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Messages below please

Very sorry to hear of your loss, Risker. Bishonen | talk 18:55, 21 March 2010 (UTC).

Thanks, Bishonen. Certainly puts this website into perspective. Risker (talk) 19:27, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Strategic Planning followup

Risker, thanks for your fantastic contributions to last night's strategic planning office hours. There's some followup at the strategy wiki. I hope you'll join us there and continue to share your thoughts! Philippe Beaudette, Facilitator, Strategy Project (talk) 18:54, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

RfPP

Hi Risker, there's been a request on RfPP that Template:Administrator review be unprotected, partly on the grounds that it's not transcluded on many pages. As the protecting admin, do you have any objection? SlimVirgin 05:53, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. SlimVirgin 06:05, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, SlimVirgin. I've downgraded editing protection to semi-protection; Gary King makes a reasonable point, and there should be no issue with knowledgeable community members editing this template. Anything with the word "administrator" in it, however, seems to eventually become a target of certain vandals, so I've left full move protection in place. I've also commented at WP:RFPP. Risker (talk) 06:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree, thanks for sorting it out. SlimVirgin 06:10, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

James Nguyen article

Hello, I want to ask, why cannot an article about James Nguyen (the director of Birdemic: Shock and Terror) cannot be created? He, and the movie in question, was mentioned quite a lot of times in various newspapers. --Have a nice day. Running 22:25, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Is there a guideline on what is to be included in an article?

WARNING: this question has relation with the Arbcom case about Gibraltar, but it has a much wider scope (that's why I post it directly to you). In case you think it should go to the Arbcom workshop (or wait until later) please tell me.

Hi,

I see that you think that one of the main problems in the case is "fact vs opinion". I completely agree, but in a very specific way. Most facts are agreed by almost everybody but we have very different opinions regarding which ones should be included in the article. I have seen that this is something quite common in controversial articles. I have looked for some guidelines on this question, but have not found any that are directly relevant: WP:NOTABILITY explicitly does "not directly limit the content of articles" (it only affects whole stand alone articles) and WP:NPOV deals with balancing viewpoints such as "POV A says that X is white and POV B says that it is black" (not with whether some undisputed fact should be in the article).

The problem with this type of disputes, with only our opinions to guide us, is that they can often lead to accusations of censorship, bad faith, and lots of frustration.

I have proposed some kind of +/- objective benchmark using the number of mentions in reputed secondary sources: if an issue is well over the benchmark set by other issues undisputedly in the article, then it can probably go in; if it is well below, then it's hard to justify its inclusion. I think it would save us a lot of time, "blood, tears, toil and sweat". But maybe it is completely out of place for some reason or maybe there's a guideline that already deals with this (and I have not been able to find it - which is something plausible and then I apologise for wasting your time).

My question: is there a guideline dealing directly with this problem? if there isn't, maybe there should be one?

Thanks. -- Imalbornoz (talk) 07:42, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

User:Altenmann

His work intersected with mine somewhere in the past and I can't remember where. Since he's banned how can I refresh my memory? He's been extremely active since 2003 and going through his contribution log 50 at a time will take hours and hours. I know I corresponded with him on his talk page... He contributed through this account alone more than I will do in my lifetime. I wonder where some editors get the time to do all they do. How can you feed yourself and edit Misplaced Pages as much as some do? I thought he was a decent fellow and guess I'm looking to adjust my regards to him. Should I mourn his banning? Alatari (talk) 08:15, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Here's a quick list of the articles that both you and Altenmann edited. That might help to narrow things down. As to Altenmann's character, I wouldn't venture to say, but the majority of the 150,000 or so edits were very good and improved the encyclopedia. It's just that the problematic ones were problems in a very specific way. Risker (talk) 12:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

That's surprising cross section. I thought he was good at being NPOV and a few of those had pretty contentious sections. I hope that energy he has gets put to good work somewhere. I WISH I had some of that energy. Is he forever banned from Misplaced Pages? Thanks for the response. Alatari (talk) 07:39, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, right now he is community banned, and I anticipate the ban will remain in place for a very extended period (years as opposed to weeks or months), particularly as the socking occurred over at least a 4 year period. Nonetheless, we have seen previously banned users return and do good work after other situations, so I won't profess to say that this is a permanent situation. Risker (talk) 15:49, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Possible Sock puppetry, please help

