Revision as of 14:48, 3 August 2010 editGregJackP (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers24,866 edits →Objection to involved admin Lar's proposed close: add diff← Previous edit | Revision as of 14:53, 3 August 2010 edit undoWilliam M. Connolley (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers66,008 edits →Objection to involved admin Lar's proposed close: redact pointless snipingNext edit → | ||
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I object to Lar's proposal of a quorem of two, given that both "factions," according to Lar, have readily available sycophants who will gladly support whatever nonsense their cofactioneers propose, without doing any substantive due dilligence. I propose that to add any tag, someone needs to get approval of said tag from a fully distant editor - that means no "uninvolved like lar" admin, but rather some random, saying that said tag is appropriate. Such editors can frequently be found at ], or ]. ] (]) 12:37, 3 August 2010 (UTC) | I object to Lar's proposal of a quorem of two, given that both "factions," according to Lar, have readily available sycophants who will gladly support whatever nonsense their cofactioneers propose, without doing any substantive due dilligence. I propose that to add any tag, someone needs to get approval of said tag from a fully distant editor - that means no "uninvolved like lar" admin, but rather some random, saying that said tag is appropriate. Such editors can frequently be found at ], or ]. ] (]) 12:37, 3 August 2010 (UTC) | ||
::Do you mean "quorum"? |
::Do you mean "quorum"? ] (]) 14:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)] Regards, <span style="border:1px solid #900;padding:2px;background:#ffc">] ]</span> 14:44, 3 August 2010 (UTC) | ||
: Agree. Also note Lar's invalid moving of comments ] (]) 12:40, 3 August 2010 (UTC) | : Agree. Also note Lar's invalid moving of comments ] (]) 12:40, 3 August 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:53, 3 August 2010
ShortcutThis board is for users to request enforcement under the terms of the climate change article probation. Requests should take the following format:
{{subst:Climate Sanction enforcement request | User against whom enforcement is requested = <Username> | Sanction or remedy that this user violated = ] | Diffs of edits that violate it, and an explanation how they do so <!-- When providing several diffs, please use a numbered list as in this example. --> =<p> # <Explanation> # <Explanation> # <Explanation> # ... | Diffs of prior warnings =<p> # Warning by {{user|<Username>}} # Warning by {{admin|<Username>}} # ... | Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction) = <Your text> | Additional comments = <Your text> }}
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Suspected Scibaby sockpuppets
Following discussion at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement#Scibaby and enablers, this section is established to list active suspected Scibaby sockpuppets. This list is merely a courtesy to other editors active in this topic area, and does not replace Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Scibaby. Please remove accounts that have been blocked or were listed in error. Accounts listed here are probably sockpuppets of a banned user, and may be reverted on sight. Any editor in good standing may "adopt" an edit that in his or her considered opinion improves an article, subject to common editing norms. The utmost care should be exercised to avoid listing accounts in error, and any mistakes should be promptly recognized and rectified.
