Talk:Kutha meat: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 18:52, 22 November 2010 editSikh-history (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users10,267 edits some notes and please Assume Good Faith← Previous edit		Revision as of 17:47, 24 November 2010 edit undoIntothefire (talk \| contribs)5,160 editsNo edit summaryNext edit →
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	Thanks --] 18:52, 22 November 2010 (UTC)		Thanks --] 18:52, 22 November 2010 (UTC)


			'''Response 2 from Intothefire'''
			:::::*Every single references provided on this article till the date of my first on (22nd Nov) message, are by User Sikh-history .No one else messed up or added references .<br>
			:::::As for the changes you have now effected .
			:::::*Page nos still missing on two references which are now ref no 2 and 3<br>
			:::::*Now: ref no 2 is from a set of books in three volumes ....which volume ??, which page no of that volume ??
			:::::*Now: Ref no 6 from a website is not a primary , or secondary source fit for wikipedia .
			:::::*Now: ref nos 7,8,and 9 are from one single article published on a website , by a gentleman about a book published by a person called Gurbaksh Singh 'Kala Afghana' who was excommunicated from Sikh Panth - Sri Akal Takhat Hukamnama . The book in question has cast doubts on the validity of the sacred Dasam Granth venerated by the Sikhs .<br>
			:::::*'''Now look at my table again'''<BR>
			:::::*row 2and 3 ,was the mixing up of the two references of two different books presented as one , a mistake ?
			:::::*Look at row 4 ....is this your opinion ?? or a credible quote from a verifiable source ...please provide a reference ???
			:::::*Next look at row 5 ....why did you misquote the content clearly given on the SGPC website ...its still there see it again ??
			:::::*'''Now lets look at your response above '''<BR>
			:::::*Your point no3 says ''No Idea - someone's messed it up'' ...please see the history no one messed it , its the way you put it??
			:::::*Your point no 4 says ''it is a summary of the paragraphs below. Please read the rest of the article''...what kind of a reference is this ?? ....you provide a reference to your own summary in the article ????
			:::::*Your point no 5 says ''the Gurumukhi version says "Kutha". Click on the bottom right of the site and the Gurmukhi version comes up. I also don't take kindly to accusations I deliberately misquoted. Please WP:Assume Good Faith. I will ignore it this time.''. My friend am only quoting from the page you provided ...see the version in english ..please read it again ...I dont see anywhere in the reference you provided about it mentioning any other version .
			:::::*your point no 7 says ''must be the second reference. Again, someone messed it up, I think I have corrected it,''.....no , no one messed it , this is what you wrote yourself .Please check the history of the page .
			:::::*Your point no 8 ''Sikh Times is a reliable source. I will kill the vegetarian world link and find a better one''......you provide two sources ....one a non scholarly website ?? which you say you will now kill ?? and the other from The Sikh times . Is that a reliable source ...perhaps a knowledigible editor should be able to provide an informed opinion .
			:::::*Your point nos 9 and 10 state ''Sikh Times'' . An article from a website about a book written by a person excommunicated from the sikh panth . '''3''' references from such a person's book .....and none from the mainstream Sikh opinion ?????<br>

			Considering your complaints and agressive deletions of content vis a vis other editors ,I think its time for an admin to see this and other odd edits by you . <br>
			] (]) 17:47, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Revision as of 17:47, 24 November 2010

