| Revision as of 13:40, 17 September 2010 editViriditas (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers169,146 edits →Hijinks at Challenger Deep: +← Previous edit | Revision as of 13:47, 17 September 2010 edit undoViriditas (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers169,146 edits →Hijinks at Challenger Deep: +Next edit → | ||
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| I need some help in the ] article. An editor has the frankly hilarious claim that a Berkeley Law article on the international law of nuclear waste dumping at sea can't be used as a source, because it doesn't mention ''this specific location'' (deep in the Marianas Trench) on the ocean. I point out the article makes it clear that any such dumping at sea is banned by treaty, according to the article, and that the article further states who has and hasn't ratified the treaty. He still continues to claim that, unless the law article has the specific text "Challenger Deep" in it, it can't be used in this article. ]<sup>]</sup> 13:22, 17 September 2010 (UTC) | I need some help in the ] article. An editor has the frankly hilarious claim that a Berkeley Law article on the international law of nuclear waste dumping at sea can't be used as a source, because it doesn't mention ''this specific location'' (deep in the Marianas Trench) on the ocean. I point out the article makes it clear that any such dumping at sea is banned by treaty, according to the article, and that the article further states who has and hasn't ratified the treaty. He still continues to claim that, unless the law article has the specific text "Challenger Deep" in it, it can't be used in this article. ]<sup>]</sup> 13:22, 17 September 2010 (UTC) | ||
| :FellGleaming is asking for his edits to be personally exempted from ], ], and ] so he can push another one of his POV on ]. The long and the short of it is that we have at least one good source, a textbook by David W. Hafemeister that discusses how nuclear waste could be placed in the Challenger Deep ocean trench, but that doing so violates the ] treaty. However, paraphrasing from the sources is not good enough for Fell. He wants the article to advance the position that the United States and Russia don't have to follow the treaty. I pointed out to Fell that this is not in the Hafemeister source. Fell believes he can use any source on any topic to advance his position, which tells me, that even though he's been here since 2008, he still doesn't get the sourcing policy and guidelines. It isn't even clear how he proposes to use this off-topic source. As one can tell from the ] on the talk page, it is extremely difficult to communicate in simple language with Fell, so help is greatly appreciated. ] (]) 13:40, 17 September 2010 (UTC) | :FellGleaming is asking for his edits to be personally exempted from ], ], and ] so he can push another one of his POV on ]. The long and the short of it is that we have at least one good source, a textbook by David W. Hafemeister that discusses how nuclear waste could be placed in the Challenger Deep ocean trench, but that doing so violates the ] treaty. However, paraphrasing from the sources is not good enough for Fell. He wants the article to advance the position that the United States and Russia don't have to follow the treaty. I pointed out to Fell that this is not in the Hafemeister source. Fell believes he can use any source on any topic to advance his position, which tells me, that even though he's been here since 2008, he still doesn't get the sourcing policy and guidelines. It isn't even clear how he proposes to use this off-topic source. Although it is difficult to understand his motivation, according to the page history, Fell previously deleted content that stated dumping was banned by treaty, making it seem like dumping nuclear waste in the trench was not only possible, but a good idea. When I showed him that the Hafemeister source said it was banned, he then said that U.S. and Russia don't have to follow it and demanded to add that to the article. As one can tell from the ] on the talk page, it is extremely difficult to communicate in simple language with Fell, so help is greatly appreciated. ] (]) 13:40, 17 September 2010 (UTC) | ||
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Related to Topic Above, is using a Great Circle Calculator to calculate distances OR?
RE: Opening paragraph to the Falkland Islands article. The lede was edited to include a number of distances calculated using a Great Circle Calculator. I opposed the edit at the time as WP:OR but walked away when the proposers got needlessly personal. I see they went ahead and did it anyway despite the fact I questioned whether it was OR. Opinions as to its removal before I do so? The article previously said approximately 300 miles from the SA mainland, so I would propose changing the text to something close to that. Justin talk 11:57, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- See the previous discussion. Practically the same thing applies here though it might be acceptable to give an approximate distance as general geographical common knowledge. It would be far better to give a citation where someone said some figure even if not exactly accurate rather than calculating anything. Dmcq (talk) 12:46, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think that we should take a step backwards and ask what Misplaced Pages is all about. It is about cataloguing information that is available elsewhere. Every Misplaced Pages article consist of information extracted, often in summary form, from one or more documents. Documents do not have to consist of text, they can also be maps or diagrams.
- Now back to Justin’s questions. If I can go to Stanfords (London’s premier map shop), buy a map and using the scale on that map, extract a particular piece of information, then I should be able to publish that finding in Misplaced Pages. It is, after all, no different to extracting a piece of information from any other source document.
- If by using Google Earth and a Great Circle Calculator I reproduce the exercise of buying a map and making measurements, then this is fully in line with my earlier arguments – moreover if I publish the coordinates used then the exercise is fully verifiable. Martinvl (talk) 12:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Do you have some actual real query or are you just here to argue points? Misplaced Pages is not a forum., please see WP:ISNOT which I believe also answers your point. Dmcq (talk) 13:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the response. I intend to remove the WP:OR later and return to the previous lede. Justin talk 13:41, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm a bit concerned. the Falklands Island Government website says about the islands location that it is about 400 miles whereas the current text says 290 miles, I thought I read somewhere before about it being about 300 miles so why does the Falklands Island Government website says something so very different? Dmcq (talk) 19:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- There's a bit of a POV thing around the exact distance concerned. The Argentines argue that the Falklands should be Argentine because they are geographically close to Argentina. Argentine estimates of the distance thus tend to be a tad low. The British argue that it's irrelevant, but their estimates (apparently) tend to be a bit high. This is why Google Earth was used: to get a distance that is independent of the two sides, to avoid claims of POV.
- Saying that the FI are 400 miles from South America is a bit like saying Cuba is 500 miles from the United States. Sure, there are parts of the FI that are 400 miles from parts of mainland South America - in the same way that there are parts of Cuba that are 500 miles from parts of the United States. But it's not a coast-to-coast distance: that's 290 or so miles to mainland South America. Pfainuk talk 21:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds like something for a consensus decision for the articles talk page. I'm certainly not happy with the 400 miles figure even if their government endorses it. I'm sure there must be some reliable citation that gives a closer figure to the coast to coast figure and doesn't suffer from a POV problem. Otherwise you'd be setting up OR in opposition to a 'reliable source'. Dmcq (talk) 21:30, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- FIG tends to be somewhat Stanley centric and the 400 miles figure is the distance to Stanley, rather than a POV issue. You could argue for a mid-point of the islands group, a coast to coast figure is fraught as the Jason Islands to the West of the group are used as the basis for the Argentine figure; these are closer to Argentina but although under FIG control they're usually considered a separate group of islands. I suggest the discussion moves to the talk page. Justin talk 07:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- A quick look at the map suggests to me that this is the distance between the Mount Pleasant Airport and the closest international airport on the South American mainland. This raises the general case of whether a Wikipeida editor should do some basic research in order to qualify the original statement, and if so, to what extent. Martinvl (talk) 11:18, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Not the place for this dicussion. Justin talk 11:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- The point that I raised is a genenal point of which the Falkland Islands is a specific instance. That is why I raised it here. Martinvl (talk) 11:53, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- And this is a fine example of one reason original research is problematic. It may be acceptable in this case as a general knowledge sort of thing that people are interested in but it is still original research. Your definition of 'distance' is completely different from the Falklands Island government one. But even without that in general you can't just stick in figures you calculate yourself just because they seem interesting to you. Now it needs to be discussed on the article's talk page. Dmcq (talk) 12:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- WP policy specifically excludes basic calculations from being original research. A Great Circle calculation would certainly seem to qualify there. The real issue here isn't the calculation itself, but from which two points you choose to calculate. The distance between two points has a precise definition; the definition of the distance between objects such as nations is, at times, open to interpretation. Many times two nations quibble over borders, especially islands, which can change the "distance" between them by hundreds of miles. I would say to avoid any political issues, the article should include language such as "as measured from the nearest point on the coast" or "from the international airfield", etc, to make the situation clear to the reader. Fell Gleaming 03:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- IMHO that's stretching the bounds of "simple calculation". The examples given are "adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age". A great circle calculation is a fair bit more complex than that (not least because it doesn't give the exact distance between two points, and judgement is involved in deciding where it is and isn't accurate enough). --GenericBob (talk) 07:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- Eh? A Great Circle calculation *is* a simple calculation. It's repeatable, deterministic, accurate, and not open to dispute or interpretation -- the very spirit the "calculations" exclusion exists for. It also does give the exact distance between two points -- when those points are on the surface of a sphere such as the Earth. There are no "accuracy concerns" or disputes with the calculation itself. The only issue is when you're calculating based on regions (such as nations) rather than between two points -- you must obviously select what those points are. However, it should be painfully obvious that this isn't a unique concern to a Great Circle calculation; it exists no matter what method you use to determine distance between noncontiguous polygonal regions. Fell Gleaming 15:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- The Earth is not a sphere. The diameter at the equator is roughly 40km more than the pole-to-pole measurement, which means that great-circle formulae do not give the exact distance between two points. Depending on which great-circle formula you use, you can also run into calculation problems - the most straightforward derivation leads to a formula that is exact in theory for spheres, but susceptible to floating-point errors, especially when the points are close together.
