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Revision as of 00:37, 25 July 2010

Talkpage format

Hi. If you put your responses in middle of another editors comment it confuses the reader. By "splitting" the comment the first part is unsigned and who is saying what will be unclear. Please reformat your comments so that it does not "break" another editors comments. Thanks, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:01, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe I did so.JRHammond (talk) 16:09, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

My bad. Sorry, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:13, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Six-Day War

Template:Uw-3rr2 ← George 06:56, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Tell it to Jiujitsuguy, George. I've rightly corrected the article to comply with Misplaced Pages's NPOV and verifiability policies. Jiujitsuguy 3 times now has undone my right and proper revision, to make it read in a manner that violates that NPOV policy.

The last time he undid my edit, he did so with the comment that there is "no consensus" for it. But that's just the point, a perfectly good reason for my edit. As you will observe on the Talk page, there is no "consensus" that the attack was or was not "preemptive". The sentence thus, by his own logic, read so as not to assert either POV as fact, as my corrective has properly done.

I will continue to re-do my edit so long as Jiujitsuguy (or anyone else, for that matter) continue to undo it so that the sentence asserts as fact what is a subjective judgment, in violation of Misplaced Pages standards and policies.

Take your complaint to Jiujitsuguy, with whom it would have legitimacy.JRHammond (talk) 07:57, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

"I will continue to re-do my edit so long as Jiujitsuguy (or anyone else, for that matter) continue to undo it..." IOW, you're vowing to continue edit warring in direct violation of Misplaced Pages policy. Unacceptable. Enigma 16:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

July 2010

Notice of enforcement action--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 16:07, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Notice of discretionary sanctions

As a result of the Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, the Arbitration committee has acknowledged long-term and persistent problems in the editing of articles related to Israel, Palestine, and related conflicts. As a result, the Committee has enacted broad editing restrictions, described here. These editing restrictions may be applied to any editor for cause, provided the editor has been previously informed of the case. This message is to so inform you. Enigma 17:51, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Blocked 31 hours

For a clear violation of WP:3RR. Please note that whether you think you're right or not, or whether you think you're restoring "NPOV" or not, does not affect whether or not it's edit warring. Unless you're removing clear vandalism or defamation (not the case here), it is edit-warring, period. If you persist with this behaviour after returning from your block, you will be blocked for a lengthier period of time. Enigma 19:01, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

The 3 revert rule states "An editor must not perform more than three reverts (as defined below) on a single page within a 24-hour period." I did not perform more than three reverts within a 24-hour period. Therefore, I did not violate WP:3RR. Restore my status. JRHammond (talk) 01:35, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

You made four reverts on July 16, after inserting material that did not have consensus on the talk page. Enigma 16:38, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Let's be clear on the facts, here, because you don't have them straight. I made TWO reverts on July 16. I know of no rule stating any limitation on the number of EDITS one makes, only the number of REVERTS.

The first was because 24.23.193.232 had reverted the text to violate NPOV. That's not an opinion, but a point of fact, by his own admission (he acknowledged it was a "viewpoint", yet his revert made it read as a statement of fact). So my revert of his revert was perfectly appropriate, and my reason for it was agreed to by the person whose undoing I undid! So what was the problem here? There was none.

My second edit was NOT a revert. Acknowledging the correctness of my point and reason for my revert, 24.23.193.232 then added a caveat to the sentence. I found it acceptable, but made was a minor edit, changing "was" to "is" because it should properly have been simple present tense, as it is true today. So what was the problem here? There was none.

The third edit I made was also not a revert. I inserted additional factual information into the paragraph, fully sourced, neutral and verifiable. Did adding further information in such a manner violate any Misplaced Pages policy? If so, what protocol did I ignore? I understand that: "The Misplaced Pages community encourages users to be bold when updating pages." What was the problem here?

