Misplaced Pages

"Every child born of a Frenchman in a foreign country is French". This might be true from the point of view of French bureaucrats of the time. But that doesn't necessarily mean that a person born to a French father in a foreign country and raised in that country really feels/felt French. Or to put it differently if a person doesn't feel French then even 20 "codes Napoleon" won't make him French.  Dr. Loosmark  13:30, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

That person may also be entitled to a dual citizenship, as it may be granted to that person by the state it was born in. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:01, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

That person being born in Poland of a French father, having also been raised in Poland (and no one here is denying him his deep feeling of Polishness or his Polish nationality), that person, namely Frédéric Chopin, could have chosen another country to live in, England, for instance, but he chose France where he lived the entire second part of his life, eighteen years. He even went as far as using the French version of his baptismal names (which, by the way, he had to do as French nationals could, at the time, be given only French names) getting a French passport (several, in fact) with no one having to twist his wrist to do it, thus recognising the fact that he was French, as it was on the basis of his being born of a Frenchman in Poland thus being French, fact that the obtaining of his first French passport was confirming. That very same person lived in a Paris that he adored, lived among French people who adored him, spent summers in the French country home of a French woman among friends of all nationalities as guests; that French-fashion conscious person was one of the most elegant men in France, and when that person, namely Chopin, was on his deathbed, he was surrounded by close friends, French & Polish, and even from the other side of the English Channel. France gave him one of the most grandiose national funerals ever and the crowd was too big to describe who took him to his tomb at the Père Lachaise cemetery. Frédéric Chopin's love of France & the French is expressed in many of his letters.

--Frania W. (talk) 17:05, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Hardly surprising that Chopin, when forced to remain abroad in the aftermath of the Polish November 1830 Uprising, should choose to do so in France, which was then the center of European and western culture. Many other members of Poland's Great Emigration at the time did the same, including Chopin's friend and Poland's pre-eminent Romantic poet, Adam Mickiewicz, who had no French ancestry.

And if Chopin was honored in life and in death, it was principally as a great artist, and not just by Frenchmen. Nihil novi (talk) 20:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Not forced to remain abroad according to this source, , The Cambridge companion to Chopin, Cambridge University Press 1995 page 6, "Life in France agreed with him and he quickly put to the back of his mind any thoughts of returning to his homeland (he could easily have done so when the Czar offered the first of many amnesties in 1833.)" Novickas (talk) 00:52, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Sure, he (and the other members of Poland's Great Emigration) could have returned — had they not cared about expressing themselves freely. Nihil novi (talk) 01:31, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, nonetheless, the fact that he was French was of much help to him because it allowed him to remain in France as a Frenchman, not as a political refugee.

If a French passport was helpful to him, then he did wisely, making use of it. Nihil novi (talk) 01:31, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Nihil, I wish that you would stop trying to prove to me that Chopin was a Polish-Polish Pole. I know of his attachment to the land of his birth as much as you do, but I also know that he was also French. And he knew it too.

--Frania W. (talk) 00:01, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

It was Chopin's French girlfriend, George Sand, and French biographer Louis Énault who described him as "more Polish than Poland." Nihil novi (talk) 04:21, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

As has been pointed out before, at the time she made that comment Poland was Russian (with German and Austrian bits). Varsovian (talk) 18:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

So? Sand wasn't addressing the political geography, but the culture, of Poland. Nihil novi (talk) 20:33, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting. Do you have a WP:RS which talks about what Sand was addressing with that comment? Or is your analysis WP:OR? Varsovian (talk) 22:41, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

George Sand would not have been so stupid as to compare the "Polishness" of an individual with that of a people who had supposedly ceased to exist, as you have suggested, merely because their sovereignty had been destroyed. Nor would Louis Énault have done so:

"Chopin, in spite of spending half of his life in Paris, remained characteristically Polish and was a 'lonely soul.' Louis Énault, a biographer, said: 'The Slavs lend themselves gladly but never give themselves; Chopin is more Polish than Poland.'" Marion Bauer, Music Through the Ages: A Narrative for Student and Layman, p. 248. Nihil novi (talk) 01:07, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the comments about Énault, I was actually asking about Sand. I conclude that you have no such sources regarding what she was addressing. Varsovian (talk) 15:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Could somebody add a courtesy note about this discussion to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_France#Chopin.27s_nationality_and_citizenship (also doubles as the France regional noticeboard)? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:01, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion

I'd like to suggest that editors post here their versions of the lead. Once we see what is actually disputed, as far as wording in the lead is concerned, it may be easier to reach a consensus - I see that the discussion seems to veer off in directions that are somewhat off-topic, as far as lead is concerned.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Lead as of now

Note: first two paragraphs only as I don't think the third one is in any dispute. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Frédéric François Chopin, in Polish Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin (the surname is pronounced in French, and usually /ˈʃoʊpæn/ in English; 1 March 1810 – 17 October 1849), was a Polish composer and virtuoso pianist of French-Polish parentage, who is considered to have been one of the great masters of Romantic music. Chopin was born in the Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw to a French-expatriate father and Polish mother, and was considered a child-prodigy pianist. Following the Russian suppression of the Polish November 1830 Uprising, Chopin settled in France as part of the Polish Great Emigration. In Paris he supported himself as a composer and piano teacher, giving few public performances. After romantic involvements with several Polish women, from 1837 to 1847 he carried on a relationship with the French female novelist George Sand. For the greater part of his life Chopin suffered from poor health; he died in Paris, aged 39, of pulmonary tuberculosis.

I think it does a pretty good job as it is. It's certainly true that there are people whose Polishness has been exaggerated on Misplaced Pages and elsewhere by overzealous Poles, but with the lead phrased as it is here, I honestly don't think Chopin is one of those cases.--Kotniski (talk) 19:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Nihil novi (talk) 19:45, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

In the second passport it needs to be mentioned that his mother was Polish-French. Chopin was born to French parents (as his passport tells us). Varsovian (talk) 18:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by that; but the passport is presumably following the French legal definition of "French", which as we keep pointing out, is of very little interest to us. In fact the very fact that legally his mother may have been "French", while no reasonable source identifies her as such, is good evidence in itself that the world is not interested in people's nationality in the sense that you and others are trying to impose here.--Kotniski (talk) 18:17, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

But the world has always been interested in C's nationality; do you disagree that Norman Davies is a good enough source for that? "Strong emotions have also been generated in interpretation of the works of F. Chopin (1810-49). Although the French have been slightly less proprietorial towards Chopin than the Germans towards Copernicus, the same debates and disagreements concerning the extent and significance of his 'Polishness' have regularly recurred". Novickas (talk) 18:43, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

What one thinks may depend on which Briton one wishes to believe. Chopin's English biographer Arthur Hedley, quoted in our article's "Nationalism" section, writes in Encyclopaedia Britannica that Chopin "found within himself and in the tragic story of Poland the chief sources of his inspiration. The theme of Poland's glories and sufferings was constantly before him, and he transmuted the primitive rhythms and melodies of his youth into enduring art forms." Nihil novi (talk) 20:47, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Also (if the quote above is all Davies says on the matter) he seems to be talking about interpretation of Chopin's works rather than the man's nationality or "citizenship".--Kotniski (talk) 06:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

That's right. Nihil novi (talk) 06:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

