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Languages Start‑class Mid‑importance

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To Millosh : Exactly this is genetic clasification not political. The standard Serbo-Croatian language that is based on Shtokavian doesnt exist. It is term that includes all 3 standard languages and all 4 dialects. And Slovenian is another language and not dialect thats why it must be moved on left. Luka Jačov 17:42, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

For Luka

Show me one single country in the world where your virtual "Serbo-Croatian" language exist? How we all knows that thing (I cannot call him language, becouase it is not and it was not) is nationalists-communists product from 1954 in Novi Sad, Serbia so where is your right, historical right to describe that like language? Learn one for all, in history of the Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro we have 3 languages and they are Bosnian, Croat and Serb language. Everything else is fiction.

To others :) Just to note that we were talking over ICQ and IRC and found that classification from Luka's edit of 22:05, 23 September 2005 is acceptable for all of us. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 16:04, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Torlakian

I agree that not only Serbs talk Torlakian, but I would like to hear what is deffinition of "transitional dialect", as well as I would like to see map of this and surrounding dialects. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 00:05, 14 January 2006 (UTC) I must say that Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, and the language of Montenegro is all the same language. Now if you want to make differentiations of that be my guest, but they are all the same language call it what you will..all of you can have a conversation no problem so they are thus mutually intelligle. I dont see Mexicans, Cubans and Argentinians fighting about a language that they all know is the same..even though clear differences exists in both slang and accent, and culture in those countries, like yours. It is still the same language so accept the fact.

Torlakian can be treated as the part of East South Slavic languages.

May I see a source for this claim? According to Pavle Ivić, all of the Torlakian dialect (in Serbia as well as in Macedonia and Bulgaria) belongs to the Western South Slavic group. --George D. Božović (talk) 21:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

According to Stefan Mladenov (Geschichte der Bulgarichen Sprache, Berlin - Leipzig, История на българския език, София 1979, с. 360-362) these dilects are transitional between Bulgarian and Eastern South Slavic languages. Also he comments some similarities with Ucrainian languge. Mladenov considers these dialects as more closer to Bulgarian language, than Serbian (Serbo-Croatian) . Similar are the statements of Benjo Tsonev, Rangel Bozhkov, the russian Afanasii Selishtev etc.--JSimin (talk) 16:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Bring up these points at Template talk:Southslavlang if you want. BalkanFever 06:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Tag?

Is there a reason for the tag still being here? --Latinus 23:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

RE: Slavic Language Greece

The Slavic language sopken in Greece is undoubtedly as South Slavic Language and it therefore should be stated in the article. I know people will say that it is disputable whether it is Dopii (Native), Macedonian or Bulgarian. The users of wikipedia should decide using evidence and post the language up on the South Slavic Lanaguage Page. P m kocovski (talk) 07:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

How about having it at Slavic language (Greece) then? Misplaced Pages is not the place to make up solutions - it just tells the facts without interpreting them in any way (especially in a single-POV way). --Laveol 18:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Would Slavic language (Greek Macedonia) be more appropriate while still having a link to the Slavic Language (greece) as that article does not mention any other forms of slavic languages in greece apart from Macedonia. Whereas the article for SLAVIC LANGUAGE(GREECE) primarily deals with the lanaguage in the Western Macedonia region. Is that a satisfactory proposal? please reply logically :) P m kocovski (talk) 07:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Slovene language: dialects

"While, for example, Slovenes basically speak the same dialect" This sentence is wrong or at least unclear as there are numerous dialects spoken in Slovenia. --Eleassar 12:23, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't seem to make much sense. BalkanFever 12:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Serbian language no što-štokavian, serbian = šta'Bold text'-sebian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.144.143 (talk) 07:38, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear Serbo-Croatian comrades

- Perhaps you've been living under the rock for the last 2 decades, having been indoctrinated by books written by ex-professors of "Serbo-Croatian languages" who graduated "Yugoslavistics" (I've heard there are some active ones with sysop rights on German WP, pushing the "Yugoslav nationality" for every Croat and Bosniak born before the Croatia/B&H declared independence from communist claws, hehe), which for pure political reasons pushed the notion of "Serbo-Croatian dialects" as an alleged "genetic node" in the South Slavic branch. This notion of abundantly exploited for misappropriation of Croat-only cultural heritage, of which there are plenty of remnants in modern Serbian books (like this article on Serbian WP I accidentaly bumped into the other day - bugaršćice by Molise Croats and medieval Čakavian writers like Hektorović as a part of "Serbian epic poetry", what a joke!)