Request concerning William M. Connolley and Kim D. Petersen
Close as stale, no further action taken. ++Lar: t/c 22:42, 1 August 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Discussion concerning William M. Connolley and Kim D. PetersenStatement by William M. ConnolleyStatement by Kim D. PetersenMy comments on the talk page should stand by themselves. As for Cla68's claims: No i haven't fought for inclusion. No, i do not have a "long history of BLP abuse". This is a simple content dispute, which is being blown extremely out of proportion. I disagree about the BLP claim (and still do), and strangely enough, this matches rather precisely some principles that i wrote down for the ArbCom case, but didn't submit, since it became obvious that ArbCom would not make content or policy decisions - but rather focus on behaviour: Here. Since it is 1:47 AM in my timezone, i will probably not reply anymore, unless i can't fall asleep. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:48, 20 July 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning William M. Connolley and Kim D. PetersenThis is an unreasonable request. The material in question is the claim that someone called Abraham made a presentation criticising the views of someone called Monckton. I kid you not, that's it. No-one has proposed giving any details of the presentation. This is not liked by several editors, but it seems to be common ground that it is true and verifiable. In other words, there is nothing contentious here and therefore no BLP issue. If anyone wants to see a genuine BLP breach regarding the subject of this article, I can very easily give a demonstration of what one would look like, so that you can tell the difference for future reference. --FormerIP (talk) 23:40, 20 July 2010 (UTC) Clearly a violation of a number of Misplaced Pages policies. First, it was a self-published source, in addition to being a primary source. Second, the source accused the subject of the article of making up a false quote, clearly against BLP policy unless. The entire presentation was an attack piece. The BLP policy states to Remove immediately any contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced; that is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see No original research); that relies on self-published sources, unless written by the subject of the BLP (see below)... The self-published source, in and of itself is grounds for removal. GregJackP Boomer! 00:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Guys, the admins aren't going to rule on anything (except the most egregious conduct and this isn't it) with ArbCom about to announce their proposed decision. Face it, the probation has come to a screeching halt. I suggest that the filer withdraw this RfE. BTW, ArbCom asked us to take a break from these articles, so I don't understand why anyone's working on them right now. Find some other articles to work on. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Look, I have a solution for everyone. Please click this link and improve the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
@Wordsmith: There hasn't been a ruling from the admins for the last 7 RfEs. Not only has there not been a ruling, there aren't even any admins discussing the issues. Not one active discussion. Sorry if I've broken some protocol by pointing out the obvious. If I have, let me know, and I'll redact. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
As is his wont, Cla68 has included a long string of diffs many of which are of little or no relevance. Administrators handling the case should be careful to examine each diff. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:30, 21 July 2010 (UTC) I agree that BLP doesn't allow the Abraham comment. But this is a content dispute. It should be raised at BLP/N, not here. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:36, 22 July 2010 (UTC) Lar is not an uninvolved adminLar, being in an adversarial role to both KDP and WMC in the Great Climate Change Omnibus Case of 2010, where he explicitly proposes a topic ban for KDP and a year-long ban for WMC , is not neutral by either the common sense definition of the word, by previous ArbCom precedence, or by the definition in Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 05:56, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
This is again a case of "Lar is involved because I say he is involved" where the RFC/U did not arrive at such a conclusion. I guess if people claim it is true it becomes true? An interesting thesis. Collect (talk) 11:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Question for those who think this is not a BLP vioSeveral (Geni, NW, Wordsmith, BozMo) have questioned whether this really is a BLP vio. I would like them to justify here why it is not. Specifically, answer these two questions: (1) is the material contentious? (2) is it self-published? If you respond yes to both, then it's a slam dunk as far as BLP concerned: it is to be removed immediately. If you respond no, then please explain your reasoning. Note that the material in question triggered legal action, and was only ever "published" on Abraham's personal webpage at the university. ATren (talk) 13:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
