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Revision as of 17:40, 20 January 2006

Funding of Castle Construction

So, who is right here?

I wrote: Second, he funded the construction of his famous fairy-tale castles from his family's private property, not from the state budget.

but User:Krupo added: Ironically, despite nearly bankrupting Bavaria with his construction projects, the palaces have now turned into profitable tourist attractions.

Well, I only remembered having read it somewhere the first way. So, Krupo, are you sure about your variant? Simon A. 11:23, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I just visited the place, and what I wrote is correct if the people I spoke to are to be believed. Here is the more complicated explanation: Ludwig borrowed heavily to build his castles. Unfortunately, the guarantors of his debts were his family members. I may have stretched things by making it sound like the Bavarian nobility is one and the same as the state, but what I can attest to is the fact that some very powerful people were upset with how he was doing things. Unfortunately what I'm not certain about is the connection between the nobility and the state itself during that part of the 19th century. I'm going to change "Bavaria" to "Bavaria's royal family" immediately, which should help. Krupo 00:14, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, this way, it makes sense. Maybe it is formally correct to equate the royal family with the state, but it misses the point from the view of ordinary people. That's because for them, Ludwig's building enterprises actually flushed money back from the treasury of the royals back into their pockets. It was mainly the workers in the region who carried out all the work and got paid for it. Simon A. 11:29, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The only problem with that approach, of course, is what happens when he's flushing money he doesn't have - the debts, and their effect on the state. I know little about that last topic, but I suppose it's not too critical to tying up this part of the article, eh? :) Krupo 20:33, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

Lieutenant-Colonel Washington

Who was KARL THEODOR Freiherr von WASHINGTON, Lieutenant-Colonel, assumed murder of King Ludwig II. of Bavaria?
see:
1.: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/8171/GeorgeWashington.html
2.: http://www.camerama.demon.nl/was/
3.: http://www.internet-erding.de/notzing/chronik.HTM
Dietmar 20:33 Apr 15, 2005

I removed

• It is alleged in 2005 that Ludwig was murdered by Lieutenant-Colonel Washington.

This was added by the same anon who wrote the above paragraph. The web references don't seem to support this conspiracy theory and the name Washington does not appear in the German Misplaced Pages. Let's get some more documentation before we restore this.RJFJR 22:04, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

I just checked the talk page in the German wikipedias and it does have the name Washington on it (several times). My german isn't good enough to tell what it says without a lot of time with a dictionary.RJFJR 22:08, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Lieutenant-Colonel Baron von Washington was an aide-de-camp who was among the delegation sent from Munich to Hohenschwangau on 8 June to take King Ludwig into custody. (The others in the delegation were Baron Krafft von Crailsheim (minister of the royal house and of foreign affairs, and a joint legal guardian appointed for the king), Count Maximilian von Holnstein, Baron R. von Malsen (grand master of the king's household), Count Clemens von Toerring-Jettenbach (another joint legal guardian for the king), Karl von Rumpler, and Dr. Bernhard von Gudden.) By most accounts, Baron Washington was the man who found the bodies of King Ludwig and Dr. Gudden after they drowned. He is known to have made the King's pocketwatch, which suggested a problematic time of death, "disappear".- Nunh-huh 01:31, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Where is the murderer? See http://www.erzabtei.de/html/Aktuelles/Projekte/Ludwig/Leseproben/Leseprobe2.pdf. See also the original telegrams of Lieutenant-Colonel Baron von Washington: http://www.shopping-kl.de/Aktuell/Geschichten/Ludwig/Ludwig-7.html . See an interview with King Ludwig II of Bavaria: http://members.telering.at/Ludwig_II/Vanderpool.htm . Lieutenant-Colonel Karl Theodor Baron von Washington was a very great enemey of King Ludwig II. He was the son of Jakob Baron von Washington (Baron=Freiherr, Jakob=James), who promoted to lieutenant general—the same rank held by George Washington. --Dietmar 22:30, 7 May 2005

"Mad King" Ludwig

Referring to him as "Mad King" Ludwig is isn't NPOV, calling someone a "Mad King" is a perjorative term and I request that it be changed to "Mentally Challenged Person of Royal Birthage as Head of State".

