Misplaced Pages

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This is the talk page for discussing General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement and anything related to its purposes and tasks.

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement page.

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Proposal

I would like to propose a moratorium on requests for enforcement by partisans against other partisans. There seems to be a lot of tit-for-tat going on. Guy (Help!) 17:01, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

(ec) That's one idea. The other idea is to have them bring it here so that something can be done about it. However, one interesting thing about this area is that everyone is considered a partisan, as of some time right before their first edit. Mackan79 (talk) 17:52, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

What's the point of the sanctions if editors can't use them to win content disputes against their opponents? In all seriousness, I propose a 1-year topic ban on all disruptive editors from both warring factions. The might sound extreme but please read the following post from Jimbo and ask yourself, "Does this situation sound familiar?" A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:49, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

That is quite an interesting opinion. Of course, even more than Scientology, Climate Change is forever finding new supporters for both sides of the debate; it would be interesting that if a few of the more entrenched participants of either sets of opinion were removed from the area whether there would be the successful recruiting of adversarial minded editors. Perhaps it is the type of subject that attracts overly resolute contributors? LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

"Climate Change is forever finding new supporters for both sides of the debate" I don't see how it would be any worse than it is now. In fact, this seems to have slowed down quite a bit. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:47, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Why, thank you... ;~) LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:52, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

In all seriousness, I propose a 1-year topic ban on all disruptive editors from both warring factions. Interesting idea. AQFN, what would be your response to those who say this should include you? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:29, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

This may not be the answer that you were expecting, but I can say this with complete honesty: I don't believe that I've ever made a single edit that was against WP:NPOV (or at least my understanding of it at the time). I try to write for multiple viewpoints (including the opponent) with weight expressed in proportion to their prominence in reliable sources. When you see edits which only express√ one POV, it's only because the other POV was already included in the article and I was trying to balance out the neutrality. My biggest mistake so far (that I am aware of) in terms of WP:NPOV was when I cited WP:AVOID to argue against "Climategate" as article title. I now believe that I was wrong because WP:NPOV is a policy and WP:AVOID is a guideline and you can't use a guideline to override a policy. Any other mistakes are probably minor and accidental. I'd welcome any disinterested and neutral party to examine my edits and I doubt they would find much wrong with them. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

"I don't believe that I've ever made a single edit that was against WP:NPOV." I honestly don't know how to respond to that. It's rare that I'm at a loss for words, so mark the date. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:09, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

LOL. I told you that it might not be the answer that you were expecting. I suggest that you read the rest of my answer so you understand what I mean. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:12, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I do understand. That's what bothers me. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:15, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Here's Jimbo's reply to my suggestion that CC be handled in a manner similar to Scientology.. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:03, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I figured he'd eventually get payback for that. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:44, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

What the fuck

Moved from main enforcement page to talk. Franamax (talk) 03:29, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Permalink before move: Franamax (talk) 03:34, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Did anybody here notice that there is no reply to this request in the WMC section? And that WMC has not edited Misplaced Pages since about 3 hours before this request has been created? Do we now block people without a hearing? If yes, I have a couple of blocks I'm sorely tempted to make. In short, I consider this a major fuck-up. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:51, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I was aware Dr Connolley was inactive, when I blocked the account. I had not expected WMC to respond, however, to the Request since it was apparent that he had violated his 1RR restriction and that he had used the terminology as evidenced by the diffs. What was he going to do? I would point out that the allegations of 1RR and unfortunate choices of wordings were contained in the Marknutley Request which WMC participated in - and to which he made no response, then. The reviewing admins, and the comments by others, addressed the content of the allegations, and not the contributor, and a decision was made and enacted. Should we have waited for when, or if, Dr Connelley returned to see if he had something to say and then block him for obvious violations of his restrictions? I would not be surprised if some editors would prefer that, and there may now be some questioning from that quarter about why sanctions are not made in such a way as to ensure that "naughty editors" are properly "punished". This admin, however, sees sanctions as preventative, and that is why I continued to make the block. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

""naughty editors" are properly "punished"" This has nothing to do with punishing bad editors. It has to do with ending the disruption. The purpose of Misplaced Pages is to create a high-quality, free-content encyclopedia in an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect among contributors. Perhaps you can explain to us, LessHeard vanU, how WMC's repeated acts of misconduct help advance the project? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

They do not. His high quality content contributions to a number of topics do. I do not wish for what may be the case, that Dr Connolley has left the project, but I would wish to try and close down the avenues by which his actions have been disruptive. You may feel that the nett result of Dr Connelley's prolonged absence from editing WP to be beneficial, but I do not. They would, however, be vastly improved if he were to contribute in full compliance to not only the wording of his restriction(s), the probation, and Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, but also the spirit. Of course, if you feel that I am not acting in what I sincerely believe is in the best interests of the encyclopedia then I have nothing more to say - it would be a waste of both of our time. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

(after e/c, mixed msg, maybe) Noo, The purpose of Misplaced Pages is to create a high-quality, free-content encyclopedia, full-stop. The camaraderie and mutual respect are choices we make, they are not overarching goals. The content is the once and future king. If we punish anything, it's degrading the content. You can argue that WMC degraded content two hours early, and for that he has been blocked from editing. Franamax (talk) 23:56, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

LessHeard vanU, I'm not saying you're not sincere, I'm saying that these little slaps on the wrist have obviously not ended the disruption and that stronger action is required. A 48 hour ban is more appropriate and if this editor continues to be disruptive, the penalties should continue to escalate (4 days, a week, 2 weeks, a month, etc.) until the disruption has ended. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