Jiujitsuguy then undid the information I added, without any legitimate explanation. So I added it once more noting that the addition was factual, neutral, sourced, and verifiable and requesting on the Talk page that if anyone has any problem with it, they should air their concerns and comments instead of just undoing my edit, since it was factual, neutral, sourced, and verifiable. Again, I fail to see the problem, or what WP policy I violated by doing so.

So, as you can see, that's at most two "reverts" (I only clicked "undo" once). I therefore did not violate 3RR, and you're block on me is therefore wrong and inappropriate. I suggest you get your facts straight and exercise better judgment next time, so as not to repeat this mistake in the future. JRHammond (talk) 02:30, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I would also note that the 3RR page states: "Considerable leeway is given to editors reverting to maintain the quality of a featured article while it appears on the main page."

I maintain that all my edits improved the quality of the article, including in the case of the first revert, which was done so the article did not violate WP:NPOV, and the second re-insertion of additional factual material, fully sourced and verifiable. Yet, I was not only not shown leeway, but blocked despite the fact that I CLEARLY did NOT violate Misplaced Pages 3RR policy -- which you would have known had you bothered to take the time to actually investigate the matter seriously. What is with this prejudice, Enigmaman? Explain yourself. JRHammond (talk) 02:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

You very clearly did violate 3RR, but hey, I've seen this before. You will never admit it. Edit warriors never want to admit they're edit-warring. Anyone can see the article history, you know. Enigma 06:45, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Kindly prove your claim that I "clearly did violate 3RR". You'll find you won't be able to support that false claim, since I did not make 3 or more reverts in a 24-hour period, as I explained in detail above, the points of which you are either too lazy, ignorant, or dishonest to actually address, the facts of which you don't even make the slightest effort to dispute. But, hey, you'll never admit your incompetence and your error. I've seen this before. Like I said, you should exercise greater care in the future so as not to make a similar mistake again. Cheers. JRHammond (talk) 06:53, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Exercise greater care to stop personally attacking me and stop edit-warring, else you'll be blocked again. You don't understand what a "revert" is, and that really isn't my problem. Enigma 15:23, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I understand perfectly well that "Reverting means undoing the effects of one or more edits, which normally results in the page being restored to a version that existed sometime previously. More broadly, reverting may also refer to any action that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part."

You will observe the fact that, by this, Misplaced Pages's own definition, I only made two reverts and therefore did not violate the 3RR rule. As a further corollary, you wrongfully and inappropriately blocked me. Again, I suggest you get your facts straight and exercise better judgment in the future, so as not to make this mistake again. JRHammond (talk) 16:51, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Strictly speaking there may be some merit in JRhammond's original claim that there was no 3RR violation, as there were arguably only three reverts (by my count). However, the reverts in question were made to an article under general sanctions, which provide for an admin to take action to prevent disruption, over and above the edit warring policy which allows for a block even if 3RR wasn't violated. So while the letter of the block rationale might be questioned, the block itself was sound. There's no need to pile personal attakcs on top of (rather optimistic) wikilawyering. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 19:59, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I can also confirm that JRHammond did not violate 3RR. --Frederico1234 (talk) 21:32, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Frederico1234 and SheffieldSteel, for getting involved. SheffieldSteel, you suggest the block was "sound" despite acknowledging that there might be "merit" in my "claim that there was no 3RR violation". It is not a "claim" that I did not violate 3RR. Either I did or I didn't; and it is a fact anyone may verify for themselves (as Frederico1234 has done) that I did not. I don't know how you count 3 reverts. It's a fact that I only made 2 reverts (in fact, I only used "undo" 1 time) in the 24-hour period in question (as I outlined above). So, if I did not violate 3RR, how was blocking me based on violation of 3RR a "sound" decision? Enigmaman told me he blocked me for no other reason than allegedly violating 3RR. Yet he didn't even bother to take the time to distinguish between edits that were reverts and edits that were not. I took the time to point out his error in great detail, listing and explaining every single one of my edits and demonstrating I only made to reversions and reasonable requested his action to be undone. Yet even then Enigmaman didn't bother to address the fact, insisting I violated 3RR without offering any evidence for his false claim. If you can offer another explanation for this behavior other than laziness, ignorance, or dishonesty, I'm all ears. That is not a personal attack, it's an observation. If you think that's inaccurate, like I said, I'm all ears.