- Do those errors matter? In most cases, probably not. But there is more of a judgement call involved here than in the examples listed for "simple calculation". If I use a textbook formula to convert Centigrade to Fahrenheit on my calculator, or add two numbers together, I can expect that the answer is accurate pretty much to the limits of the display; that is not the case with a great-circle calculation. --GenericBob (talk) 06:29, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
- Eh? A Great Circle calculation *is* a simple calculation. It's repeatable, deterministic, accurate, and not open to dispute or interpretation -- the very spirit the "calculations" exclusion exists for. It also does give the exact distance between two points -- when those points are on the surface of a sphere such as the Earth. There are no "accuracy concerns" or disputes with the calculation itself. The only issue is when you're calculating based on regions (such as nations) rather than between two points -- you must obviously select what those points are. However, it should be painfully obvious that this isn't a unique concern to a Great Circle calculation; it exists no matter what method you use to determine distance between noncontiguous polygonal regions. Fell Gleaming 15:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- IMHO that's stretching the bounds of "simple calculation". The examples given are "adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age". A great circle calculation is a fair bit more complex than that (not least because it doesn't give the exact distance between two points, and judgement is involved in deciding where it is and isn't accurate enough). --GenericBob (talk) 07:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- WP policy specifically excludes basic calculations from being original research. A Great Circle calculation would certainly seem to qualify there. The real issue here isn't the calculation itself, but from which two points you choose to calculate. The distance between two points has a precise definition; the definition of the distance between objects such as nations is, at times, open to interpretation. Many times two nations quibble over borders, especially islands, which can change the "distance" between them by hundreds of miles. I would say to avoid any political issues, the article should include language such as "as measured from the nearest point on the coast" or "from the international airfield", etc, to make the situation clear to the reader. Fell Gleaming 03:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
- And this is a fine example of one reason original research is problematic. It may be acceptable in this case as a general knowledge sort of thing that people are interested in but it is still original research. Your definition of 'distance' is completely different from the Falklands Island government one. But even without that in general you can't just stick in figures you calculate yourself just because they seem interesting to you. Now it needs to be discussed on the article's talk page. Dmcq (talk) 12:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- The point that I raised is a genenal point of which the Falkland Islands is a specific instance. That is why I raised it here. Martinvl (talk) 11:53, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Not the place for this dicussion. Justin talk 11:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- A quick look at the map suggests to me that this is the distance between the Mount Pleasant Airport and the closest international airport on the South American mainland. This raises the general case of whether a Wikipeida editor should do some basic research in order to qualify the original statement, and if so, to what extent. Martinvl (talk) 11:18, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Using FRUs to make claims in Misplaced Pages's neutral voice
The question relates to this article - Occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem by Jordan. A primary document - United States Department of State / Foreign relations of the United States, 1950. The Near East, South Asia, and Africa pg. 921 - is being used to support a claim that 'The United States Department of State also recognized this extension of Jordanian sovereignty.'. The relevant paragraph from the primary document says "I explained the Department's position, stating that it was not the custom of this country to issue formal statements of recognition every time a foreign country changed its territorial area. The union of Arab Palestine and Jordan had been brought about as a result of the will of the people and the US accepted the fact that Jordanian sovereignty had been extended to the new area. Mr. Rifai said he had not realized this and that he was very pleased to learn-that the US did in fact recognize the union."
My opinion is that using this ambiguous (at best) statement from a primary source, which says on the one hand that the State dept does not issue formal recognition, but on the other that the the US "accpets" the action, to claim this constitutes recognition is not permissible, since it involves interpretation of a primary source. There are numerous secondary sources that state the opposite - e.g: this}, which says only the UK recognized the annexation. Other editors disagree see the Talk page discussion here:
Prem Rawat intro
Editors are revising the intro to Prem Rawat, a controversial article that has inspired a couple of ArbCom cases. Here is part of the proposed text:
- He also received media attention for living "more like a king than a messiah", with luxury automobiles and multiple residences.
An editor objects to this text on account of it being, in his words, "a feast of WIKI:SYN". Here is the text in the article that it directly summarizes:
- Rawat's affluent lifestyle was a source of controversy in the early 1970s. Some media reports said that Rawat "lived more like a king than a Messiah". Critics said that his lifestyle was supported by the donations of followers and that the movement appeared to exist only to support Rawat's "opulent existence". Supporters said there is no conflict between worldly and spiritual riches. That Rawat did not advise anyone to "abandon the material world", but said it is our attachment to it that is wrong. Press reports listed expensive automobiles such as Rolls Royces, Mercedes Benz limousines and sports cars, some of them gifts. Rawat said, "I have something far more precious to give them than money and material things – I give peace". "Maharaj Ji's luxuries are gifts from a Western culture whose fruits are watches and Cadillacs," a spokesman said. Some premies said that he did not want the gifts, but that people gave them out of their love for him. They saw Rawat's lifestyle as an example of a lila, or divine play, which held a mirror to the "money-crazed and contraption-collecting society" of the West.
Here are excerpts from seven reliable news sources:
- He has a sprawling $80,000 split-level house here, plus homes in Los Angeles and India. There are two Mercedes- Benz automobiles for use in the U.S. and two airplanes. In London, his followers have given him a Rolls-Royce. Queried about this opulence, he asks whether he is supposed lo throw away gifts the mission accepts in his name. 11/4/73
- The guru's "Divine Residence" in London is worth $125,000 and is only one of his many homes around the world. February, 1974.
- Reporter: It's hard for some people to understand how you personally can live so luxuriously in your several homes and your Rolls Royces. March 14, 1974 (reporting on a November 1973 press conference)
- Sources close to Rajeshwari Devi said she was upset because of her son's materialistic lifestyle, including a fondness for expensive homes and sports cars, and because of his marriage last year to his secretary. April 9, 1975
- In his first three years in the United States, new converts were common and their contributions led to the Maharaj Ji's homes in three states, a fleet of cars, a wardrobe of flashy clothes and two airplanes. Followers are encouraged to live in ashrams, communal houses where the virtures of celibacy, poverty and meditation are practiced. "If I gave poor people my Rolls-Royce, they would need more tomorrow and I don't have any more Rolls-Royces to give them," the guru once said in defense of his worldly goods. July 13,1975
- The young holy man owned a green Rolls Royce, a Mercedes 600, a Lotus sportscar, several motorcycles, homes in London, New York, Denver and the palatial Anacapa View Estate (complete with tennis courts and swimming pool) overlooking the sea on 4 acres in Malibu, California. 1983
- Things haven't gone so well for the guru in the last 20 years, though success is relative. He didn't bring the world peace, as he promised, but at last report he was living in a Malibu mansion valued at $15 million, with other homes in England, New Delhi, Rome, Madrid and who knows where else; driving his choice of a Rolls-Royce, a Maserati, a Ferrari or a garageful of other expensive cars; jetting around the planet on a $25 million Lear jet; or sailing on his $3 million yacht. 1998
Here is what sociologist James Downton wrote, which we quote in the article and the proposed intro:
- Reports in the media were unfavorable, repeating often that he seemed to live more like a king than a messiah." 1979
Does the proposed text violate WP:NOR? Will Beback talk 08:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- No, but it violates other policies, because you are seeking to use Misplaced Pages as a soapbox, cherry-picking quotes and sources to malign individuals or organizations that you dislike. A more straightforward and factual approach is to be preferred for encyclopedia articles. Peg Woffington (talk) 14:44, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- First, I don't dislike this individual. I don't have any opinion of him. Second, we have scholarly sources (not just Downton) that say this was a significant part of the subject's public image. Third, I notice this is only your second edit to Misplaced Pages, and I'm not sure how you found this page or why you're responding here. In any case, thanks for your input on the main question. Will Beback talk 21:05, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- I think the main purpose of the lead is to establish notability and summarize the article. This sounds to me like starting to do the article in the lead. It already summarizes this sort of stuff saying basically his thoughts are shallow and he lives the good life. Dmcq (talk) 21:36, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- The proposed text would replace some text already in the intro: Rawat has been criticized for ... leading an opulent lifestyle.
