy theories. C'mon folks, it ain't that complicated. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 20:26, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

• • • • I do not see an example of conflict of interests or self-publishing, in the Misplaced Pages editing sense, in presenting the secondary sources supporting the theory of government involvement. Let us not stir the discussion into a debate over the events and their interpretation. All we can do is present reliable secondary sources. --ilgiz (talk) 22:04, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
        • Did you just ignore WP:FRINGE entirely? If it is a conspiracy theory, it must be treated like a conspiracy theory. We have Misplaced Pages rules to follow. The qoutes above have nothing to do with WP:COI. If you would like, I can show you an article where Biophys might be breaking WP:COI, but this isn't that article. Please do not confuse WP:FRINGE with WP:COI. WP:FRINGE is very simple, it's black and white: if this is a view held by a single clique, whereas the rest of the World, including the UN, disagrees with it, use WP:FRINGE. I'm sorry, I can't make it any clearer. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 21:27, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

People, you talked a lot, but only Alaexis mentioned one book so far. Alaexis, do you mean book "Godfather of the Kremlin" and what exactly chapter of this book do you mean? Unfortunately, Latynina and Radzikhovsky did not wrote any books on the subject of this article. This is still a majority view based on books by experts if you can not provide refs to books that claim something different.Biophys (talk) 05:36, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Fine, I looked at the book by Klebnikov (pages 302-305). He tells about the claims by Lebed' and Makhadov that bombings were organized by Russian government, but believes there is no enough evidence of that. He also tells "if Berezovsky was involved in the bombings, this secret would remain an iron bond attaching Putin to Berezovsky". That's a neutral position, not in support of any version.Biophys (talk) 05:55, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Biophys - is there anything wrong with this fact pattern?

Saudi born terrorist, Osama bin Laden Ibn-Al Khattab, states that he will fly planes into buildings blow up apartments in Russia, if the Al Qaeda Wahhabist bases are hit. Because these bases are used for armed incursion, they are hit. The buildings apartments are blown up. Osama bin Laden Ibn-Al Khattab takes responsibility for the bombings. As a result, people hate him even more. After finding that out, Ibn-Al Khattab stands up and says "I didn't do it, honest!" And instanly the Berezovksy clique yells "it was Putin's FSB!"

If there is nothing wrong with it, that means you have a conspiracy theory, and we must follow WP:FRINGE.

There aren't a lot of books on "who did 9/11" either. That's because it's obvious. Just as mathmaticians with PhDs don't usually write books why 2 + 2 = 4, so scholars and reporters aren't going to focus on "who blew up the apartments" - because from the fact pattern it is obvious who did it. Initially, Khattab even took responsibility! And he wasn't under duress when he did so! HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 21:41, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Biophys, you ignored my statement in this discussion (it starts with the words "If you are providing the best available secondary sources, it should be no trouble for you to cite here the list of facts, mentioned in the secondary sources, which unambiguously prove the conspiracy theory."). Please, care to reply. My point is that the issue of credibility of the conspiracy theory amounts to the available facts. The principle of using secondary sources means yet that to prove your point you need to cite a work which reviews those facts -- if they exist. ellol (talk) 16:08, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

We are not in the business of proving anything. I can only tell that a majority of books on the subject, which are noted by me above, claim that bombings have been committed by the FSB; others (like the book by Klebnikov) tell that the FSB involvement was not proven. And this should be described accordingly.Biophys (talk) 06:33, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, as you correctly stated, we are not in the business of proving anything. But if you claim that the bombings were committed by the FSB, you should be able to cite the works which prove that point with facts. If that's impossible, we can't treat the conspiracy theory as a fact. And we view it accordingly -- as a pure speculation which has several supporters. There is a section in this article which views the conspiracy theory. ellol (talk) 14:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Fine, let's put Introduction aside for a minute. I would like to make some changes in the body of the article to better reflect factual events (as you suggested) rather than anyone's interpretations. Would you allow me to do this without reverting? Just to clarify, I mean any events directly related to the bombings per WP:RS. For example, if an RS tells that Ugrumov and Romanovich were killed because of their alleged participation in the bombings, the factual information about their death belongs here (and it does not matter if they were actually involved or not - we do not make such judgments). If Galkin factually made a testimony about the bombings (and he did, no one ever disputed this), this also belongs here. Was his testimony false or not is the second and completely different question. Biophys (talk) 15:17, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't own this article, like you or anyone here.

Yet, your proposals are questionable. You know that Galkin made his "testimonies" under torture, in captivity. In circumstances like that, everybody would say anything to please the bandits. A person can't resist torture, that's why "testimonies" like that aren't viewed, that's the generally approppriate world practice. (See a related discussion at this talk page.)