Well, some news for you: There was almost certainly no "Proto-South Slavic" language, and within it - certainly not some ancestor language of Chakavian+Kajkavian+Štokavian+Torlakian. There are no non-trivial isoglosses that encompass South Slavic languages only (and would thus represent common innovation). When speaking of "Croatian dialects" or "Serbian dialects", the geographical designation is the only implied, not some "genetical". Bosniak linguists like also to speak of "Bosnian dialects" as an extension of "Bosniak/Bosnian language", which should in theory be spoken everywhere where Bosniak live, even in Sandžak, but no one cares what they think and like to think anyways..

You say in your edit summary "we can't claim in the genetic section that serbian štokavian is descended from proto-serbian and croatian štokavian is descended from proto-croatian, because it isn't." - that was never claimed anyway. There is no "Proto-Croatian" or "Proto-Serbian" (the latter one maybe in some Serb nationalist book like Srbi - narod najstariji) implied in that hierarchy, because it's not a genetical classification in which hierarchy would imply the "ancestrality", but synchronic overview by regional distribution. Phrases "Serbian language" and "Croatian language", besides the sense of "standard language" have also the sense of "set of dialects on present-day Serbia and Croatia" and where significant diaspora exists whose language belongs to Croatian or Serbian on cultural grounds.

There was also no "Proto-East-Slavic", if you take into account Old Novgorod dialect that didn't exhibit extremely old change of second palatalization that operated in all the other Slavic dialects. There was also no Proto-West-Slavic - but within it, there was possibly (and probably) ancestor language for Leichitic, Czecho-Slovak and Lusatian languages. Similarly for South Slavic branch, there was possibly ancestor language for all Slovenian and Croatian dialects, and also similarly possibly Proto-East-South-Slavic (Bulgarian and Macedonian dialects) - but certianly no "Proto-South-Slavic" and within it some "Serbo-Croatian" node, who would be more unhomogeneous than any other real European language diasystem! The ancestral language of all idioms spoken nowadays by Croats, Serbs, Bosniaks and Montenegrins never existed. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 11:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Genetic, geographic, dialectal

- Zocky, dialectal classification is geographical classification, meaning that "Serbian dialect = dialect of Serbia = dialect of Serbian language", same for Croatian, Bosnian (excepting the last =), Bulgarian, Macedonian and Slovenian. There is no point in listing "Štokavian dialect" as a "West Slavic language", sharing the same level with Chakavian and Kajkavian, these three sharing the same level with "Slovene language", "Bulgarian language" and "Macedonian language".

Either the Slovene, Bulgarian and Macedonian should be expanded to their dialectal subgroups, and thus the notion of national appropriation be completely eliminated, or it should be completely restored within the X-language hierarchy, implying that dialects listed under "X-language" means "dialects within the borders of X" or "belonging to X on the basis of cultural or ethnical šgrounds" (for exogenous speeches).

Also, non-English terms such as jugozapadni istarski, timočko-lužnički etc. should be Anglicised to usual English terms, whatever they are, by someone knowlegable.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ivan Štambuk (talk • contribs) 20:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, please do add (you or anybody who knows enough) dialects of Slovenian, Bulgarian and Macedonian. It's quite possible that some Eastern Slovenian dialects should be classified with Kajkavian (based on phonetics), and that Western Bulgarian and Eastern Macedonian dialects should be grouped together (at least that's what speakers of both tell me). As for a geographical classification, it could have its own list, but I don't think it would be too useful, since it would largely coincide with the sociolinguistic one. Zocky | picture popups 10:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Do either of you know what citation note is meant to say? I'd like to improve the classification section, but Macedonian and Bulgarian don't really have a situation comparable to Što-/Ča-/Kaj-kavian. Template:Macedonian dialects and Template:Bulgarian dialects list all the dialects of Eastern South Slavic, so is the idea just to copy all of them to the article? Slovene dialects is simply a list of narečje ("dialects") and govore ("speeches"), so duplicating the content doesn't seem like a great idea. That article really needs some work, but alas I'm not in a position to offer much. BalkanFever 11:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I translated most of the subdialect terms - generally in English the cities and regions (which give the dialects their names) do not become adjectives, but stay as nouns. Could somebody more knowledgeable in Western South Slavic follow that system for the ones that I left? BalkanFever 12:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I have again reverted this. There is simply no dialectal classification under which Serbian Štokavian and Torlakian belong in one group, and Croatian Štokavian and Čakavian in another. 193.2.132.121 (talk) 22:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