ChrisO: You're also edit-warring over contentious material in a BLP: A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:25, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Note: ChrisO added the contested source back in. MN reverted, WMC reverted, MN reverted, MN got blocked, and SirFozzie protected. At least he protected with the contested source out, but it's a shame it had to come to this. If Marknutley added an unpublished criticism of the hockey stick from a skeptic scientist to Michael Mann's BLP, he'd be immediately sanctioned. But he's sanctioned for removing a bad source here. It's a joke. But this will be my last comment on the matter; it's not worth the trouble anymore. I've spent 3 years battling these same half dozen editors on obvious BLP transgressions, and nobody seems to care. So I don't either. ATren (talk) 00:59, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
@ NW, in response to his comments below and elsewhere: NW, either you accept the wording of WP:BLPSPS, or you don't. If you don't accept it, argue your case at the WP:BLP talk page; but while WP:BLP policy stands as it is, this was a WP:BLP violation by the letter and spirit of that policy. Arguing otherwise is, with respect, the equivalent of putting your head in the sand. --JN466 10:43, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Topic restI agree with Lar (below) that all parties to the recent BLP incidents in the CC area should give CC BLPs a rest until the arbcom decision. I don't agree with some sort of oddly contrived sanction to enforce this, maybe it could be enforced for the parties involved in the recent edit war on the Monkton article but to cast this wider as a sanction would be an over the top and messy solution for the sake of just a day or two. I come to this conclusion because it is just getting crazy following all the twists and turns and not at all helpful in any way. I still think Lar should not be commenting in the section below. Polargeo (talk) 15:26, 23 July 2010 (UTC) Result concerning William M. Connolley and Kim D. Petersen
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ChrisO is seeking enforcement directly from NW
Closed: Not formatted as request. Vsmith (talk) 15:04, 27 July 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
FYI: . I am posting it here because I believe NW acted inappropriately before in blocking MN, and thus ChrisO approaching him directly is also inappropriate. ChrisO should bring it here, not go directly to a friendly admin. ATren (talk) 21:21, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
LessHeard vanU, before you start making observations regarding your status in this probation, please recall that I first contacted you to take a look at possible violations of the probation, and I don't think anybody would describe me as "of the skeptical persuasion" (in the colloquial sense, although of course I adopt a skeptical outlook regarding all science) on climate change. You say "it's a foolish admin who acts unilaterally", but that doesn't make any sense at all. All admin actions are, perforce, unilateral, and this probation is specifically intended to encourage admins to take action. "Wide consensus" on specific admin actions is explicitly not required. I'll stop there because it's pretty obvious that I can't make sense of your reasoning in the context. --TS 01:02, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Is this going anywhere useful? I suggest that "The regulars" refrain from going directly to admins for anything that might be viewed as in any way not completely uncontroversial, and that the admins, if someone happens to turn up, decline to act unilaterally and suggest the matter be brought here for discussion. Doing those things avoids the suggestion of impropriety and lets this process work. ++Lar: t/c 02:34, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
What we've got here is a process for wikilawyering. If it worked to make things better, there would not be an arbitration case. You've been around long enough to know that consensus is not necessarily aided by inserting a bureaucratic process in between problems and decisions. Doing so would only have been conceivably necessary if there was a pre-existing problem of admins taking ill-advised actions. In fact the opposite was (and still is) the case. Few admins will touch this area. --TS 03:05, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
This whole thread is a waste off time. Close it, and send ATren off with a flea in his ear William M. Connolley (talk) 07:59, 27 July 2010 (UTC) |
Request concerning MarkNutley and BigK HeX
Close as stale, no further action taken. ++Lar: t/c 22:43, 1 August 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Diffs of edits that violate it, and an explanation how they do so =
