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| ::::::::What the sources say is an irrelavant straw man argument. Of course there are sources that say "Palestine" is the legal governing entity over the area. Just like there are sources that say Israel is the governing entity of the area. It is not a question of sourcing, but a question of providing the reader with the information the reader wants in a neutral manner. Wikpedia is not a travel guide, but it is also not a legal scholarly text book. Again, the reader's primary interest is who controls the area. That's how the average reader decides "where" it is.--'']] ]'' 21:39, 21 October 2010 (UTC) | ::::::::What the sources say is an irrelavant straw man argument. Of course there are sources that say "Palestine" is the legal governing entity over the area. Just like there are sources that say Israel is the governing entity of the area. It is not a question of sourcing, but a question of providing the reader with the information the reader wants in a neutral manner. Wikpedia is not a travel guide, but it is also not a legal scholarly text book. Again, the reader's primary interest is who controls the area. That's how the average reader decides "where" it is.--'']] ]'' 21:39, 21 October 2010 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::::Ah, the tried and true tactic of choice for the POV-push. The sources are "irrelevant". I think I found a quote to add to my userpage. I thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for demonstrating just how little you care about the policies of this website. It is refreshing to see a user come out and say he does not care what the sources say, that what matters is what he wants. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 21:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | :::::::::Ah, the tried and true tactic of choice for the POV-push. The sources are "irrelevant". I think I found a quote to add to my userpage. I thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for demonstrating just how little you care about the policies of this website. It is refreshing to see a user come out and say he does not care what the sources say, that what matters is what he wants. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 21:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | ||
| ::::::::::You're creating a straw man argument and that's unfair. The sources are irrelevant because thats not the locus of the dispute. There is no question what the sources say. Its a question of content and which sourced content should be primary and which sourced content should be secondary. Claiming that i am a "pov-pusher" because i say the sources are "irrelevant" is not reflective of the conversation we are having. Please don't do that. --'']] ]'' 21:48, 21 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 21:48, 21 October 2010
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Reliability of sources
Given source says: "In March 1997, around 500 Arab students marched on the site hurling firebombs and stones." This is correct report of what the book says regarding March 20. By contrast, Jerusalem Post on March 21 says "several dozen Palestinian youths hurled rocks at soldiers guarding Rachel's Tomb outside Bethlehem. ... In Bethlehem, trouble resumed after nightfall, as four firebombs lit up the new fortress style-wall protecting Rachel's Tomb, but caused no damage." There is quite a difference between 500 and several dozen. Looking at the book, its polemic nature is evident. Zero 01:16, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
- Taken out "500" claim. Chesdovi (talk) 13:31, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Location
Its not in Israel, its in the West bank. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
- The West Bank is Israeli land that is currently being occupied by Muslim invaders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Termswagon2 (talk • contribs) 22:48, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
The location is in the west bank, not Jerusalem. See this source: --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:42, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- The tomb, located in Bethlehem, has been "annexed" to Jerusalem by Israel. Chesdovi (talk) 16:24, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Whatever "annexation" Israel does in the west bank has no validity, you know this. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:29, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Valid or not, its municipal and physical location is in Jerusalem. Chesdovi (talk) 16:33, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- No it isn't. Its an occupation of land in the West bank. You can ad: "Israeli occupied West bank" if you want. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:34, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- If we are going to use that field for its presumed political location rather than its de-facto location, surely "UN Corpus sepataum" is more accurate? Chesdovi (talk) 16:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Its de facto location is that its in the west bank occupied by Israel, it is not in Jerusalem or in Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:43, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- It was in the WB till a few years ago, when it was included behind the wall and is now considered to be part of Jerusalem. Chesdovi (talk) 16:53, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- This is located in what the world, almost without exception, considers to be Palestinian territory. It is a minority view it is in Israel and as such is a NPOV violation for us to say, as a fact and with a flag, that it is in Israel. nableezy - 17:52, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- The location field should not show the where the world "considers" it, but the de-facto sovreign nation which holds control over that territory. Chesdovi (talk) 17:54, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- The control is an occupation, its not part of Israel or Jerusalem. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:57, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Change the word "consider" with "recognizes". Israel occupies this territory, it is not in Israel and to say that it is in Israel is a NPOV violation as you are saying in the narrative voice something that the overwhelming majority of sources say is not true. nableezy - 17:59, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- If the Israeli flag flies above the tomb, its fair for it to be displayed in the infobox.
It is in the WB.It is in J. And in I. Chesdovi (talk) 18:01, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- If the Israeli flag flies above the tomb, its fair for it to be displayed in the infobox.