"If we punish anything, it's degrading the content." Would that it were so. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:06, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Franamax: The camaraderie and mutual respect are choices we make Actually, a more modest goal is that editors are supposed to be allowed to edit the encyclopedia without having to put up with an editor's repeated violations of WP:BATTLE and WP:DISRUPT. To get closer to that ideal, we need admins to enforce policy with some degree of effectiveness. William M. Connolley's lengthy record of WP:GSCC sanctions and blocks strongly indicates that isn't happening. Why do you suppose that is, Franamax? -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:36, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Possibly because he's strong on the science side and his head tends to explode when interacting with those less scientifically literate? That should be a manageable difficulty. We need editors who don't only approach CC as a social science. Like I said, I agree with the sanction, within a factor of four (upwards). And SBHB, note my choice of "punish" rather than "prevent". "egrading the content" is often a subjective judgement, but yes, an awful lot of people are intercepted at the door and asked to leave quietly (as in RBI). Whether or not the results meet your own expectations, not for me to say. Franamax (talk) 00:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have specified that my comments were in regard to the present sanctions regime, which by design makes no reference whatsoever to content. And yes, I'm aware that vandals are blocked, etc. But we have reached the sad state where people have been taught not to "waste" their 1RR on such things as correcting factual errors. Hardly a recipe for improving content. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:04, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Possibly because he's strong on the science side and his head tends to explode when interacting with those less scientifically literate? I believe one of the edits in question was whether or not to label some sources "conservative". "glowing reviews" or "positive endorsements" was the proper wording for some book reviews. Scientific literacy had nothing to do with that explosion. We need editors who don't only approach CC as a social science. Does that sentence indicate that you treat William M. Connolley with kid gloves that you wouldn't treat other editors with because there's one standard of behavior for editors you value as scientifically literate? Personally, I haven't found the more scientifically literate editors any more valuable than other editors on CC articles that are not primarily about the science of climate change. Other than helping with some background material, there is no advantage. But if scientifically literate editors believe they can get away with behavioral violations that other editors will be sanctioned for (because admins feel we need editors who don't only approach CC as a social science), then there's a distinct disadvantage -- for Misplaced Pages. I assume you didn't mean to imply you've got one behavioral standard for the scientifically literate and another for anyone else. I hope you'll make that clear. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:34, 3 April 2010 (UTC)correction -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:46, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Part of the problem is that editors like WMC know they will get preferential treatment, so they don't feel compelled to follow the rules. Any other editor with 10-odd requests against him (a significant portion of which resulted in warning or sanction) would have received significant sanction by now, likely a lengthy topic ban or even a lengthy block. Indeed, several editors who have fewer warnings have received longer sanctions. So what's the incentive for WMC to change? If all he'll ever get is the occasional 24-48 hour block and nothing more, I think he'll continue to repeat the behavior - he's already demonstrated that twice since this probation began. As Cla has said, what is needed is an escalating block length for each transgression until the problem is solved, one way or another. This is not a criticism of LHvU's close (I think any action is better than none, and LHvU's decision respected the admin consensus) but simply an opinion that it will likely not work.

As for WMC's contributions, I think editors must be judged by their overall net contribution to the project, not just their article content. If an editor is so combative that he drives off other potentially good editors, then their net effect on the project may not be so positive; it may even be negative (if it were possible to quantify such a metric). ATren (talk) 02:01, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

JWB, if you assumed I don't hold a different behavioural standard for some editors, you're pretty much wrong. I have a deep respect for the editors who make this engine turn over, and I don't count myself among them. I know how to read a scientific "letter" and I know about four editors here I could go ask for clarification on the fine points of cosmology or atmospheric chemistry (plus some RefDeskers I could ask amything at all and get a great answer) - I'd rather see them all hang in there, same as the gnarly but excellent editors in history or geography or literature topics. We force people to use secondary ionterpretations, but we need them wut' can understand the primary interpretations too. Yes, there is a double-standard for me, if that thought comforts you. Remember that you can always acquire the requisite knwoledge of science, history, geography or literature so that you can stand as an equal, it's a volunteer site after all. The crossover from science to society is just a management task.

All that said, my recent thinking is to ask WMC to voluntarily exit from participation on one article of his choosing for, say, a month - then demonstrate how it's quality has declined in his absence. Franamax (talk) 02:42, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Franamax, I can't remember -- which was the more scientifically literate position, glowing endorsements or positive reviews? Is it more scientifically literate to keep or delete Climate change denialism? Does science tell us whether or not "Climategate" is the proper name for the article? Ultimately, those are political (or political journalism or maybe even library science) questions. Many of the other conflicts in this area are also not conflicts about the science. If you are going to be granting more leeway to editors -- or even one editor -- on one side of those questions than the other side, you would violate the spirit behind our policies on neutrality, and you would also give incentives to editors on the favored side to cause disruption that will goad editors on the other side to react with similar misbehavior and get longer blocks and more topic bans. To repeat: You're actually would be giving editors an incentive to be disruptive. It also amounts to a a kind of POV pushing by proxy. The less disruption and the more calm reasoning we do (except for some occasional levity), the more our consensus decisions on content can be reasonable and accurate, which is the only real way that Misplaced Pages's consensus system can address Boris' concerns. (It does require patience.) If you can't refrain from putting your thumb on the scale in what amounts to a POV war, don't participate as an admin here. If I've mischaracterized anything in your position, please correct me. It would be interesting to know if any other admins have the same position. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 03:56, 3 April 2010 (UTC) I think the above sounds more like an accusation than an argument for where Franamax's position on granting leeway would inevitably lead. I'm not making an accusation, and I'm withdrawing the phrasing that sounds too much like one or adding clarifying words in italics. The purpose here is to help think through an idea. I'm busy this holiday weekend, and if I miss something, I hope this explanation adequately makes the distinction clear. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 18:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Remember that you can always acquire the requisite knwoledge of science, history, geography or literature so that you can stand as an equal, it's a volunteer site after all. Just what do you know about what "requisite knowledge" my professional or academic or avocational background gives me in this or any other area of the encyclopedia? And who are you to characterize it? -- JohnWBarber (talk) 04:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC) Clarification accepted. The wording comforts you. Remember that you can always acquire with the first, snarky "you" referring to me, led me to believe that the second "you", three words down the line, also referred directly to me. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 18:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I grant leeway to those editors who I feel bring extra thought to the proceedings and/or bring an ability to spew forth sourced verbiage which I can then read and pronounce as a good thing. There are many such editors. In some cases, when those editors get upset I try as quietly as possible to get them calmed down and back to the typewriter, where the bread and water is provided free (for a small shipping & handling charge). I'm interested in your extrapolation of "thumb on scale", how many data points are you drawing that curve through? (An old joke from when we used to say "Test facilities? We have hundreds. We call those 'customer sites'." ;) I've not attempted to influence CC content that I'm aware. My only foray was to indicate at the CRU-hack article that I intended to split the POV tags between article name and article content - and hey presto, a few weeks later it is renamed and appears to have no tags at all. Thumb on the scales indeed. (Oh yes, do keep in mind that "you" is both singular and plural in English, and I'll apologize if you thought I meant you as in the you pounding that particular keyboard, I meant y'all:) Franamax (talk) 10:01, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Leeway extends only so far. There are nine archived GSCC complaints with "William Connolley" in the title in addition to the 10th one still on the complaints page. I've mentioned the list of sanctions against him in the GSCC log. There's been commentary in dead-tree publications about this editor's Misplaced Pages history. His violation of the 1RR sanction seems brazen, having done it twice in a short period and at about the same time filed a 1RR complaint against another editor that is very obviously without foundation. Continuing to extend leeway to the point where an editor may be willing to get some short blocks in order to keep doing the bad behavior is hurting the encyclopedia. Over on the complaints page, KillerChihuaha has just used the same leeway argument regarding Dave souza, whose user name is not in the title of any of the complaints in the archive. Except that in KC's reasoning, the leeway is peripheral to the main argument, it isn't the backbone of it or extended through a long string of different cases. I'm interested in your extrapolation of "thumb on scale", how many data points are you drawing that curve through? I was pointing out where your leeway justification inevitably strays, not to specific past or present actions on your part. It's your thinking I'm addressing, not your past actions, and if that isn't clear above, I'll refactor. (Looking it over now, it isn't as clear as I thought it was, and I'm crossing out that sentence.) If one or more editors are to be given leeway because of their expertise, and if the editors with that expertise are on one side of a political issue (where expertise is not even decisive), Misplaced Pages is hurt -- whether or not an admin means to "put a thumb on the scale". It isn't hurt much if the leeway-granting is minor and rare and the leewayed editor stops the problematic behavior, but that isn't the case here. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 18:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

