Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:33, 22 June 2010

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the List of climate change controversies article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12Auto-archiving period: 30 days

Template:Community article probation

This page is not a forum for general discussion about editors' personal beliefs about global warming. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about editors' personal beliefs about global warming at the Reference desk.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

For future reference as to the proponents and opponents of Global warming see: /sides

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Environment: Climate change This environment-related article is part of the WikiProject Environment to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of the environment. The aim is to write neutral and well-referenced articles on environment-related topics, as well as to ensure that environment articles are properly categorized. Read Misplaced Pages:Contributing FAQ and leave any messages at the project talk page.EnvironmentWikipedia:WikiProject EnvironmentTemplate:WikiProject EnvironmentEnvironment ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Climate change. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Skepticism Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. International relations Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the List of climate change controversies article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12Auto-archiving period: 30 days

"dog mess"

It seems that Britons feel that dog leavings affect their lives more than global warming. It's right there in the BBC source. But some feel mention of it is "inappropriate". Doesn't seem so to me: it gives insight into the trivialization of the matter in some minds. Others have convinced me that the source is dicey and the poll questionable. Leave it out. PhGustaf (talk) 02:33, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

It's certainly apropos. Saying "crime" is more important than global warming is one thing, but the "dog mess" statement really brings the situation home to the reader. Fell Gleaming 02:37, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

The whole story did not ring true to me, so I went to have a look at the original research reports that the BBC article was based upon. The current page cites a BBC article, which in turn is about a poll which was conducted by Ipsos-Mori in June 2007. The BBC report includes the following text:

The clear implication is that this was a result of the poll. That isn't true, and there is essential context omitted in the BBC report. This is yet another example of substandard reporting on the issue, IMO. In any case, the full details of the survey are found at the Ipsos-Mori poll page.

There's no mention of "dog mess" at all. But I have tracked that down. The truth of the matter is that poll being reported in the BBC article was actually intended to "feed into" another report, which is detailed at Tipping Point or Turning Point? Social Marketing & Climate Change. That report is very extensive, and a pdf can be downloaded. Here I found the mention of dog mess -- but it was for a different poll, and a different question! Specifically, on page 16 of the full report, there is mention of a poll made in 2005 of residents of Leicester, asking about LOCAL priorities. There were six possible issue listed, being: (1) Traffic Pollution (2) Litter, Graffiti & Dog Mess (3) The Quality of Parks (4) Noise (5) Loss of Trees & Wildlife (6) Climate Change.

In that older poll, climate change was something of an oddity, in that it was the only issue that was not clearly local in scope. Unsurprisingly, it came last in that question of local priorities -- which is pretty much no indication at all of the general importance placed on the issue. That part of the report is looking at the public perceptions of the scale at which the issue is placed; a local problem or a global one.

In all, I think the reference to dog mess is better omitted. It SHOULD have been omitted from the BBC report, since the way it is included there is actively misleading. It's a good example of poor reporting using omitted context to suggest a completely invalid comparison. However, I appreciate we don't do original research here.

My feeling is that we should simply omit the reference to dog mess. We do not want wikipedia backing up shoddy reporting. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 10:08, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

While you've done an extensive amount of original research, the fact remains a reliable source made the claim, and the claim is credible. Frankly, I can't make heads or fails out of your objection, either. By your own admission, there was a poll taken: "There were six possible issue listed, being: (1) Traffic Pollution (2) Litter, Graffiti & Dog Mess (3) The Quality of Parks (4) Noise (5) Loss of Trees & Wildlife (6) Climate Change." Both "dog mess" and "climate change" were on the poll, so what's your issue? Your belief that poll respondents would have scored global warming higher, had it been called a global issue, rather than a local one? We can't omit facts simply because we don't like them. Fell Gleaming 13:52, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