- Change the word "consider" with "recognizes". Israel occupies this territory, it is not in Israel and to say that it is in Israel is a NPOV violation as you are saying in the narrative voice something that the overwhelming majority of sources say is not true. nableezy - 17:59, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- The control is an occupation, its not part of Israel or Jerusalem. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:57, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- The location field should not show the where the world "considers" it, but the de-facto sovreign nation which holds control over that territory. Chesdovi (talk) 17:54, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- This is located in what the world, almost without exception, considers to be Palestinian territory. It is a minority view it is in Israel and as such is a NPOV violation for us to say, as a fact and with a flag, that it is in Israel. nableezy - 17:52, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- It was in the WB till a few years ago, when it was included behind the wall and is now considered to be part of Jerusalem. Chesdovi (talk) 16:53, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Its de facto location is that its in the west bank occupied by Israel, it is not in Jerusalem or in Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:43, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- If we are going to use that field for its presumed political location rather than its de-facto location, surely "UN Corpus sepataum" is more accurate? Chesdovi (talk) 16:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- No it isn't. Its an occupation of land in the West bank. You can ad: "Israeli occupied West bank" if you want. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:34, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Valid or not, its municipal and physical location is in Jerusalem. Chesdovi (talk) 16:33, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Whatever "annexation" Israel does in the west bank has no validity, you know this. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:29, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Israeli flag can not be for this place in the Palestinian territories. Thats not a neutral point of view. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:26, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Just adding to Chesdovi, it is considered "Area C." That means it is under full Israeli security and civilian administration. Pursuant to the Oslo Accords, the PLO recognizes this designation so it is fair to display the Israeli flag.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 18:31, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- It being in Area C does not mean it is in Israel. All Area C means is the territory is under Israeli control, it does not mean, and no sources say it means, that the territory is Israeli in any meaning other than Israeli occupied. Neither the PLO nor any other state recognizes that this territory is anything other than Palestinian territory. nableezy - 18:35, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
If you insist on including "Israel" as the location because a single state says it is in Israel then you also need to include that it is recognized as being in the Palestinian territories. As the flag of Israel was returned, I have added the Palestinian flag and the fact that it is recognized as being in the Palestinian territories. I would rather not have to have articles like these overly-politicized, but West Bank with no flag was apparently no good enough for some of the people here who felt it important to include the extreme minority position that this is in Israel. nableezy - 18:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- It is not recognised as I or P land. But there are places under full PA control, and they can display the PA flag. Areas under full Israeli control can display the Israel flag. Thats why Joseph's tomb is described as being in the PA (I will add the flag) as is Ancient synagogue (Eshtemoa). Chesdovi (talk) 22:11, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- The West bank is internatioanlly recognized as Palestinian land. We can therefor not have the Israeli flag for any part of this area. The same way we can not have the Palestinian flag for an area in Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:30, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- Is West Jerusalem internatioanlly recognized as Israeli? Chesdovi (talk) 23:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- By most countries, the UK being a notable exception. The edit you just made is garbage and as I still respect you I kindly request you self-revert. The only state in the world that says this is in Israel is Israel. Every other state, the UN, and countless NGOs all say it is in the occupied Palestinian territories. If you want to say that it is "de facto" in Israel you need to also include that it is recognized as within the Palestinian territories. nableezy - 00:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Here is a source giving the location as "Bethlehem, Palestinian Authority". Here is a source saying that Rachel's Tomb was to be treated within "Area B" in the Oslo Accords with a special status and that Israel disregarded that agreement and treated it as "Area C", but that it is not even "Area C". Whether or not it is "Area C" is irrelevant anyway; A, B, C, all of the West Bank is occupied Palestinian territory. That Israel has enclosed portions of occupied territory within a wall does not make this place in Israel. That Israel makes up a "Jerusalem envelope" does not mean this place is in Jerusalem. And just because Israel says all of Jerusalem, and apparently its "envelope", is in Israel does not mean it is in Israel. nableezy - 03:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Is West Jerusalem internatioanlly recognized as Israeli? Chesdovi (talk) 23:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