nine archived GSCC complaints with "William Connolley" - exactly my complaint. Every complaint has an x% chance of sticking, essentially regardless of merit. So whoever whines more wins more. And if you think the low-blow, factually ridiculously wrong comments by Solomon and his ilk have more value because they are printed on paper, I can only hope you are referring to the increased value in outhouse usage. Bringing those up disqualifies you as a serious commenter. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:15, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Now, now, Stephan. The point was that this editor has taken up a lot of time and attention, and the long list of archived complaints and outside published commentary are evidence of it. The point wasn't that every allegation is true. Sometimes (not often enough) I think something is so obvious that I don't have to spell it out, but I think I could've been more clear there. The list of sanctions and the specific behavior I've mentioned are evidence that a lot of it is true. If Every complaint has an x% chance of sticking, essentially regardless of merit is a serious comment, then you and I definitely have a different idea of what a serious comment is. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:41, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

If WMC has any sense he will walk away from this hellhole and never look back. Ultimately the articles will end up the way the Misplaced Pages "community" wants them to. If that community wants well-sourced articles that accurately reflect academic thought, that's what they'll get. If that community wants articles where the science is sourced from the popular press, where global warming is "just a theory" and there's a raging dispute in the scientific community, they'll get that instead. At the moment the tilt is clearly toward the latter approach. Editors who are scientifically literate in this field might want to stick around for a little while, but in the end we'll probably just find another hobby. It's a big world out there. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:50, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

There is a large difference between "academic" and "scientific" thought. WMC left objectivity at the gate a long time ago, and his pattern of disruptive edits is not helpful to the Misplaced Pages content or community. FellGleaming (talk) 17:22, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

That looks like a personal attack and a failure to assume good faith, please take care to be civil about other editors. The big difference I see between "academic" and "scientific" thought is that the former is a general field, the latter a specific subset relating to, well, science. Which is a relevant subject on the articles where I've seen a pattern of constructive and well informed edits. Diffs needed if allegations of disruption are being made. . . dave souza, talk 18:20, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

(undent) WMC has a continuing pattern of POV pushing and COATRACK forming across his edits. The most recent I saw is a good example, where, overriding a lengthy discussion on the article's talk page, he subtracted a block of text on the grounds the source was a blog, and thus not a WP:RS:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Watts_Up_With_That&action=historysubmit&diff=354362908&oldid=354362715

Sounds superficially plausible. However, not only did it go against WP:CON, but this very brief article has three other blog references which are critical of the article's subject. WMC found no problem with them, but only the source which is critical of his viewpoint did he choose to delete. Further, the entire issue of WP:RS is a red herring in this case, as the source (a UK journalist) is merely explaining how he chose to use a particular phrase. Did WMC actually believe the source was unreliable in this case? Obviously not. It's a continuing pattern spanning thousands of edits; rather than attempting to improve and balance articles, any person who is critical of WMC's personal views on AGW must be discredited at all costs. FellGleaming (talk) 19:37, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Ah, yes, a blog by a journalist who promotes fringe views on global warming, and who at present is the subject of a complaint to the Press Complaints Commission for misrepresenting a scientist he interviewed and so promoting a false impression of the science of climate change. Certainly a questionable source, a matter for editorial judgement. The article itself seems to be promoting those minority views, doubtless that problem will be resolved in due course. Please assume good faith and accept that WMC believed that was an unreliable source. Without checking out the other blog sources, remember WP:SPS allows careful use of blogs in some circumstances. . . dave souza, talk 20:18, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Your reasoning is flawed. The journalist was merely explaining he had used WUWT (the article's subject) as inspiration. WP:RS doesn't even come into play in this case. Do you honestly believe the journalist is lying when he claims he reads the WUWT site?

WMC's reasoning is clear. Journalist blogs are "reliable" if they agree with him. Journalists who disagree -- even those who work for large mainstream news outlets -- are "unreliable". Even this wouldn't be so bad if the point in question was a fact where a blog's lower level of "fact checking" would come into play. But in this case, that's totally irrelevant, and WMC's only motivation here was to ensure the only remaining comments about the article's subject would be negative.

Finally and most importantly, is his issue of ignoring consensus in this case, as the text in question had just completed being discussed on the article's talk page. FellGleaming (talk) 20:39, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Franamax: I think that's a great idea. SBHB: False dichotomy and assumes facts not in evidence. ++Lar: t/c 02:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

To the suggestion that the problem is that WMC doesn't suffer fools gladly ("his head tends to explode when interacting with those less scientifically literate"), well, welcome to the club, WMC, you are not alone in that sentiment. He is not the only person with that challenge but others manage to find ways to contribute successfully. Perhaps what WMC needs is a consigliere. Someone to intermediate for him, someone who does suffer fools at least a bit more gladly. This is actually something that has been suggested before, for various academics who have valuable contributions in their specialty to make. But failing that he has to learn how to get along. Content is king but he can't poison the environment for almost everyone else, even including many of those who agree with him about the science. ++Lar: t/c 02:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Somehow I find it ironic when someone declares "content is king" and yet fewer than 10 of their last 500 edits are in article space. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:01, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that less than ten of my last 500 edits were substantive article contributions and just above I expressed the primacy of content, I suppose you're referring to me then? Have either of Lar or myself gotten in the way of improving the 'cyclo lately? Or are we doing what we can to help it move forward? Franamax (talk) 03:26, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

You're being too modest. I make perhaps 150-200 of your last 500 edits as being in article space. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:37, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Minus the new classes that are given Number the Stars (which has some deep breakage I need to figure out) as a reading assignment and dude who wants to respell Fertilisation? Nope. Thanks though. I won't list the various other "things" I keep an eye on but they are sadly oriented toward various people-problems. I do want to find a new focus for doing actual writing, not quite there yet. Franamax (talk) 04:55, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Boris, do you also find it ironic when content editors comment on behavioral issues? Neither is ironic. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 04:32, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

SBHB: False dichotomy. I can support content being king while not choosing to focus on content creation myself (at this time) The way to get good content is to make sure the whole enterprise runs smoothly and is focused on content creation, and that may require some to contribute other ways than purely banging out content. WMC, despite his knowledge, seems to be hindering that process more than helping it. You might be better served by reading what I say rather than taking swipes at me. ++Lar: t/c 13:22, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

he has to learn how to get along Unfortunately, as of this point we don't have conclusive evidence that he has to learn that at all. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 04:32, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm still ruminating on the idea that those who contribute content, "according to the available reliable references are "expendable", because any other good contributor can use the same references and arrive at much the same content". I wonder what these articles will look like after the politicos and 'social scientists' have driven off all of those who actually understand the material, and so have the topic to themselves. --Nigelj (talk) 15:00, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Any single editor is in theory expendable. In actual practice there are some editors who have expertise or contributions that are so significant or so good that losing that editor is a measurable blow, and finding another editor who is "equivalent" would be a non trivial task. But viewing this at the single editor level misses the forest for the trees. What matters is the totality... no editor gets a free pass, regardless of the level of positive contribution. We make allowances, but we have to balance the needs of the entire project against the contributions of one editor and if an editor is being so disruptive that they are a net negative, something needs doing. Even if they are irreplaceable in their subject area. Unfortunate but this is a larger project than any one subject area. ++Lar: t/c 16:51, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Who is running the ledgers? And is your last sentence apropos anything? As I see it, we have editors with significant contributions all over the project, but who have less than perfect patience with idiots in their own field of expertise. I've not really seen anyone here who is valuable in a small field, but is disruptive overall. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:09, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