Sorry, that's what they called him. Isn't it terrible that people were so politically incorrect in those days? Jayjg 22:40, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I have never heard of him called "Ludwig the Mad" only "Mad King Ludwig". I amg changing it to that, all in quotes.-- Hugh7 22:57, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

"Mentally Challenged Person of Royal Birthage as Head of State".

the above sounds extremely ridiculous. :-D

His sexuality

Must we be so coy? In "The Dream King" Wilfred Blunt makes it very clear from Ludwig's diaries and notes to himself that his attraction to Kainz and Hornig (and Wagner?) was sexual, and that he sometimes acted on his feelings, felt very guilty about it, and promised never to do it again - until the next time. Or does all of Bavaria revert it if we put that in? -- Hugh7 22:57, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, Blunt's book was considered highly speculative. And it must be remembered that ways of speaking back then, even words themselves, held a very different meaning than they do today. Saying that you loved someone back then could mean something totally different than it does now.

However, if you wanted to include something that was well-cited within this article, it might remain. But I'm afraid that any mention at all carries the risk of it being reverted, due to its provacative subject matter and the public image that Ludwig holds. - Maaya 02:16, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

The original diary page: Am 16ten über Heiterwang, Lermos (Rast), Partenkirchen. - Über das 18te Jahr gelesen, um 11 fort über Walchensee, Urfeld, S.h.R.H.H., Mondschein, Kesselberg, - Kochelsee, Penzberg, in die Stadt - (horribile dictu) - Aussöhnung mit Richard, theurer Meiner Seele Am 21. dem Todes-Tage des reinen u. erhabenen König Ludwig XVI. symbolisch allegorisch letzte Sünde, durch jenen Sühnungstod u. jene Catastrophe vom 15.d.M. geheiligt, gereinigt von allem Schlamm, ein reines Gefäß v. Richards Liebe und Freundschaft. - In den Fluten wird der Ring geweiht, geheiligt, verleiht dem Träger Riesenstärke, Entsagungskraft. - Kuß heilig u. rein ein einziges Mal. Ich der König d. 21. Jan. 1872 - Vivat Rex et Richardus in aeternum - pareat malum in aeternum 3.Febr - Hände kein einziges Mal mehr hinab, bei schwerer Strafe! Y.E.R. - Im Jan. Richard hier dreimal bei mir, gesungen, Residenztheater (Dekoration Louis XIV), am 31. Hofball, Ritt mit R. in Nymphenburg (Amalienburg). Am 28. Lohengrin! - Doch bei dem Ringe selbst und mein Gedenken De par le Roy - Bei unserer Freundschaft sei es geschworen, auf gar keinen Fall mehr vor 3ten Juni ... 1. Juni endgültig letzter Sündenfall, 2 Monate 3 Wochen vor 41. Denken Sie daran, Sire, denken Sie daran, denken Sie daran, künftig nie mehr, von nun an künftig nie mehr!! Künftig nie mehr!!! Geschworen im Namen des großen Königs und die die machtvolle Hilfe des Erlösers anrufend. Linderhof, Louis Auch der Küsse streng enthaltend. Ich schwöre im Namen des Königs der Könige. Alfons 7. Juni (Book: Das geheime Tagebuch König Ludwigs II. von Bayern : 1869 - 1886 / erl. und kommentiert von Siegfried Obermeier², München 2000, ISBN: 3-485-00862-1) Alfons Weber is saying:The king never showed a trace of mental disorder (Der König zeigte niemals eine Spur von Geisteskrankheit), in: , and Josef Kainz - a woman hero - is writing: The king showed the border hair-sharp, which he wanted to pull. (Der König zeigte haarscharf die Grenze, die er gezogen wissen wollte.), in:

Dietmar 20:03, Jan 11, 2006

"And it must be remembered that ways of speaking back then, even words themselves, held a very different meaning than they do today. Saying that you loved someone back then could mean something totally different than it does now."