A great deal of Chopin historiography revolves around his ethnicity directly in relation to his work, so it's hard to separate the two. From Music in Chopin's Warsaw, Halina Goldberg, Oxford University Press, 2008, p.6: "The demand for unambiguous Polishness, as defined by the successive "-isms," played a role in several aspects of Chopin historiography." From Maja Trochimczyk's entry in The age of Chopin: interdisciplinary inquiries, Indiana University Press, 2004, p.291: "In the process of asserting Chopin's Polish identity at the beginning of the twentieth century, an awareness of his double cultural and personal background (my emphasis) was replaced by a belief in his fully Polish origins." On a general note, apart from the Polish-French in the lead issue (which I'm going to withdraw from - clearly a time sink and I would like to think that people read entire articles rather than stop after the first two sentences), I'd like to see the article move towards more modern sources and interpretations, other than the occasional quote from a notable contemporary. I presume I don't need to justify that. Novickas (talk) 14:49, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what is meant by the "second passport" (second paragraph)? But I note that nobody is proposing any changes to the lead. Can we assume that as far as the lead is concerned, the current version is an acceptable compromise? Are there any issues about the body that need to be discussed? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:29, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The lead: as it reads right now, although there is an improvement by recognising his "French-Polish parentage", is not 100 per cent what I would like to agree to, because Frédéric Chopin was both Polish and French. The problem I am encountering is finding a source other than Langavant, since what he wrote is not in a book form and cannot, supposedly, be used, although we also have the 1804 Code Napoléon itself, in French & with the English translation found online, which I gave somewhere above in previous section. I also realise that we must reach consensus, which, if I understand, would not set the lead in stone. If someone ever comes with properly sourced material RE Chopin's French nationality then the lead could be rectified.

Britannica Macropædia - Knowledge in Depth, 15th edition, 1997, as well as Britannica Encyclopædia Britannica 2009 edition online have Chopin as Polish-French:

• Frédéric François Chopin Polish-French, born of a French father...

Langavant is not the only author who has demonstrated that Chopin was French at birth, but it is difficult to find all the authors. French pianist Alfred Cortot in his book Aspects de Chopin, chapter: Ce qu'il doit à la France, p. 110 Albin Michel, wrote: "... sa citoyenneté française authentiquée légalement par un passeport...", referring to the 1837 passport. ("His French citizenship legally authenticated by a passport.") Pianist Maria Gondolo della Riva Masera in her book Frédéric Chopin, Aperçus biographiques (ed. Michel de Maule, 2010) calls Chopin Franco-Polish

Finally, at Misplaced Pages Reliable Sources, I found this: "When discussing legal texts, it is more reliable to quote from the text, appropriately qualified jurists or textbooks than from newspaper reporting."

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_source_examples#Law

So if it is "more reliable to quote from the text", why can't the 1804 Code Napoléon, with the short sentence A child born... is French, be used as a source? It certainly would simplify matters.

--Frania W. (talk) 02:52, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Because the Code Napoleon isn't the subject of the article. We are not discussing legal texts in this article - and even if we find some reliable source somewhere that make this link between French law and Chopin's situation, it still wouldn't belong in the lead, but as a detail somewhere in the article. The biographical sources that you quote which describe him as Polish-French/Franco-Polish etc. are of much more significance - if we can conclude that there are a significant number of them relative to the number that describe him simply as Polish, then we could try reflecting both viewpoints in the lead (I once suggested "...a Polish (sometimes described as Polish-French) composer...") --Kotniski (talk) 06:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

It has never been my intention to discuss the Code Napoléon in the lead, or make it "the subject of the article", but to have it recognised beforehand as a proper source to support those who say that Chopin was a French national at birth, together with being Polish, and having such stated in the lead: Polish-French.

As for finding a nearly equal number of sources describing Chopin Polish-French vs only Polish, this is impossible because for over a century the Poles have taken over Chopin to the point that the simple fact of bringing out the possible French nationality of Chopin has been taken by the Poles as an attempt to kidnap a national hero.

Without going back to the whole unending debate, I would like to mention again that several articles on famous people mention a double nationality with no outcry, no request for support by secondary or tertiary sources: Einstein, Rubinstein, Werner von Braun, Cortot, Yves Montand, or Guillaume Apollinaire, born a Pole in Italy, who became French at the age of 36, and given as a "French poet, playwright and art critic" as a matter of fact, with not even the batting of an eye.

What I am saying is that Frédéric Chopin is being subjected to a well-orchestrated treatment applied to no one else in Misplaced Pages.