A source that makes an unreliable claim isn't a reliable source for that statement. We cannot say anything about "dog mess" here because there is no reliable source for the statement. --TS 17:31, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Even if the source is reliable, it appears that only a small group of people were polled and, therefore, it fails WEIGHT and NOTABILITY. Q Science (talk) 19:11, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Eh? The source is already being used in the article, and has been for a very long time. We're simply adding the full statement as taken from the original source. As for the number of people polled, it's larger than those used in some other surveys already in the article, and large enough to be considered statistically valid by a large professional polling organization, and notable enough for the BBC to comment on it. Tour argument boils down to I simply just don't like it and don't want to see it. Fell Gleaming 21:19, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion, it is not the "number of people polled" that bothers me, but the "single city" (of about 400,000 people) verses a regional or country sample. BTW, I also have problems with "global" surveys since those include people from unindustrialized nations and people from rigid dictatorships. To be clear, I have no problems with surveying those people as long as the results are associated with the country names. Q Science (talk) 06:52, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

You appear not to follow the objection to the BBC article's report. I'll try to simplify. Here is the paragraph from the wikipedia article that is under contention, with a strike out applied to the passage which I believe is misleading.

The striken phrase is, pragmatically, unreliable, even though it is from what is usually considered a "reliable source".

• The poll cited made no mention of dog mess, despite the BBC implying it did.
• On checking, it turns out dog mess was part of a DIFFERENT poll.
• The different poll which DID mention "dog mess" did NOT suggest dog mess was of "more concern" in general -- only that it was a greater LOCAL concern with residents polled in Leicester in 2005. The question reported in THAT case was this:

• The report which contains this specific detail does not adequately cite the poll; we have no idea how many people were polled or what other questions were included.
• The 2007 poll which is the basis for the BBC article IS clearly described at Ipsos-Mori, and it makes no mention of dog mess.

The BBC article is misleading and gives an inaccurate description of the 2007 poll. I am not wanting my own OR to be part of the article. But mention of dog mess, even though it appears in the BBC article, is inaccurate and shoddy journalism, and I would prefer wikipedia not to give it unmerited recognition.

I am honestly not sure how wikipedia conventions apply in a case like this. But I think there is a problem in general with newreports as a source in that they are frequently pretty shoddy. Misplaced Pages is often treated like an encyclopedia with a credibility comparable to other well known encyclopedias like Brittania; and in many cases it deserves this; but that reputation is put at risk if the policy permits wikipedia articles to cite any newpaper article as "reliable", even when it is clear that pragmatically, it is not. I would also like wikipedia conventions to allow for background fact checking like I have done here as a basis for identifying a specific report detail in a news report as unreliable, and as a basis for omitting inaccurate information from the encyclopedia. This is different from including original research by members into an article. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 02:43, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

so your objection is the WP text (and BBC article) refers to the 2007 Ipsos Mori survey, but the "dog mess" actually refers to a 2005 Ipsos Mori survey? In that case, for accuracy I agree. We should put the results of the 2005 survey separately, to not confuse the reader. Fell Gleaming 02:55, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think it is notable. The 2005 survey is not well cited. It was specifically looking at whether warming is seen as a local issue or a global one; other questions indicate that on a global scale, warming IS of major importance to many people. Reporting one but not the other would be absurd. At this stage I would like to strike ALL the comparisons from the wikipedia page, since the 2007 poll did not actually make any comparisons, not with crime, or terrorism, or any other such things. The poll being reported in the BBC article is described at this | Ipsos-Mori poll page, and it does suggest the following:

• 56% of 2031 polled adults either strongly agree or tend to agree that Many leading experts still question if human activity is contributing to climate change
• 69% or 2031 polled adults either strongly disagree or tend to disagree that Human activity does not have significant effect on the climate

The juxtaposition of these two numbers is an interested insight into public perceptions. The BBC article, however, only reports the first. At this stage my preference would be that if the BBC article is to be cited at all, then we merely give the first sentence, and strike the second sentence on comparisons entirely.