- We're revising the intro to make it a bit longer and to cover more material from the article. I should have linked to the discussions. Talk:Prem Rawat#Millennium, and other '70s material, Talk:Prem Rawat#Lead proposal, Talk:Prem Rawat#Two proposals, please choose. It's been a difficult process. Will Beback talk 22:05, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Rawat has been criticized for ... leading an opulent lifestyle is the sort of straightforward and prosaic wording that one would expect from an encyclopedia. At Misplaced Pages, editors with an agenda are always attracted to more flamboyant and provocative formulations like living "more like a king than a messiah", because it is more propagandistic, which is exactly the sort of thing that we should be avoiding. Peg Woffington (talk) 05:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- Be that as it may, we're just here to discuss NOR issues. Will Beback talk 05:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- Rawat has been criticized for ... leading an opulent lifestyle is the sort of straightforward and prosaic wording that one would expect from an encyclopedia. At Misplaced Pages, editors with an agenda are always attracted to more flamboyant and provocative formulations like living "more like a king than a messiah", because it is more propagandistic, which is exactly the sort of thing that we should be avoiding. Peg Woffington (talk) 05:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- The first thing you'll notice is that nowhere in the section Will Beback says he's summarising are "residences (single or multiple)" mentioned. The second thing is that Will Beback has provided quotes for his opinion that Rawat had "multiple residences" in 1973 but hasn't supplied the sources or importantly the dates of the quotes. New people to the topic may not be aware that the Malibu property which WB has told you was one of the "multiple residences" used by Rawat in 1973, wasn't bought until "November 1974 and served as the DLM's West Coast headquarters" (as per the article). Another source says "in the last 20 years" so it can hardly be about 1973. And several of the other quotes also contain material that dates it to the late 70s, even 80s. In short there is no justification for Will Beback to insert "in 1973 Rawat had multiple residences" into the lead.Momento (talk) 23:12, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- I've added dates to the excerpts, though I don't understand the issue with the timing of these comments since we're not saying that the home owner occurred in a certain period. The proposed text does not include "1973". The issue we're discussing here is original research and I don't see anyone suggesting that the proposal would be a policy violation. Will Beback talk 23:39, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- "We're not saying that the home owner occurred in a certain period"?!?! Really? You are summarising the period 1970-1973 for the lead and in it you want to claim something happened and provide quotes about what was happening in the years '74, '75, '79, '83 and '98 to justify it. Apart from the fact that at 15 he couldn't legally own anything the only quote about 1973 you offer says "Guru Maharaj Ji lives comfortably with the other members of the "Holy Family" - his three older brothers ranging up to 22 years of age and his mother".Momento (talk) 01:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- No, we're summarizing the whole article. We're just attacking the problem section by section. As for the legal ownership of the homes, we don't get into that and neither do the sources. Will Beback talk 01:37, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- That's right Will but it was you who brought up "the home owner" in your previous post. And yes we are doing it "section by section" and the section you want to insert "multiple residences" into is the 1970-73" section. Could someone please take over explaining to Will that just because someone said something happened in 1975 or 1983 or 1998 that you can't claim it happened in 1973. Momento (talk) 02:01, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- A) We're not claiming it happened in 1973. B) It did happen in 1973, as well as subsequent years.
- We're not discussing ownership in the intro, so let's avoid red herrings. The reason for this noticeboard request is to see if uninvolved editors think there is a violation of NOR. So far, we've gotten two responses and neither one has said that the proposed text has that problem. Let's not fill up the page with more of our arguing - there is enough info already for an outside editor to form an opinion. Will Beback talk 02:08, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't say it was OR, I said it was WP:SYNTH. Taking a comment about one year and saying it applies to another as per "do not imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources".Momento (talk) 02:43, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- WP:SYNTH is a section of WP:NOR. See for yourself. The proposed text doesn't include any specific year year. Maybe you should re-read it. He also received media attention for living "more like a king than a messiah", with luxury automobiles and multiple residences. Nowhere does it say "1973". Will Beback talk 03:14, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- I have been involved with this article in the past. The line in question does not appear to be a violation of NOR or SYN. As far as including it in the intro, I think there could be arguments made for either inclusion or exclusion. A content RfC, with separate sections for "involved" and "uninvolved" opinions, would probably resolve it. Cla68 (talk) 20:06, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Will Beback wants to put the line is question into the "1970-73" section of the lead which covers the period from Rawat's arrival in the west until the Millennium event of 1973. There is no supporting sources for "multiple residences" prior to Millennium. But it's academic anyway since it has, quite rightly, been removed from the proposal.Momento (talk) 00:44, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- There is no 1970-1973 section of the intro. Intros don't have sections. Thanks for pointing out that the "multiple homes" were accidentally omitted. Will Beback talk 00:55, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- The intro and the article, like the majority of literature, are written in chronological order so putting material that happened in 1974 before material that occurred in 1973 is confusing as in "Paint the walls and prepare them for painting".Momento (talk) 23:28, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
- Will Beback wants to put the line is question into the "1970-73" section of the lead which covers the period from Rawat's arrival in the west until the Millennium event of 1973. There is no supporting sources for "multiple residences" prior to Millennium. But it's academic anyway since it has, quite rightly, been removed from the proposal.Momento (talk) 00:44, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Can we start this again
Start again, and NO-ONE argue about whether this guy is the bees knees or a dirty dog. Someone please explain in words of one syllable what sentence or paragraph is supposed to be OR or SYN and why. As far as I can see, summarising multiple newspaper reports that say he has been criticised for owning multiple accommodations into a sentence that says "he was criticised for owning multiple homes" is neither OR nor SYN. Quoting the king vs messiah line would be WP:UNDUE (it can't be OR because the quote exists) except that there are multiple sources which criticise him for living in a palatial manner rather than in the manner his teachings led one to expect. In which case, the editor was just picking the best summary text, as he is entitled to do. If you don't like it, I suggest you need the WP:BLP/N BLP noticeboard, as this seems to be a dispute about how to represent this person's character, not anything to do with original research.Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:44, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
- This issue has been blown out of all proportion. We were engaged in summarising for the lead the section in the article that covers what Rawat was doing between the time he left India in1971 and December 1973 when he turned 16 and took control of DLM US. Will Beback wants to insert -
"Rawat also attracted media attention, being ridiculed in the US for his youth and his supposed divine status, with journalists noting luxury automobiles and multiple residences made available to him by his followers.
I prefer -
"At the same time, Rawat attracted controversy, being ridiculed by the US media for his youth, his supposed divine status and for living "more like a king than a messiah".
In order to bolster the need to include "multiple residences" in the summary Will Beback has provided several sources that include "multiple residences", and here's where the WP:SYN comes in. Only one source is from 1973, the period we are summarising, and it refers to homes in LA and India. All the rest are from and about 1974, '75, '83 and 1998. It is clearly WP:SYN "to imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources", and the conclusion Will Beback is implying is that is that there are multiple sources that support his claim that "multiple residences" existed in 1973. They do not. When I pointed out that the sources don't refer to 1973 Will brought the discussion here. I haven't suggested OR.Momento (talk) 23:43, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you. At least the issue is clear now. In my opinion you are correct to say that text about the view of this guy in the US in 1973 must be supported by references from 1973. If the text was a general statement of the US view, it would be OK to say that 'multiple residences' was a criticism frequently levelled at him. On the other hand, the king vs messiah quote may be WP:UNDUE, unless there are other comments from 1973 criticising his flashy lifestyle. Elen of the Roads (talk) 08:36, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- The quotes Will provided come from the media. The "king/messiah" quote comes from the sociologist James V. Downton's "Sacred journeys: the conversion of young Americans to Division Light Mission". New York: Columbia University Press. He is the most authoritative scholar for this period.Momento (talk) 11:32, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- Could still be undue if he was the only one saying it. However, given that there are also more lightweight criticisms in the media, I think it more likely he's just saying it elegantly :) Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- Actually Downton is referring to the media, he writes - "Reports in the media were unfavorable, repeating often that he seemed to live more like a king than a messiah". That's why I want to use it, a scholar's summary rather than an editors version of events.Momento (talk) 00:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- The quotes Will provided come from the media. The "king/messiah" quote comes from the sociologist James V. Downton's "Sacred journeys: the conversion of young Americans to Division Light Mission". New York: Columbia University Press. He is the most authoritative scholar for this period.Momento (talk) 11:32, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know wht Momento keeps saying that the proposed sentence is limited to 1973.
- Rawat also attracted media attention, being ridiculed in the US for his youth and his supposed divine status, with journalists noting luxury automobiles and multiple residences.
- There's nothing about 1973 there. The media attention covered about a decade, from the early 1970s to the early 1980s. Will Beback talk 03:37, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know wht Momento keeps saying that the proposed sentence is limited to 1973.
Unbelief
I am not sure if this is more appropriate on the Fringe noticeboard or here. But this entire article seem to be nothing but a homemade unsourced essay, which claims that a sociological school of thought called "unbelief" has been in continous existence since the 18th century until the present times, where some fringe groups apparently adheres to a belief system of this name. The task of turning it into something encyclopedic seems enormous, and I wonder if it wouldn't be better just to delete it altogether until someone comes along to write a scholarly article on the subject? --Saddhiyama (talk) 13:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Looks like bunk to me, I've AFD'd it. --Cameron Scott (talk) 13:19, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Good call. I will head over and support. --Saddhiyama (talk) 13:41, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Popular monarchy
This article is presenting an argument based on an essay by a journalist. The only reference is that essay. As the article is not 'Kingsley Martin's essay' but instead purports to be a general article using that essay as a reference it would seem to be original research. --Utinomen (talk) 21:49, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- Note that this article was AFD'd by Utinomen on July 1st and closed as keep. (really should have included that in your post) Ravensfire (talk) 03:03, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Mathematical calculation
I have a question: is it original research to do a mathematical calculation on sourced numbers in order to provide perspective? Here is what I did, with letters instead of the original names of the things:
Up to $100,000 per year is raised by Y. However, only $300 of this total is given to each of 12 P each month (or about $43,000 yearly for all 12 P combined)
The bolded part is my calculation, and someone told me it is OR. 300 x 12P x 12 months so the calculation is 300 x 12 x 12 or 43,200.