--Frania W. (talk) 12:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Dear Frania. I am having trouble figuring out exactly what change you'd like to make. Could you post a proposed new version of a sentence (paragraph) in your own new section and add a justification below? If you could put it side by side with the current version that would be best. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Choices for lead

=Lead as it appears now=:

Frédéric François Chopin, in Polish Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin (the surname is pronounced in French, and usually /ˈʃoʊpæn/ in English; 1 March 1810 – 17 October 1849), was a Polish composer and virtuoso pianist of French-Polish parentage. He was one of the great masters of Romantic music. Chopin was born in the Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw to a French-expatriate father and a Polish mother, and was a child-prodigy pianist and composer. Following the Russian suppression of the Polish November 1830 Uprising, Chopin settled in France as part of the Polish Great Emigration. In Paris he supported himself as a composer and piano teacher, giving few public performances. After romantic involvements with several Polish women, from 1837 to 1847 he carried on a relationship with the French novelist, Aurore Dupin, better known by her pseudonym, George Sand. For the greater part of his life Chopin suffered from poor health; he died in Paris, aged 39, of pulmonary tuberculosis.

=Second possibility=:

Frédéric François Chopin, in Polish Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin (the surname is pronounced in French, and usually /ˈʃoʊpæn/ in English; 1 March 1810 – 17 October 1849), was a Polish born composer and virtuoso pianist of Polish-French parentage. He was one of the great masters of Romantic music. Chopin was born in the Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw to a French-expatriate father and Polish mother, and was a child-prodigy pianist and composer. Following the Russian suppression of the Polish November 1830 Uprising, Chopin settled in France as part of the Polish Great Emigration. In Paris he supported himself as a composer and piano teacher, giving few public performances. After romantic involvements with several Polish women, from 1837 to 1847 he carried on a relationship with the French novelist, Aurore Dupin, better known by her pseudonym, George Sand. For the greater part of his life Chopin suffered from poor health; he died in Paris, at the age of thirty-nine, of pulmonary tuberculosis.

=Third possibility=:

Frédéric François Chopin, in Polish Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin (the surname is pronounced in French, and usually /ˈʃoʊpæn/ in English; 1 March 1810 – 17 October 1849), was a Polish-French composer and virtuoso pianist. He was one of the great masters of Romantic music. Chopin was born in the Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw to a French father and a Polish mother, and was a child-prodigy pianist and composer. Following the Russian suppression of the Polish November 1830 Uprising, Chopin settled in France as part of the Polish Great Emigration. In Paris, he supported himself as a composer and piano teacher, giving few public performances. After romantic involvements with several Polish women, from 1837 to 1847 he carried on a relationship with the French novelist, Aurore Dupin, better known by her pseudonym, George Sand. For the greater part of his life Chopin suffered from poor health; he died in Paris, at the age of thirty-nine, of pulmonary tuberculosis.

=Comment=:

Obviously, the third possibility is the one I prefer because Polish-French is what Chopin was, but since we must reach consensus, and until the French nationality of Chopin at birth can be verified according to Misplaced Pages "rules & regulations", I would approve the second one.

--Frania W. (talk) 02:26, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

But we've been there before. "Polish born" is a weird expression that implies - well, we're not sure what it implies, different things to different people, but nothing that will increase a reader's understanding of the facts. Your unilateral statement that "Polish-French is what Chopin was" is - well, it's your unilateral statement - it's supported by some sources, but fails to reflect the general view of the sources (not only Polish ones, by any means) that Chopin was "more" Polish than French. For me, the mention of "Polish-French parentage" (perhaps slightly better would be "French-Polish", or we could write English and say "mixed French and Polish") in the same sentence is quite enough to reflect his Frenchness, since presumably the sources that describe him as Polish-French/Franco-Polish are doing so on the basis of his parentage. But if it's so important to indicate that not all sources regard him as exclusively Polish, then we should at least find wording (even if slightly awkward) that make it clear that very many of them do - and certainly none of them regard him as exclusively French.--Kotniski (talk) 07:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

To me, "Polish born", implies that he was "born a Pole". If you say that I am "French born", no matter where I was born, you are saying that I "am French". In the lead, we want to say what Chopin was exactly, not translate the feeling/opinion of those who said that "Chopin was more Polish than Poland", which is not a nationality, nor can be mentioned on a passport, even a Polish one. Besides, someone with mixed parentage can very well be "more one than the other", which does not keep that person from being the product of both.