Other your proposals also aren't ethically clean. Romanovich died in April 1998 -- long before the events. Ugrumov died because of a heart attack in 2001. ellol (talk) 17:44, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

We cannot use evidence, any evidence, irrespective of whom it benefits, if said evidence was obtained under torture. Was Galkin's Evidence obtained under torture? Undeniably, it was. End of discussion. And evidence obtained under torture is not 100% factual. You torture someone enough, you can get them to confess that in a few minutes, a fleet of pink elephants will be invading the United States. Calling this "evidence", factual, is superbly wrong. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 08:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Fine, all points are taken. That's interesting ref. about Romanovich (it needs to be checked against other sources). Sure, many people died from "hart attack", even Anatoly Sobchack. There is nothing wrong to write about controversial confessions about the bombings if they are reliably sourced.Biophys (talk) 20:42, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Romanovich was noted as someone directly involved in planting the bombs in Moscow in a hundred of sources. Now, exactly 10 years after the bombings an unknown person sends copies of undescribed documents, allegedly from Cyprus, claiming that Romanovich died on Cyprus earlier. The publication does not tell why and when he died, what was the nature of the documents, and who had prepared them. Fine, this should be noted.Biophys (talk) 20:59, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Please, address your concerns 1) to the widow of gone Romanovich, 2) to the Government of Cyprus, 3) to the editorial board of Novaya Gazeta. And please, let us know of the results, it's actually interesting. Until that moment, we have to deal with this link which sais that Romanovich died in 1998 and has the power of a fact. ellol (talk) 06:36, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but as a matter of fact, we have one publication in Novaya gazeta claiming one thing and numerous publications claiming something completely opposite. This should be handled per WP:NPOV. We tell that Romanovich was involved according to such and such publications, but another publication claimed that he was not involved. That's a typical "controversy".Biophys (talk) 19:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Novaya Gazeta is a reputable Russian investigative newspaper. I think, you don't have reputable sources claiming the opposite to what was stated in it. Please, provide them, otherwise. ellol (talk) 21:25, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

There is not an absolute criterion on reliability of secondary sources in Misplaced Pages. Its policies provide general guidelines and examples of mostly reliable and mostly unreliable sources. Only fringe sources that did not get attention of researchers are the likely candidates for exclusion. --ilgiz (talk) 22:47, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey, it's simple as that -- when did that man die? If we can't figure out a thing as simple as that, having reliable sources (like a major Russian newspaper), what can we do at all? ellol (talk) 23:47, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Besides, I exactly inquired Biophys for whatever evidence he can provide to spill more light on this story -- if he finds Novaya Gazeta evidence unsasisfactory, contradictory, whatever. ellol (talk) 23:49, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

There is no need to ask for sources that are already mentioned. Your line of thought implies there is absolute truth about the disputed time and cause of the event. --ilgiz (talk) 00:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Re to ellol: There was no any "evidence" in the brief note in Novaya gazeta. No text of the alleged "documents", no descriptions of the documents. Nothing. Are you serious suggesting me to interview people involved in the case (widow of Romanovich and others) to obtain the evidence? Biophys (talk) 23:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Let's focus on factual events

I made a few edits to keep this article as factual as possible and only briefly mention theories that are described in a separate article. All factual events belong here. Long debates of "theories" belong there. OK? Biophys (talk) 04:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Please explain what was wrong with providing Bibliography section, removing POV forks and other changes. Fix specific problems instead of revering everything please.Biophys (talk) 15:17, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

You removed some facts, like, the subsection "Previous threats"; you removed all the criticism of the conspiracy theory. That's "what was wrong". ellol (talk) 16:01, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Fine, I now removed nothing. Please note that section "Previous threats" was not removed even in the previous version. The material was moved to a different section where it belongs.Biophys (talk) 16:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Fine version. Like it. ellol (talk) 16:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! How about (a) this edit and (b) this edit? Biophys (talk) 16:19, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you can agree with (a), but (b) should be completely re-written to be NPOV. I will do it.Biophys (talk) 16:24, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't like (a) and I don't like (b). In (a), I object the wording "FSB investigation". I'm not even sure that the FSB has the authority to investigate. I think, that with no further evidence (that's currently next to none) in favour of the conspiracy theory it's OK to refer to it as the conspiracy theory. Regarding (b), I am not sure it fits this article. Possibly, it would fit better the article, viewing the theories in datails. After all, this article is mostly about events, something a bit more real-world, than books. ellol (talk) 16:44, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, as stated in Russian wiki entry for FSB,

"According to the article 7 of Federal Law of April 3, 1995 N 40-FL "About Federal Security Service", the activity of FSB bodies is performed to do the following tasks: Counter-intelligence activity / fight against terrorism / fight against crime / intelligence activity / activity to secure borders / guaranteeing informational security."