Dear Risker,

I have strong reasons to believe that User:Assyria 90 and User:Destudent are Sock Puppets of User:Shmayo. Their comment on this page came just minutes apart after more that 18 hours of Shmayo last activity, all to handle a single issue. Those other accounts have been basically idle, and just awoke at the voting stage of some suggestion in the above mentioned page. Please help verifying this issue, and please let me know what you find out.
Best Regards,--Tisqupnaia2010 (talk) 18:57, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi Tisqupnaia2010. If you are concerned about sockpuppetry, your best bet is to request a sockpuppet investigation at the page on that link. That will allow an independent, non-arbitrator checkuser to consider the appropriate course of action. thanks. Risker (talk) 19:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Risker

Hi Risker -- I'm concerned about the page protection of the Anwar al-Awlaki page in its current state. Since Causa upped the hostility by blocking me, I've not edited that page. As pointed out by others, he has taken a different approach and made 75 edits. Also as pointed out by sysops and others, a number of his edits are controversial--examples are in diffs at the AN/I. I would like to address them, but have waited till we got AN/I input to do so (which we now have). The circumstances make the present form of the article a poor one to protect. Thoughts? Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 19:01, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

First, the BLP issues must be addressed. You are, of course, free to identify what you consider to be "controversial" edits made by Causa sui on the talk page of the article, and to suggest alternatives. But I will be reviewing the article as it stands now with a fine-toothed comb later tonight to ensure that every source actually says what is attributed to it, and that every attribution is actually properly sourced. I'll be removing BLP violations through protection, as permitted by policy, should I find any.

The BLP policy doesn't just apply to nice guys like Mr. Siegenthaler, it also applies to articles about tyrants and villains as well, and we absolutely must be consistent in its application, no matter how despicable the subject is. Risker (talk) 19:09, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

• Oh, well… there you go. I didn’t know that you had the unique wisdom and ability to accomplish what the rest of us were struggling with. By all means. Reserve the right to edit the article for yourself, Risker; that’s what Cuasa sui was trying to do but rather failed at. Greg L (talk) 22:12, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

• I noticed the curious similarity as well.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:16, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the similarity is because we actually do understand the policies involved. Just for a moment, think about whether we would be having this discussion if an anonymous government official from Cambodia or China or Iran was to make a similar allegation about, say, Billy Graham or the Archbishop of Canterbury, or even a controversial minister from a local New York or Sydney church; even if it was reported in the most reliable source from that country, I am 99% certain it wouldn't even be considered for addition to the article, let alone have people complaining about admin abuse if it was removed. Risker (talk) 22:22, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Pretty to think so, anyway. Greg L (talk) 22:34, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

• The claim would be more surprising in that case. This distinction is clearly stated in the guidelines. That is a distinction with an enormous, and highly relevant difference. As I'm sure you know, given your understanding of the policies. But yes -- if Billy were named by our highest level RS source to be killing Americans, of course I would support the same treatment.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:18, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Erm, newspapers are nowhere near our "highest level source". Peer-reviewed books and journals top them out by a long shot. Let's not call a sow's ear a silk purse, please. Risker (talk) 23:22, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

• Well then… We will all wait with bated breath for the dust drifting on the horizon to develop into the dramatic image of Risker riding her galloping steed towards the camera (extreme telephoto view and stop-action playback speed) as she rescues the article all the heck by herself this evening (using her Unique Insight Into BLP Policy Powers®™©). The Wikipedian world watches and waits for the currently locked-down Anwar al-Awlaki article to be unlocked and delivered unto the huddled masses. Greg L (talk) 01:52, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