Ideally, given that the topic is public perceptions, I think it would be good to remove the BBC reference entirely, and point to the available Ipsos-Mori publication Tipping Point or Turning Point? Social Marketing & Climate Change, which describes and summarizes a number of polls, including both those discussed here. The wikipedia page could give some short sound bites from the introductory summary of that report, as follows:

In 2007 a report on public perceptions by Ipsos MORI reports that

• There is widespread recognition that the climate, irrespective of the cause, is changing - 88% believe this to be true.
• However, the public is out of step with the IPCC, with 41% believing that climate change is being caused by both human activity and natural processes. 46% believe human activity is the main cause.
• Only a small minority reject anthropogenic climate change, while almost half (44%) are very concerned. However, there remains a large proportion who are yet to be fully persuaded and hold doubts about the extent of the threat.
• There is still a strong appetite among the public for more information, and 63% say they need this to come to a firm view on the issue and what it means for them.
• The public continue to externalise climate change to other people, places and times. It is increasingly perceived as a major global issue with far-reaching consequences for future generations - 45% say it is the most serious threat facing the World today and 53% believe it will impact significantly on future generations. However, the issue features less prominently nationally and locally, indeed only 9% believe climate change will have a significant impact upon them personally.

Source is Tipping Point or Turning Point? Social Marketing & Climate Change (3Mb pdf). —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 03:31, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Nice work, Duae. Your arguments are well reasoned and your summation of the Ipsos-Mori material concise. I think you should feel free to lose the BBC reference and edit the article the way you’ve outlined here.--CurtisSwain (talk) 08:20, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely first rate work there, Duae Quartunciae. Thank you. Tasty monster (=TS ) 01:07, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks... with that encouragement I have gone ahead to replace the paragraph on the Ipsos MORI research with approximately the text given here, cited to the Ipsos MORI report. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 12:41, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm too late to second the kudos, so I'll have to third them. Nice work,Duae.SPhilbrickT 18:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Pull quotes with Cquote template

I don't like the way the page uses the Cquote template for quotes. This is not recommended usage, and it looks ugly because short quotes appear centered. The template documentation strongly advises that this template should not be used for block quotations in article text. For long quotations in the text, the Manual of Style recommends using the HTML <blockquote> element, such as through the use of the {{Quote}} template.

I propose to replace all the CQUOTE templates as suggested. It means that the large quote characters will no longer appear. So I want to double check this is okay before I go ahead. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 04:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree. You could standardise the use of italics in these quotes while you're there. The more semantically meaningful the final HTML the better. --Nigelj (talk) 07:46, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Nice call. Chuck the Cquote.--CurtisSwain (talk) 12:10, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I like the large quote characters when used properly as pull quotes. I’ve started using them more, hope that I am not abusing them. Properly used, they can add positively to the visual appearance of an article. However, I agree that they should generally be used as pull quotes, as opposed to simply used to quote a long block of text in an article. I agree that most of the quotes I reviewed in this article should not be formatted using cquote. I’m not averse to using a pull quote where appropriate, but I didn’t see any such examples.SPhilbrickT 15:56, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I haven't seen Duae for some time, so I went ahead and made the changes.--SPhilbrickT 13:43, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that! I've been slack about keeping up with good intentions. Looks much better now. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 07:28, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

NAS Member Open Letter

This open letter by 250+ NAS members, including 11 Nobel Laureates, published in Science and mentioned in The Guardian, Nature, The Torygraph,Discover, The NYT, ABC, Time, and many others, should probably go somewhere. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:15, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Reference to broken DOI

A reference was recently added to this article using the Cite DOI template. The citation bot tried to expand the citation, but could not access the specified DOI. Please check that the DOI doi:10.1175/1520-0442(2002)015 has been correctly entered. If the DOI is correct, it is possible that it has not yet been entered into the CrossRef database. Please complete the reference by hand here. The script that left this message was unable to track down the user who added the citation; it may be prudent to alert them to this message. Thanks, Citation bot 2 (talk) 13:08, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

There is a consensus in scientific literature that recent global warming is caused by man?!?