Totally true (the oldest homophobic chestnut), but a facile argument. The verbal expression of human sexual desire remains a constant. See similar letters from known sexually active same sex lovers of the period.

"But I'm afraid that any mention at all carries the risk of it being reverted, due to its provacative subject matter and the public image that Ludwig holds."

The most patently ridiculous statement of all.

Engleham

User Engleham does not know anything. He even cannot write the correct spelling of the name "Alfons Weber". At this time, there was another writing in Germany (love, kisses, and so on by everybody, even another hand-writing: . Even the publisher of the book "The secret diary" (see above) is writing: Note: In my opinion Ludwig was not a homosexual. (Note: An dieser Stelle sei angemerkt, daß nach Meinung des Herausgebers eine eindeutige homosexuelle Beziehung des Königs auch zu Richard Hornig nicht bestand.(page 26))

Dietmar, 13:30, Jan 14, 2006

My revert

It is not homophobic to remove unvalidated material. Please cite your sources. -Maaya 04:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Engleham- I do not wish to get into an edit war here. Please cite your sources or I will revert it back again. If you have no sources, please say so. Otherwise, it will be a simple thing to put them in. -Maaya 03:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

If I may butt in, I don't think there can be any doubt that Ludwig II "had a succession of handsome male favourites, including his chief equerry Richard Hornig, Hungarian theatre star Josef Kainz, and courtier Alfons Weber." There is some room to debate whether Ludwig had any sexual or romantic interest in these men, but they were all good-looking young men and when they were in his good graces Ludwig certainly did treat them as "favourites". Any decent biography of Ludwig should mention this, and it's well supported by surviving period letters. KGiles 06:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the input! I also agree that he probably did, but I merely wish to see some references. I have been watching this page for some time, and any time unreferenced potentially controversial material is put in, the article gets cut to pieces in a series of edit wars. I am not against having it in the article, I merely wish to have references. -Maaya 06:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll echo Engleham's recommendation below of the Blunt, King, and McIntosh biographies, which along with Desmond Chapman Huston's 1955 Bavarian Fantasy make up the major English-language works on Ludwig II. (I personally think Blunt's book is the best.) All of these books discuss, for instance, Ludwig's friendship with actor Josef Kainz. I don't think it's really necessary to provide a cite for the fact that Ludwig showed Kainz special favor (giving him expensive gifts, inviting him along for a vacation in Switzerland) as this is well documented, historically undisputed, and well-known within the field. But it probably would be helpful to expand the list of biographical references in the article. I can do a bit of work on that myself. KGiles 15:51, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

It is a bad statement dead humans to slander. Many authors - who did have no notion - wanted only to make money with their books. It does not exist hundreds, but thousands of books concerning King Ludwig II. It would be a better idea to select only well investigated books. Like that Richard Hornig was not his short term favourite, but his secretary, in the years 1867 - 1885! Ludwig loved the poetry and the poets, and nothing different one. For above assumptions the smallest proof does not exist in the diary!!. If someone want to write such a sentence, put out the word "diary", or better: write more sentences! We write today the year 2006, and still wrong statements are affirmed. And with falsifications of a prostitute called Hildegard Rixinger to enter is more than ridiculous. Quotation: "This woman had falsified the signature of the king. (Dieser Freundin bediente er sich außerdem, um durch Fälschungen der Unterschrift des Königs erhöhte Summen von der Kabinettskasse zu erlangen)", in: Why isn't a better idea someone occupied dearer and more meaningfully with Lieutenant-Colonel Washington (see above), who was staying in castle Berg in the death-night, together with King Ludwig? --Dietmar 12:00, 20 January 2006

>Please cite your sources or I will revert it back again.

