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Ireland Start‑class High‑importance

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"County Dublin" vs. "Dublin Region"

I have reverted to the use of County Dublin as this is the name of this article and also the more common name of the region. I have placed Dublin Region in prominance and also a redirect to the article for this variation as it is an uncommon, but none-the-less a valid term. If anyone disagrees I suggest they submitt a formal move request before any radical changes. Djegan 19:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I have reverted the main map back to a map showing the county without any borders (it may take some time to go thru the system) and in addition I have placed a map of the county (Dublin Region) numbering its component city and counties in detail. Theirfore both the traditional (County Dublin) and the reality (Dublin Region) should be presented as clearly as possible. Djegan 22:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Request Page Move

In light of the most recent changes, I propose that “County Dublin” be moved to “Dublin Region”: I think that if a “County Dublin” article cannot be maintained without adding further confusion to an already tenuous issue then the article should not exist. The statement “County Dublin, or more correctly the Dublin Region” is watered down to ambiguity – a title is either correct or it isn’t. Describing in detail the cessation of the county, the main text of the article says nothing to qualify why “County” should still be in the title of Dublin at all, and so the numerous references now read as contradictory/confusing. The only justifiable reason why “County” should even be in the title of the page itself is so people can find the article, but if that now means that the article itself has to be altered to reflect the erroneous title then a page move and the set up of necessary re-directs is the sensible alternative. There’s no reason why a “Dublin Region” article couldn’t explain that County Dublin is used as an alternate title, but the accuracy should come first (i.e. article name/banner headings) and the necessary explanations follow. I wouldn’t mind but the entire article is just about how the area is not a county anymore, there is no other meaningful information that would justify keeping the article under its current heading. Also, there is no justification for removing the map divisions, especially if the article is saying “more correctly, the Dublin Region.” Indeed, that is the reality, the map should not conflict with the text.

LocGov 14:10, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Voting

Against proposed move, whilst agree that the article must effectively articulate that County Dublin does not remain as an administrative entity the county is a focus of loyality in culture and sport none-the-less and is more commonly used term within and outside of Ireland. Djegan 19:11, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Against, for the reasons cited by DJ, and also because the "Dublin Region" is a different sort of thing. Misplaced Pages has articles on all the Irish counties, in their traditional forms. This includes Tipperary, for example. There are good reasons for having these articles, as indicated by DJEgan above.

Dublin Region, however, is what is technically termed a "NUTS 3" region: that is, a level of territorial administrative division common across the EU. In the case of Ireland, the powers of the administrative organs of these regions are very limited, but they are of some further significance because government policy, if I remember correctly, indicates that regional administrative divisions in the public services generally should correspond to the NUTS 3 regions. But the Dublin Region isn't the same sort of thing as County Dublin: it is the same sort of thing as the Border Region, the Mid-East Region, etc. Whether these deserve articles or not is another question (they don't seem to have them at the moment), but the regional government structure, feeble though it is, should certainly be covered on Misplaced Pages.

However, any article on the Dublin Region (and articles on the other NUTS III regions) should be focussed on their role as administrative divisions of the country with particular functions.

For these reasons, I also disagree with the first sentence of the article's "more correctly, the Dublin Region". It's confusing two different kinds of entity.

However, there is also another a slight problem with the current article. It appears to be dealing with the traditional county rather than the former administrative county, which never included the Corporation area, but the discussion of the abolition of the administrative county doesn't make this clear. Palmiro | Talk 19:59, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I think these are very good points, and highlight problems in the article as it stands. County Dublin and the Dublin Region are not the same thing, despite the fact that the Dublin Region is co-terminous with the traditional County of Dublin -- but not with the old local authority area of County Dublin, which did not include the county borough. I think the County Dublin article should be primarily about what is generally understood by the term, i.e. the traditional county, one of 32 on the island. The local government issues can be dealt with within that context, i.e the history of the various local authorities which have administered various parts of the county, and the current situation with 3 county councils and one city council. We can also deal with non-government aspects of the county, such as sport and culture. --Ryano 12:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Against - we would be jumping ahead of standard usage, wherein "County Dublin" still has a definite meaning. "Dublin Region" is either ambiguous or refers to a different type of entity, as Palmiro notes above. --Ryano 21:30, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Against - i agree with the statements above, espically by that of Ryano. While County Dublin is no longer an administrative unit, having been devolved into the 3 new administrative units that have county level status, County Dublin still refers to a geographical unit, the traditional County Dublin. Second Dublin Region is to ambiguous of a term, that could just as easily, but not wt the current time, refer to areas that outside of the area of County Dublin but maintain strong ties to the area, developing into a metropolitan area.

