Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:34, 6 February 2006

This page is to record attempts by Wiki medical editors to suppress links to the website www.whale.to

the main medical editor doing this is JFW | T@lk

Baloney. It's not the criticsm we're suppressing, it's whale.to. JFW | T@lk 11:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC)http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Jfdwolff

And no, I am not a spokesperson here (only Jimbo Wales is). I am simply repeating the above views of several editors. And indeed all the articles on whale are not acceptable. Tabeh. JFW | T@lk 11:30, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Welcome to the Misplaced Pages!

Welcome to the Misplaced Pages, Whaleto! And thanks for helping intone an informed note on the Wiki's medical articles. Hope you enjoy editing here and becoming a Wikipedian! Here are some perfunctory tips to hasten your acculturation into the Misplaced Pages experience:

• Take a look at the Misplaced Pages Tutorial and Manual of Style.
• When you have time, take a look at The five pillars of Misplaced Pages, and Assume good faith, but keep in mind the unique style you brought to the Wiki!
• Always keep the notion of NPOV in mind, be respectful of others' POV, and remember your unique perspective on the meaning of neutrality is invaluable!
• If you need any help, post your question at the Help Desk.
• Explore, be bold in editing, and, above all else, have fun!

Some odds and ends: Boilerplate text, Brilliant prose, Cite your sources, Civility, Conflict resolution, How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Pages needing attention, Peer review, Policy Library, Utilities, Verifiability, Village pump, Wikiquette, and you can sign your name on any page by typing 4 tildes: ~~~~.

Best of luck, Whaleto, and have fun! Ombudsman 23:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Ombudsman probably did not notice that I inserted a shorter welcome before. Well, never mind. Nice to know John is very welcome to Misplaced Pages. JFW | T@lk 13:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Back at the ranch

Now back to the actual discussion. This all started because Misplaced Pages has a policy (WP:NPOV) that states explicitly that not every minority view needs mentioning. You can say what you want, but most information on whale.to is not widely accepted. There is no reason to presume that the "external links" section of articles should not fall under the aegis of this NPOV policy. Hence, links have been removed. So far there has been no indication that this has changed, and I see no reason why we should suddenly be including links to whale. Sorry. JFW | T@lk 20:47, 11 December 2005

Someone from 86.128.x.x keeps putting in a wacky link to "whale.to". David W. Hogg 14:49, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with 86.128.165.240 that information about vaccines and their side effects should not be suppressed. However, the whale.to link is not an appropriate source for this information because of the competing extremist information and conspiracy theories as outlined on the RFC on Talk:MMR vaccine. As already reviewed by InvictaHOG, the commentary on Illuminati mind control, Jewish conspiracy, genocide via vaccination, Roman Catholics, psychic assassins, Mormons, Walter Cronkite, demons sacrificing girls for growth hormone, or links to alien implant removers distracts from the criticisms of vaccines and decreases the value of whale.to link. Andrew73 13:12, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