The powers to investigate a criminal case do not fit any of these tasks. ellol (talk) 16:50, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Keeping discussions of theories in this article

All sources tell that investigation was supervised and conducted by the FSB as a serious terrorism case (in US that would be handled by the FBI). But let's talk about our main disagreement. We have two options here: (a) we leave only a brief description of theories in this article, and the theories are debated in detail in a separate article, Explanation attempts for the Russian apartment bombings (that is what I tried to do in last edits), or (b) we discuss the theories here, with all pro and contra (then the "Explanation attempts for the Russian apartment bombings" should be eventually deleted as a POV fork). I would agree with any option. Which one do you prefer? Biophys (talk) 17:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

We have a mainstream view, that's more than a theory, and we have a conspiracy theory, which is a theory. I do not understand, how do we have multiple theories here. ellol (talk) 18:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Fine, let it be one theory. Should we discuss it in detail (support/criticism) (a) in this article or (b) in Explanation attempts for the Russian apartment bombings? If (a), I will significantly expand this section here. If (b), let's remove all discussions of the theory from this article (as I did) and place them to Explanation attempts for the Russian apartment bombings.Biophys (talk) 18:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I do not have time right now to continue this discussion. Sorry for the delay. ellol (talk) 18:58, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

As it stands, this is simply copy and paste from Explanation attempts for the Russian apartment bombings. You said that FSB involvement is a "conspiracy theory". Fine. Then what we have is a copy and paste of debates (rather than facts) about a conspiracy theory. Let's keep where it belongs.Biophys (talk) 04:22, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

And could you please read this?Biophys (talk) 05:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Interesting article. And would you possibly read this? ellol (talk) 13:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant to this article. BTW, I am perfectly aware of the serious ethnic tension in this region, as I visited Caucasus on numerous occasions. The Chechnya was an extremely hostile place for Russians even in the old Soviet times. Which is understandable. Biophys (talk) 15:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I see no troubles with the article in its current state. The Conspiracy theory is laid out, then, its criticism is provided.

There's no support of the conspiracy theory, which does not use authority ("McCain said there are serious evidence in support of the theory." McCain did not say which ones.) As the option, I can propose removing any mentions of the conspiracy theory at all.

The Criticism section in this article was not copypasted from the article "Explanation attempts for the Russian apartment bombings". Rather than that, the corresponding section in the "Explanation attempts" article was copypasted from this article. You can see it in 1) history of the "Explanation attempts", 2) the criticism list in this article is better updated, than the one in the "Explanation attempts".

I object inclusion of a section, which reviews the books. Yet, these books are listed in the Bibliography section of this article. ellol (talk) 14:21, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, you believe that discussions of theories should be kept in this article. Good. Then I am going to expand this section and remove content forks from another article. As about the books and movies, this possibly can be handled through asking third opinions.Biophys (talk) 15:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I object removing criticism from this article. The existence of a separate article which uses some of the contents from this article doesn't justify the removal.

I don't think that discussions belong to Misplaced Pages. But reasons pro and contra, certainly, do. ellol (talk) 16:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Besides, what about Latynina's criticism of the conspiracy theory? Why it's not included? ellol (talk) 16:49, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Sure, please include.Biophys (talk) 15:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Since you want to include all materials here, let's do it. Then "Explanation attempts" should be eventually deleted as a content fork, after an AfD discussion of course. I will bring materials here.Biophys (talk) 01:35, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Done. How about nominating "Explanation attempts" for deletion?Biophys (talk) 02:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Since we have the theory of FSB involvement as a significant part of the article (including "criticism" and "support"), it must be mentioned in the introduction.Biophys (talk) 05:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Again, you are adding much of emotional stuff, and none of the facts. Please, provide any factual evidence in favour of the conspiracy theory, if you want to give more weight to it.

You also re-added evidence, obtained from Galkin under torture, while we discussed it at this talk page, and decided that evidence obtained under torture doesn't belong here. ellol (talk) 13:19, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Why did you revert?

What exactly "emotional stuff" are you talking about? There was none. Everything was completely sourced. If something was not, please mark as "unsourced". Or please fix any errors starting from the current version. I made 18 edits. Let's consider them in reverse order. What was problem with this? With this? With this? And so on and so on. Please explain. I did no reverts yesterday.Biophys (talk) 15:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

A good example of emotional vs. rational stuff:

Your version: They were quickly blamed by the Russian government on Chechen separatists and together with the Islamist invasion of Daghestan, a republic within the Russian Federation, that took place in August 1999 were used as a pretext for the military invasion of the breakaway Chechen Republic, which started on September 30 and escalated the Second Chechen War.

My version: Together with the Invasion of Dagestan launched from Chechnya in August 1999 by Islamist militia led by Shamil Basayev and Ibn al-Khattab, the bombings caused the Russian Federation to intensify the Second Chechen war.

Everything is sourced, that's fine, but we don't need here further details into the conspiracy theory, if there are no, albeit tiniest, facts in support of the theory. ellol (talk) 15:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

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