Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:16, 26 January 2006

Welcome to the Misplaced Pages!

Welcome to the Misplaced Pages, Giovanni33! And thanks for fixing the typo over on the Scientology article. Hope you enjoy editing here and becoming a Wikipedian! Here are a few perfunctory tips to hasten your acculturation into the Misplaced Pages experience:

• Take a look at the Misplaced Pages Tutorial and Manual of Style.
• When you have time, you can peruse The five pillars of Misplaced Pages, and Assume good faith, but keep in mind the unique style you brought to the Wiki!
• Always keep the notion of NPOV in mind, be respectful of others' POV, and remember your unique perspective on the meaning of neutrality is invaluable!
• If you need any help, post your question at the Help Desk.
• Explore, be bold in editing, and, above all else, have fun!

And some odds and ends: Boilerplate text, Brilliant prose, Cite your sources, Civility, Conflict resolution, How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Pages needing attention, Peer review, Policy Library, Utilities, Verifiability, Village pump, Wikiquette, and you can sign your name on any page by typing 4 tildes: ~~~~.

Best of luck, Giovanni33, and have fun! Ombudsman 07:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

violation

Please review WP:SOCK...thanks. KHM03 13:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Also, please look at WP:CON. Thanks...KHM03 13:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Giovanni33. I'm a little concerned that you seemed to acknowledge here that you are the same as 64.121.40.153 and that he seemed to be denying it here. Obviously, there's nothing wrong with forgetting to log on occasionally, or even deliberately not logging on if you're at a strange computer and in a hurry. But since you are making a lot of reverts, and we have a policy on that, and since Belinda claims on the Christianity talk page that five editors at least agree with your version, it's important to know if you are both accounts or only one. Could you please clarify? (And if you are 64.121.40.153, could you try to log on when posting.) Thanks. AnnH 17:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Ann. My IP address is [[User:64.121.40.153|. I never denied otherwise. I have always had the same IP address--one and only. Any other IP address would not be me since I've never used a different PC to edit here. I have already agreed to log in (the times my IP address shows instead of my name is due to not being log on).

I do not know why I seem to have been accused of having more than one account. A diversionary tactic, that is a sign of desperation? hehe I looked at your links and I only see that I said the same things Im saying here: that I only have one account and one IP address. Not loggin in does not mean I have two accounts, since its the same IP address, right? KHM03 lumped me together with another user, Belinda. I denied that I was someone else (any IP address other than 64.121.40.153), stating I have only one account. How is this possibly interpreted as a denial that my own IP address is mine? The other user I was being lumped with has a different IP address. Can you clarify what about this needs clarification since I've already stated this? Giovanni33 18:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)Giovanni33 18:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Giovanni. Thanks for your reply. No, there was no accusation, just a question, and since you've clarified, nothing else needs clarification. The problem was that you were doing a lot of reverts (well, I know I was too!) but you were making some as Giovanni33 and some as 64.121.40.153. As you know, if you revert more than three times in any 24-hour period (and partial reverts count), you can be blocked from editing by an administrator. And the three reverts are considered an absolute limit, not an entitlement. If you split the reverts between your IP address and your username, you can still be blocked. Now, since Belinda was claiming that at least five editors agreed with your version, it seemed important to establish how many of you there are. I never thought it was likely that you were Belinda (though in the case of new editors sharing the same views, we don't generally rule out the possibility); nor do I imply that you're doing anything dishonest in using your username for some edits and your IP address for others. I do ask you to log in as much as possible, though, since it's confusing for people who read the talk page or who check the article history to find out who wanted what. It's natural when a lot of new users and IP addresses suddenly appear, and favour the same versions of the article, that those who've been around longer would wonder. Also, 38.114.145.148 signed on the talk page as Belinda, and shortly afterwards, the new editor BelindaGong appeared. So I wonder if that's one of the "five" who approved your version, or two? Cheers. AnnH 18:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I must apologize for asking that question. I have just seen this, which I missed earlier. There have been so many posts to that page today, that I couldn't keep track of all of them. AnnH 21:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the restoration of the historical chart on Christianity; it may have gotten inadvertently deleted at one point...but there is no complaint from me on that one. KHM03 18:58, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Blocked or not blocked?