I dispute this claim. There is no consensus and I don't believe the reference/link even begins to prove this claim. If (and it's a big if) there is a majority of scientists who contribute to scientific literature who believe this is this case, their opinions may have been formed due to incorrect information and questionable methods. This last sentence in the intro is highly inappropriate. Marktka (talk) 13:28, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

'There is no consensus. ... and if there is consensus among them, they're all wrong!' lol Wikispan (talk) 13:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

See Scientific opinion on climate change. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:10, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Quote from Science

I added a recent, relevant quote from prestigious Science to the paragraph discussing critics who believe the IPCC report was too conservative. I think I found an appropriate location, but we can debate the location and the inclusion.--SPhilbrickT 14:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I've attributed it to the author, not the magazine, and replaced the AAAS with the year. People who don't know Science probably also don't know the AAAS, and can find out about both by clicking on Science. I'm a bit concerned that we now excerpt a fairly small point from the article, though. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:42, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Some percentages

I don't know if these is appropriate for this article, but here are a couple of interesting news reports that sound like they belong in some global warming article:

• "Climate scepticism 'on the rise', BBC poll shows". BBC News. 7 February 2010.
• Rosenthal, Elisabath (24 May 2010). "Climate Fears Turn to Doubts Among Britons". New York Times. London.

NW (Talk) 03:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Climate change consensus would be the appropriate article. Dmcq (talk) 11:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

To quote this article's lead, "The controversy is significantly more pronounced in the popular media than in the scientific literature." This would suggest that trends in public opinion are highly relevant to this article. Since Misplaced Pages is remarkably up to date on almost everything a case could be made for including short-term trends. However the following considerations suggest caution in taking short-term trends in public opinion too seriously, other than in the form of general remarks on its volatility---"it will fluctuate" as J.P. Morgan said when asked what the stock market will do.

Scientific opinion is formed largely from an shared in-depth understanding of the principles. Scientific papers and conferences ensure that the understanding is shared, and the certainty or lack thereof in the understanding is judged from the coherence of the literature and conference talks. It is hard for those sectors of the energy industry with a vested interest in a second opinion to shift the scientific opinion significantly, and it rarely changes dramatically overnight.

Public opinion on the other hand is formed on the basis of many sources coexisting in a relatively information-noisy and uncertain environment. A good analogy would be the stock market, where analysts and traders play the respective roles of scientists and the public. Public opinion is more easily swayed and fluctuates more wildly than scientific opinion, for much the same reason that the prices at which traders are willing to buy and sell fluctuate more wildly than the numbers supported by in-depth study and analysis of a company's fundamentals. Whereas the "market cap" of a company is a noisy figure, its fundamentals are more scientifically based (not to say that this makes them a perfect predictor of future performance). The same can also be said of housing prices, albeit with fewer fundamentals to go on.

Less than 1% of the world lives in Britain (which incidentally is home to CRU so the burglary might be expected to have a larger impact there). If Misplaced Pages were to track every monthly swing in public opinion country by country it would tend to undermine the big picture about the controversy, just as it would if housing prices in various markets were kept up to date. Public opinion trends should be analyzed (first, second, even third central moments as appropriate) over a reasonably sized window in order to make them digestible; at too fine a grain they cease to be encyclopedic knowledge and become mere information. --Vaughan Pratt (talk) 18:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I added the first of NW's refs to the "Public opinion" section. Arguably that section is far too large for an article which has a see-main William M. Connolley (talk) 10:29, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Guardian/Greenpeace

The Guardian article introduced here is certainly a good source. But a) it should not replace the definitions, and b), we cannot take it as gospel truth. Guardian attributes the reporting to Greenpeace, we need to attribute it to either or both. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:46, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Rv: why

Let's not link to the undead William M. Connolley (talk) 07:58, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know whether The Gore Effect will survive the AfD, but it doesn't belong in this article, at least not in its present form.--SPhilbrickT 11:27, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

It is a shame Cla has blindly reverted without any attempt at discussion. At the very least inclusion should await the outcome of AFD; but as you say, it probably doesn't belong even if it survives William M. Connolley (talk) 11:48, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

"Even if". Including the merges as effective deletes the AfD is currently at 18-19. So delete seems unlikely unless the Cabal has access to a Claque. --BozMo talk 13:33, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

A claque is a clique that claps. PhGustaf (talk) 16:30, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