Line	Ref provided by user named sikh-history	Ref no	Comment
Kutha (Kuttha) meat is defined as "meat of animal or fowl slaughtered slowly as prescribed by Islamic law	Punjabi-English Dictionary, Punjabi University, Dept. of Punjabi Lexicography, ISBN 8173800952; Hardcover; 2002-10-01	1	Ref OK
It has been more broadly defined as "killing an animal with a prayer"	ref name="ReferenceA" Sikhs and Sikhism, Dr. I.J.Singh, Manohar Publishers ISBN 8173040583	2	Please provide a page no
or "a sacrifice to God"	ref name="ReferenceA Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press ISBN 8170102456; Paperback; 2009-05-30	2	Why is this marked ReferenceA when the book you mention is different ?
There are two views on Kutha meat as defined below, the Sikh view, which sees Kutha as that which has been "sacrificed", and the Hindu view which views Kutha as a means of repression and a non-Hindu Aryan method of slaughter.	cite reference ??		Please Substantiate with a reference
Eating Kutha Meat for a Baptised Sikh is considered to be one of the 4 Cardinal Sins These 4 sins are part of the Sikh Code of Conduct (Rehit Maryada). In the Rehit Marayada, Section Six, it states: The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided: Dishonouring the hair; Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Kutha way; Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse; Using tobacco.	ref:http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html Sikh Code of Conduct Web Site</ref>	3	You have Deliberately misquoted from the SGPC SITE , Point no 2 on the referenced SGPC site states "Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way" But your misquote states "Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Kutha way" Was the misquote from thE SGPC site a mistake ?
These 4 sins are part of the Sikh Code of Conduct (Rehit Maryada). In the Rehit Marayada	ref ibid ,	4	Ibid refers here to which book ??
The reason for Sikhs avoiding Kutha "does not lie in religious tenet but in the view that killing an animal with a prayer is not going to enoble the flesh	ref name="ReferenceA	2	Which book is ReferenceA ??
There is another view that Guru Gobind Singh (the tenth Sikh Guru), instructed his Sikhs not to eat Kutha meat, in order to boycott the Moghul Empire	* ref 5 : http://vegetarian-worldwide.com/links/about-vegetarianism.html The tenth guru, Guru Gobind Singh, prohibited the Sikhs from the consumption of halal or Kutha meat in order to boycott the Mogul Empire. *ref 6 http://www.sikhtimes.com/books_090803a.html Kala Afghana on Non-Vegetarianism	5 6	Ref 5 is A dead link to http://www.vegetarian-worldwide.com You provided a "reliable" reference to a link from a food site ??? and instead of the name of a book you put this long line , what kind of a reliable reference is this ??? Ref 6 is from a website , ...is this a reliable source for wikipedia ?
During Mughal times Hindus viewed Kutha as creating "spiritual weakness among Hindus	ref:ibid	7	Which book is ibid here ??
Also according to Mughal Law of the time, "Hindus were neither permitted to keep weapons at home nor allowed to cook and eat any form of meat	ref :ibid ref	8	Now which book is this
As a result of this many Hindus too will not eat "Kutha". In addition to this according "to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption	ref name="ReferenceA	2	Which book does ibid refer here to ??

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Baffling REFERENCES provided by user named Sikh-history
Hi Sikh-history,
This entire article to date has been contributed by you , considering you are an admin I am truly puzzled by the odd references provided by you . Its another matter that you have also made similarly odd references on other articles .

Next even the external links on this article have a spin .

But first would you please care to provide an explanation of the references here .

Line Ref provided by user named sikh-history Ref no Comment

Kutha (Kuttha) meat is defined as "meat of animal or fowl slaughtered slowly as prescribed by Islamic law Punjabi-English Dictionary, Punjabi University, Dept. of Punjabi Lexicography, ISBN 8173800952; Hardcover; 2002-10-01 1 Ref OK

It has been more broadly defined as "killing an animal with a prayer" ref name="ReferenceA"
Sikhs and Sikhism, Dr. I.J.Singh, Manohar Publishers ISBN 8173040583
2 Please provide a page no

or "a sacrifice to God" ref name="ReferenceA
Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press ISBN 8170102456; Paperback; 2009-05-30 2 Why is this marked ReferenceA when the book you mention is different ?

There are two views on Kutha meat as defined below, the Sikh view, which sees Kutha as that which has been "sacrificed", and the Hindu view which views Kutha as a means of repression and a non-Hindu Aryan method of slaughter. cite reference ?? Please Substantiate with a reference

Eating Kutha Meat for a Baptised Sikh is considered to be one of the 4 Cardinal Sins
These 4 sins are part of the Sikh Code of Conduct (Rehit Maryada). In the Rehit Marayada, Section Six, it states: The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided:
Dishonouring the hair;

Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Kutha way;

Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse;

Using tobacco.
ref:http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html Sikh Code of Conduct Web Site</ref> 3 You have Deliberately misquoted from the SGPC SITE ,
Point no 2 on the referenced SGPC site states "Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way"
But your misquote states "Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Kutha way"
Was the misquote from thE SGPC site a mistake ?

These 4 sins are part of the Sikh Code of Conduct (Rehit Maryada). In the Rehit Marayada ref ibid , 4 Ibid refers here to which book ??

The reason for Sikhs avoiding Kutha "does not lie in religious tenet but in the view that killing an animal with a prayer is not going to enoble the flesh ref name="ReferenceA 2 Which book is ReferenceA ??

There is another view that Guru Gobind Singh (the tenth Sikh Guru), instructed his Sikhs not to eat Kutha meat, in order to boycott the Moghul Empire * ref 5 : http://vegetarian-worldwide.com/links/about-vegetarianism.html The tenth guru, Guru Gobind Singh, prohibited the Sikhs from the consumption of halal or Kutha meat in order to boycott the Mogul Empire.
*ref 6 http://www.sikhtimes.com/books_090803a.html Kala Afghana on Non-Vegetarianism 5
6 Ref 5 is A dead link to http://www.vegetarian-worldwide.com
You provided a "reliable" reference to a link from a food site ???
and instead of the name of a book you put this long line , what kind of a reliable reference is this ???