Why don't you practise the courtesy of doing some basic historical reading first? No, that might be too much to expect! Absolutely NO biography of Ludwig published in English by a reputable historian in the last 50 years disputes he struggled with homosexuality. See for example The Swan King: Ludwig II of Bavaria by Christopher McIntosh, The Mad King: The Life and Times of Ludwig II of Bavaria by Greg King, or The Dream King, Ludwig II of Bavaria by Wilfrid Blunt. Indeed, you can do a word search within in the text of the first one I've mentioned on Amazon for 'homosexual' and read the references if you're so bone ignorant. The only people disputing Ludwig's homosexuality are a minority of whacked out German royalists for whom he remains a hero who can't be "sullied with the taint of unnatural desire". -- Engleham

Not everyone who comes to wikipedia has read those books. I am not disputing the fact that he was possibly homosexual. I am merely asking you to please cite your sources. If you cite your sources and others revert it, then I will help you change it back.

I also do not appreciate you calling me 'bone ignorant' or a 'whacked out German royalist'. Please watch your tone as I have been nothing but civil towards you.

Maaya 15:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you all work out some agreement here before making any more changes to the article. Repeatedly reverting each other doesn't go anywhere and will just get people blocked. Let me point out that the three-revert rule is not a license to revert three times in every twenty-four hours. Tom Harrison 15:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

>I am merely asking you to please cite your sources.

I cite the sources (see above), and then you state "Not everyone who comes to wikipedia has read those books". WTF? Let me try this again for the final time: see The Swan King: Ludwig II of Bavaria by Christopher McIntosh pp 155-157, and you can read it yourself online. Go to this link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1860648924/ then type 'homosexual in the text search box, and look for references on the pages I've listed. McIntosh himself cites other sources. I've previously listed specific textural references but they've been deleted. What I am reverting is a suitably qualified reference to his homosexuality -- that any mention of such is being aggressively deleted here when the fact is so thoroughly supported by reputable historians is merely shameful and reprehensible bigotry. -- Engleham

You have to cite them within the article itself, not just here because not everyone who reads the article knows that there's more information on the talk page. See the wikipedia page on citing sources, particularly the Footnotes section. You don't have to worry about adding in the references anymore because KGiles already did that for you. Just put in footnotes to your edits and I will help you revert anyone who tries to take it out. By putting footnotes pointing to the references from where, exactly, you got the information, then there will be no reason for anyone to remove your edits. -Maaya 16:34, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I think Engleham needs to cool off a bit, but I agree with him that there doesn't seem to be any real reason to cite the claim that Ludwig II showed Kainz, et al., special favor. Which bio should the footnote point to when every one of them discusses Ludwig's gifts to Kainz, his personal invitations to have Kainz visit the royal castles and attend special theater performances, and their holiday together in Switzerland? They even had their photo taken together at the end of the trip! I'd expect a cite for a claim that Ludwig and Kainz were actually lovers (or that Ludwig and anyone were actually lovers), but I don't see that this is necessary for the simple claim that Kainz was, for a time, a favorite of the king. KGiles 17:04, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I am glad to remember this very good sentence coming from the article: "It was first alleged in 1887 by his enemies (!!) in the government that Ludwig was a homosexual and that he developed mental problems after repeatedly trying to suppress his desires unsuccessfully." It is the same matter by authors. I am giving here only one example: A criminal statement by enemy author Wilfrid Blunt: Blunt is saying it is criminal (!!!) to say, the girl-friend of King Ludwig "Sophie" would know the man called "Hanfstaengl" (Blunt bezeichnet es als "gemeine Verleumdung" und eines der niederträchtigsten Gerüchte, Sophie habe ein Verhältnis mit dem Hofphotografen gehabt; german page 86 ) But what is the truth?? See here: It would be a good idea to show in such a way the documentary proofs. ---Dietmar 17:17, 20 January 2006

A friend is inserting a footnoted reference. If this is reverted, I shall presume there is no further point in making rational discussion, and shall post details of this dispute for the users of the net's leading gay message board so they can take it over, which I'm sure they'll delight in. And this is for Dietmar: if you're going to try to delete references to Ludwig's homosexuality and make ridiculous arguments that he was straight, I suggest you do it on the German version of Misplaced Pages, as your command of English is so poor you're only making yourself a comic figure here. -- Engleham