The article appears to be well on its way to surviving AfD. The relation to the controversy/debate is well established in the article, explaining that the term is used to mock advocates of the theory of human-caused global warming. I think the term should be listed in the See Also section. Cla68 (talk) 23:21, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Interesting that you're pressing for the inclusion of a term that is used to "mock" an individual (Gore), when you have objected to derogatory remarks elsewhere. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:39, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Please don't personalize debates SBHB, it's not helpful. Do you disagree that the use of the term by some in the media is part of the often adversarial debate over acceptance of the theory of human-caused climate warming? Cla68 (talk) 00:58, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Firstly I do not believe that pointing out inconsistencies in an editor's position is "personalizing"; I'd be quite happy to receive such feedback myself. Secondly I do not think the term is a significant part of the issue -- we don't need to include everything that has ever appeared in a newspaper, and the difficulty the term has had in surviving AfD points to its relative obscurity. Finally, such mockery trivializes the article. It would be like including Drill, baby, drill as a Seealso in Energy policy of the United States. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:11, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

You really believe that simply including a link to it in the "See Also" section with no accompanying text whatsoever trivializes this article? I guess we'll have to disagree. Use of satire related to global warming is, IMO, part of the cultural and socio-political war that is ongoing about global warming which seems to me to be what this article is about. Cla68 (talk) 01:16, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

We had a short debate recently somewhere about the inclusion of links to wingnut, whacko and nutcase quietly at the end of somebody's BLP. You can guess which way that went. --Nigelj (talk) 09:06, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I think this reference would be fine in the see also of climate change denial but it looks out of place in this article which is supposed to deal mainly with the more rational objections. Dmcq (talk) 09:58, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I hope the Gore effect survives AfD, but that doesn't change my view it doesn't belong as a link here. That said, I concur with someone who noted that the removal should not occur while the AfD is in progress. The global warming controversy should relate to science and policy based controversies (noting that for the purposes of this discussion, a flawed science based objection counts, it doesn't have to be scientifically valid to merit inclusion, it merely needs to be notable).--SPhilbrickT 13:30, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Precisely. (Except for the part about not removing it while the AfD is in progress; I don't see the connection there. So not so precisely, I guess.) Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:33, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

The Gore Effect is part of the controversies about global warming, and there is no good reason to limit coverage of the controversies only to their origins in science and policy. The subject of every controversy extends beyond policy questions and questions of fact. Editors should stop pretending otherwise. It isn't as if the more emotional aspects of the controversy are unimportant, either, as the CRU emails show. This yearning to deny the sillier aspects of the actual subject strikes me as being a little too much Victorian earnestness that's making us trip over our own feet. The readers are best served by getting a full picture of the scope of the subject, including all of its important aspects. In a public controversy, you note all of the aspects that have enough WP:WEIGHT (in terms of information), not just the ones we deem serious. "Serious" simply doesn't equal "important enough to cover" because, as we all know, public opinion in this public controversy is of outstanding importance, and a very widespread meme in the public debate is therefore of some importance. Certainly important enough to include a three-word link in a "See also" list at the bottom of the article. Is it really editorial judgment we're exercising here or self-censorship? -- JohnWBarber (talk) 14:06, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