Ref 6 is from a website , ...is this a reliable source for wikipedia ?

During Mughal times Hindus viewed Kutha as creating "spiritual weakness among Hindus ref:ibid 7 Which book is ibid here ??

Also according to Mughal Law of the time, "Hindus were neither permitted to keep weapons at home nor allowed to cook and eat any form of meat ref :ibid ref 8 Now which book is this

As a result of this many Hindus too will not eat "Kutha". In addition to this according "to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption ref name="ReferenceA 2 Which book does ibid refer here to ??

Two books and one reference no ? ...ref to reference no 2

Which are the eight books refered ?? .....I only see 3 books and the SGPC Site ...which also you have misquoted
Intothefire (talk) 17:56, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
I think when this article was first put together it flowed, but subsequent additions have made the references go all over the place. Using ibid was bad practice on my part however. Will look into int when I get time, which I haven't had much of. Thanks--Sikh-History 18:25, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

A cursory check
on:
Ok

Page 75

No Idea - someone's messed it up.

it is a summary of the paragraphs below. Please read the rest of the article.

the Gurumukhi version says "Kutha". Click on the bottom right of the site and the Gurmukhi version comes up. I also don't take kindly to accusations I deliberately misquoted. Please WP:Assume Good Faith. I will ignore it this time.

ibid refers to the Sikh Code of Conduct web site.

must be the second reference. Again, someone messed it up, I think I have corrected it.

Sikh Times is a reliable source. I will kill the vegetarian world link and find a better one.

Sikh Times

Sikh Times

2nd reference.
Some Notes for you:
This entire article to date has been contributed by you , considering you are an admin I am truly puzzled by the odd references provided by you . Its another matter that you have also made simillarly odd references on other articles . - This is not WP:AGF. Please reword your questions.

Next even the external links on this article have a spin . - Spin? in what sense? What are you insinuating?
Thanks --Sikh-History 18:52, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Response 2 from Intothefire
Every single references provided on this article till the date of my first on (22nd Nov) message, are by User Sikh-history .No one else messed up or added references .

As for the changes you have now effected .
Page nos still missing on two references which are now ref no 2 and 3

Now: ref no 2 is from a set of books in three volumes ....which volume ??, which page no of that volume ??

Now: Ref no 6 from a website is not a primary , or secondary source fit for wikipedia .

Now: ref nos 7,8,and 9 are from one single article published on a website , by a gentleman about a book published by a person called Gurbaksh Singh 'Kala Afghana' who was excommunicated from Sikh Panth - Sri Akal Takhat Hukamnama . The book in question has cast doubts on the validity of the sacred Dasam Granth venerated by the Sikhs .

Now look at my table again

row 2and 3 ,was the mixing up of the two references of two different books presented as one , a mistake ?

Look at row 4 ....is this your opinion ?? or a credible quote from a verifiable source ...please provide a reference ???

Next look at row 5 ....why did you misquote the content clearly given on the SGPC website ...its still there see it again ??

Now lets look at your response above

Your point no3 says No Idea - someone's messed it up ...please see the history no one messed it , its the way you put it??

Your point no 4 says it is a summary of the paragraphs below. Please read the rest of the article...what kind of a reference is this ?? ....you provide a reference to your own summary in the article ????

Your point no 5 says the Gurumukhi version says "Kutha". Click on the bottom right of the site and the Gurmukhi version comes up. I also don't take kindly to accusations I deliberately misquoted. Please WP:Assume Good Faith. I will ignore it this time.. My friend am only quoting from the page you provided ...see the version in english ..please read it again ...I dont see anywhere in the reference you provided about it mentioning any other version .

your point no 7 says must be the second reference. Again, someone messed it up, I think I have corrected it,.....no , no one messed it , this is what you wrote yourself .Please check the history of the page .

Your point no 8 Sikh Times is a reliable source. I will kill the vegetarian world link and find a better one......you provide two sources ....one a non scholarly website ?? which you say you will now kill ?? and the other from The Sikh times . Is that a reliable source ...perhaps a knowledigible editor should be able to provide an informed opinion .

Your point nos 9 and 10 state Sikh Times . An article from a website about a book written by a person excommunicated from the sikh panth . 3 references from such a person's book .....and none from the mainstream Sikh opinion ?????
Considering your complaints and agressive deletions of content vis a vis other editors ,I think its time for an admin to see this and other odd edits by you .
Intothefire (talk) 17:47, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

ibid

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