"One of my favorite guidelines on Misplaced Pages is to assume good faith. I have not lodged accusations against your motives and would appreciate it if you could return the favor. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia with user created content, not a mere collection of links. I hope you agree that pages like vaccine are better when contributors add well-referenced, NPOV prose instead of simply adding links. It would be a poor page if it were simply dominated by outside links with instructions to "go read, it's all there!" You are right about whale.to - the most important reason to reject it is because it is associated with paranoia. I don't believe that those with concerns about vaccination are necessarily paranoid and I don't think that they should be represented by a site which devolves into paranoia and name-calling." InvictaHOG 18:30, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Jfdwolff: "I'm not sure why you call me a "vaccinator" - I have never personally administered a vaccine, and the only vaccine I ever prescribe in my position is flu vaccine. Does that make me a "vaccinator"? Please avoid labeling people. I have had a look at your site, and I'm more than just shocked by its inflammatory language, talk about conspiracies, coverups, "medical fascism" and the "medical mafia", whatever that is supposed to mean. The fact that some "medical men" have joined your ranks and are the authors of your stuff is of marginal importance to the actual issue - the fact that in this world the views expressed on your site are indeed very fringe. If you were to ask a group of 100 people to read through your site, a large majority of them would find themselves in disagreement to most of the material presented. The rest would just be confused. I have no problem with significant views being represented. We have a long page on Andrew Wakefield, because his views are well known and are supported by a signficant minority. Similarly there would not be slightest problem with significant minority views being represented on other vaccine-related pages. Our neutrality policy (see WP:NPOV) clearly indicates that we do not need to include your views just because they are being held by a few people, even though some may have "M.D." behind their names. Having a website does not automatically indicate notability or significance. Misplaced Pages is not going to be a forum for your views. JFW | T@lk 15:14, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm by definition a vaccinator! Well well, we love labeling don't we. I think your website (and all your views for that matter) are not rational examinations of the evidence available put nasty personal vendettas that harm people in the long run. If I were in the business of "suppressing the anti-vaccine view" I'd be doing something completely different, namely editing the relevant articles in a biased fashion. But I'm not doing that. All I am doing is making sure your defamatory, confused and misinformed page does not get its traffic as a result of link placement in Misplaced Pages. I think an Alexa ranking of 1,000,000 a year is not very high and no sign that your page is notable. Today, 106,763 sites were getting more traffic than you. JFW | T@lk 15:04, 11 November 2005 (UTC)" http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Ombudsman&diff=prev&oldid=29203114

Use diffs

{{Welcome}} (you seem to know your way around, but welcome to your new username nonetheless).

John, you'd save yourself a lot of hassle if you simply used diffs (the URL generated by clicking "last" in the history screen). This actually reflects edits better than simply copy & pasting comments. For one thing, in the dispute resolution process, diffs are much preferred. JFW | T@lk 23:30, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

RE: Medical controversies

Please note this article is up for AfD you may want to review the article or it's discussion. xaosflux /_CVU 17:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

External links

Hi again John

Think you might find some issues less of a brick wall if you study this article which includes advice on links to external sites, (and my apologies if you have read it already).

Once the ground rules are known, it is often easier to concentrate on find a new and more effective (but perhaps less than obvious) methods of adding to the collective sum. You can then use all the same rules to defend your contributions.

Personally: Misplaced Pages requires me, to adopt a certain mind set, that is 'different' again, from the mind sets I use for other intranet knowledge bases or exploring out in cyberspace. (Now that's a thought: I wonder if anybody else finds they have to go into Wiki-mode before editing?)

Misplaced Pages might not be perfect -but at the moment I think this is as good as everyone can collectively get it. --Aspro 13:31, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

It is only to do with allopaths suppressing anything critical to allopathy, any other reason is just a cover story, which is why they want to delete the main anti-vaccinator, Viera Scheibner , and Vaccination critics . There is some spacious reason on that one. Lily Loat, the main anti-vax person a few years back got wiped out and directed to National Anti-Vaccination League . I suppose it will be only a matter of time before that gets deleted, although as it is in the past they may ignore it. john 22:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Whale.to

John, FYI, there's now a stub about your website Whale.to on Misplaced Pages! Andrew73 22:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but it wont last long! john 23:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussions on user pages

Hi, I would appreciate it if you would try to limit the vaccination related discussions to the individual pages instead of my user page. If you really want to have a conversation with people, my page is certainly not the place where all the cool kids hang out! InvictaHOG 23:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I guess it goes with being territory of being a hatchet man for allopathy. If you weren't suppressing all my links I'd have some sympathy. Surely you can delete it anyway. john 10:03, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I delete Whale links, no more explanation needed. It's not the content, it's the wrapper. InvictaHOG 18:10, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it's not an allopathic wrapper, for sure. Who ever cares about the wrapper, it's the content. Nice try, you can fool most of them with that sort of flannel. You'll enjoy my page to you, I'll enjoy making it. Thanks for the fun. john 22:54, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Identification of publications