Discussion concerning Mark Nutley and BigK HeXStatement by Mark NutleyI have been tidying this article up for a couple of days, removing obviously unreliable sources for a BLP Blog Blog PR Watch and tagging others such as this Tagging deadlinks fixing deadlinks using wayback And also removing Primary Sources . I was surprised that BK began to reinsert the obviously bad ref`s back in and reverted him. Note my edit summary . BLP is quite clear on this, any content poorly sourced must be removed. Reverting these out does not count as reverts. That article is still full of primary sources which need to be removed. mark nutley (talk) 13:06, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Statement by BigK HeXI'm just amazed on so many levels.... A 1RR editor is reporting himself ... after three reverts? And, it also seems pretty silly for this report to be submitted looking like this, and the editor apparently going off to bed or whatever. I guess, most importantly, I have no clue why I'm in any report here, as I was unaware of any sanctions going on with the climate stuff. I'm somewhat annoyed to be in this request for enforcement, when, apparently, mark nutley's comments indicate that he is aware that this is new to me .BigK HeX (talk) 06:36, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Anyways, it started to become clear that my disagreement could quickly escalate into a strange edit war over leaving the article less sourced, so I decided that it would defuse the situation to find alternative sources and start an RSN, which has indeed seemed to remove the contention discussed here. BigK HeX (talk) 17:05, 24 July 2010 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning Mark Nutley and BigK HeXThis is pretty clearly both a BLP violation and a 3RR violation by BigK HeX. The sources are not RS, in that one is a blog and the advocacy group cite is to a press release. None are acceptable for a BLP, especially when it is negative information. MN is in compliance of his 1RR due to the fact that he was reverting a crystal clear BLP vio. There is no such explanation for the reverts by BH. GregJackP Boomer! 12:41, 24 July 2010 (UTC) In the real encyclopedia, MN would be fully in the right here, but this article actually resides in Bizarro Misplaced Pages, where wrong is right and right is wrong. In Bizarro Misplaced Pages, poor sourcing is encouraged, BLP doesn't apply, and enforcing BLP policy gets you blocked. In this particular example, MN removed blog sources for criticism, which is a big no-no in Bizarro Misplaced Pages. Blog sources for criticism are the foundation of Bizarro Misplaced Pages, where RealClimate is the New York Times and The Times itself is considered unreliable and unusable. Mark should know this, and I hope he gets a nice healthy block for his transgressions. ATren (talk) 14:04, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
MN has a point about some of the sources being introduced in this article. However, I question whether this is the right forum, as the article involves someone who comments on many subjects, not just climate change. Do we use these enforcement forums every time someone breathes a worth on the subject and there's an edit that is objectionable? Must every content dispute end up here? ScottyBerg (talk) 16:01, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Agree with Lar's proposed close. Arkon (talk) 23:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure that this is stale. BigK HeX is continuing to harrass Marknutley, repeatedly accusing MN of misconduct on an article talk page: A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:30, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning BigK HeX and Mark Nutley
Suggest a close, no action, as stale. At this point is there anything else we could do? I doubt it. I will do so barring any objection in the next 24 hours. ++Lar: t/c 18:58, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
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Viriditas
Closed as A Quest For Knowledge said he would withdraw once Viriditas had restored his comment. 19:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Viriditas
Discussion concerning ViriditasStatement by ViriditasI did not change any "comments". I replaced a collapsed list that was disrupting the layout of an RfC discussion with a direct link to the list that already existed in user space, preserving the format of the RfC. Problem was explained to user but user refused to acknowledge or fix it in any way. A compromise was proposed after further discussion, and yet again, user refused to address the issue except to issue multiple threats to file a RfE against me. Viriditas (talk) 13:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning ViriditasThin skins abound. Both parties to this conflict are in the wrong. Hipocrite (talk) 14:14, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Viriditas
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Article tags
Fake timestamp so this doesn't get archived prematurely: 22:27, 9 August 2010 (UTC) I am getting sick and tired of people edit warring over things like {{POV}} and other cleanup tags. Therefore, for a two week period, all editors are prohibited from adding or removing any tags listed here or those that are related to those tags, broadly construed. This restriction may be bypassed through local article talk consensus. If you feel that an article is not neutral, then either fix it or talk about it on the talk page.