--Frania W. (talk) 10:20, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

So if he was born a Pole, then he was a Pole his whole life, right? Your thesis is that he didn't change his nationality in any sense at any point. So what does adding "born" add to the meaning, except to make people think (wrongly) that he ceased to be Polish later on (or, if they interpret the phrase differently, that he wasn't really Polish but just happened to be born in Poland)? And what is this obsession with passports?--Kotniski (talk) 10:56, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Kotniski, Frédéric Chopin's Polish nationality, which was his all his life, has never been in doubt, it is his French nationality that is being denied.

If "Polish", as meaning "Polish national", (and only "Polish", not "Polish born"), is put in first sentence of lead, then "French" has to be right there next to it, because, son of a Frenchman, Chopin was a French national at birth. Were he born today, the same would apply. May I again repeat that others in same or similar case as Chopin have all their nationalities mentioned in first sentence of lead: Einstein, Rubinstein, von Braun, Cortot and many more, too numerous to list here.

There is no "obsession" with passports on my part. In this lengthy discussion, both here & on the article talk page, Chopin's 1837 passport was one of the two pieces (the other being the baptismal record) used by Langavant together with the 1804 Code Napoléon to juridically prove that Frédéric Chopin was born French. The only reason the passport keeps on coming back in the conversation is because you & others keep on asking the same question(s) which I calmy & politely answer all over again each time. So the "obsession" might be on the other side, the side of those who obsessively ask for proof over & over again, then turn down whatever is brought to them.

--Frania W. (talk) 22:43, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

He was born Polish and French. His father was also born French. His mother was born Polish and then became Polish-French when she married his father. So Chopin was born to a French father and a Polish-French mother. The best way to make it clear that he was both Polish and French his entire life is to describe him as "Polish-French", not as "Polish-born". Varsovian (talk) 11:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Do you have any source that describes his mother as Polish-French?--Kotniski (talk) 11:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Please see above on this page. It would be best if certain editors could understand that constantly re-requesting sources which have already been given is not in the slightest bit helpful to the discussion here or the common goal. Varsovian (talk) 12:13, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I still can't find it, please can you point it out.--Kotniski (talk) 12:22, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Chopin's mother was 100% Polish and there is no source which would say anything different. The "source" that Varsovian keeps repeating is some French bureaucrat of the time writing something as that "the wife should follow his husband condition", which according to Varsovian's original research means she should be considered "French". De facto that would mean that every women who ever, anywhere married a Frenchman is French, which is absurd. Let's be totally honest here: saying that Chopin's mother was French has as much credibility as saying that Chopin was a bastard, that is zero. The real question is how to consider Chopin's father; since he spent a good part of his life living in Poland, where he adopted the name Mikolaj, he should be considered as French-Polish.  Dr. Loosmark  12:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Again, I disagree with that unless that's how sources refer to him (and I think it's not). --Kotniski (talk) 12:59, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Emmanuel Langavant, agrégé de droit public, professeur à la faculté de droit de l'université de Lille II, was not a French bureaucrat of the time and reading his work is not original research. But clearly anything which states that Chopin was anything less than 100% Polish will simply be dismissed as 'original research' by editors who are unable to stop their nationalism getting in the way of their objectivity. I do like Loosmark's question about Chopin's father though. Let me use the same logic here: the real question is how to consider Nicolas Chopin's son: since he spent a good part of his life living in France, where he used the name Frédéric François and took up the French passport which was his birth-right, he should be considered as French-Polish. Varsovian (talk) 16:16, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Please provide a source where the professeur says that Chopin's mother was French.  Dr. Loosmark  16:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Dr. Loosmark,