The community as a whole runs the ledgers, in theory. And we are writing an entire encyclopedia here so yes, that remark was apropos something. As for your feeling you've "not really seen anyone here who is valuable in a small field, but is disruptive overall", I suggest you haven't been looking very hard. ++Lar: t/c 02:11, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Why would that happen? The revisionist tending editors will not be able to propagate their viewpoint providing that there is one editor who not only understands and applies WP policy and guideline, but also complies with it themselves. Consensus, which is what determines what ultimately is included or not within the article space, is not a question of numbers, loudness, or even durability, but reference to the available reliable third party sources. We do not require editors to understand the primary source being quoted, or even the secondary source that originally notes it, since if it is the orthodox subject point of view there will be numerous third party references that can be understood - and let us be honest, the general readership is more likely to understand the explanation of the report upon the paper rather than the report or paper - for the encyclopedic minded editor. Indeed, some of the internecine wars over the validity of some paper or publication misses the point; editors do not make the decision over whether one opinion carries more weight than another, the reliable sources do. As long as you can point to a reliable peer reviewed third party source, then the content cannot be deprecated. How intelligent and well versed in the subject matter do you need to be to understand that? LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Consensus, which is what determines what ultimately is included or not within the article space, is not a question of numbers, loudness, or even durability, but reference to the available reliable third party sources. Like Stephan, you must be new around here. Glad to make both your acquantainces. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 19:47, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I almost buy that idea, but I'm going to leave it at the checkout counter. This isn't like writing about a traffic accident where you just need to read some newspapers. Complex topics need explication, so familiarity with the subject matter becomes important. Not necessarily at the doctorate level, but familiarity. Especially when deciding on appropriate weight, mere existence in a RS doesn't signify "truth" or even validity. Science is built on disproving other people's work and outdated ideas tend to get left behind without a specific source saying "no-one in the field gives that any credence at all nowadays". Social aspects, sure - if you're writing about what newspapers said about the CRU emails, you just need the newspapers; if you're writing about the content of the emails, say the tree-ring data, you need to have some idea about what tree-rings are. Experts aren't essential for that, but they sure make life a lot easier. Franamax (talk) 20:24, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Let's try to apply this 'anyone can do it' philosophy to Negligible function. --20:37, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

"but they sure make life a lot easier" - except when they don't, like in the case when an expert's downside is so large that there are literally half a dozen admins spending weeks of time trying to figure out how to accommodate this editor's refusal to adhere to even the most basic civility standard. And I'll note, the latest attempt, the token 24-hour block recently administered, has not conveyed the message. Not surprising. ATren (talk) 20:42, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

If I may suggest it, I think section headers with profanity may not invite the broadest desired participation. Mackan79 (talk) 22:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

The header originated as a subsection of a Request on the mainpage, and since it was an honest expression of the editors reaction it was appropriate then - since the discussion has diverted into general philosophical it might be appropriate to change, but check with the originating editor. In essence, when it was created it was appropriate. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:05, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I actually thought it was a bit more off-putting on the enforcement page, considering it should especially be protected from developing an environment where editors won't feel comfortable participating. A lot of us may be pretty bull-headed, but we should try not to make it a pre-requisite for commenting. A conversation that starts with "What the fuck" doesn't sound like it's going to be respectful to differing viewpoints. Obviously this single header isn't a major issue, but I'd nevertheless suggest it be changed by an admin, as I don't think editors are really entitled to control the section headers. Mackan79 (talk) 23:46, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Stephan Schulz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) does have sysop privileges, and he created the header. Why not drop him a request on his talkpage? LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:26, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

WTF? ;) I moved the thread here, then Tony S changed the heading, unless that Olaf Davis is messing with time again. I'm still chuckling that Tony's whole contribution to the discussion was to say "fuck".  :) Franamax (talk) 01:51, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

"Suspected Scibaby sockpuppets"

It's not clear what the point of that section is, given that it won't be used as a basis for running checkuser or any other concrete action. So far it has only been used for joking around. (I heartily endorse joking around, but still and all...) Can it be deleted? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:18, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Archive it, manually? LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:06, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Creation of the section was the outcome of an enforcement action. Let's remove the jokes manually to an archive. If after waiting some additional time we find no use for it, let's archive the whole thing. ++Lar: t/c 13:16, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Joking? I wasn't joking. You can see by Lar's response that he's making a mockery of Misplaced Pages and urgently needs to be blocked, preferably indefinitely. Earnestly, Jehochman 21:04, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Lar's approach sounds about right. I created the section when closing the relevant section, but did not participate in that discussion as I did not have any brilliant brainstorms beyond the current WP:RBI. If we get some use out of it, great, but I would say give it another two weeks or so before reclaiming that space. - 2/0 (cont.) 22:44, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Jehochman: April Fool's is a couple days in the past now, joke's over. 2/0, sounds good to me. ++Lar: t/c 02:00, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

April Fool's? That was purely a coincidence. But I can see that there is no chance of The Truth® being heard, so let's remove the subsection as you suggest. But remember, I've got my eye on you! (/me points at Lar/Scibaby) Jehochman 02:39, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

The self report is gone already, and the rest of the section, if no other use comes of it? Wait a couple of weeks and then archive it, as 2/0 suggests. ++Lar: t/c 03:24, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, OK, someone reported a suspected sock, a real one, not a joke. What now? I don't see any CU doing anything about it. (I'm not currently active as a CU here due to my role as an Ombudsman). So is this section working, or ???.... The report was several days ago, it reports an ID, but gives no detail and isn't signed. We may not need an SPI level formal report but a bit more to go on may help the CU if one turns up. ++Lar: t/c 11:34, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

The reason i marked it there was because there apparently weren't any CU's active, and that this one comes up extremely high on my scibaby detector. The current scibaby SPI is 2 days overdue. Which imho isn't good, since there always is a chance of false positives - and letting these be under suspicion for that long isn't (again imho) OK. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 11:57, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