Violation of this sanction will result in first a notification of the existence of this sanction, and then a block if edit warring continues. NW (Talk) 22:27, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Discussion
Speaking as someone who's been entirely uninvolved in tagging articles, I have to say I find it annoying when people on both sides fight over tags and waste their time (and that of others) squabbling about it. The sanction is clearly necessary, so thank you for this intervention. However, it's ridiculous that it's got to the point of needing a sanction. A number of editors really need to raise their game. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds like common sense to me. Edit warring over something like this is silly. Discussion on the talk page is usually the way to go for putting tags up in an article. If the editors don't agree then the tag gets put up until there is enough editors agreeing that the article is fixed and the tags get removed. Good call here. Good night everyone, --CrohnieGal 23:22, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- From what I've seen of the tag warring, it often seems to be a matter of one editor slapping a "badge of shame" on an article against the wishes of the other editors. It's not remotely a productive way to operate. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Fine by me. The underlying problem remains, of course - that tags are being used for hostabe and revenge, sometimes explicitly - but this is probably a good solution for now William M. Connolley (talk) 07:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Working on the underlying "waring" and battleground behavior would be a better effort. See Misplaced Pages:WAR#How_experienced_editors_avoid_being_dragged_into_edit_wars which recommends applying tags. If there is a tag dispute, then there is a dispute to be peacefully resolved. Tags are less harmful harmless than mean spirited reverters (like WMC, who should be on self imposed zero revert by now). This proposal assumes the status quo is best for Misplaced Pages, which i find difficult to accept. This can be a better place when revert wars are disarmed. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 05:04, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- I disagree with this unilateral move. Tagging an article as POV is entirely appropriate and the only way to get movement on some articles. I do not condone edit warring, but that is a separate issue from the tags, and can be appropriately addressed in other ways. GregJackP Boomer! 10:59, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- I support it. It gets rid of some of the useless bickering, baiting, and pointiness. Tagging is useful to mark articles where problems otherwise might go unrecognized. Fat chance of that in the climate change articles, where essentially any tag will be followed by a fierce discussion anyways. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Tags are for the benefit of the readership, as well as editors. Disallowing a tag can (not always, but can) do the readership a disservice. Stats show that many readers do not visit article talk space. ++Lar: t/c 11:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yes but nobody is disallowing tags. If there is either a consensus or no objection that a tag is needed on the talkpage then one can be added. At the moment tags are being used to fight battles and this needs to stop. Polargeo (talk) 11:59, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Tags are for the benefit of the readership, as well as editors. Disallowing a tag can (not always, but can) do the readership a disservice. Stats show that many readers do not visit article talk space. ++Lar: t/c 11:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- In general, I would suggest the presence of a tag is far less a problem than the removal of a tag. For POV tags especially, the fact that an editor believes POV exists should be presumed correct - no single editor or editors can decide POV is not a problem in an article. Tags are aimed at alerting readers to problems which might be in an article - they are not just for editors (who, presumably, are aware of article problems without tags.) WP:TAGGING] is useful here. In general, you should not remove the NPOV dispute tag merely because you personally feel the article complies with NPOV is sound advice. Collect (talk) 11:23, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- In general you are spot on. I agree if a significant number of editors feel that an NPOV tag is needed it does not matter if there is complete consensus for it, the tag should be there until the issue is resolved through compromise. That is not the same as an editor slapping an NPOV tag on an article as part of a content battle, which is what is happening in climate change. Polargeo (talk) 12:03, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Lar's proposal, by contrast, is junk and would make things worse. Throw it out William M. Connolley (talk) 12:37, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, Lar's solution is better than the original option. GregJackP Boomer! 13:57, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds like a thoroughly horrible idea, but I see no better way to save people from themselves. People keep getting dragged into edit wars over this. This can lead to enforcement issues or page protection. Neither of these really gets us to a better encyclopaedia. Guettarda (talk) 13:30, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Why did it suddenly become a problem?
The WMC faction has been gaming the POV tags for months -- look at Lawrence Solomon for an example. Now all of a sudden it's a huge problem because I tagged one of their heros, Michael E. Mann. I'm suddenly accused of "revenge tagging" (yes, really) because I tagged Mann for not having a single substantive criticism of the hockey stick even while the WMC faction is edit warring to include some guy's private rant in Monckton's BLP. This entire topic area is a parody of what Misplaced Pages should be, with the WMC faction constantly attacking the only two truly neutral admins here (Lar and LHvU) while obvious faction defenders like NW are creating new sanctionable offenses at the behest of the faction.