Thanks for your help. BE——Critical__Talk 23:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- The multiplication itself is basic and not OR... however, if you draw any conclusions from the multiplication it could be. Blueboar (talk) 23:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Right. No conclusions were drawn. Thanks (: Anyone else want to weigh in? BE——Critical__Talk 00:38, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- In theory it's ok - keeping in mind that there are lots of ways to make it not ok. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 01:14, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- Right, there are many ways to POV push, and practically anything can be used to do so. BE——Critical__Talk 01:58, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- In theory it's ok - keeping in mind that there are lots of ways to make it not ok. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 01:14, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
This question seems to come up quite often. Perhaps it's worth thrashing out a guideline to clarify WP:OR on this? (My personal view is similar to AFH's; routine calculations are OK, but people aren't always able to recognise when their calculations are non-routine.) --GenericBob (talk) 03:11, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- It's been done..., which I didn't see before asking here but might be expanded into deductive reasoning. Like if the first source says that A and B both have the same father and the second source says A's father is C we can say B's father is C. BE——Critical__Talk 04:36, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- I would be very unhappy about anything that encourages synthesis. Two different sources will often have different contexts and different shades of meaning; taken individually they're both reasonable, but trying to squeeze more meaning out of the combination gets us into trouble.
- For instance, one of my family members A was adopted at birth by C, but is in contact with his biological mother D and her other child B. He refers to both C and D as 'mother' on different occasions - so you can find a source that says A and B have the same mother, and another that says that A's mother is C, but it would be wrong to conclude that B's mother is C. I've seen issues like this trip people up quite often, on and off WP.
- Obligatory syllogism:
- Source A: "Nothing is better than eternal happiness."
- Source B: "A ham sandwich is better than nothing."
- Synthesis: "A ham sandwich is better than eternal happiness."
- --GenericBob (talk) 02:37, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
- Lol... that's cool, playing on contexts of the word "nothing." You may be right but it's a sad comment on common sense. BE——Critical__Talk 02:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'd translate the policy as suggesting simple math is okay, while conclusions formed from syllogisms are not. Professor marginalia (talk) 03:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
- Even sensible people get tripped up sometimes when they don't know enough about the field. Some of the problem areas I've seen:
- Epidemiology: Source A says "In 2005 the rate of HIV infection in West Fenwick was 600 cases per 100,000." Source B says "For East Fenwick, rate of HIV infection in 2005 was 120 cases per 100,000." It appears reasonable to say that in 2005 the rate of HIV infection for West Fenwick was 5x greater than that for East Fenwick... but 'rate of infection' can refer to several different things. It could refer to the prevalence (what proportion of people are HIV-positive?) or it could report to the incidence (what proportion of people become infected each year?) Within those, there's also the question of whether we're looking at reported rates, or estimates that attempt to compensate for underreporting.
- Demography: The Australian Bureau of Statistics reports that in the 2006 Census, 6.3 million people indicated English ancestry, 1.8 million Irish, and 1.5 million Scottish (plus some smaller number Welsh, not going to go digging for it just now). If we don't want to include every single nation in the article on Australia, it looks reasonable to add these numbers up into a "British Isles" category. The catch is that the survey allowed people to give multiple answers, so simple addition gives the wrong answer. (We had a long and tedious argument about this a while back over on Talk:Australia.) --GenericBob (talk) 04:24, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
- Even sensible people get tripped up sometimes when they don't know enough about the field. Some of the problem areas I've seen:
Renoir (surname)
(Unsure if this belongs here or BLP noticeboard; will post on both for now.) Article Renoir (surname) addresses origin of name Renoir and lists prominent members of the artist's family. http://en.wikipedia.org/Renoir_(surname) In Feb 2010, IP user introduced a "Gabrielle A. Renoir" to the article, including a spam link to a page advertising a novel in progress. In June, this edit was noticed and challenged. Since then, IP user and user WikiEditorandWriter have persistently introduced edits and comments that appear to directly and indirectly associate this "Gabrielle A. Renoir" with the artist's family without providing supporting references. Rather than continue an edit war, would ask a more experienced editor or an admin to take a look at the page and ensure that material meets Wiki standards on verifiability, COI, and NPOV.Hiernonymous (talk) 14:17, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
Resolved – Hiernonymous (talk) 20:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
Spitsbergen
Can somebody have a look at this?
There is a controversy/edit-war at Spitsbergen#Etymology, and this section seems to be the sticking point:
"The Arctic explorer WM Conway, in 1906, was of the opinion this was incorrect though this had little effect on British practice "
The part in italics has been deleted as OR. Is this statement original research? And if so, how should it be fixed?
notes
- "Spitsbergen is the only correct spelling; Spitzbergen is a relatively modern blunder. The name is Dutch, not German. The second S asserts and commemorates the nationality of the discoverer." – Sir Martin Conway, No Man’s Land, 1906.
- Lockyer, N The Conway expedition to Spitzbergen Nature (1896)
- British documents onforeign affairs British Foreign Office (1908)
Background:Just to be in the clear, this is the latest chapter in a wrangle which has lasted a couple of months. It started here (my talk page), and continued on talk pages here (User:Jonas Poole, now deleted), here (PQ 18 OOB), here (Spitsbergen) and is currently here (Spitsbergen, new section). Xyl 54 (talk) 10:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Jägala concentration camp
Can I ask for some eyes at Jägala concentration camp? Editors there apparently dissagree with a few of the sources listed in the article and are adding their personal analysis , using other sources, to "explain" why the sources are incorrect. I have tried to explain the talk page that this violates WP:SYNTH, but am not getting anywhere. There may be some nationalistic pov's in the mix there. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:51, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Sofia Rotaru
The main body of the article is OR. At least the editor who has inserted it has refused to produce any references to the text despite of a year of requests to her on the talk page. A fortiori, the material is rather contentious, featuring unverified claims of Rotaru being the first or the best in a number of things. It is difficult to verify the claims for a non-Russian editor as a lion's share of the material published on the topic is in Cyrillic. Advice on how to proceed would be most appreciated. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 08:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Self-medication
IP 75.179.176.190 edited this referenced sentence in the self-medication article to have an opposite meaning to before. Looking at his/her previous edits, this appears to be something of a trend. I could simply revert this last edit (though how do I know the user isn't correcting a mistake?), but there seems to be an ongoing attitude problem here: frustrated with feedback about uncited edits, the user has taken to sneaking in OR by editing cited sections. I can't find any policy in WP:CS regarding editing previously cited content. Is there something we can point the user to to clarify citation requirements? --pmj (talk) 23:41, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
George Burton Drake
the sources mentioned in the article are two phonecalls and a family tree (altought provided by a library). I may be wrong, but to me this sound like original research to me --Melaen (talk) 17:08, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
The Golden Rule
Per Talk:The_Golden_Rule#.22Four_forms.22_WP:Original_Research.3F, this editor just doesn't get the point that he can't just personally synthesize a new way of categorizing the differing types of rules - including in a snazzy table. I told him he needs a WP:RS that describes this or any other categorization scheme and he says he understands. He says he's complying with WP:OR - which he evidently didn't realize existed before - by adding a couple of refs, but he's not. He needs more than one person telling him before I start editing out his WP:OR and an edit war ensues. Thanks. CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I see what the problem is. the creation of a table in and of itself is not OR, unless that table is being used to create a novel understanding of the topic. what's the novel understanding here? --Ludwigs2 16:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- In the lead he create his own way of organizing 4 different versions of what is called "the golden rule" and then uses typology of positive/prohibitive and passive/active forms. There are no refs for any WP:RS creating those 4 versions or those 4 forms. The table is just a latter expression of that WP:OR. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:41, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
- I had a look at the references and I couldn't see any justification for the passive/active split and have said so in its talk page. In some societies they seem to have great problems saying to do things in the active voice but it is still a command and one can't guarantee what happens when they translate to English. Dmcq (talk) 10:42, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed, it's an interesting categorization, but not supported by the sources as far as I can see. --Nuujinn (talk) 13:55, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- I had a look at the references and I couldn't see any justification for the passive/active split and have said so in its talk page. In some societies they seem to have great problems saying to do things in the active voice but it is still a command and one can't guarantee what happens when they translate to English. Dmcq (talk) 10:42, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- In the lead he create his own way of organizing 4 different versions of what is called "the golden rule" and then uses typology of positive/prohibitive and passive/active forms. There are no refs for any WP:RS creating those 4 versions or those 4 forms. The table is just a latter expression of that WP:OR. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:41, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
I think there has been an unfortunate misunderstanding:
- I'm not the editor who first created the "four forms" of The Golden Rule in the article on The Golden Rule. Nor am I the editor who created the two forms (done even before the four forms). I am simply the editor who formatted the four forms into a table. I did this after the "four forms" were already created into a numbered list by a different editor.
- The only reason I formatted these forms into a table was stated in my "Edit summary": It states, "created section to help those who are visual learners." My goal was to help, not to hurt.
- Since my goal has always been to help, and not to hurt, I would never start anything that comes close to an "edit war" over this type of issue.
- The description of the Golden Rule has gone through the hands of many, many editors. Here is a brief history:
- This edit from June 11, 2009 has the following edit summary: "Negative/positive form difference description"
- July 6, 2010 this edit created a numbered list of two forms (done by an editor other than myself)
- July 6, 2010 - this edit created a numbered list of four forms. (done by an editor other than myself)
- July 9, 2010 - With this edit, I created a new section (much less prominent than the lead section) which formatted the existing list of four items into a table "to help those who are visual learners."