Hi John -- when you add publications, please include identifying information. Harvard referencing is preferable, but at a minimum you need to include a year of publication, and a PMID or ISBN. Content that cannot be independently verified will be removed, and references without IDs are very difficult to independently verify. --Arcadian 17:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure, not sure what you are referring to, I took Harvard system to be peer reviewed, and most articles I use are magazine or media. I usually have the hard copy of anything I put on. john 20:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

• John, when you read something in the popular press, look up the actual research paper or clinical report that it reviews. Journalists have a duty to their editor and the editor has a duty to the owners of the business, and the business is there to make money. This creates distortions often big distortions. Make your own interpretation of the original source, and quote from these. See Journalism especially yellow journalism. For instance: The papers said the Wakefield's clinical report was retracted... Look at the Lancet and you will find nothing of the sort! That -I would have thought- was a factual inexactitude that you would have spotted, but not if you just read the Daily Blurb.--Aspro 21:18, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

John -- magazines are discouraged on medical pages because they aren't peer reviewed. However, if you feel you must include a magazine on occasion, then to be compliant with Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, you should include an ISSN (the equivalent of ISBNs for serial publications.) Publications without an ISSN, ISBN, or PMID are usually Self-published, don't meet the standards of Misplaced Pages:No original research, are inappropriate for inclusion in Misplaced Pages, and subject to removal. --Arcadian 16:32, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Second warning

John - this is your second warning that you are violating Misplaced Pages:Verifiability policy, for this edit. Please refrain from such edits in the future. --Arcadian 22:37, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

First of all, reliance primarily upon 'peer-reviewed' articles, if that is policy, violates the very nature of NPOV. Even the editor of JAMA or some such prestigious journal has lamented the outright bias of articles in his own publication, because the realm of medical journals is now rife with conflict of interest debacles, akin to bribery charges to which that heavyweight Republican lobbyist just pled guilty. Second, please don't be too hard on new editors. Ombudsman 23:46, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

If that is the policy that is the policy, but if you can't cite a book someone has written on the subject then I find that bizarre. It may look good on paper but peer review is mostly junk science, a BMJ editorial put the figure at 1% being scientifically sound. And if Wiki is read mostly by laypeople what use is is scientific jargon of peer review which is mostly junk to 99% of your readers? Viera Scheibner has read hundreds of peer review vaccine articles, so I would prefer to read her magazine article where she has translated and sorted the evidence. Peer review is the main doorkeeper for the medical industry as Duesberg pointed out.

"For the public ever to break command science it must first understand the basis of its enormous powers. The medical establishment derives these powers from three sources: (1) enforced consensus through peer review, (2) through commercialization, and (3) the fear of disease, particularly infectious disease. Traditionally, the power of medical sciences has been based on the fear of disease, particularly infectious disease."--Peter Deusberg (Inventing The AIDS Virus)

Is medical science so badly organised that most of the results of their clinical trials are invalid? To answer this question I quote from an editorial in the British Medical Journal in October 1991: "Where is the Wisdom...? The poverty of medical evidence" "…only about 15% of medical interventions are supported by solid scientific evidence… ...This is partly because only 1% of the articles in medical journals are scientifically sound". For cancer the figure is about 6%, not 15%. How is it that the peer review system, that determines which scientific papers are of sufficient quality to warrant publication, lets all these unsound papers through? To answer this question I quote from Tom Jefferson, from the Cochrane Collaboration’s Methods Group interviewed by the Guardian (UK) in January this year. He said: "If peer review were a medicine it would never get a licence…We had great difficulty in finding any real hard evidence of the system’s effectiveness, which is disappointing, as peer review is the cornerstone of editorial policies worldwide”. "An Assessment of Orthodox Treatments of Cancer" by Don Benjamin