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Napoleonic_code

English translation of Code Napoléon:

• http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/government/c_code.html

TITLE I Chapter I where you will find both the nationality of the child & that of the woman who marries a Frenchman, and YES, paraphrasing you: "every woman who ever, anywhere married a Frenchman was French", at time of the implementation of the 1804 Code Napoléon, which covered the wife of Nicolas Chopin. As for Nicolas Chopin, the fact that he adopted the spelling of his baptismal name in Polish did not make a Polish national out of him; also, he did not change the spelling of his last name, which remained "CHOPIN". And if you think that he did become a Pole, then you should bring proof, such as facsimile of his becoming a Pole, which could be considered original research, but which I would love to see, simplement out of curiosity.

• http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/government/code/book1/c_title01.html#chapter1

The jurists who wrote the French Civil Code were not "some French bureaucrat(s)", no more than those who wrote the United States Constitution or Law of the United States were "some American bureaucrats". Your antagonism against the French is showing through such statements.

Also, Professeur Emmanuel Langavant is the one who did the OR, not Varsovian nor myself.

And, please, someone explain to me why, in the whole of Misplaced Pages, only Chopin's French nationality is being put under such hair-splitting scrutiny, while similar cases have never been questioned.

--Frania W. (talk) 23:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I am uneasy with Polish born, as it is unclear whether this refers to nationality or citizenship. Chooing between the current and third variant is hard. How about this solution (I'll bold the parts that are changed compared to the current version):

Frédéric François Chopin, in Polish Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin (the surname is pronounced in French, and usually /ˈʃoʊpæn/ in English; 1 March 1810 – 17 October 1849), was a Polish composer and virtuoso pianist of French-Polish parentage and residentship. He was one of the great masters of Romantic music. Chopin was born in the Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw to a French-expatriate father and a Polish mother, and was a child-prodigy pianist and composer. Soon after his birth, in 1815, the Duchy of Warsaw was partitioned between its neighborhoods, with most of it falling to the Russian Empire. Following the Russian suppression of the Polish November 1830 Uprising, Chopin settled in France as part of the Polish Great Emigration. In Paris he supported himself as a composer and piano teacher, giving few public performances. After romantic involvements with several Polish women, from 1837 to 1847 he carried on a relationship with the French novelist, Aurore Dupin, better known by her pseudonym, George Sand. For the greater part of his life Chopin suffered from poor health; he died in Paris, aged 39, of pulmonary tuberculosis.

I think it is important to clarify in the first paragraph that Chopin spend a significant part of his life in France. I also added a sentence that should clarify to the uninformed leader the sudden transition from discussion of the "Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw" to the "Russian suppression of the uprising". Lastly, I added a few ilinks. Thoughts? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:27, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Ultimately there is little question that a reality check, already backed by sufficient sources, will allow Chopin to be acknowledged as a French-Polish composer and virtuoso pianist. First, by his paternity, and then by his emigration to France where he not only spent a large part of his life, but wrote the majority of his works for which he is most famous. Those are the simple facts. No bias. No nationalism. No fantasies. If anything, this "discussion", which should have ended long ago, might help to improve the encyclopedic quality of the article's lead by concentrating on Chopin's talents and contribution to music. How Poles interpret his music in relation to the Warsaw uprising certainly doesn't belong in the lead any more than the ridiculous..."After romantic involvements with several Polish women..." and might I add that even the gratuitous mention of George Sand in the lead should probably be also reconsidered. In all likelihood, Pauline Strauss was probably more important and significant in the life of Richard Strauss, than George Sand (who ultimately dumped Chopin) was in Chopin's, yet this cigar smoking "feminist" really gets a little too much coverage to begin with, and putting her in the the lead is, IMHO, overkill. In fact, without Chopin, George Sand would hardly be remembered today as even a footnote insofar as having any true notability. Lots of George Sands, very few Chopins. Furthermore, after the Prokonsul Piotrus states his viewpoint and opinion concerning this matter, I believe the discussion should be returned to the Chopin article talk page. Although the Prokonsul is banned from participating at that forum, very few Wikipedians, on English Misplaced Pages, are familiar or interested in this WikiprojectPoland. We can certainly take his opinion into consideration at that venue. This is certainly not the most neutral arena to resolve this fracas once and for all. Dr. Dan (talk) 02:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Off-topic Arbcom stuff