I want to stress that since my goal has always been to help, and not to hurt, I would never start anything that comes close to an editing war over this type of issue. Feel free to edit the article without that fear. (I'm not sure where that fear began. I didn't mean to frighten anyone with my long-winded discussions. Long-windedness and thoroughness is just my style.) - Boyd Reimer (talk) 17:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sure we're all assuming good faith, and I appreciate your clarification. Seems not so long winded to me, but then, I'm a pedant who goes on a bit myself. Regardless of whoever first put this classification in place, it should go unless reliable sources for it can be found. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Glad to see you do see the policy problems, no matter who created it originally. CarolMooreDC (talk) 19:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy
There's a long-running dispute on the talk page of this article about if the following passage in the article is original synthesis:
Sociologists such as Irving Horowitz and Peter Conrad have made comments on the role of the media. Writing partly in his capacity as managing editor of the publishing company, Transaction Publishers, that had published the Snyderman-Rothman book and more recently a controversial book by hereditarian researcher J. Philippe Rushton, Horowitz (1995) pointed out that researchers into heredity and intelligence like Rothman "sought media attention as a mechanism for making their policy views known."
The supposed source for this passage is Horowitz, Irving Louis (1995), "The Rushton File: Racial Comparisons and Media Passions" (PDF), Society, 32: 7–17, while the subject of the Wiki article is a book called The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy by Mark Snyderman and Stanley Rothman, published by Horowitz's Transaction Publishers in 1988. Horowitz's article is about the psychologist J. Philippe Rushton, but Rothman and Snyderman are mentioned in it in passing, and the article begins with a disclaimer saying that "This statement reflects the views of its author, not only as an academic concerned with policy-making and social sciences, but also as a publisher of academic and scholarly books". However, The IQ Controversy book is not mentioned in Horowitz's article, nor is it said in it that Horowitz has ever published anything by Rothman or Snyderman; Rothman and Snyderman are not even mentioned in the same sentence. Horowitz's 10-page article contains only the following two passages about Rothman and Snyderman:
To be sure, in a thoughtful and sympathetic early review of the Rushton book in The National Review (September 12, 1994), Mark Snyderman wamed of the barrage to come. "Philippe Rushton has written his own epitaph. Any genetic predisposition toward the defense of one's race only adds to the near impossibility of rational response to the scientific study of race in a world that has seen the Holocaust and racial subjugation...Rushton's work may be ignored by the fearful, damned by the liberals, and misused by the racists. It is unlikely to be truly understood by anyone." Subsequent events have proved Snyderman prophetic; although Malcom Brown's review in The New York Times Sunday Book Review made a valiant effort at understanding and empathy.
...
In the 1960s there was the work of the late William Shockley, in the seventies that of Arthur Jensen, and in the 1980s that of a group of people much closer to media studies, such as Stanley Rothman. These individuals sought media attention as a mechanism for making their policy views known.
The question is if Horowitz's article can be used as a source in an article about IQ Controversy book. More specifically, firstly, is it correct to say that Horowitz writes in the capacity of Snyderman and Rothman's publisher, even though he does not say in his article that he has published anything by Snyderman or Rothman, and, secondly, is it correct to imply that Horowitz talks about The IQ Controversy book when he says that Rothman has sought media attention as a mechanism for making his policy views known, even though the book is not mentioned at all by Horowitz? In other words, is Horowitz's article directly related to the IQ Controversy book and does it directly support the material in the article?
This is, as such, a very minor issue, but it has been hotly debated, because The IQ Controversy, the Media and Public Policy is one of the articles related to the Race and intelligence controversy, which was recently the subject of arbitration, leading to, among other things, the topic-banning of several users involved in this original synthesis dispute. I'd appreciate if some experienced users who are not involved in this dispute commented on this, as it might also help resolve similar disputes in related articles.--Victor Chmara (talk) 17:40, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- I would point out, for editing this article in question (which is about a book) that there is no doubt that Horowitz was the publisher of the book, and there is no doubt (from the overall context of his article, which I have in a full-length copy) that his article is about the practices of his publishing house over a long span of time, including when it published the book by Snyderman and Rothman. I am not the author of the disputed paragraph, and I am not particularly invested in how it is worded, but my interpretation of the Misplaced Pages sourcing rules is that it is excellent editorial practice to find a reliable secondary source by a book's publisher when editing a Misplaced Pages article about a book. P.S. Thanks to Victor for bringing this issue to the attention of this noticeboard, which will offer some uninvolved editors a chance to ponder the issue. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 19:18, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
No takers?--Victor Chmara (talk) 18:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Potentially libelous original research in Elie Wiesel entry
A single user has repeatedly inserted original research claims in the entry for Nobel Laureate Elie Wiesel that he has no Auschwitz tattoo, notwithstanding that Wiesel has written extensively about his tattoo. The only evidence of this claim is a link to a YouTube video with selective edits, out of context, from a documentary about Wiesel revisiting his hometown. The sound is removed from the clip and someone has re-edited with a biased point of view. To use this as a "source" clearly seems to violate the original research policy, and I wrote on the Elie Wiesel talk page as to why. It might help if some seasoned editors took a look at this article. The user inserting the original research is "Someone ua" and he/she has only ever edited this single article and only added the claims about the tattoo. As another user wrote on the talk page, it is potentially defamatory to make such a claim about Wiesel in his Misplaced Pages article. I agree this could be libelous because it questions Wiesel's honesty and the accuracy of his published books. 71.175.4.207 (talk) 17:50, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- Since youtube is generally not considered a reliable source, I'm not sure if we need to decide the question of OR in the first place. --Nuujinn (talk) 17:52, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- Do you have a link for that particular policy? It would help if I could add that in the talk page. I was not aware of that policy. Thanks. 71.175.4.207 (talk) 17:54, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- it's WP:OR and novel synthesis and should be removed on sight. --Cameron Scott (talk) 18:03, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- Cameron Scott, looks like someone else out in the net agrees, the url is dead now. 71.175.4.207, see Misplaced Pages:Reliable_source_examples#Are_IRC.2C_MySpace.2C_and_YouTube_reliable_sources.3F this, short version is such videos are self-published and cannot be verified. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- it's WP:OR and novel synthesis and should be removed on sight. --Cameron Scott (talk) 18:03, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Quotes from the Bible being used without a RS and claimed as references for Israelites being white
An IP address added this this morning. As I thought and still do that it a list of quotes with the introduction " There are quite a lot of Bible references to the Israelites being white. For example : " is original research, I removed the section, leaving an edit summary saying it was OR. It was replaced with the edit summary "Quoting from the Bible is no more O.R. than is quoting from the New York Times". This isn't the only OR in the article. Dougweller (talk) 07:03, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- "Quoting from the Bible is no more O.R. than is quoting from the New York Times".... Classic. That's going on my wall of fame. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:08, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, merely quoting from a source (any source) isn't automatically OR. The potential for OR happens when we attempt to tie the quote into the article's topic... when an editor analyzes or interprets the quote and says that the quote has any baring on a particular topic. That is what is happening here. An editor is interpreting passages from the bible as meaning that the Israelites were white.
- That said, I am not sure that this is completely OR... I have a feeling that it is just POV writing and a lack of proper sourcing. After all, the bible has been used and misused to "prove" various racial (and racist) theories for centuries... I would expect to find lots of sources that use the bible to "prove" the Israelites were white (and, given the nature of antisemitism, I would also expect to find sources that use the bible to "prove" they were not).