If we are going to have that section work - then either the SPI report needs to be dropped (and something similar needs to be here), or the documentation needs to be low, otherwise the "paperwork" simply gets too tedious. If CU was fast, then the section would have no meaning... It is only because its slow that i've marked up the user, so that the revert i made couldn't be confused as editwarrring. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 12:01, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree we need low paperwork. But I think a bit more than just the ID might be good. Like a diff or 2, and a signature of who reported it so if there are questions they can be raised. I also agree it's not good to let stuff sit. There's a CU election coming up, I'd encourage those qualified to consider standing. ++Lar: t/c 13:45, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Ah, yes. I forgot the signature - that would be an oversight... i did follow the procedure requested there though. Diffs make rather little sense with Scibaby socks - since the contribution history is usually so small that it can be overlooked easily. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 16:57, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Would you mind signing it, as a personal favor? Thanks. To the larger point, so far nothing's happened. Is that enough to conclude this section isn't needed? Should another sample be taken? Do we try flagging down a passing CU? If this section doesn't work we should scotch it, and instead ask to keep open a Scibaby page at WP:SPI instead, (which I realise now I suggested back when this subpage was being mooted... but then I was an active CU at that time) ++Lar: t/c 19:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Request to uninvolved admins

When arriving or departing the project page, could you look at open requests and either comment or action? If something hasn't been commented upon for a day or so, and there is no obvious consensus, then perhaps it should be collapsed as "no action" - unless you find something that needs addressing. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:29, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Missing entries in Climate change probation log?

On Febuary 27, Guettarda received a warning and on March 3, Nigelj was blocked and Unitanode received a warning. However, I do not see a record of these 2 warnings and 1 block in Climate change probation log. Unless I'm missing something, can someone please add this to the log? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Speaking of warnings, should non-admin warnings be logged? For example I've had a chat with User:Macai about 1RR here. I can see both advantages and disadvantages of logging non-admin warnings. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:12, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

A warning made without input from "uninvolved" parties might not be suitable for inclusion in the log, since an entry may infer an "officialism" that might not exist. In Requests for enforcement there is a provision for noting previous warnings, which I take indicates that such notices are made outside of the the Requests process and are not necessarily found in the log. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:20, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:32, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

(resp to AQFK) Thanks for the heads up, I have duly noted "my" warning. I shall bring the other matter to User:2over0's attention, it being "their" close. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:35, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

The block of Nigelj and warning of Unitanode were enacted and recorded by LessHeard vanU (, ) on 28 February, and appear to still be logged. I suspect that the confusion is that I archived the request a few days after LHvU acted on it, and signed the header. Still, thank you for checking up on this - having an accurate record helps us make informed and proportionate decisions. - 2/0 (cont.) 22:21, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Duh, it was my block and warning, and I recorded it, and did not remember when commented here? I might be taking "uninvolved" to an unnecessary extreme... LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:32, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Should always topic bans be discussed here?

The current wording of the probation, to my understanding, encourages individual uninvolved (as defined there) administrators to act independently to take any measures the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project. Should we so desire, we could amend the wording to encourage or require that any topic ban or other lengthy sanction be referred to Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement for discussion. I moot this question here. - 2/0 (cont.) 01:03, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for raising it. I think in urgent situations, acting first may be key but we should always bring it here for validation. First, if not urgent, but at least after. That's my thinking. ++Lar: t/c 04:28, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not an admin (even on TV) but point out that the terms of the probation here and here say nothing about requiring noticeboard posting or extensive discussion before imposing sanctions. My reading of the discussion leading up to the probation was that the probation is intended to encourage admins to act quickly and decisively, not to require exhaustive discussion at a noticeboard before acting. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your interpretation of the probation as written. Nevertheless, I think the process that has evolved is beneficial and the moderating influence of several admins discussing among themselves (either first, or after when it was urgent) is a good thing. If things shift, that's OK too, that's why we're having this discussion. But I've always held back, made my views known, but left the actual enforcement to others. I guess I'm willing to change that if that's the consensus. ++Lar: t/c 11:24, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with that last part. By more-or-less making reporting at the noticeboard ("whining") mandatory, we have created a heavyweight process, and we run the risk that admins rely on these reports, so they don't get a global picture. In many other areas under probation, admins actively participate and monitor the articles under probation, and act without special prodding from one side (or the other). I think this takes a lot of the battleground mentality out of probation - actions are not (necessarily) initiated by an involved party and framed as an attack from the get-go, but rather by (hopefully) uninvolved and (hopefully) neutral people. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

IOW, 2/0 having followed the established rules and Macai having appealed the imposed sanction at the /Requests_for_enforcement page, should the process be changed to mandate an entry by the acting administrator at the /Requests_for_enforcement page prior to implementing the sanction? This is tantamount to saying that admins now need to request enforcement just like any other user. Please note that this has evident implications across the wiki. Other than that, I have no opinion on it so long as the rules are consistently followed. ... Kenosis (talk) 12:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

One more observation:
....... For those unfamiliar with the norm, an ordinary block is a "discretionary sanction", and normally no one other than the blocked user is notified unless the block might be controversial, in which case WP:ANI is the usual place. If the sanctions are related to a community or ArbCom decision regarding an article, group of articles, or editor, then there is a log page for that specific decision or ruling. For example, the Barack Obama log page is at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Obama article probation/Log of sanctions. In this case, the sanction is noted at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Log, where 2/0 duly noted the sanction minutes after implementing it. It appears to me that the only thing 2/0 missed under the current norm was anticipating that the sanction of Macai would turn out to be controversial. An unanticipated controversy about a sanction is something that has happened many times before across the wiki, and will undoubtedly happen many times in the future. But the sanctioned user has recourse in every event, since such sanctions are appealable at WP:ANI and WP:ARBCOM. In this case Macai chose to appeal here at the Climate_change_probation/Requests_for_enforcement page, at first requesting enforcement against 2/0 (which was declined) and then reformatting the request as an appeal of the sanction(s) imposed by 2/0.
....... As I indicated above, I've no objection to making it standard practice to give "advance notice and an opportunity to be heard in a public hearing where all can weigh in" to those who are potentially subject to escalating sanctions (as here), so long as the established rules are consistently followed. But please note carefully that the proposed new administrative procedural rule here has the effect of reducing administrators' discretion in a topic area under probation (i.e. an enforcement priority), as compared to the established procedure that has become the norm for discretionary sanctions imposed by admins. My impression is that a move like this should perhaps be under discussion in a wider forum such as WP:AN or other wiki-wide forum. ... Kenosis (talk) 13:45, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Unlike Kenosis, I do have an objection to this - there has already been discussion, else there would not be a community sanction. The admins are trusted, otherwise they would not be be admins. Often, sanctions are discussed already - but this should not become required. In the rare occasion that a sanction is considered to be misapplied, it can be modified. But requiring discussion prior to any implementation is self defeating - we will be wikilawyered to death, and might as well not have these sanctions at all. I forsee endless bickering if this becomes a requirement, while those disrupting the 'pedia run unchecked. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 14:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Unilateral action

I have previously requested that 2/0 refrain from taking unilateral action without discussion, because his record of enforcement is heavily weight against the "skeptical" editors -- I believe he's blocked or topic banned at least half a dozen skeptical editors for far less violation than WMC, and in fact he posted a lengthy defense of WMC here in defense of his repeated lack of action. I had actually begun to prepare evidence for an arbitration case against 2/0, and the evidence I had examined was compelling. For example, here is an abbreviated listing of his block log, showing his blocks related to CC articles:

• 17:44, 3 April 2010 2over0 (talk | contribs) blocked Macai (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 48 hours ‎ (WP:edit warring at Climatic Research Unit email controversy.)
• 00:10, 2 April 2010 2over0 (talk | contribs) blocked TMLutas (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 48 hours ‎ (Violation of climate change probation sanction; see User talk:TMLutas#Climate change probation Request.)
• 15:35, 1 April 2010 2over0 (talk | contribs) blocked Marknutley (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 48 hours ‎ (Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement#Marknutley)
• 19:21, 5 March 2010 2over0 (talk | contribs) blocked Dikstr (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 24 hours ‎ (WP:Edit warring at Global warming.)
• 02:54, 28 February 2010 2over0 (talk | contribs) blocked Marknutley (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 48 hours ‎ (WP:Edit warring at Rajendra K. Pachauri. See Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation)
• 13:55, 24 February 2010 2over0 (talk | contribs) blocked ClimateGate (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (usernameblock)
• 04:21, 23 February 2010 2over0 (talk | contribs) blocked HideTheDecline (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (usernameblock)
• 11:00, 22 February 2010 2over0 (talk | contribs) blocked Jprw (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 24 hours ‎ (WP:Edit warring at Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. See Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation)
• 18:54, 16 January 2010 2over0 (talk | contribs) blocked GoRight (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (Disruptive and tendentious editing and abuse of discussion and dispute resolution venues.)
• 21:32, 11 January 2010 2over0 (talk | contribs) blocked Dcowboys3109 (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 24 hours ‎ (WP:Edit warring at Climatic Research Unit hacking incident)
• 23:17, 2 January 2010 2over0 (talk | contribs) blocked ZuluPapa5 (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 55 hours ‎ (WP:Edit warring at Global warming)

I believe every single one of these editors edits from the "skeptical" side. He also imposed signficant topic/article bans against skeptics (JPatterson, Macai, Marknutley). In all that time, I don't believe he's blocked or banned a single editor from the non-skeptic side, and in fact, he posted a lengthy, diff-by-diff defense of WMC in one of his RFEs.

Based on this history of biased enforcement I have requested (repeatedly) that 2/0 refrain from unilateral action -- I have no doubt that he is trying to act in good faith, but the record shows a definite bias. For a while, he did refrain from acting hastily, but this latest action seems to be another hasty act (whether warranted or not). So I am requesting that 2/0 formally retract his unilateral decision here and let the RFE run its course. ATren (talk) 13:03, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

So how many of those bans do you think are wrong? William M. Connolley (talk) 14:22, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

ATren, Rfc Admin Conduct is thatwway-->. This is the wrong venue. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 15:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

That's not clearly so in practice. Allegations are raised here all the time that one admin or another is unilateral or biased. ATren's have the advantage of being actually supported with information rather than being snide remarks made in passing. ++Lar: t/c 19:34, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

And people will keep asking for vandalism blocks at ANI, too, but that doesn't make it the correct venue. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 20:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Further discussion

• I think that any violation specifically relating to the probation should be noted here; Consensus between the uninvolved admins - informed by comment from other parties - makes for less contested actions. This need not be before the imposition of sanctions where there is obvious violation(s) of the probation and the tariff is either as previously advised or not of a duration of more than a few days - and in the later case longer sanctions may be imposed on the basis of being subject to review. If there are questions of interpretation of the probation or of appropriate duration of blocks or bans, then perhaps a discussion before actioning is appropriate. Simply, if the block and or ban is within both the terms of the probation and the general remit of the sysop then any notification will hopefully not draw too much more than a few "concurs".
  The only other point I would make is that unless an admin is responding to serious violations of the probation - ones that would likely draw sanction outside of the probation area - unilaterally imposing blocks and bans without notification places another instance of the differing standards applied to admins and none sysopped editors; the latter have to use the enforcement process - I am for adopting as much of the same process for both types of volunteer, so to diminish any perception of differing status. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:25, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
• I agree with Killer Chihuahua. This won't surprise anybody, I've consistently argued that the probation is intended to strengthen and encourage individual admins and proactive measures. I also think that some aspects of the talking shop that has developed actively hamper the intended beneficial effects of such action by encouraging case-by-case dissection of sanctions.

In other words, at its worst the talking shop reproduces exactly the same wikilawyering that has made the climate change articles and talk pages such a mess for so long. We need to be vigilant and make sure we don't let that happen.

Some people have tried to recast the probation as a way of "leveling the playing field." That kind of thinking simply accepts and condones the battleground mentality.

I don't think the case presently under discussion should be controversial. A previously sanctioned editor is perforce on a shorter leash than he would have been had he not already damaged the area under probation. Tasty monster (=TS ) 16:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh dear, my telephone's Wizard Wheeze of the Day appears to be to remove all paragraphing. My apologies, and do feel free to refactor in a rhetorically pleasing manner. Tasty monster (=TS ) 16:43, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

• I agree with LHvU. What is being advocated is NOT "always have a lengthy discussion FIRST" it is "have a discussion first if there's time and need, or at least a mention AFTER if it's urgent, if it's routine, etc." It is not a request for enforcement to bring it here, it's gaining consensus on what exactly needs doing. BUT, if consensus is to not do this, that's fine, I'll change my practice to conform. ++Lar: t/c 17:36, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