Piotr, I feel you are pushing the boundaries of your topic ban and its amendment by engaging here. Novickas (talk) 19:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd be interested in understanding how you got that feeling. This is the correct place to discuss articles that are under the ban, by definition. — Coren  22:32, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The feeling is based on WP experiences - no diffs, sorry, but take a look at the history of the Copernicus article - that conflicts based on 'X was a Yian' have been extremely contentious here and quickly escalate. As opposed to what I saw as the intent of the amendment: that he would request that sources be added to unref'd BLPs, that categories and project tags be added to new articles, point to possible DYKs. I have no problems with those and it doesn't seem anyone else does either. But discussing ethnicity - a minefield. I know it's possible to interpret his comments above as innocuous and as working towards a compromise. But I really would prefer a slower approach to his re-entry into the topic banned area. It's a jump from 'add a Wikiproject Poland tag to this or that article' to encouraging project members to participate in a major ethnicity argument. The argument at Chopin isn't easy so I don't have any specific ideas about how else he could help improve it without inflaming things. Or how else he could ease back into PL-related topics. Suggestions welcome. Novickas (talk) 23:57, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, I see nothing wrong with the discussion above, and I would certainly not count it as violation of his current restrictions. Let us assume good faith, shall we? — Coren  02:07, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid I shall continue to be wary, tho somewhat reassured by the idea that you are watching this page. Novickas (talk) 20:56, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, I will resume posting in this thread. Please don't hesitate to let me know if any other concerns arise. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:48, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

After the past month's unproductive brawl at the "Chopin" talk page, I am pleasantly surprised at the civil tone and productivity of this single day's discussion, here on this page, of the same topic. I am inclined to credit much of the difference to the salutary influence of Piotrus, and I hope that we may continue to benefit from his participation, under the terms of the 6 May amendment of his restriction, permitting him to raise questions and to comment at this page. Nihil novi (talk) 09:03, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

New article to create: European May 2010 flood (suggested title)

I think somebody should try to create an article on this subject - you could start by translating pl:Powódź w Europie w maju 2010 roku. Once created, the article could also be added to Portal:Current events and even see front page exposure in current news. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:54, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

The article was created: May 2010 Central European floods.  Dr. Loosmark  15:17, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

The article is still in a very poor condition and needs lots of work.  Dr. Loosmark  11:30, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Tadeusz Jasiński

I noticed Tadeusz Jasiński, but I'm confused as the body references Tomasz Jasiński. Is this supposed to be about or . I was considering nominating it for deletion, but contacted the author Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus first, and he suggested I bring it up here. --Nuujinn (talk) 18:35, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Check the Polish wikipedia: , it's the second one.  Dr. Loosmark  18:43, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, please move the article to Tomasz Jasiński. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:22, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm not being clear. I do not see that notability is established for either person. I'll move it for you all if you like, but I think the article needs more references, and lacking those, I'll nominate it for deletion. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:30, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

He seems to be notable historian, with the highest academic degree of "professor". - Darwinek (talk) 19:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the university system in Poland, but please see WP:PROF for guidelines on criteria for notability of professors and academicians. --Nuujinn (talk) 21:13, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

On a cleanup note, now that the article has been moved, we either need to stub or delete Tadeusz Jasiński. I'd prefer stubbing, of course, but can't help with that, unfortunately. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:39, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I think stubbing makes more sense, as I think you can establish notability for this one easily. --Nuujinn (talk) 21:13, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

1. ^ Some sources give 22 February. See Childhood for details.