- Given the likelihood of this, what is needed is attribution... instead of going right to the primary source (the bible itself), the article needs to tell the reader who uses the bible to make the claim... what is needed is attribution to a secondary source: "According to Rev. Ima Bigot, dean of Biblical Studies at State University (1903), the bible makes several references to the Israelites being white, including... " Blueboar (talk) 18:13, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- I've read the entire Bible in its original languages after quite a few reads of it in various translations into other languages (both Indo-European and non-Indo-European), and it is completely anachronistic to claim that the Bible follows the "race" categories sometimes mentioned in modern Western culture. That's a misreading of the Bible. Anyway, on that issue the Bible would not be a reliable source. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 18:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- Blueboar, I agree - on the talk page of the editor who I quoted above, I said " Using the Bible in this way is classic original research. It would be ok to say 'notable person x says that this quote and this quote show the Israelites are white', but you need a WP:RS to do it. Some editor saying that is original research.. Dougweller (talk) 18:52, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- While I agree with Dougweller here that the editor is engaging in OR, I have to take exception to Weiji's statement that the Christian bible isn't a reliable source for an article entitled "The Race of Jesus". Unless God himself rides down on a flaming chariot to edit the article, what more reliable source could there be? The historical record is pretty much mute on the personage of Christ. (and I'm an atheist btw). Fell Gleaming 19:05, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- Blueboar, I agree - on the talk page of the editor who I quoted above, I said " Using the Bible in this way is classic original research. It would be ok to say 'notable person x says that this quote and this quote show the Israelites are white', but you need a WP:RS to do it. Some editor saying that is original research.. Dougweller (talk) 18:52, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not disagreeing with the proposition that there isn't a more reliable source about Jesus as a historical personage, but sticking with my proposition that the Bible is not a Misplaced Pages reliable source on an issue of "race" of the Israelite people (an issue actually not addressed at all by the Bible in modern terms). -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 19:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- Given the only source that implies Jesus was a Semite is the Bible itself, I think you'd have difficulty arguing against a Biblical passage that called him white....assuming such a passage existed, of course. Fell Gleaming 19:15, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- The Bible is a primary source as we use the phrase, and our policy says "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Misplaced Pages to make straightforward, descriptive statements that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source." Dougweller (talk) 20:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- That's what I said, isn't it? If a biblical passage existed that said Jesus was a blond-haired, blue-eyed Caucasian, that would certainly qualify as a reliable source. The problem here is that the IP editor is interpreting adjectives like "fair" (handsome or comely) or "lily white" (assumed poetic hyperbole) as relating to race. Fell Gleaming 20:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with you. Just thought it would be useful to cite policy. Dougweller (talk) 20:46, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- That's what I said, isn't it? If a biblical passage existed that said Jesus was a blond-haired, blue-eyed Caucasian, that would certainly qualify as a reliable source. The problem here is that the IP editor is interpreting adjectives like "fair" (handsome or comely) or "lily white" (assumed poetic hyperbole) as relating to race. Fell Gleaming 20:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- The Bible is a primary source as we use the phrase, and our policy says "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Misplaced Pages to make straightforward, descriptive statements that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source." Dougweller (talk) 20:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- Given the only source that implies Jesus was a Semite is the Bible itself, I think you'd have difficulty arguing against a Biblical passage that called him white....assuming such a passage existed, of course. Fell Gleaming 19:15, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not disagreeing with the proposition that there isn't a more reliable source about Jesus as a historical personage, but sticking with my proposition that the Bible is not a Misplaced Pages reliable source on an issue of "race" of the Israelite people (an issue actually not addressed at all by the Bible in modern terms). -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 19:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg
Please join the discussion at Talk:Treaties of Bautzen and Merseburg#Synthesis, continued at
Skäpperöd (talk) 09:36, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Claiming to contact the Author of an RS, then using the purported email as a source in discussions on the talk page about the content of the article.
In a series of edits beginning here and ending here User:128.255.251.167 Wishes that we consider a email she received from the author of one paper as a source. They want to use it to argue about what should be in the article on the talk page.
My reading of WP:OR and WP:RS WP:V has such a email as not being a reliable source for Misplaced Pages, not verifiable by the average reader in any reasonable way, and in particular Original research.
I have no way of knowing weather or not that supposed email is authentic, none what so ever. In fact even if I emailed the author in question it would still be OR because the next editor to come along could not verify it, unless we expect the author to answer emails ad infinitum.
What say the rest of you?--Hfarmer (talk) 00:10, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- It should be noted that this is the second time today a conflict with Hfarmer has gone to a noticeboard. Please let me give you the actual background of this subject, with cites.
- Hfarmer has been trying to oppose, against the wishes of most of the people discussing the subject, the merger of the article Homosexual transsexual, an article which she considers "her baby".
- The proposal is to merge the three separate, highly redundant, confusing articles on Ray Blanchard's theories of transsexuality (Autogynephilia, Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory, and Homosexual transsexual) into one. "Homosexual transsexual" is a term that, due to its confusing (since transsexuals change gender) and oft-insulting nature (it assumes the birth gender), is almost completely unused outside of the context of discussion of Blanchard's theories. Blanchard's mentor, Freund, used the term as well; Blanchard's theories are derived from Freund's.
- To argue against the merger, Hfarmer has been trying to come up with "independent support" for the term in other papers. First, she tried proof by ghost reference with Zucker et al (2003), insisting that a term was used in papers that didn't discuss it at all. When it was exposed that the paper didn't say at all what she said it was about, she switched focus to papers from Vasey about the fa'afafine. This was always an odd choice, since she even admitted that Vasey didn't use the term, but insisted that "androphilia" (love of men) means the same thing as "homosexual transsexual" (it doesn't; a straight woman is androphilic). It's even an odder choice because the Fa'afafine aren't transsexuals. Yet she kept insisting that the papers proved independent confirmation of "homosexual transsexual" being a valid topic outside of Blanchard's theories.
- Rather that insist that the sky is blue over and over, I decided to simply email Vasey. No surprise -- just like the last time, when I had to do this with Moser, Vasey staunchly disagreed with how Hfarmer was representing his papers.. Rather than accept that she is misrepresenting his paper (in a way that I still can't comprehend how she could possibly think it's about "homosexual transsexuals" without using the term or being about transsexuals), she instead accuses me of WP:OR. Yes, that's original research on a talk page, not the article, for quoting the author of a paper about how someone is grossly misinterpreting his paper.
- I obviously welcome any outside input.
- As a final note: if anyone wants to verify with Vasey himself, his email address is which you can find on his webpage -- 128.255.251.167 (talk) 00:34, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- Whoa, wait a minute: Hfarmer, are you canvassing this? WP:CANVAS In particular, votestacking? You posted private messages to at least one person who you've worked with several times before. -- 128.255.251.167 (talk) 01:41, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- Nothing wrong with contacting someone and noting what they say on the talk page... the information gathered by e-mail, however, can not go in the article and the e-mail be used as a source. Blueboar (talk) 01:58, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- I concur, personal correspondence such as this is clearly OR, and should not be used. That it's being used for talk discussions is slightly different than using for an article, but nonetheless, I think it's not a good approach. Also, it is probably best to not post people's email here. --Nuujinn (talk) 02:08, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- Nothing wrong with contacting someone and noting what they say on the talk page... the information gathered by e-mail, however, can not go in the article and the e-mail be used as a source. Blueboar (talk) 01:58, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- Whoa, wait a minute: Hfarmer, are you canvassing this? WP:CANVAS In particular, votestacking? You posted private messages to at least one person who you've worked with several times before. -- 128.255.251.167 (talk) 01:41, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
British Empire - 15 million Indian famine deaths
I am claiming a WP:SYN violation in the following statement of the featured article "British Empire ":
| “ | India suffered a series of serious crop failures in the late 19th century, leading to widespread famines in which it is estimated that over 15 million people died. The East India Company had failed to implement any coordinated policy to deal with the famines during its period of rule. This changed during the Raj, in which commissions were set up after each famine to investigate the causes and implement new policies, which took until the early 1900s to have an effect. | ” |
Pages 132, 133, 134 from the cited source are being used - . My reasoning is that the editor has juxtaposed two sentences in a way that attempts to shift the blame of the famine deaths from the British government to British East India Company (EIC). The source records (and it is universal knowledge) that power transfer of governing of India from the EIC to the British government happened in 1858. The source clearly states that all of the relevant famines happened after the British government assumed power. Yet User:The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick denies that this is WP:SYN. The discussion is found on the talk page of the British Empire - .
Please provide an outside third opinion to eliminate any misunderstanding. Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk) 04:33, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- Per the cited source, all the article says is that there was a change in policy - from the East India Company having no coordinated policy re droughts etc, to the British Crown setting up investigative commissions after famines. It is not assigning blame (famines weren't invented by the British - they occurred under the Mughals too you know) and there is no synthesis here at all - the text faithfully conveys the meaning of the cited text. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 07:03, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- The passage seems fine to me. I don't see any 'blame' being assigned. Paul B (talk) 08:51, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- If it did not have "which took until the early 1900s to have an effect." then i could see how it may mislead people but the paragraph looks neutral, covers the main points and is backed up by the source. This is not Synthesis. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:21, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Zuggernaut is adding POV stuff to articles as well. This edit clearly lacks neutrality and needs some attention. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:33, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
It sounds a bit wrong to me. The major famines during the East India Company' rule were in the eighteenth century, just taken on its own mentioning the nineteenth century one might ask why would they put in widespread measures about famine. It sounds like there is a little bit of synthesis but it should be easy enough to fix. Dmcq (talk) 16:59, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- Synthesis is combining multiple sources to reach a conclusion none of the sources reach by themselves. Given that this is all from one source, and given that the conclusion stated in the text is the same as the one in the source, can you please explain in what way it is synthesis, even "a little bit" of synthesis? The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 23:07, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- The two sentences require careful reading. It took me three goes to pick up "during its period of rule" - I was too confused by the mention of the 19th century followed by 1900. I think a change in wording would make it clearer, but there is no synthesis present. The source clearly states that there were famines in India from time immemorial but during EIC control the EIC opted to do nothing about it. When the British Crown took over, they started work investigating famines and started to put relief efforts in place, but this did not prevent some major famines in the second half of the nineteenth century, and it wasn't until around 1900 that they started to get a handle on things.Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:26, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- Similar to my feeling about it as being confusing. And the table on the talk page talks about the company starting in 1818, what on earth is that date about? The really big famines under the East India company as far as I'm aware happened in the eighteenth century and they're the ones that should have prompted it to do something and they certainly had time to actually do something between them and handing over control to the crown. Dmcq (talk) 00:00, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- This is the NOR board, so seeing as we have established that there is no synthesis here, I suggest anyone interested in matters of confusion continues the discussion on the article talk page. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 01:08, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Similar to my feeling about it as being confusing. And the table on the talk page talks about the company starting in 1818, what on earth is that date about? The really big famines under the East India company as far as I'm aware happened in the eighteenth century and they're the ones that should have prompted it to do something and they certainly had time to actually do something between them and handing over control to the crown. Dmcq (talk) 00:00, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- The two sentences require careful reading. It took me three goes to pick up "during its period of rule" - I was too confused by the mention of the 19th century followed by 1900. I think a change in wording would make it clearer, but there is no synthesis present. The source clearly states that there were famines in India from time immemorial but during EIC control the EIC opted to do nothing about it. When the British Crown took over, they started work investigating famines and started to put relief efforts in place, but this did not prevent some major famines in the second half of the nineteenth century, and it wasn't until around 1900 that they started to get a handle on things.Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:26, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Let's give this some more time than a mere day. Here's some simplification for readers who are feeling confused. Let's start with some background knowledge/vocabulary:
- British Raj (BR) is another term for British government.