But Western Štokavian is more associated to Čakavian, and Eastern Štokavian with Torlakian. Homogenisation and standardisation have largely eliminated historical differences, but the close association is still quite preserved in e.g. Molise Croatian. That would be pure dialectology. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 11:25, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

To be as auxiliary is also used in Macedonian

In this article states that the verb have is used in Macedonia as a substitute for to be, when forming the perfect. But in Macedonian both verbs are used as auxiliary just in different tenses. You could also say : (Јас) сум видел - (I) am seen - literally, as you could say it in Bulgarian or Serbian - видял съм & видео сам (ја сам видео). I am not an expert in linguistics but I happen to be native speaker of Macedonian, and speak a bit Serbian, Bulgarian, Croatian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.5.170 (talk) 16:48, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

And that is precisely the beauty of Macedonian, that it is so versatile - it uses so many aspects of grammar and lexis that the languages around it only partly use themselves. But i think this article intentionally highlights the differences and bullet-points them as briefly as possible in order for it to be as clear as possible (it does say that "Macedonian largely bases its perfect tense on imam", thereby intentionally hinting that there's more to it than that, without getting too bogged down). By all means, feel free to clarify on the Macedonian language or, better still, the Macedonian grammar pages - the latter already mentions this to a degree - that sum predominates in Eastern Macedonia, while imam predominates in the West. BigSteve (talk) 21:57, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit war?

What this is pell-mell retraction between Ivan Štambuk and the anon? Necessary first here a discussion. Doncsecz 21:49, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Not edit-war, but vandalism undo. Extremist Serb nationalist diaspora has a problem when coming to terms with reality. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 13:08, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Basic dialects of Croatian

. Solely Shtokavian dialect is the basis of Serbian, Bosniac and Montenegrin.
Croatian language is based on three dialects: Shtokavian, Chakavian and Kaykavian dialects. These aren't represented equally, but modern standard Croatian is composed of all these dialects.
Important note: contemporary subdialect of Dubrovnik is considered as part of East Herzegovina subdialect, but they aren't completely the same. However, subdialect of Dubrovnik was for a long period specific dialect of Shtokavian dialect of Croatian language (Vijenac Josip Lisac: Dubrovnik i hrvatska tradicija). Kubura (talk) 00:58, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

About the development of Croatian, and some comparative historical analysis of Croatian language, see the book of Dalibor Brozović, Povijest hrvatskoga književnog i standardnoga jezika", Školska knjiga, Zagreb, 2008., ISBN 978-953-0-60845-0. Kubura (talk) 03:22, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Čakavian and Kajkavian are linguistically different languages by themselves. The only reason why they're treated as "Croatian" is because most of their speakers self-identify as Croats. The term Croatian is at any case todays basically synonymous with standard Croatian, i.e. Neoštokavian. Čakavian and Kajkavian are spoken by uneducated people at rural areas and are only of cursory interest. Dubrovnik's speech today is of course pure Neoštokvian, and the "Dubrovnik dialect" that you speak of has been extinct for centuries. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:03, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

South Slavic contiuum

" South Slavic dialect continuum ". We're speaking about languages, not continuum.
Even the issue of Central South Slavic diasystem is disputed, since one can always created certain continuums from certaing group of Slavic languages, depending on criteria. Every pair of Slavic languages can be classified in certain diasystems, depending on criteria. Kubura (talk) 01:02, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, those are good points, but the word "language" is poorly defined in English. For some people it's a literary register, everything else being a "dialect"; for others, different languages exist where people can't understand each other; and here, language is defined by official standardization. All are legitimate, but we shouldn't present one over the other. For the average English speaker, it's relevant that SCBM are all completely intelligible to each other; we need to be clear what we mean by "language", and when we're using which definition. (Yes, I know that some dialects of Croatian are not easily understood in Belgrade, but then they aren't readily understood in Zagreb either!) kwami (talk) 01:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Kwami, do you speak Croatian or do you speak Serbian so you can speak about those languages??
I know what these women are talking about here . Do you know? Kubura (talk) 01:37, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Montenegrin language