My opinion is that it would be better to write about the Gore effect in a few sentences in this article and give the wiki-link there, rather than to have an entry in the see also section. When I read Misplaced Pages articles (so my mindset is then really to read and not to edit), then I may click on "see also" links with the expectation to get more information about the topic. Clicking on the Gore effect wiki-link wll send most readers to an article they would likely not find useful at all. And ending up at a page you don't want to read is irritating. So, at least one has to include a text here explaining briefly what the Gore effect is. Count Iblis (talk) 14:54, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I think someone in the AfD brought up a very good similar example: Merging Lolcat with Cat. It's a question of whether or not the subject is worth an article on its separate page. We should limit discussion of that to the AfD page. My comment to Kim, just below, addresses why I think a link would help readers better understand an aspect of this article. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 15:22, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The Gore Effect is part of the controversies about global warming. Do please come up with a demonstration that it actually rises to a WP:WEIGHT level that even remotely compares to the other items in this article. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:56, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Kim, do please understand that a three-word link in a "See also" section at the bottom of an article has the lightness of a feather. I think that's actually less weight here than a sentence coming from a merger would have, and I think three words amount to roughly the proper weight, but at this tiny level the concepts of WP:WEIGHT get a little surreal. Does this article give due weight overall to the influence of the less serious aspects of this public controversy? This would be a good example of that side of it. Do you deny that there is such a side of it (please refrain from answering with the obvious partisan dig about "serious sides")? Shouldn't readers who may be unfamiliar with the controversy be helped in understanding that there is a fervid, emotional side to it that may not otherwise be apparent in our coverage? Given the dramatic emoting of Misplaced Pages editors on this subject, reflecting the emotional tension of the debate beyond Misplaced Pages, one would think it would be obvious that it's an important enough aspect of the controversy. All controversies tend to have some emotional element, this one has a huge emotional element. It ain't always pretty, but it's real. So we should cover it. -- -- JohnWBarber (talk) 15:22, 11 June 2010 (UTC) --- Actually, I see that the paragraph ending in Footnote 210 (in "Political pressure on scientists", starting with "Scientists who agree with ") does cover some of the emotional element of this issue, but only addresses the emotions of the climate change campaigners. Readers should know it's emotional on both sides. This is one brief way to allude to that. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 15:31, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

"See Also" sections are also determined by WP:WEIGHT - otherwise we would end up with cross-reference articles where the "See Also" part is the major content item. When you are saying/noticing that "but at this tiny level the concepts of WP:WEIGHT get a little surreal" - we've passes the WP:WEIGHT threshold quite a bit of time ago. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:30, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

To say that something is not worth much WP:WEIGHT isn't to say that it's worth no weight. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 15:42, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually it does. Otherwise articles would be filled up with trivia (which is sorted away because it has little to no weight). Articles are not supposed to link/ref every remotely related article - that is what categories are for. In the context of this article, the neology/joke usage of "Gore effect" is WP:UNDUE - it serves no purpose except as a distraction. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:55, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it's representative of an important part of the subject of the article that is not given its due weight in the article now. As I said previously. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 19:14, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

What?! The local weather on the days this one US politician speaks is "an important part of" the worldwide global warming controversy?! That's not a very serious controversy, then. --Nigelj (talk) 20:01, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I assume Nigel is right - a controversy with no measurable outcome is as serious as Endianness. The catholic church needs three miracles for a saint, the Gore effect is all what the Church of climatism needs. Polentario (talk) 21:29, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

"Climategate"

Any objections to adding the term "Climategate" (parenthetically) to the See Also section, next to the Climatic Research Unit email controversy link already there? Someone asked about it over at GW article talk. I was going to direct them to this article, but I see the term only appears in 2 refs here. I might also suggest the body text could mention the term, at least. -PrBeacon (talk) 07:36, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes William M. Connolley (talk) 10:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

If it is NOT added, then average users will have to click the link to know that it refers to Climategate. Only the regular editors know it by the long "official" name. Q Science (talk) 14:34, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