- India was governed by EIC until 1858. In 1858 power was formally transferred to BR.
- Let's assume "late 19th century" is defined as the period between January 1, 1851 to December 31, 1900. This is our time period of interest.
There are three sentences involved here.
- Sentence 1 says: A series of famines happened during this period leading to roughly 15 million deaths.
- Sentence 2 says: EIC had screwed up because of inaction. No time frame/context is given.
- Sentence 3 says: The BR fixed things - again no time context given. It then goes on to say that the fixes of the BR took until 1900 to have any impact.
Juxtaposing these three sentences together gives the reader the following impression (IMO):
| “ | Famines caused 15 million deaths between January 1, 1851 to December 31, 1900. This was because of EIC screw-ups. Things got better after 1900 because BR fixed things. | ” |
This misleads the reader by suggesting that the EIC continued to screw up things even after it had given up power in 1858 (oxymoron). It also misleads the reader even by suggesting that the causes of deaths between 1858 and 1900 are to be blamed on EIC and not the BR. The reality is the BR was to blame for the deaths between 1858 and 1900, not the EIC. Classic WP:SYN. Zuggernaut (talk) 01:13, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, the real reality is that famine was to blame for the deaths... and it is an opinion that either the EIC (or BR or whoever) should have been able to prevent the famines. We need to be careful here. We should not state (or even imply) this opinion as fact. If the author holds the opinion, we should directly attribute it to the author. Blueboar (talk) 01:25, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- There is no such suggestion. The sentence clearly states that the EIC had (past tense) done very little, but the BR instituted investigations. We all know that EIC rule ended in 1858, and nothing in the passage contradicts that. Your attempt to imply that this distorts the facts is wholly unwarranted. BTW, the passage says nothing about the EIC "screwing up", just that they just that they didn't do anything much, for whatever reason. Whether the BR is "to blame" for later famines is a matter of interpretation, not "reality", but there is nothing in the passage that suggests that such famines did not occur under the Imperial government. Paul B (talk) 01:42, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- The author states that the cause of deaths was starvation, not the famine. Zuggernaut (talk) 01:37, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Same difference. My point is that to conform to WP:NOR (and WP:NPOV) we should neither state nor imply any governmental responsibility for the deaths (or responsibility for preventing the deaths) unless the source does so... and if the source does so, then we should word what we say in the article as being the author's opinion. Blueboar (talk) 01:48, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- The way I see it, this is not synthesis. It is possible, though unlikely, that the wording gives the incorrect impression that the EIC was unable to handle famines but that the Raj was. That is easily taken care of by changing the last two sentences to "After the end of the EIC in 1858, the British government in India set up commissions after each famine to investigate causes and implement new policies. However, it was not until the early 1900 that the results of these investigations had an effect." I don't think that would be a mis-stating of the citation. --RegentsPark (talk) 01:56, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Id support that change, although i think its already clear enough. BritishWatcher (talk) 02:00, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- The way I see it, this is not synthesis. It is possible, though unlikely, that the wording gives the incorrect impression that the EIC was unable to handle famines but that the Raj was. That is easily taken care of by changing the last two sentences to "After the end of the EIC in 1858, the British government in India set up commissions after each famine to investigate causes and implement new policies. However, it was not until the early 1900 that the results of these investigations had an effect." I don't think that would be a mis-stating of the citation. --RegentsPark (talk) 01:56, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Same difference. My point is that to conform to WP:NOR (and WP:NPOV) we should neither state nor imply any governmental responsibility for the deaths (or responsibility for preventing the deaths) unless the source does so... and if the source does so, then we should word what we say in the article as being the author's opinion. Blueboar (talk) 01:48, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- The author states that the cause of deaths was starvation, not the famine. Zuggernaut (talk) 01:37, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
It seems confusing to me. It is not clear that any famines occurred under East India Company rule, since the famines in the "late 19th century" may all have occurred after 1858. There would then have been no need for the Company to investigate. However, I do not see this as a POV problem. Whether India was ruled by a Company under a royal charter or by a viceroy, the ultimate responsibility would lie in the same place. TFD (talk) 16:35, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Jack Cuozzo
I think there is OR in this article in two places. The first is the comment in the lead "A recent analysis of a first draft of the Neanderthal genome by a team in May 2010 indicates interbreeding may have occurred, thus lending weight to Cuozzo's theory." where the sources don't mention Cuozzo, The second is similar, "An SEM micrograph has since revealed what appears to be a blood vessel in the bone/rock previously identified as the mastoid.". However here the link it to Cuozzo's website, and I'm not clear (too early in the AM) about its use here. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 05:37, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
Somali Piracy - use of picture
Hi there, on the Piracy in Somalia page there is an image being used that I don't think is appropriate, but others claim is. In my view, its use is inappropriate because it is unnecessary (doesn't add information to the article) and presents the matter with some bias (ie endorses the notion that Somali piracy is justified by illegal nuclear dumping). I don't know the rules on image use very well and was hoping someone here could give some guidance... Thanks a lot, TastyCakes (talk) 19:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- It seems appropriate in context - the section is largely about the relationship between piracy and dumping of that sort. why would you think this image constitutes original research? It might be that the section as a whole is OR (I haven't read carefully enough to render an opinion), but the picture seems useable for the section. --Ludwigs2 19:55, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't really think it is original research, it's more like synthesis or inappropriate use I suppose, I posted here because someone at the main help desk suggested so. My concern is mostly that the picture is included just because it looks neat and is freely available, while not actually adding to the article. I think there is also an element of it suggesting that these are pirates defined entirely by the issue of nuclear dumping - that they are pirates solely to protect their shores against nuclear dumping - when in reality it is at most a small part of their motivation. TastyCakes (talk) 17:58, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2 asks a pretty good question - whether or not the section itself is appropriate. I did a brief check, and many of the sources currently used there are somewhat questionable. However, a quick check also reveals that better sources are available on this topic. I added one to the article as an example. Re the image itself, I'm undecided. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 20:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Air Rhodesia Flight 825
A certain "Keith Nell", former member of the Rodhesian SAS, is being quoted as the source of unpublished comments on this incident. I am tempted to be bold and remove them altogether. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.223.243 (talk • contribs) 23:03, 13 September 2010
- Ask on the talk page, or check the history and see who added it so you can discuss the source. If no response, delete the material after a certain period. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Aspartame: OR/Synthesis Dispute
I would like to resolve a dispute regarding my additions to aspartame. It appears there are a few bulldog-like editors patrolling it constantly, biting anyone who challenges their article. They keep undoing my edits, accusing me of all sorts, this time- original research and synthesis, wheras I beg to differ: I stuck to what the numerous reliable sources I cited say exactly. There is nothing original, I have not synthesized anything, and every single statement is verifiable - yet they keep deleting it all - every single word is deemed unworthy of their article!
Please can an administrator or two have a look through the aspartame page to assess this and make a decision on the content of my latest addition or my suggestions on the discussion, which I done to clarify a biased statement (explained in the discussion), or advise where to go from here? I don't even mind if it is all deleted, the only position I want to advance is a NPOV. It is quite a complex, controversial subject, and for a full picture, edits, sources and discussions of the aspartame page will need to be checked (which are quite lengthy). Thank you.КĐ 03:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- It certainly looks to me like you were putting in material that didn't refer even indirectly to aspartame, and that you were joining together sentences to come to a conclusion rather than summarizing somebody else's conclusion. So yes what your citations were verifiable, but they weren't reasonably closely connected to the topic and they were joined together in a synthesis which is what original research is about. I'm not saying the conclusion is right or wrong, what I'm saying is Misplaced Pages doesn't publish original research - it needs to be published somewhere else first. Dmcq (talk) 08:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- What would be your suggestion for improvement? It was not my intention to join it together to form an assumed conclusion, so could it not be re-written in a way that avoids this? You're right that they didn't refer to aspartame directly, but it was in the section for metabolized products of aspartame, (I.e. methanol), and the edits only pertain to methanol, a notable product of metabolization of aspartame (expanding the previous statement about methanol in fruit juice, which only gives half the story). Thanks for the input.КĐ 09:10, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- You clearly feel it is important to include something like this. However the policy is quite clear. The reason for this is to stop Misplaced Pages getting filled with things that people think are important but are not verifiably so, where verifiably means some reliable source has said something very similar about the topic. And the topic here is aspartame. There's an article about methanol which the references you provided seem appropriate to. You might be able to link to an appropriate section of the methanol article or other article that says what you wanted to say, but you can't branch into an inline essay about the problem unless that discussion is linked to aspartame in the literature. Dmcq (talk) 11:29, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, thank you for the clarification. And also, thank you for being civil about it.КĐ 19:10, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- The article reports that the levels of methanol are lower in diet sodas than in fruit juices and are therefore safe. You have provided evidence that fruit juices are safe because they contain an antidote which aspartame does not. However you would need to find a source that makes that argument, rather than making it yourself. Of course there are other issues in presenting that information, but they do not relate to OR. TFD (talk) 16:22, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, thank you for the clarification. And also, thank you for being civil about it.КĐ 19:10, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- You clearly feel it is important to include something like this. However the policy is quite clear. The reason for this is to stop Misplaced Pages getting filled with things that people think are important but are not verifiably so, where verifiably means some reliable source has said something very similar about the topic. And the topic here is aspartame. There's an article about methanol which the references you provided seem appropriate to. You might be able to link to an appropriate section of the methanol article or other article that says what you wanted to say, but you can't branch into an inline essay about the problem unless that discussion is linked to aspartame in the literature. Dmcq (talk) 11:29, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Original Research by editor Esoglou on the Roman Catholic–Eastern Orthodox theological differences article.