- The West bank is internatioanlly recognized as Palestinian land. We can therefor not have the Israeli flag for any part of this area. The same way we can not have the Palestinian flag for an area in Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:30, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Have the municipal boundaries of Jerusalem been extended to encompass Rachel's Tomb? I mean officially extended. Source? Zero 02:10, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- I have found that the cabinet approved to annex the tomb to Jerusalem in 2003 Chesdovi (talk) 10:55, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- I believe the answer to my question is "no", in which case the tomb is not even in Israel according to Israel's own reckoning. Its location in the West Bank is clear in a ruling of the High Court of Israel, see . Note that the court applied the law of belligerent occupation and not the domestic law of Israel. In summary, it is not in Israel as an undisputed fact. Zero 07:35, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Is West Jerusalem internationally recognized as Israeli? No. Is RT internationally recognized as PT? No. Both are located within the CS, a neutral zone. The flag displayed should be the one affiliated to the party which excersises control over the site. Chesdovi (talk) 10:55, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Chesdovi, your source does not even say it is in Jerusalem. You have repeatedly placed a falsehood in this article, and this time you replaced a solid source with another source that does not even support what you have placed in the article. That was also your 4th revert. Self-revert. nableezy - 13:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your source was not "solid". It was false. You know yourself as attested to in Strickerts book, that the tomb was originally in Area B, and your source places it only in Area "A". Also, that book was from 2002, a year before it was annexed. My source says it was annexed? Obviously to Jerusalem as shown above, (and here again). Chesdovi (talk) 15:00, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your source does not say it was annexed, your source does not say it is in Jerusalem, your source does not say it is in Israel. Last chance, self-revert or I'll need to ask for administrative help. nableezy - 15:18, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- “Which would de facto annex Rachel’s’ tomb into Jerusalem. The cabinet approved the change. What's not clear Nab? Chesdovi (talk) 16:02, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Are you really this dense? The book you are citing is saying that Israel's separating this site from the rest of the occupied territories with its wall would "de-facto annex" the site, it does not say that it is in Israel much less that it is in Jerusalem. As you have declined to self-revert I will be going to an admin board. nableezy - 16:04, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Annex it to what. It has been annexed to Jerusalem. This may not be recognised, but it is reality:
- Are you really this dense? The book you are citing is saying that Israel's separating this site from the rest of the occupied territories with its wall would "de-facto annex" the site, it does not say that it is in Israel much less that it is in Jerusalem. As you have declined to self-revert I will be going to an admin board. nableezy - 16:04, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- “Which would de facto annex Rachel’s’ tomb into Jerusalem. The cabinet approved the change. What's not clear Nab? Chesdovi (talk) 16:02, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your source does not say it was annexed, your source does not say it is in Jerusalem, your source does not say it is in Israel. Last chance, self-revert or I'll need to ask for administrative help. nableezy - 15:18, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Haareatz article cited in my source: “"IDF Plan Puts Rachel's Tomb Inside Jerusalem's New Security Borders," &” Rachel's Tomb to Be Annexed — De Facto ...”
- "Separately in the West Bank, Palestinian officials said the Israeli Army had distributed notices to families in northern Bethlehem that the land there would be annexed to Jerusalem. There was no immediate response from the Israeli Army.” February 17, 2003 New York Times
- "Rachel's Tomb was no longer to be considered part of Bethlehem but was being annexed to Jerusalem. The transition was complete from Area A to Area B, and now to Area C”. page 135.
- "We marched peacefully and sat near Rachel's Tomb ". Chesdovi (talk) 16:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- What is "reality" is that this site is located in occupied Palestinian territory and that you insist on only including extreme minority views on this topic and have no problem removing what is the majority viewpoint. nableezy - 16:22, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- See. I provide the sources you so require. And you just chnage the subject. I think this is the third time you have ignored my sources. Chesdovi (talk) 16:39, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- No, you, as you apparently do often, misrepresent your own sources. Area C is occupied Palestinian territory, an administrative zone of the West Bank; if your source says it is in Area C it is in the West Bank, not Israel. There are no Israeli checkpoints in Israel. If your source says there is an Israeli checkpoint there it is not in Israel. Even if Israel were to declare this territory annexed that would not make it in Israel. East Jerusalem is not Israel. The Golan is not in Israel. An occupying power cannot annex occupied territory. This is a well-established fact. You have repeatedly misrepresented both the your own sources and the facts in this article. nableezy - 16:46, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- The sources say it has been annexed. Whether or not this is seen as a legal move by the IC is a not relevant here. The infobox should show where it is located. In 2002 it was in the CS/WB/OPT/Area B, now it is in annexed Israeli WB territory. Whether or not this move is valid is of no concern when it comes to then infobox icon which shows where it is politically and physically located. Not what it’s claimed location is. How can we have the PA flag when it does not exercise control over the location. That is misleading. Leave the political descriptions for the main article. Chesdovi (talk) 17:18, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Israel building a wall around this place does not magically mean it is not in the Palestinian territories. We have the Palestinian flag (not a PA flag) for a site in the Palestinian territories. nableezy - 17:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I will delete the location while this is dispute. Clearly there is no consensus establish to change location to say "Bethlehem, West Bank" with Palestinian flag. I disagree to this, it has been annex to Jerusalem by Israel. Several other editor agree here. So I will delete that stuff no until we can reach agreement. LibiBamizrach (talk) 18:59, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Technical legalities aside, Israel is unquestionably the de facto governing entity over the Tomb. Thus, any information that does not make this clear to the reader does a disservice to the reader. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:47, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- And does any information that does not make clear that this is located in the occupied Palestinian territory, as it unquestionably is, do a disservice to the reader? nableezy - 20:53, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- not as much. readers are most likely more interested in who controls the area, then who perhaps should control the area.