I would like to know what is inappropriate about adding a tag to an article in which criticism from published books and newspapers like the WSJ have been suppressed for months. Similarly, I would like to know what's wrong with untagging an article which hadn't had a single talk page comment in 3 weeks. Because those were the two things I did which triggered this royal proclamation from NW, and neither is problematic in the slightest. ATren (talk) 12:28, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- It would be nice if you could leave you hatred at the door. There is no "WMC faction", and if you think there is, you should have presented evidence of same to Arbcomm. Please try to avoid hijacking every thread with the same tired spam. You're accused of revenge tagging because you've quite blatantly done it William M. Connolley (talk) 12:34, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- In 10 minutes, I found multiple published criticisms of Mann and his hockey stick, and until yesterday barely a whisper of controversy was in the article. I looked through the history and found your faction consistently deleting that criticism. So I put the tag up. Later I added the material, and predictably, one of your faction whitewashed it, keeping the source but not the details. So I added the tag again. This is how it's supposed to work, but ever since your faction got a stranglehold on this topic area, everything is upside down, and suddenly we have "neutral" admins decreeing that tagging is now an offense -- even though your faction has been gaming the tags on Lawrence Solomon for months. Typical Bizarro World enforcement here, where blatant POV pushing from your faction gets a pass while new transgressions are invented to squelch the editors trying to fix the damage you've done. ATren (talk) 12:54, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- ATren, I'm getting very tired of these constant accusations of "alarmist factions", "whitewashing" and biased admins. I'm obviously not the only one who feels that way. Please tone it down. -- ChrisO (talk) 13:02, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- See WP:SPADE. ATren (talk) 13:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- See also WP:TE: "You find yourself repeating the same argument over and over again, without persuading people." Might be time to drop the stick or file that RFC you were talking about.
- ATren found trash by Steve Milloy which he seems to think suitbale for inclusion ni a BLP. Which speaks for itself William M. Connolley (talk) 13:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Seems to me that it would be just as appropriate as anything from RealClimate. GregJackP Boomer! 14:34, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- ATren found trash by Steve Milloy which he seems to think suitbale for inclusion ni a BLP. Which speaks for itself William M. Connolley (talk) 13:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- See also WP:TE: "You find yourself repeating the same argument over and over again, without persuading people." Might be time to drop the stick or file that RFC you were talking about.
- See WP:SPADE. ATren (talk) 13:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- ATren, I'm getting very tired of these constant accusations of "alarmist factions", "whitewashing" and biased admins. I'm obviously not the only one who feels that way. Please tone it down. -- ChrisO (talk) 13:02, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- It was the edit war yesterday that made me add this sanction, yes. I also remember this issue coming up on multiple other pages, including Climatic Research Unit email controversy. The reason I added this sanction was not to protect my favorite version of any article (indeed, I did not know which articles had tags and which didn't when I applied it), but more because I felt generally frustrated with how they were being used as battleground ammunition. NW (Talk) 13:24, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- I would agree that tag strikes are on the rise. I had a non-climate change article trolled by CC regulars, tag bombed and put to fierce scrutiny by a nomination for deletion deadline. This is after the drive by tagger offered no talk and tagged. The level of malicious intent toward others, is to be a cause for concern. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 13:45, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- He means Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ngawang Tenzin Rinpoche and he is effectively calling me a malicious troll, not that I care. Polargeo (talk) 13:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Wasn't there a recent case here where a warning about the use of statements like "WMC faction" was the resolution? Ravensfire (talk) 14:29, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Objection to involved admin Lar's proposed close
I object to Lar's proposal of a quorem of two, given that both "factions," according to Lar, have readily available sycophants who will gladly support whatever nonsense their cofactioneers propose, without doing any substantive due dilligence. I propose that to add any tag, someone needs to get approval of said tag from a fully distant editor - that means no "uninvolved like lar" admin, but rather some random, saying that said tag is appropriate. Such editors can frequently be found at WP:NPOVN, or WP:BLPN. Hipocrite (talk) 12:37, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Do you mean "quorum"? Regards, GregJackP Boomer! 14:44, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Agree. Also note Lar's invalid moving of comments William M. Connolley (talk) 12:40, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Half WP:CREEP, and half an attempt to cement factions? Horrible, effectively unpatrolable, and an invitation for honest mistakes to be blown into wikidrama. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Whether Lar is involved or not is beside the point. His idea is a formula for gridlock, and for every single Climate Change article being slapped with an unwarranted NPOV tag forever. That benefits only the most extreme voices on both sides, and is a formula for endless bickering and wikilawyering. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Article Tags
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators and is not to be used by others to conduct discusson or debate. Comments by non-admins, and any discussion or debate by other than uninvolved administrators, will be moved to the section above. Adminstrators engaged in extended discussion or debate, especially if not directly related to the proposed outcome, should strongly consider using the above sections.