It appears I have been blocked from making any further edits. This was right after I made some edits to addressing points in the talk page in goodwill on my part, not to do any reverts (except the Historical Chart, which no one disputs). Yet, looks like I have been blocked as a result anyway. Giovanni33 19:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I didn't block you. Nor did I ask another administrator to do so. I hate blocking newcomers, unless they're vandals. Sorry to hear you can't edit, although 1) if you were blocked, you wouldn't have been able to post to my talk page, and 2) there's no record of your name or your IP on the block logs. (They get filled in automatically, when an administrator blocks someone, so it's not as if someone blocked you and forgot to report it. See here and here for block logs relevant to you. They're both empty. When I got your message I thought perhaps the Christianity article had been protected while I was having dinner, but it wasn't. I suggest you try again shortly. If you like to post here to your talk page (the only page you can edit while blocked, although I stress again that you're not blocked) what makes you think you've been blocked, I'll look into it for you. By the way, I note that you made about ten reverts or partial reverts in the space of 24 hours, so you could have been blocked, even though you weren't. I'll keep an eye on this page in case you respond. Cheers. AnnH 20:02, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I note that you haven't edited anything since. There's still absolutely no record of any block, so I think it must be that you're having computer problems. Anyway, I'll be around for a while, and I'll keep an eye on this page, in case you post anything on it. AnnH 21:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

You've started contributing again. Everything okay? AnnH 22:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Christianity

When you can, please review the recent changes detailed here before changing/reverting. I've tried to address your concerns & incorporate some of your suggestions. I pray we are getting close to a consensus. KHM03 20:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Contributions

I also want to say good job and keep it up. Really, thank you for all your hard work and research in the articles you have edited. I do appreciate it and see that you really do work hard for a consensus and compromise depite the difficulties posed by those who contest inclusion of all your well sourced material. BelindaGong 01:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Further reading

Hi Giovanni. I have been following your discussions on the Christianity pages with interest. Whilst I think you are a little over enthusiastic when editing the main pages your explanations show you are doing this in good faith and are obviously putting in a lot of work. Keep it up as the article is benefiting from having to be more rigorous and precise. These are fringe ideas but as my husband was able to buy 3 books on Gnostic Christianity at the airport in New York it shows that they are gaining ground. For 2000 years the Christians have been able to write their own story so you're not going to change that in a few days on Wiki. Unfortunately questioning these things tends to polarize people into for or against camps, and once they think you are attacking the root of their faith they will be defensive. Literal interpretation is very important to Christianity, especially to Roman Catholics who trace their lineage right back to the disciples. Being from a protestant background myself these things are less important, especially as I see them squeezing out room for faith.

I don't think I've seen you mention Elaine Pagels as a source. I've just started reading "The Gnostic Gospels" by her and as she is a Professor of Religion at Princeton University I think she will pass even KHM03's definition of a scholar! The book is a study of the Nag Hammandi scrolls and seems to be echoing some of what you are saying. Good luck with the edits! SOPHIA 13:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

BC AD

Saw your comment on KS's page - you're right, there is no standard...not even the "first user" standard. It's more of a "don't change without consensus". Guettarda 16:17, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the article, I'm not sure that either is needed, but as it stands now AD is used in the first line and CE later on. The one thing that's not acceptable is a mixed system. Guettarda 16:19, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for contacting me, Giovanni. It looks to me like the original dating system in the Early Christianity article was AD, so I think they'd be justified in keeping the article consistent with that, unless a consensus of editors decides that the other version would be more appropriate. I agree that there is no preferred Misplaced Pages dating system, but in this case, it looks like they were justified in their change. Let me know if I'm misunderstanding, or if you see any other inappropriate changes. Thanks! — Knowledge Seeker দ 03:04, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

3RR violation

Giovanni, you have reverted SIX times on Christianity in the last 24 hours. Please understand — as I've told you before — that partial reverts count. Also, reverts with edit summaries about inserting something according to consensus on talk page also count. AnnH 12:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Another point you should be aware of is when people have a history of violating that rule, some admins actually block them (legally) if they "game the system" by making a fourth revert in, say, twenty-four hour and three minutes. I'm not talking about myself. I haven't ever blocked for 3RR so far, and I wouldn't do it with someone whose reverts are to an article I'm involved in. But I just thought you should be aware. AnnH 13:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

NPOV lecturing

Giovanni33, you wrote on Talk:Christianity,

I think that we can all benefit reviewing the Wiki policy on NPOV. I know we all think we know it, but in practice, I think many of us can slip back into non encylopedic mind frames.

And you followed that with what appeared to be a lengthy excerpt from WP:NPOV. (I didn't take the time to do a diff with the actual text, so I'm not completely sure.) Now, I think including yourself among that "we" as in "we all think we know it" is extremely arrogant of you, given that you've been editing Misplaced Pages for less than a month with this username. (If you've used other registered usernames, I'd be glad to hear it.) In your brief history, you have primarily engaged in edit warring to insert and highlight what you admit is a minority POV, have repeatedly made bigoted statements on related Talk pages. I've been editing Misplaced Pages since 2001, mostly religion related articles but not certainly not exclusively. While people have disagreed with my edits and I've disagreed with theirs, I don't recall ever violating the 3 revert rule, nor being accused of it. I have successfully collaborated with Jews, atheists, agnostics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics and Protestants, and on rare occasions even with fellow Eastern Orthodox Christians. The people you're insulting and reverting similarly have a history of having collaborated with editors with whom they disagree, and ultimately arriving at a mutually acceptable result. I know, I've argued with several of them myself. I normally do my best to assume good faith, but so far you've done little to make that easy for any of us.