In addition, the 3RR page states, "Considerable leeway is given to editors reverting to maintain the quality of a featured article while it appears on the main page." That means, according to Misplaced Pages's own policy, the purpose of an edit should MUST taken into consideration, and whether or not it improves the article, such as by making it comply with WP:NPOV. Yet clearly the only thing Enigmaman took into consideration was the number of edits I made (even when they were not reverts). I maintain that my edits improved the article and brought it into compliance with WP:NPOV. This is not an opinion. Fact: There are two viewpoints on whether Israel's war was "preemptive" or not. Fact: The article formerly endorsed one of those viewpoints in violation of WP:NPOV. Fact: I changed the lede from asserting the one side as fact in order to make it read neutrally, offering both views but endorsing neither. Thus, it is a demonstrable fact that my reverts improved the article. My other edits also improved the article, such as by fixing the be-verb "was" to the present tense, as it properly should have been, and by adding additional relevant and factual information, neutral, fully sourced, and verifiable. As such, blocking me was wrong and inappropriate. I would like to think administrators could exercise sounder judgment than what I've witnessed in Enigmaman. JRHammond (talk) 01:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

This screed is wholly absurd. "This is not an opinion." Fact: When you start thinking your opinions are facts, there's a definite problem. You want a fact? You were edit-warring. Would you like me to ask other administrators to give their opinion on whether you were edit-warring or not? I think we'd have a consensus there. "I would like to think administrators could exercise sounder judgment than what I've witnessed in Enigmaman." I'd like to think editors could exercise sounder judgment than what I've witnessed from you. Let's look at the facts: 1)You edit-warred with three different editors to maintain your preferred version of the article, apparently believing that your opinion is the only valid one. 2)You denied edit-warring, despite a surfeit of evidence to the contrary. 3)After being blocked, you proceeded to call the blocking administrator a bunch of names. Other than getting a longer block, I don't know what you hoped to accomplish there. Luckily for you, I'm rather patient and I've been called far more names than you could ever conceive of. Enigma 02:15, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Would you care, Enigmaman, to actually address the facts and logic of my argument? Because if you continue to choose to ignore the facts I've given you and the logic by which I've arrived at my conclusions, without addressing them, then clearly we have nothing to discuss.

And you still can't seem to manage to get your facts straight, and you continue to make false claims against me. See, I'll actually respond substantively to your statements of fact and your logic. You should try it.

1) I did not edit war with three different editors. That is false, as I've already discussed at length. In sum, my edits with regard to 24.23.193.232 were mutually cooperative the editor agreed with my reason for my revert and compromised with a solution I found acceptable, but changed to correct the GRAMMAR!), and thus not "warring". But even if one were to accept the characterization of this as "warring", that's only TWO editors, the only other editor even involved being Jiujitsuguy. No other editors were even involved. Again, others can verify that fact, and see for themselves that you continue to demonstrate either incompetence or dishonesty.

2) Your "surfeit of evidence" that I've edit-warred consists of false statements such your false claim that I violated the 3RR rule and your false claim that I warred with 3 different editors.