--Boothy443 |  trácht ar 20:46, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Against - "County Dublin" is more appropriate. While it has no administrative role, the county still has relevance in many other organisational structures, not least postally, retains its history and has more symbolic meaning to the residents of Fingal, etc. Besides, Dublin Region would be inappropriate as that phrase often includes Counties Wicklow, Kildare and Meath. jlang 17:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Against - "County Dublin" should stay. If there was such as thing as the Dublin administrative region then a page could set up listing the areas including in that region and what is function was. Roger g 20:38, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stefán Ingi 00:06, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I've removed this page's entry from Misplaced Pages:Requested moves due to a lack of consensus on the move. If this changes, feel free to add another request. --Lox (t,c) 16:23, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Towns and Suburbs section

I have noticed that Maynooth is included in the towns and suburbs section. Is this section supposed to be a definitive list of urban areas in Co. Dublin itself, or those in the area as well as the suburban areas outside it? I believe that it should be a list of only the areas within the Dublin region, and so I am removing Maynooth. If anyone wishes to change it to list other suburbs outside Co. Dublin which are considered suburbs feel free to do so. —This unsigned comment was added by Dmitrysimpson (talk • contribs) .

I agree, considering that the name of the article is County Dublin, it should refer to those arease within County Dublin, considering that Maynooth is in County Kildare it should not be listed on the page. Even if the article refered to the Dublin Region, technicaly speaking, the Dublin Region is still only County Dublin. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:02, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

"the modern counties of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, Fingal and South Dublin"

They aren't counties!!

Um, yes, they are, under Irish law. Bastun 14:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Needed - a "History" section

It is surprising to me that this article does not have a History section. Why is this?Peter Clarke 08:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Still no History section! When was the county first created? by whom? what changes to its borders? etc... See County Cork for a good example of what should be here.PeterClarke 22:30, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Tradional counties of Ireland

User RA has recently restored terms about the "traditional" 32 counties of Ireland. This seems to be in pursuance of the irredentist position put forward in his contributions on the WikiProject Ireland discussion . That discussion talked itself into exhaustion. No agreement was reached. It seems that RA thinks it gives him carte blanche to pursue his POV that there are 32 counties in the island of Ireland at this time. Should such claims not feature in the main body of the article? Should they not be removed from the lead? Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:23, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

And its Laurel Lodged POV that there are 29 Counties. Do a quick poll among your family and friends, asking how may counties in Ireland, and see how many answer 29? Here is some info from the citizens informations website: "There are 29 County Councils in Ireland with a total of 753 members. There is at least one Council for each county. Dublin county has 3 Councils including South Dublin County Council, Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and Fingal County Council. Tipperary county has 2 councils; North and South Tipperary. " They clearly distinguish between Counties and County councils. Interesting! Snappy (talk) 17:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The "traditional" counties no longer exist officially. They were replaced by administrative counties by legislation that came into effect in 1994. Legilsation that split County Dublin into three. These "administrative" counties also no longer exist now as they were replaced with County Councils and City Councils in 2001. Just because the vast majority share the same boundaries and names as the old counties, doesn't make them one and the same. Just like the creation of baronies in Ireland during the Elizabethan Age - most were based on boundaries and names of local Irish tuaths/kingdoms - but they weren't local Irish tuaths/kingdoms afterwards. "Traditional" counties is an outdated concept held onto by people stuck in the past or unwittingly ignorant of the modern-day situation or hold onto romantic notions. Mabuska 23:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

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