- I'm not sure there's necessarily consensus for this unilateral imposition among uninvolved admins. I'm not necessarily opposed but I'd like to see that consensus. I do have concerns about disallowing tagging which is a valuable and normally routine thing to do. ++Lar: t/c 10:48, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- I think it is a good move and I support it. I also think under thr original probation terms this kind of unilateral action by an uninvolved admin was what people had in mind so it is legit. However, I agree since then practice has proven more about consensus. I would be happy providing a post hoc blessing in this case --BozMo talk 11:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- After some thought, I have a compromise proposal to put forward that I think addresses the edit warring aspect without removing the benefit of appropriate placement or removal. It's my view that by default, it should be easier to place a tag than to remove it. It's unfortunately more complicated. Here goes:
- For the duration of this sanction, placement of a tag requires that two editors who participate in editing the article support it. (so that it's not just one person's view) Tags placed that do not receive such support are subject to immediate removal by anyone until they do. (thus if I placed a tag, it could be instantly removed, and only after talk page discussion including two editors that did edit would it be restorable without sanction... placing it of course would move me to involved :) ) Tag removal of validly placed tags cannot occur less than 24 hours after placement and cannot occur unless there is a clear and overwhelming consensus that the problem identified has been resolved. Such consensus should be among a quorum of all the editors who have recently (within 2 weeks) edited the article in any way (even vandal reversion or typo fixes). Notification of editors that there is a discussion is permitted but not required. If notification is done, it should be per our standards, neutral, and it should be to all editors eligible to form that quorum, not a subset, excepting only editors already discussing the matter.
- Smith away. ++Lar: t/c 12:32, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Too subject to wikilawyering and too bureaucratic, in my opinion. I would prefer the temporary blanket ban with exceptions once something has concretely been established to be a problem. The point of my sanction was not to prevent tags from being used at all, but to prevent them from being used as a battleground behavior. This modification I fear would not be able to hold up. NW (Talk) 13:28, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Your proposal makes it exactly as hard to add as to remove. That's wrong. Adding needs to be easier than removing, per long standing practice. Modify your proposal to tilt that way and I'll support it. As written, sorry, but no. Consensus of course may go against me which is fine. ++Lar: t/c 13:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Too subject to wikilawyering and too bureaucratic, in my opinion. I would prefer the temporary blanket ban with exceptions once something has concretely been established to be a problem. The point of my sanction was not to prevent tags from being used at all, but to prevent them from being used as a battleground behavior. This modification I fear would not be able to hold up. NW (Talk) 13:28, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
AN/I issue
No action - leave it for ArbCom to decide Jehochman 04:03, 3 August 2010 (UTC) |
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I should flag up the fact that I've raised an issue at AN/I - see WP:AN/I#Malicious sabotage of RSN comments by Cla68. Since this noticeboard has completely broken down - every request gets closed as stale - I've taken it there, particularly as the issue needs to be dealt with quickly. -- ChrisO (talk) 02:02, 3 August 2010 (UTC) |