3) On your claim that I called you "a bunch of names", you are attempting to imply that I engaged in an ad hominem argument. That is false. I merely observed the fact that you had blocked me on false pretexts, made false claims against me, as you continue to do, and observed the logical corollary that this could only be due to either laziness, ignorance, or dishonesty. If you see any fourth possibility there you're welcome to share it with us. I accept the possibility that perhaps I've been unimaginative in coming up with any other explanation for your behavior. JRHammond (talk) 05:07, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I am not intimidated by your threats to further abuse your authority against me, because I have faith and confidence that others may discern the actual facts and circumstances here and make a right judgment based on those facts, rather than based on blatant lies, the latter of which seems to be your preferred method. JRHammond (talk) 05:16, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

JRHammond - We allow some leeway for recently blocked users being unhappy about that. I would like to indicate to you in no uncertain terms that you've reached the end of that leash and need to stop now. You're welcome to object - insulting and attacking are not acceptable forms of objection. You have been insulting and attacking. Please stop that. If you want to argue that your edits didn't violate WP:EDITWAR please feel free to do so, but (despite the inaccurate 3RR label initially) it's not clearly evident that you didn't do so.

Enigmaman - I suspect that you continuing to engage in discussion here is leading things on to further abusive comments, rather than resolving the situation. I suggest that you simply disengage and leave it to other admins who JRHammond is less likely to insult; it will hopefully help defuse the situation.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:45, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Georgewilliamherbert, you're presumption that I need to prove I didn't violate WP:EDITWAR is faulty. The reason given to me for why I was blocked was that I had violated 3RR. As you yourself acknowledge, I did NOT violate 3RR. Therefore, it follows that I should not have been blocked.

If you want to argue I should still have been blocked for other reasons, fine, but the burden of proof is on you to show that I violated policy, not for me to prove that I did not. Given the fact that so far I've been presented with no legitimate reasons for my being blocked, on the assumption that if there was one it would have been brought up by now, I'm confident I did nothing in violation of Misplaced Pages policy in any of my edits.

Finally, regarding what you consider "insulting and attacking", like I said, if anyone would like to suggest any other possible explanations or logical corollaries of the fact that Enigmaman felt it necessary to make demonstrably false claims in order to defend his inappropriate and abusive actions, I'm all ears. Be my guest.

All I'm asking for is fair and nonprejudicial treatment and to be treated with an equal standard as all editors, and to be either presented with a reasonable explanation for my having been blocked or an apology issued for wrongful blocking. These are perfectly reasonable requests. JRHammond (talk) 07:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

July 2010

ANI--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 16:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Jiujitsuguy, everyone knows you have a personal vendetta against me because you are unable to challenge the fact and logic of my arguments demonstrating that your insistence that the lede should endorse one viewpoint in violation of WP:NPOV, so instead you work to have me blocked and otherwise silenced. Why don't you try answering the facts I've given you on the Talk page? In the interests of ending the edit warring you've been engaging in, I've also repeatedly requested editors -- yourself included -- review the paragraph as it currently exists and express approval or disapproval, and if the latter, explain any objection and alternative suggestion. Responding to that reasonable request of mine might be a more productive use of your time than trying to get me blocked or banned. It's instructive you choose the latter in lieu of the former. I hope the administrators take notice of that and see through your childish games. Cheers. JRHammond (talk) 01:21, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Links for Six Day War Material

I added links to Oren's book and the UK CAB file on the article talk page. The other sources already had links. FYI the declassified UK Cabinet files from 1915-1979 are available online at the UK National Archives as free .pdf downloads. You have to use their "shopping cart system", but you pay nothing. There are thousands of documents, but only a handful have static links. harlan (talk) 20:17, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the resources, Harlan. JRHammond (talk) 01:22, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-07-11/Six-Day War

I've closed out the case because there's been far too much arguing on the case page already. If you are sincere in seeing this case mediated I will have a crack at it but 1) it needs to be resubmitted, 2) all concerned parties should be notified on their talk pages and on the article talk page so they can chime in on if they are interested in mediation and 3) there needs to be a commitment to mediate. If one or all of you are looking for someone to take your side in an edit war you've come to the wrong place. If you are interested in trying to work out differences so all POV can be included I will be happy to help. --Wgfinley (talk) 00:37, 25 July 2010 (UTC)