• @Risker--The above conversation heightens my concern that we may be talking apples and oranges, and (to mix metaphors) I think it would be helpful to get on the same page. I haven't seen you quote the precise language you have in mind from BLP, and at this point to fully appreciate your comment that would be helpful. Further, as to your comment about books ... I don't think that you are saying we must under the policy wait for a book to be published. Or a journal. And clearly those are among the highest-level RS newspapers in the world. (I'm confused by your reference to them as a "sow's ear") But as you will see on the AA talk page, I've asked for you to be clear there as to what language in the policy you are referring to. I've read it and re-read it, and could use your help.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:19, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Epeefleche, I'm heading to bed now and will be unavailable pretty well all day tomorrow, so it may be 18-20 hours or so before I am able to respond to you fully. I have spent the last few hours reading over the article for a first impression, and then doing a focused review of the first part of the lead (you can see my notes at User:Risker/Anwar). You will see in my notes that I have not identified any further egregious BLP violations at this stage, mostly issues of appropriate source selection (you might really want to think about whether that Sperry book is necessary, it reads like a spy thriller instead of a good reference source, and has quite a bit of supposition in it despite the numerous footnotes). Quickly, though, newspapers will never be as sterling a reference source as a well-researched, peer-reviewed book; they are written contemporaneously, often when significant facts are unavailable, and frequently depend on sources who speak anonymously only under circumstances of plausible deniability (e.g., one does not seem to find any government official who will go "on record" with the quote I removed earlier today). I do not think that this subject should wait until someone writes a book; while there may not be evidence that directly links the subject to terrorist plots, there is obviously a noteworthy proportion of those who have been caught in terroristic activities who have studied his teachings. I have pretty high standards for notability, and AA easily meets them; there is place for an article about him here. Nonetheless, it is a BLP about a highly controversial figure, and such biographical articles demand our best effort to ensure proper balance, the most optimal sourcing, and pruning to exclude anything that is more properly covered elsewhere (e.g., the sections on the various alleged terrorists can probably be shrunk, as there are articles about them all that go into far greater detail). I fully expect that the issues with this article can be worked out satisfactorily over the next few weeks at most.

The one thing that you might want to start looking at closely are any direct quotes that are in the article, to ensure that they are attributed to an identified person. If not, and if it is attributed to only one source, then it probably needs to come out. Keep in mind that the thrust (although not the specificity) of the sentence I removed still exists in the article right now; the problem has always been the highly inflammatory direct quote from an unidentified person. Risker (talk) 06:19, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I know you're busy, so just a cut and past of the relevant passages from the guideline would give me something to look at while you are tied up over the next day. The language that supports deletion of the quote by the American official, for example, and your view expressed immediately above with regard to quotes. Also, when you come back, I would ask that you look at the article before Causa's edits two weeks ago, and look at what he deleted which was fully supported by RSs. Balance here means balance in accordance with the balance in the RSs. Not that we have a balance that is half "he is sweet" and half "he is not sweet".--Epeefleche (talk) 06:32, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

• Hey Risker. We're missing you over here. Are you coming back? :-) --causa sui (talk) 15:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Haven't forgotten, unfortunately was tied up with real-world issues the past few days and have barely had a chance to log in. I tend to give priority to the work that will pay my internet bill, if you know what I mean. Tomorrow looks favourable. Risker (talk) 06:18, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Just so you know, I've spent several hours today reading the various references from end to end, trying to derive the most benefit from them. There are duplicates, incidentally, and there don't seem to be as many non-US ones as I would hope, given the international flavour of the subject. Risker (talk) 07:06, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

FYI

You might want to weigh in here. --causa sui (talk) 15:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Ping

Risker -- I have posted something new at Response to Risker:

I wonder what distinguishes the Tang Dynasty "clarification" thread from "moving the goalposts"? If this is not "moving the goalposts", please explain it to those who have volunteered to explain such things to me.

Ping.

Risker -- Now what? Cui bono?

• This whatever-it-is is indistinguishable from punishment; and I'm left wondering what precisely am I being punished for?
• What recidivism is thus prevented?

How are the volunteer mentors and others in the community expected to construe this thread? What are you going to do? --Tenmei (talk) 16:23, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I look forward to your further comments; and I continue to hope for action. --Tenmei (talk) 20:49, 26 April 2010 (UTC)