WP:RECENTISM and WP:NOT#NEWS seems appropriate. "Climategate" is a well-known in parochial and obsessive circles, but not to general reference points. WP:SEEALSO seems to indicate that controversial links should probably be eschewed, as should this one, methinks. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Climate change sceptic scientists 'less prominent and authoritative'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/7845662/Climate-change-sceptic-scientists-less-prominent-and-authoritative.html is fun. Scientists who believe in man-made climate change have better scientific credentials than global warming sceptics, according to a study. and so on William M. Connolley (talk) 15:57, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Or perhaps Science is a better source: http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2010/06/scientists-convinced-of-climate.html. Or read it yourself: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/06/04/1003187107.abstract William M. Connolley (talk) 16:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Amazing what redefining the peer review process can do for you, funny how Judith Curry "called the study "completely unconvincing"" mark nutley (talk) 17:13, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree with that, I can't see it convincing skeptics of anything. The surveys asking the scientists themselves are far better that way. It's a survey though so I suppose it should go into scientific consensus on climate change. Dmcq (talk) 17:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree that nothing will convince the skeptics. Fortunately this article isn't called "Convincing the skeptics" so your complaint is irrelevant to the materials inclusion. As to "re-defining PR" - perhaps MN could expand on what that might mean William M. Connolley (talk) 18:47, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Really WMC? Climategate ring any bells here? mark nutley (talk) 18:57, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Nope. Vague waving of "scary" words gets you Nul Pointe. Have another go? William M. Connolley (talk) 19:13, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Gosh your funny, Kevin and I will keep them out somehow - even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is! mark nutley (talk) 20:22, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Mark, what does this have to do with anything? That sentence can be understood in at least two ways: as an expletive as in "My Boss is an asshole, i could fragging kill him" - or in a more conspiratorial way. So lets examine the conspiratorial one: Is there any real life evidence that PR was redefined? (excepting the sceptical conspiracy theories?) Has any of the 3 official reviews found such? Did Kevin and Phil manage to keep the papers out? (hint: No). It is all very well that you (apparently) feel that the conspiratorial version is correct - but could you please leave those opinions in the foyer? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:40, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

WMC asked a question, it is answered, that mail clearly shows an attempt to corrupt the PR process, but of course that does not matter does it? The vibe that I am getting from here, there and everywhere is that your reportage is very worrisome to most climate scientists. But, I sense that you are about to experience the 'Big Cutoff' from those of us who believe we can no longer trust you, me included Sure they are all saints who were quoted out of context mark nutley (talk) 20:48, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Mark, No. The mail doesn' "clearly show(s)" such a thing - just as a mail from me complaining about my boss and telling that i'm ready to kill him, doesn't clearly show that i'm capable (or even contemplating) murder. You are assuming things - and you are fooling yourself into believing that your assumptions are factually correct. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

So, returning to the point at hand: does anyone have any credible objections to putting a brief summary of the Science ref in? William M. Connolley (talk) 20:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Not at all so long as it contains "Judith Curry, a climate expert at the Georgia Institute of Technology – who was not part of the analysis – called the study "completely unconvincing" while John Christy of University of Alabama claimed he and other climate sceptics included in the survey were simply "being blacklisted" by colleagues". This mark nutley (talk) 20:59, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

It isn't clear to me why we should priviledge Curry or your pet text in that way. The Science article is better than the Torygraph anyway William M. Connolley (talk) 21:06, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Well it is clear per wp:npov mark nutley (talk) 21:10, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Youre bickering about vanities in the press. I would prefer to have the Hartwell Paper discussed in detail. We all know that science is settled. According the paper, this -for more than 15 years has not resulted in any significant reduction in greenhous gases. The scientific consensus seems not to be able to produce a real world reaction. Insofar its not worth a farthing. Polentario (talk) 21:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

@MN: you'll have to lay out your reasoning in more detail. Why exactly does NPOV require priveledging one partiucular viewpoint? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm talking about a peer-reviewed paper in PNAS. What do you think we're talking about? I agree, avoiding the press is a good idea though. as to Hartwell, if you're interested in it: great! Why not write about it? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I don`t care what PNAS say`s, either balance it or it can`t go in. The Telegraph is a relaible source, as is Science This is a completely unconvincing analysis," says climate expert Judith Curry of the Georgia Institute of Technolog mark nutley (talk) 21:20, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Erm? Where exactly does it say that we have to have the same weight as in a review? Curry may be interesting - but it is certainly not a given that she automagically must be included. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:23, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Rubbish, you have been giving me hell on my talk page for what you sy are cherry picking and not sticking to npov, and now this? Per wp:npov both sides of this should be included mark nutley (talk) 21:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it is of a weight or relevant enough to go in this article. As I said before scientific opinion on climate change would be my vote if anywhere. Dmcq (talk) 21:33, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Environment articles
• Unknown-importance Environment articles
• WikiProject Climate change articles
• B-Class Skepticism articles
• Mid-importance Skepticism articles
• WikiProject Skepticism articles
• B-Class politics articles
• Mid-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• B-Class International relations articles
• Low-importance International relations articles
• WikiProject International relations articles