• • Then you're (Lar) saying sanctions should be logged. Great, we agree. Log them. But "have a discussion first" is completely counter to the point of these sanctions. Have you all forgotten how and why these came to pass? It was because all these sanctions were independent, and ended up being endless messes on ANI. Then Sanctions, to be implemented by any independent admin at their sole discretion, were implemented. A place to bring cases to the attention of admins was later created, and now you want to bog it down with the exact same issues this whole procedure was set up to resolve! Thank you, no. We just got out of the bog. Lets keep our feet dry this time,a nd not make this another forum for endless committee debate. Puppy has spoken. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 17:50, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
    • • I think characterizing my position as calling for logging is inaccurate. ++Lar: t/c 19:47, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
        • "at least a mention AFTER" - that would be the logging bit. Yes, we should log. If someone forgets to log, we should take care of it and remind them. All done with what little you have said here which I agree with. Otherwise, not so much. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 20:14, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
    • Adding: The whole point is that we already have consensus. That's why there is a community sanction for Climate change. Look, consensus for sanctions, all listed out and labeled! We don't need to re-evaluate the entire mess each time a problem arises. We need to apply the sanctions appropriately, log and move on. Done. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 18:21, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
      • I don't think this bogs down the way that AN/I does, as it's a narrower audience, and the last part is restricted to admins only. AN/I tends to be a circus with all and sundry opining. If there is controversy about whether a sanction applies our practice here has been to discuss. Not just log. But as I say, if consensus changes, no worries. I will switch to enforcing and logging instead of suggesting. ++Lar: t/c 18:24, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
        • We are also told to "direct all discussions of this remedy to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents." not to discuss each remedy applied anywhere, there or elsewhere. This page is only for requesting action, not for endless debate about each and every remedy applied. This is not consensus changing. This is what is. That you somehow misunderstood the purpose of this board, or scope creep has begun, is a problem - one we can nip in the bud. But that there is a probationary status, with each independant admin able to enforce by applying sanctions as they see fit, has already been decided. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 18:28, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
          • I don't think you addressed my point, which is that this process works. Far better than AN/I does. ++Lar: t/c 19:47, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
            • Yes, it works fine, as a general rule. So please stop trying to change it, thank you. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 20:14, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
              • I'm not the one trying to change the practices at this page. Review the archives. ++Lar: t/c 20:17, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
                • Since the archives only cover what's been brought to this page, and no other instance of applying sanctions, of course you see only instances brought to this page and discussed. You are saying all cases should be brought to this page, and that's counter productive, and a huge change. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 20:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
                  • How many enforcement actions are logged that had no discussion here first? I'm curious as to how many there are. I'll review the log. ++Lar: t/c 20:26, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
                    • Yes, do. Make sure you review all the cases on Misplaced Pages:General sanctions, and especially Sarah Palin, which doesn't even have a Requests page. Make sure to check every sanction on the Barak Obama log page. Check them all. Take your time. Compile a full report in your sandbox. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 20:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
                      • We're talking about this sanction. Not Sarah or Barack. Preliminary results below. ++Lar: t/c 20:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
                        • So now you're saying special rules apply to Climate change, which don't apply to other Community Sanctions or ArbCom sanctions and probation? Please do link the discussion where that was decided. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 20:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
                          • I don't think there was one. Nor does there need to be, unless it turns out there's an issue. It's just how things have evolved here. Seems to work here. I'm not against changing it, I just think it's best to acknowledge how things are first before you start. So you're starting from the right premise, that you want to change the status quo here. Hope that helps. As I said below though, I'm done. I want to hear from the other admins who have been here for a while, actually doing the actual enforcing. ++Lar: t/c 21:32, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

The basic message is this: just sort it out, and stop agonising about the details. If the probation should happen to make it harder to block or ban an obviously problematic editor, then the probation has become the problem and can be ignored. The longer you spend arguing over this, the less effective you are as administrators. You should be empowered by the probation, not hamstrung by the bureaucratic nonsense that has sprung up in its wake. Tasty monster (=TS ) 18:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Exactly, except I can see like a prophecy someone claiming discussion is required prior to any action, if we do not lay this silly idea to bed now. Call me cynical, but I calls 'em like I see 'em. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 19:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

As a non-admin observer, I would now proffer that if there is serious interest in a change such as this, which dilutes administrative discretion in a probation area already discussed by the community, it should definitely be discussed in a wider forum such as WP:AN. If the issue is whether to modify or overturn the topic ban imposed by 2/0, lacking consensus here, it should perhaps be raised at WP:ANI. ... Kenosis (talk) 19:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

There appears to be some confusion. Discussion is NOT something "new", it is current practice here, which IS to discuss things in advance for the most part. We started the sanctions agreeing that we would modify things as we went along and this is what evolved among the admins that were most active here (LHvU, 2/0, BozMo and myself, I'd say). I feel like I'm repeating myself when I say that this current practice doesn't mean that discussion is always required, in advance. That's a strawman and I wish that argument would stop being used. Further I think it's a bit rhetorical to call what we have been doing "this silly idea"... it's been working fairly well, I think. But if consensus among the body of enforcing admins changes, great. Just be sure you know what you're getting. ++Lar: t/c 19:31, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

RE "Discussion is NOT something "new", it is current practice here, which IS to discuss things in advance for the most part. " Actually, no. It's a page created for non-admin users to request enforcement. Admins don't need to request enforcement. What's being proposed is for admins to be recommended or required to do that. Further, 2/0 had two independent bases for implementing an escalated sanction, either of which would have been adequate grounds under current administrative norms to proceed with the sanction and simply log it in the required places, on the user's talk page and in the appropriate log (which he did, anything further being simply an administrative courtesy). The first basis for escalating sanction(s) is provided for by the community discussion leading up to the climate-change probation. This is in the terms of the climate change probation itself, which provides for escalating blocks in situations where an admin judges behavior to be disruptive. The second basis is specified in the sanction of the prior request for enforcement involving Macai, notice of the terms of which was given on Macai's user talk page.
....... Lacking a consensus among admins here or a unilateral action by another admin to modify or overturn 2/0's sanction, if the issue is still up for grabs it should be discussed in a wider forum, where, because of the implications of a dilution of administrative discretion such as is being proposed, it should receive the attention of the broader administrative community. ... Kenosis (talk) 19:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

You need to review the archives of this page. As I told Tony. We discuss things here. Time and again. You may not yet be aware of that but the archives will help clarify it. ++Lar: t/c 20:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

This speaks to exactly the point KillerChihuahua has been making, which is that the purpose of the probation is to provide an expedited path for discretionary administrative sanctions. If this issue and/or the question whether to modify Macai's topic ban can't be resolved by consensus among admins here, it should be brought before the wider administrative community which implemented the probation in the first place. And there, in front of a wider forum of admins, by all means argue that "this is the way we've been doing it over at Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement, so therefore the terms of the probation should be so modified". ... Kenosis (talk) 20:24, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I think there are two questions: firstly, should 2over0 have the power to ban a previously sanctioned editor for problematic behavior without further discussion? secondly, should this probation be altered to require discussion here prior to admin action? While I find both suggestions to be blatantly contrary to the interests of a well run encyclopedia by inserting an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy, I would gladly accept the consensus of a deliberation by admins at WP:AN. Tasty monster (=TS ) 19:42, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree those are the questions. The latter question is, more properly, should the practice here, now, be turned over to STOP encouraging discussion in advance. ++Lar: t/c 19:47, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Lar, quite often you behave in a cheeky way, and usually you get away with it. That's okay. To suggest that your own preference is now a norm, against the wishes and practice of other editors and admins, is too cheeky. You're free to continue discussion here. You're not free to abridge administrative discretion, encouraging which is the primary purpose of this probation. Stop being a cheeky bugger. You've gone too far. Tasty monster (=TS ) 19:54, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry, I don't agree. It's not merely my preference, it's what we actually do here. Policy at WP evolves by people doing things. Take a look at this page and the archives and you will see what the status quo is. Discussion, consensus, action. If we want to change that, so be it, but it's wrong to say it's not what we already do. We have several months of precedent. ++Lar: t/c 20:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh please. Stop being so tendentious. If a complaint/request is brought here, we discuss it - but its not necessary in every freaking case. Now drop it; you don't have support for your very special view of how things are "actually done". KillerChihuahuaAdvice 20:16, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Review the archives. I think you're starting to verge into unhelpful rhetoric now with the tone you're taking. "very special view"? "oh please" et al? I was glad to see some new faces here and I'm as open to change in process as the next fellow, but you have to at least start by acknowledging the facts on the ground of how things have been done here. And drop the snarkiness. ++Lar: t/c 20:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Since the archives only cover what's been brought to this page, and no other instance of applying sanctions, of course you see only instances brought to this page and discussed. You are saying all cases should be brought to this page, and that's counter productive, and a huge change. And yes, Please. There is a problem now with asking politely? I am begging you to end this silliness. You're brighter than this, usually. Please also pick one place on this page where you plan to make your argument,(s) rather than repeating yourself all over. You've said "read the archives" in at least three different places, and all the archives show is how instances brought here were handled - not instances not brought here, which you have been arguing must now be brought here. I disagree with this new requirement you have suggested, strongly. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 20:26, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I respond to responses. Can't help that it's sprawling around a bit but I'm not the only person who needs to pick one place, I guess. ++Lar: t/c 20:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Lar, I hate the term, I think it's childish if it means anything, but at this point I think an American would say that we have "called you out". The probation, indeed all probations, are intended to increase administrative discretion. If you feel that you and some friends have built a forum for limiting administrative discretion, that's interesting and I'm happy for you. But you're wrong. You have to do a bit more than discuss stuff to stop other people doing stuff without getting your imprimatur. This is not your kingdom. If it were, I'd dissolve it (for obvious reasons). --TS 20:25, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Second that. Can we be done with this now? KillerChihuahuaAdvice 20:27, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Rhetoric