Don't put Montenegrin and Serbian language together. Don't create your original work. Respect Montenegrin linguists. Respect the free will and right of the nation that wants to have and to name its own language. Kubura (talk) 01:05, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

This article is not about politics, it's about languages. If you have specific problems, please bring them up here and we can discuss the best way to resolve them, bearing in mind that this is an encyclopedia. A proposal of "why don't we change the passage XXXX to YYYY, for reasons ZZZZ" is much more likely to be helpful and to be received well, than shouting "don't belittle my people!" without explaining what you find belittling. kwami (talk) 01:14, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, that last edit approached vandalism. You can be WP:blocked for that kind of thing. Again, bring your concerns here for discussion. kwami (talk) 02:18, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Kwamikagami, has the term vandalism changed its meaning? Kwamikagami, do you know anything about the history of Montenegrin culture? Do you speak Montenegrin?
I don't know for you, but I don't want to reduce the Montenegrin culture and to deny their culture from the times before they were conquered by Serbian Empire.
Interesting is that you find that all other contributors have to prove and reference their texts, but you don't apply that same rule for you. What, you're right by default, just because you said so?
Kwamikagami, threat with blocking isn't argumentation. It's the attempt to impose your personal attitude by force/by intimidation of your opponent. Kubura (talk) 03:12, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm saying that you should cooperate with other editors, specify what is wrong, and suggest a solution. If you don't do that, you're only a problem to be overcome, not a contributor who can make a better article. If I understand you correctly, you object to Serbian and Montenegrin being listed in the same line. However, you did not correct that, but damaged the article by reverting other things as well, so it's difficult to know what your point is. The reason S and M are listed together is because they are different standards of what is essentially the same language. After all, speakers understand each other without difficulty. This in no way denies the existence of Montenegrin; if I had wanted that, I would have deleted it altogether. In fact, I have been going around Misplaced Pages adding the Montenegrin language to articles, and reverting editors who delete it! But your immediate response is to imply that I am anti-Montenegrin. I could see putting Macedonian and Bulgarian on the same line as well, and I'll go ahead and to that. But the way it was laid out suggested that Bulg, Mac, Serb, and Mont. are equidistant, which we know is not the case. kwami (talk) 05:15, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I've seen this before your edit:

• Serbian
• Montegrin

And your edit did this:

• Serbian and Montenegrin

We know those games "it's not important, don't make a fuss" but you put those two languages in the same line. Why have you removed that additional line of Montenegrin and put it together with Serbian?
Further, I've enriched the article, but you've blatantly removed all my edits. Including the ones about cultural orientation . You simply took several centuries away from Montenegrin culture. I'm not naive.
You're pushing your limited knowledge and use edit war methods. I've enriched the article with info about new štokavian and old štokavian dialects, Kaykavian with Ikavian speech . But it seems that what you don't know, doesn't exist . So you blatantly revert.
With this , you've insulted Macedonians.
Before your edit was:

• Bulgarian
• Macedonian

After your edit was:

• Bulgarian and Macedonian

You do tend to put languages together, just because you have fixation on that, don't you?
Kwamikagami, this edit of yours is blatant vandalism. See how many referenced lines you've removed, as well as basic stuff about Štokavian dialect that every South Slavic languages enthusiast must know. Kubura (talk) 00:57, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I've told you what is wrong with your edits. If you make problematic edits I will revert them, even if they include some good material. I'm not going to re-write them for you to save the good stuff: That's your job.

I explained why I put the langs together. You are intelligent enough to understand, so please don't pretend you don't. I put Bulg & Mac together because of your objections, as I've said. If you have another proposal for formatting that does not misrepresent the langs the way the old format did, please suggest it. kwami (talk) 01:04, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

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