You asked on Talk:Christianity what it took to be accepted as a fellow editor. Begin by not reverting edits out of hand, especially not in violation of the three revert rule. Next, try making some uncontroversial edits somewhere, anywhere. And while you're reading up on Misplaced Pages's policies, spend a little time with WP:CIVIL. You don't have to toe the party line to be accepted; plain old fashioned civility and collaboration will go a long way. Wesley 17:48, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I must beg to differ with you on several accounts, starting with your notion that asking that we all review the great ideals of NPOV is an act of arrogance, esp. when I felt such policies were not being followed. Asking us all to review it, including myself, was a way not to single out anyone, but to focus on working toward a common goal and within a working framework. I felt it did help to foster greater respect and cooperation, if but for a while. I'm surprised you think this is such a negative thing. But, I guess you take insult that a newbie such as myself would dare feel himself to be an editor on par with others as is suggested by using the inclusive word "we." hehe Sorry, no offense intended! I guess I'm not part of the club yet. My only defense here is that I'm still learning about the unspoken rules, which take longer to figure out (I read all the written ones).

About my admitting to the fact that I have a minority view. I confess to the crime! hehe Seriously is having a minority point of view a bad thing? I guess, though this will be construed as further "extreme arrogance" esp. when you hear that I've happy with it, and the progress I've made despite the conflict its generated. While I do think some conflict is necessary (the locomotive of all historical progress?), a lot of it was unnecessary too; maybe if I had introduced the NPOV lecture earlier on...? hehe The point of view as I've shown is commonly accepted in many related secular academic circles. That is, that Christianity was strongly influenced by the mystery religions of the Greco-Roman world and the Near East in which it developed. I have provided many prominent scholars who are authorities within the relevant fields of study, who argue the stance. Even though I make my arguments aggressively and with passion, I do not think I've ever been uncivil (please give me an example so that I can reflect), and certainly I have never made bigoted statements. Pointing out actual bias is not bigoted if I show it has nothing to do with ones religious POV per se, but with any POV that rejects any other POV except its own. What you get is bias, no matter where the POV stems from. This is basic NPOV stuff. I think that all points of view are valid in their own way, to create the larger pictures of reality that an encylopedia should impart to its reader. This can only happen when all points of view are fairly and accurately characterized. I’d take the same stance no matter the philosophical worldview in question.

But, I know my arguments have generated extreme defensiveness. I can understand how it looks like the research I cite is aimed at attacking at the roots of their faith, but my only motivation is intellectual honesty, historical context, and a NPOV article. I won’t make these arguments here again, or makethe effort to show that since I started to argue and started to win over people to my point of view, and started to make progress, I’ve noticed the distortions of my actual position (straw man fallacies) and other fallacies including false accusations (socket puppetry), not willing to compromise, doing original research, being radical, extreme, etc. have increased. So have attempts at intimidation. Well, I guess that means I'm doing good work!! hehe About the reverts, yes, but its gone both ways, and I've never made changes without making my case on the talk page and only after the arguments went unanswered by opponents, and after I generated some agreement. Ofcourse, any work that I do, no matter how small gets reverted. The really silly part was that my work was being reverted back into an empty stub at Early Christianity, over and over, while my arguments on the talk page went unanswered. Luckily that has changed, finally. I still note that there is a glaring double standard in the burdon of getting consensus only for my changes, while other changes are accepted, even though there is no consensus.

I don't know if I'll ever be accepted as an equal editor at least regardng this article and controverial matter I'm arguing for, and the guardians of the orthodoxy of this article. But, I am glad to hear you admit that it's true I'm not accepted as an editor. I appreciate the honesty. I guess most would simply deny the descrimination. I have always been willing to compromise, but not on principals. I will continue to make my arguments and judge those of others on the merits of the case, using logic, rationality, and sourced material to support claims. I understand the nature of the topics I'm arguing for have polarized people so I get a feedback thats either really good or really critical. But I thank you for your feedback. I hope it was left in good faith because I'd much rather debate the issues than defending myself from attacks I’ll keep my arguments here at a minimum; it’s a waste of time. Besides maybe all these attacks are part of the diversionary tactics indicative of increased desperation at having lost the real arguments? Let me at least refute one claim---that I'm being “extremely arrogant”--because even if you think that my claims are of unwarranted importance, and they certainly do not stem from my own sense of pride. See: ar·ro·gant adj. “1. Making or disposed to make claims of unwarranted importance or consideration out of overbearing pride.” :)64.121.40.153 21:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)