Such rhetoric. Here's a link to the log. Misplaced Pages:General_sanctions/Climate_change_probation/Log#Log_of_sanctions Looks like most, but not all, imposed sanctions came from here. I could be misanalysing. ++Lar: t/c 20:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Super. So then please bring it into WP:AN, where the issue can be reviewed by the same community that implemented the probation, and proceed to argue how it's been successful this way in most cases so therefore the terms of the probation should be thusly modified. ... Kenosis (talk) 20:47, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

This page is working fine. Feel free to bring the matter up at AN/I if you feel the need. ++Lar: t/c 20:53, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I personally don't feel the need unless the local decision here is to change the terms of probation formed by the wider community, in which case I imagine I wouldn't be the only one interested. I said earlier that I don't mind such a change so long as the rules are consistently followed, though it's now much clearer to me than before that such a change would cause a substantial inconsistency with the very purpose of the probation, and that such a change would amount to this local group overruling the broader community. ... Kenosis (talk) 21:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

It already has. ++Lar: t/c 21:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

"but not all" kinda says it all. It is therefore not a requirement to discuss a sanction here prior to applying it. As I've previously stated, the idea that an admin must discuss a sanction that he is expressly empowered to impose, prior to imposing it, goes against the principle of administrative discretion which is the engine of all probations. --TS 20:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't recall saying "must". ++Lar: t/c 20:53, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Great. Then we all agree. This is the page for non-admins to request sanctions; otherwise, Admins act at their discretion in applying such sanctions. All done now. Thank you all for your input. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 20:57, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Nope. See below. ++Lar: t/c 21:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Opinion from one Arbiter, which may or may not have a bearing on the current discussion

(after ec, being on a cell modem sucks) I find this exchange (from here ) enlightening

I asked:

To Carcharoth, who asks why this hasn't been handled via the enforcement process: As far as I can tell, this has not been brought to the Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement page, unless I missed it. If it had been it probably would have been handled, and probably close to how Guy suggested at AN. But the admins that hang there don't tend to cruise other areas looking for things, they wait for reports to be filed. Is that the incorrect approach? Does ArbCom wish that mandate expanded? If so please clarify. That said, Guy's proposal at AN strikes me as a good approach and if ArbCom chooses to deal with this by motion I recommend adoption of it. ++Lar: t/c 13:10, 4 Aril 2010 (UTC)

and Carcharoth replied:

* To Lar: waiting for reports to be filed is the correct approach, but I would suggest someone does file a report at the page you indicated, as any resolution there is likely to be faster than any resolution here. Maybe ask Guy if he would consider refiling there? Hopefully Guy or whoever takes this on will take all the comments here into account (not just the ones they agree with). Carcharoth (talk) 13:24, 4 April 2010 (UTC) (emphasis added ++Lar: t/c 21:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC))

There's always the danger of reading too much into one arb's reply but that seems pretty strong to me. Requests are brought here, and acted on, rather than admins cruising the pages like cops on a beat. Maybe other sanction pages work that way. I don't hang there so I don't know. But this one doesn't and at least one arb seems to think that's the right approach. Again. (and again) if there's consensus for change, I'm all for it. I'd like to hear from LHvU and BozMo who have done more enforcement work than I. ++Lar: t/c 21:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

ArbCom is not involved in this probation. It's a community probation, not an ArbCom one. How do they come in now? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

You could ask them. I think they seem to be involved in everything. Even stuff started elsewhere. The above comment by C is a view, not a mandate. But it's supportive of how things have been done here. I'm done. If the consensus of admins actually doing the enforcing here is that the way that we've been doing the enforcing here is wrong, and needs to change, great, I'll be first to shoot first and ask questions later. I don't see it yet, but maybe the other admins actually doing the enforcing here just haven't spoken? ++Lar: t/c 21:21, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

All he is saying is this page gets faster results than asking for ArbCom to do something, which is true. It has nothing to do with what you've been pushing. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 21:28, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Er, no, that's not how I read what he's saying. I used the term "looking for things" and he said "waiting" is better. What I am "pushing" (there's that rhetoric again, could you try using more neutral terms???) is the status quo here. And I'm not opposed to change. Just want to start from the right place. Hope that helps. As I said, I'm done. ++Lar: t/c 21:35, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Request for clarification re civility

Is This is pathetic, i fix the article, which you should have done instead of slapping tags on it and not i have to revert the fix, how stupid is that? considered acceptable from an editor under civility parole? William M. Connolley (talk) 19:52, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a diff? I'd say it depends on the context, but almost certainly not. ++Lar: t/c 20:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

To say a situation is stupid is hardly uncivil now is it? mark nutley (talk) 21:16, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I was hoping for a reply from someone less biased. How about unfounded (and known to be unfounded) allegations of vandalism? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:22, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Mark: It depends on the context. There are almost always better ways to phrase the matter. Do you have a diff? Or is this an entirely rhetorical example, since WMC hasn't provided one either. A general note, people complaining of civility ought to themselves be on their best behavior. Can you say you are, Mark? Can WMC say he is? I'm dubious

WMC: Less biased than yourself? Than Mark? Who were you referring to? ++Lar: t/c 21:25, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I believe what you did was vandalism, that is my opinion. You believe it was not, that is your opinion. To insert the text you did was a deliberate shot at being wp:disruptive disruptive behaviour is something vandals excel at mark nutley (talk) 21:30, 8 April 2010 (UTC) 21:26, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I have already explained to you it was not vandalism, and directed you to WP:VAND#NOT. Now, if you wish to change our vandalism policy, then feel free to start a discussion, but it is most assuredly not vandalism. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 21:30, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Do YOU have a diff? I bet I'd agree if only I knew what was referred to. ++Lar: t/c 21:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)