"They did an investigation about how the pharmaceutical companies are funding all the research and spinning the trial results, so you can no longer really trust what you read in scientific journals. They pointed out that when they tried to get an expert to review the scientific literature related to antidepressants, they basically couldn't find someone who hadn't taken money from the drug companies." Psychiatric Drugs: An Assault on the Human Condition Street Spirit Interview with Robert Whitaker

"Vera Hassner Sharav, president of the Alliance for Human Research Protection, has been warning about such powers for years. The companies design the drug trials," Sharav says. "They select the subjects. They maintain and interpret the data. They select which parts get published. They choose who will become the reviewers in the prestigious medical journals. And they pick 'key opinion leaders,' who they pay handsomely" to promote the drugs. "It's perfect," she concludes. "They have it made."----Merck Move Shows Industry Adrift

John, I want to thank you for adding these ISBN numbers in your recent edits. I know it's not fun to have to go through the extra work of identifying your resources, but content that is sourced has a better chance of remaining in Misplaced Pages. --Arcadian 01:17, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The big pharma behind the curtains

• John, and Arcadian for that matter, you might want to take a look at CSMonitor.com report - 'A pill they won't swallow', to further enhance your understanding of the cultural influences in the medical field. And while you're at it, please take a look at Categories_for_deletion#Category:Medical_Controversies, to learn more about the notion that there are virtually no medical controversies, just a few scattered reports about medical superstitions, and about how such superstitions might be harmful to innocent Wiki readers who read about them. Ombudsman 01:35, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

There was no way they would allow that one, so I didn't bother with it, if you look at my medical hoax page you will see why, as 98% of orthodox medicine (allopathy) is based on a lie, and nutritional medicine and naturopathic herbalism could replace it at 2% of the cost, in a nutshell. john 09:11, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Ombudsman actually misrepresents the many reasons for deleting that category, but I suspect your keep vote is a foregone conclusion. There are actually so many medical controversies that listing them all would be completely pointless. But because it was created for anti-medicine trolling I thought I should cite that as the main reason for deleting it, QED. JFW | T@lk 09:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I have to say it would be a long job making that page, especially with the constant buthering from medical editors such as yourself, which was one reason why I created whale.to. It is not anti-medicine, you are confusing anti-allopathy with that. Like most allopaths you are fairly clueless about the bigger picture. john 14:38, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Arcadian. Removal of whale.to links

How do you account for removal of whale.to link on Vaccine controversy page? john 15:30, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

In light of the verdict at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Whale.to, I believe that removing those links is appropriate. Whale.to had a fair hearing, and most of the people who reviewed it considered it not to be appropriate for Misplaced Pages. However, you might want to take a look at Talk:MMR_vaccine#New_idea_and_compromise_on_Whale.to. InvictaHOG has proposed a compromise you might be interested in, involving Wikisource. --Arcadian 16:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't buy into that--'fair hearing' isn't exactly what goes on here. It is who can gather the most mates, essentially. And the only argument against is still ad hominem. john 16:24, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that way, but if you don't accept our Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines, I can't really be much help to you in the future. But if you don't read anything else, please read Misplaced Pages:Blocking_policy#Disruption. If you keep doing what you're doing, some admin is going to block your account and IP address. It won't be me -- I much prefer building things to administration. And I don't want you to get blocked. I think it is important that the case against vaccination be as clear and as well-sourced as possible. I'm not going to leave any more of these messages on your talk page, but before I go, I want to impress upon you one last time, that if you want your voice to be heard, you need to read, understand, and comply with our Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines. --Arcadian 17:11, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Verdict? Could you provide a link that supports any notion other than that a valid consensus was not reached? Is there a list of websites somewhere that such verdicts are archived? The very notion of such a broad verdict seems very much at odds with the Wiki's mission, especially since, unlike the CDC, NHS, et al, Whale.to and the Wiki actually honor the concept of freedom of speech and freedom of information. Such an across the boards verdict banning all Whale.to links would set an entirely detrimental precedent, and would veer from what seems to be an established process of making judgments one link at a time. Ombudsman 09:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Your comment on my User page

Here it is:

Comments on user page

If you want to leave comments leave them on my talk page and I wont tidy them up, thanks. john 16:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Fine. It was an honest mistake. (My User page is reserved for myself, and is about me. My Talk page is for discussions, which is why it is labeled "discussion"!)