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:58, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Nobody said who "should" control the area. The question is "where" is this place. You dont think that is important? Interesting. nableezy - 21:00, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- where it is depends on what perspective you are using. To the neutral reader its the de facto governing entity that decides where something is, not the de jure governing entity. If a reader is going to Cyprus for vacation, and wants some information about Cyprus, the reader does not care if as much if Turkey is the legal governing entity or Greece (or whoever is fighting with whoever). The reader wants to know who controls the area. The reader wants to know what type of visa is needed, what type of cell phone to get. This depends on the de facto governing entity, not the de jure governing entity. That's how the reader decides "where" something is. This is not to say that we should hide from the reader the issues surrounding the "legality" of the controlling power. However this information should be secondary to the more important information about who controls the area. And to the neutral or uninterested reader, who controls the area defines "where" it is. Messing up the priorities of the readers because of a pov-push is not what we do here. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:14, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- No, the location does not depend on "perspective", it depends on sources. Sources say this is located in the Palestinian territories in the occupied West Bank east of the Green Line. None of those things are disputable. Misplaced Pages is not a travel guide, it is an encyclopedia. If we have an ignorant reader it is not our job to allow that reader to maintain their ignorance, what we should do is educate that reader. nableezy - 21:25, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- What the sources say is an irrelavant straw man argument. Of course there are sources that say "Palestine" is the legal governing entity over the area. Just like there are sources that say Israel is the governing entity of the area. It is not a question of sourcing, but a question of providing the reader with the information the reader wants in a neutral manner. Wikpedia is not a travel guide, but it is also not a legal scholarly text book. Again, the reader's primary interest is who controls the area. That's how the average reader decides "where" it is.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:39, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, the tried and true tactic of choice for the POV-push. The sources are "irrelevant". I think I found a quote to add to my userpage. I thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for demonstrating just how little you care about the policies of this website. It is refreshing to see a user come out and say he does not care what the sources say, that what matters is what he wants. nableezy - 21:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- You're creating a straw man argument and that's unfair. The sources are irrelevant because thats not the locus of the dispute. There is no question what the sources say. Its a question of content and which sourced content should be primary and which sourced content should be secondary. Claiming that i am a "pov-pusher" because i say the sources are "irrelevant" is not reflective of the conversation we are having. Please don't do that. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:48, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, the tried and true tactic of choice for the POV-push. The sources are "irrelevant". I think I found a quote to add to my userpage. I thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for demonstrating just how little you care about the policies of this website. It is refreshing to see a user come out and say he does not care what the sources say, that what matters is what he wants. nableezy - 21:42, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- What the sources say is an irrelavant straw man argument. Of course there are sources that say "Palestine" is the legal governing entity over the area. Just like there are sources that say Israel is the governing entity of the area. It is not a question of sourcing, but a question of providing the reader with the information the reader wants in a neutral manner. Wikpedia is not a travel guide, but it is also not a legal scholarly text book. Again, the reader's primary interest is who controls the area. That's how the average reader decides "where" it is.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:39, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- No, the location does not depend on "perspective", it depends on sources. Sources say this is located in the Palestinian territories in the occupied West Bank east of the Green Line. None of those things are disputable. Misplaced Pages is not a travel guide, it is an encyclopedia. If we have an ignorant reader it is not our job to allow that reader to maintain their ignorance, what we should do is educate that reader. nableezy - 21:25, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- where it is depends on what perspective you are using. To the neutral reader its the de facto governing entity that decides where something is, not the de jure governing entity. If a reader is going to Cyprus for vacation, and wants some information about Cyprus, the reader does not care if as much if Turkey is the legal governing entity or Greece (or whoever is fighting with whoever). The reader wants to know who controls the area. The reader wants to know what type of visa is needed, what type of cell phone to get. This depends on the de facto governing entity, not the de jure governing entity. That's how the reader decides "where" something is. This is not to say that we should hide from the reader the issues surrounding the "legality" of the controlling power. However this information should be secondary to the more important information about who controls the area. And to the neutral or uninterested reader, who controls the area defines "where" it is. Messing up the priorities of the readers because of a pov-push is not what we do here. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:14, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- Nobody said who "should" control the area. The question is "where" is this place. You dont think that is important? Interesting. nableezy - 21:00, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- not as much. readers are most likely more interested in who controls the area, then who perhaps should control the area.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:58, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
- And does any information that does not make clear that this is located in the occupied Palestinian territory, as it unquestionably is, do a disservice to the reader? nableezy - 20:53, 21 October 2010 (UTC)