Talk:Roman_Catholic–Eastern_Orthodox_theological_differences#Intervention_by_Andrew_Lancaster The Editor Esoglou is attempting to force into the above article the idea that there is agreement between the two theologies of the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic church based not on Roman Catholic official sources and directly against Eastern Orthodox representatives, sources. The editor Esoglou continually does not like what sources (Orthodox theologians) have said about the differences between the churches and continues to wiki hound and edit war and go against consensus in order to deny or discredit or under mine what the sources posted in the article say. Please look at the Talk:Roman_Catholic–Eastern_Orthodox_theological_differences#Orthodox_Church_of_America section for example.
The Editor Esoglou is doing this not by posting Roman Catholic sources or any sources information but by creating counter sources in misrepresenting Orthodox sources. Also Esoglou is wiki hounding by misusing source tagging requests and also not listening to corrects pointed out to by editors to the article other than just me. LoveMonkey (talk) 14:12, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- I find curious the claim that I am trying in the
Nuclear football photo
This article of "A briefcase alleged to be the nuclear football"--i.e., a briefcase that some Misplaced Pages editor(s) think is the nuclear football. To me this seems like original research, but it keeps getting added back so other opinions would be useful.Prezbo (talk) 21:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- A briefcase that the person who put the photo in said was a nuclear briefcase. I don't think this is covered by the original research policy, I'm not sure exactly what policy covers a dispute by people saying they want more proof that a photo is correct but without any grounds that I can see for doubting them. The images as far as I can see are included for illustrative purposes rather than as an integral part of the text. Dmcq (talk) 23:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- So you're saying that you don't think this is original research, or you think the evidence that it's the nuclear football is adequate? The grounds for doubting this would be that the nuclear football isn't publicly identified and there might be other reasons for military personnel to be carrying a briefcase in the president's vicinity. Everything is "covered by the original research policy."Prezbo (talk) 23:53, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think both that this problem is not covered by the original research policy and that the evidence is that it is the nuclear football. The photo is identified in commons as the nuclear briefcase and I see no reason to doubt that. You should have better arguments against illustrative photos than you gave. Exactly how many people walk near the American president carrying briefcases like this? Do you think the whole idea of a nuclear briefcase is made up? Misplaced Pages customarily allows photos for illustrative purposes which haven't appeared in reliable sources and if anything the appropriate policy against that would be verifiability. You're not going to get very far with trying to remove nine tenths of the illustrations on Misplaced Pages on the grounds of verifiability though, the major ground you could use is that they are wrong, bad or doubtful and I don't think you have shown that. I believe there should be something to cover this area explicitly and there may be one but I don't know what it is. Dmcq (talk) 07:13, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Using maps to determine locations
As per Talk:ENSCO,_Inc. some editors have expressed concerns about using U.S. census bureau maps to determine whether places are located within a government-defined census-designated place.
As an example:
- This is a city map of Falls Church, Virginia: http://www.fallschurchva.gov/Content/Docs/Map_CityStreetIndex.pdf
- This is the map of the U.S. government CDP of Anandale, Virginia: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/MapItDrawServlet?geo_id=16000US5101912&_bucket_id=50&tree_id=420&context=saff&_lang=en&_sse=on
- http://www.ensco.com/contact-us/office-locations.htm states the address is at "3110 Fairview Park Drive, Suite 300
Falls Church, Virginia 22042-4501" - Even though the postal address says "Falls Church, Virginia," put the address in a map and one will see it is well outside of the city limits.
- Fairfax County, VA grid map: http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/maps/images/PDFViewerImages/TaxGridMap4download.pdf
Also, ENSCO is within an unincorporated area in Fairfax County, Virginia. In Virginia cities are independent of and not within county governments, so it is not possible for ENSCO to be within Fairfax County and Falls Church City at the same time.
Annandale, Virginia is about the census-designated place as defined by the U.S. government, not about any local understandings of the place. There have been no references supplied stating what the local understandings of Annandale, VA are. So the US government map is the only definition we have of "Annandale, Virginia."
Secondary sources in the United States have a habit of approximating place names based on USPS addresses. I.E. a newspaper may say a place is in "Somewheresville, XT" even though the place is outside of the city limits, so in my view it is problematic to say that secondary sources always have supremacy over primary sources in this instance. WhisperToMe (talk) 12:01, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- Census maps are reliable secondary sources, and so are valid references. However, secondary sources can disagree... and WP:NPOV states that we have to account for all significant viewpoints. A map does not "prove" that a place is located within a designated area... it merely verifies that according to the map maker it does so. So... it is fine to state what the US Census says about the location (and cite the Census map)... but you also need to mention what the USGS (Geological survey) says, what the USPS (Post office) says, and what other sources say. Blueboar (talk) 13:46, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- How I handle this is that I say...
- XXX place is located in YYY city/census designated place/town/whatever, near ZZZ.
- What "ZZZ" is can be:
- Nearest major/large city
- City which some secondary sources may imprecisely say (such as the Herrington Chronicle may say XXX place is in WWW, even though WWW is 2 miles away)
- USPS city name, if it does not reflect where the place is physically located.
- For instance the Dar Al-Hijrah article says "The Dar Al-Hijrah Islamic Center (Arabic: مركز دار الهجرة الاسلامي, English: Land of Migration) is a mosque in Northern Virginia. It is located in Seven Corners, unincorporated Fairfax County, in the Falls Church area." - We agreed to that after discussion of things.
- The actual location is Seven Corners, so that needs to be posted. But the USPS postal address and many media articles refer to it as being in Falls Church, so that also has to be mentioned.
- This format satisfies both the physical location (US Census Bureau) and the nearest major city/USPS city name.
- As for "it merely verifies that according to the map maker it does so." - The US Government itself creates the census designated places, so I believe that any map from a US government agency would be authoritative on this matter.
- However if other agencies all prepare different maps of the same CDPs, it would be good to know as it may be better to have a high quality map than a low quality map, for instance.
- WhisperToMe (talk) 14:14, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Judaization of Jerusalem
There is a dispute as to whether or not certain material is synthesis at the article Judaization of Jerusalem. The material in question is in this diff. AMuseo argues that it is "inappropriate" to have an article on Judaization efforts by the Israeli government and not include what he feels is important material related to religious freedom. Two users, Tiamut and myself, argue that sources must relate that material to the topic of the article. Is it OR to include material that sources do not relate to the topic of the article? nableezy - 15:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Libertarianism
Can we use the website of Libertarianz as a source for Libertarianism? An editor wishes to use the principles listed on the website as evidence of the "predominant use of the term "Libertarian" in New Zealand's politics". TFD (talk) 15:57, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Hijinks at Challenger Deep
I need some help in the Challenger Deep article. An editor has the frankly hilarious claim that a Berkeley Law article on the international law of nuclear waste dumping at sea can't be used as a source, because it doesn't mention this specific location (deep in the Marianas Trench) on the ocean. I point out the article makes it clear that any such dumping at sea is banned by treaty, according to the article, and that the article further states who has and hasn't ratified the treaty. He still continues to claim that, unless the law article has the specific text "Challenger Deep" in it, it can't be used in this article. Fell Gleaming 13:22, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- FellGleaming is asking for his edits to be personally exempted from WP:OR, WP:SYN, and WP:COAT so he can push another one of his POV on Challenger Deep. The long and the short of it is that we have at least one good source, a textbook by David W. Hafemeister that discusses how nuclear waste could be placed in the Challenger Deep ocean trench, but that doing so violates the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea treaty. However, paraphrasing from the sources is not good enough for Fell. He wants the article to advance the position that the United States and Russia don't have to follow the treaty. I pointed out to Fell that this is not in the Hafemeister source. Fell believes he can use any source on any topic to advance his position, which tells me, that even though he's been here since 2008, he still doesn't get the sourcing policy and guidelines. It isn't even clear how he proposes to use this off-topic source. Although it is difficult to understand his motivation, according to the page history, Fell previously deleted content that stated dumping was banned by treaty, making it seem like dumping nuclear waste in the trench was not only possible, but a good idea. When I showed him that the Hafemeister source said it was banned, he then said that U.S. and Russia don't have to follow it and demanded to add that to the article. As one can tell from the full background thread on the talk page, it is extremely difficult to communicate in simple language with Fell, so help is greatly appreciated. Viriditas (talk) 13:40, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
- Marshall, pp. 133–34.