In contrast, your User page and your Talk page are quite confusing, since you liberally place stuff by other people on your User page. I would suggest you clean it up and reserve it as a biography page. Use your Talk page for the discussions.

You can also create extra pages as personal archives. I'd be willing to help you with that. -- Fyslee 21:15, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Archives page

Here is your new archives page, numbered one, in case you want to make more at a later date:

• User:Whaleto/Archives1

It is prepared with a TOC code, so when appropriate headings and subheadings are used, they will appear as a TOC.

You can now do many things with it, such as making a bar with instructions at the top, and placing your stuff there.

-- Fyslee 11:18, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Neil Miller

Keki Sidhwa

John, the contents of this article are copied from Sidhwa's personal website, which has a copyright notice at the bottom. Do you have documented permission from Sidwa to use his information? --CDN99 19:59, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

discussion in Talk:Epidemiology

You posted a comment about there being no controlled trials regarding Autism and MMR. The discussion there has continued. You may be interested it Talk:Epidemiology. Steve Kd4ttc 01:40, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Threats of Bans ]

john Regarding the threats against you here ] you may find this helpful.

WP:AGF says:-

"Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Misplaced Pages. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks will never help you make a point; they hurt the Misplaced Pages community and deter users from helping create a good encyclopedia."

So is your comment that something is "propaganda" a comment on content? How is it a personal attack? How are you to express your view of content if you are not allowed to use normal dictionary meanings to express yourself? I struggle to understand this attack on you.

As for the use of the term "vaccinator", if an anti-vaccinationist is so broad it includes "those who oppose vaccination on principled or other grounds", then surely the converse is vaccinator is anyone who supports vaccination on principled or other grounds.

Similarly, I understand the term allopath is an accepted term for those who practice conventional western medicine

How can it be abuse, a personal attack or uncivil to describe someone as an allopath or vaccinator who falls into those categories. Surely it must be more of an attack and an insult to call someone an anti-vaccinationist who is not?

The Invisible Anon 08:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the allopaths run this place, don't they, so what they say goes. JDWolff is always looking to be offended so she can ban someone. I'd also have to ask why she is so anti being called an allopath and vaccinator. Truth must grate. john 09:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm just sick beyond words of the fact that you seem to be getting away with slurs. There is an important context issue here. I am an allopath, because I do not believe in homeopathy, yet your use of "allopath" is meant to be offensive. It would be correct to refer to me as a Jew, yet to say "that Jew Jfdwolff" would be offensive.

I strongly resent being lumped with "medical industry propaganda". This suggests that my opinions are not my own but dictated by others. For a thinking human being this is an insult, and you are not to make these allegations about any editor. Your destructive use of ad hominem in every single debate must stop. JFW | T@lk 10:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Bayly1.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Bayly1.jpg. However, the image may soon be deleted unless we can determine the copyright holder and copyright status. The Wikimedia Foundation is very careful about the images included in Misplaced Pages because of copyright law (see Misplaced Pages's Copyright policy).

The copyright holder is usually the creator, the creator's employer, or the last person who was transferred ownership rights. Copyright information on images is signified using copyright templates. The three basic license types on Misplaced Pages are open content, public domain, and fair use. Find the appropriate template in Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags and place it on the image page like this: {{TemplateName}}.

Please signify the copyright information on any other images you have uploaded or will upload. Remember that images without this important information can be deleted by an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me or ask for help at Misplaced Pages talk:Image copyright tags. Thank you. -- Carnildo 09:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)