Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 08:25, 16 February 2006

This page has been set up to discuss material that User:agapetos_angel would like to add to, or delete from, Jonathan Sarfati and related articles.

AA, if you would like to try this, please write out a very specific list of the precise sentences (please be very precise) you want to add to the article, and link to (or give a citation for) your source. Similarly, list the sentences that are currently in the article that you want to remove, and say exactly why.

It would be helpful not to go over what other editors have said in the past, because it makes the issue too complex for those of us not familiar with the background.

If you provide that list, I'm willing to go through it and give an opinion as to whether the additions/omissions seem acceptable and whether they conform with our editing policies. Cheers, SlimVirgin 01:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Others

1. "Sarfati is widely believed to be responsible for the theologyweb internet troll "Socrates".

It is very poor form for anyone, and even poorer form for admins, to keep adding this, although this claim was first inserted by a troll and rejected in Talk:Jonathan Sarfati/archive1#Unsupported allegation removed. Note also, "it is widely believed" are weasel words expressly verboten by the rules, and there is no acceptable source, as opposed to internet rumour-mongering. (an unsigned comment from User:220.245.180.133 --FeloniousMonk)

Any editor may challenge any edit by asking for a credible, published source. In the case of an Internet troll, it's not clear what a credible, published source would amount to (the New York Times has probably not written about it), so my inclination would be to remove the claim. SlimVirgin 00:56, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

While I'm inclined to agree for now, there must be some standard where such information could be included. Your argument leads to a general inability to talk about specific internet trolls on Misplaced Pages. (Incidentally, I'm attempting to find out more about the Socartes claim, but so far have found very little that is reliable). JoshuaZ 01:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

From talkorigins.org: Dr. Sarfati posts at TheologyWeb under the screen name "Socrates" with the habit of referring to himself in the third person. Good enough? Guettarda 01:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the website, Guettarda, or who Dave Moore is. The benchmark for what counts as a credible source is whether there is any form of third-party fact checking or editing, as there is with a newspaper or a book publisher. If there isn't, the website counts as a self-published source, and may be used as a source of information about itself, but may not be used as a third-party source i.e. as a source of information about anyone else. See WP:V. SlimVirgin 02:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Slim, lists talkorigis.org myriad awards and acknowledgements. They are pretty reliable. JoshuaZ 03:06, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Joshua. It seems it's a Usenet newsgroup, which means we can't use it as a source. See WP:RS#Bulletin_boards_and_posts_to_Usenet. SlimVirgin 03:14, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

talk.origins is a usenet group. talkorigins.org is an organization which has some connections to the usenet group. However, the talkorigins.org is respected(as should be obvious from some of the awards). JoshuaZ 03:19, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

PS - the text in question does not allege that he is Socrates, just that he is believed ot be Socrates. Guettarda 01:43, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Good enough for me, although I'm curious as to why talkorigins.org is convinced of this. JoshuaZ 01:49, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Probably because Socrates' profile on theology web (registration required) describes him as follows:

Location: Australia

Interests: Creation, apologetics

Occupation: Scientist

Guettarda 02:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, that is hardly convincing. On the internet people claiming to be scientists seem to be quite common. More interestingly if you look at the writing style of Socrates, it is very similar to Sarfati which is very similar to 220.*. Hmm...

We've moved very far off of what this page is supposed to be for, mainly because of me. I apologize for that. Similarities in writing style of the three should probably be moved to the main talk page. JoshuaZ 02:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

OK

SV, I still disagree with this, but I'll try it your way. I am addressing below the version as it stands right now: 02:52, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

See below agapetos_angel 02:52, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I would appreciate my points not been hacked up by other editors, asking contributions to the discussion be made at the end of the section under a separate subheader. Thanks agapetos_angel 03:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, AA. I'll take a look tonight and tomorrow. SlimVirgin 03:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I've done 4, for now, with notes at the bottom for other things I want to address. I am requesting those be left alone so that I can come back to them later. agapetos_angel

1

Sarfati has had papers published in peer-reviewed scientific journals (Abstracts available on ScienceDirect.com).

• Comment: While in the current version, removal was attempted. Abstracts are linked, confirming AiG bio. Each journal on the list was linked in Talk to show that articles are peer-reviewed. Abstracts from reputable source (sciencedirect) shows all are articles. A-->B, therefore, all are peer reviewed.
  • Recommend: Retention
    • Justification: Meets WP:V

D1

Discussion regarding # 1:

That seems fine to me. Pulling out two of those articles, they are (1) "Tetraphosphorus tetraselenide: crystalline and amorphous phases analysed by X-ray diffraction, Raman and magic angle spinning 31P NMR spectroscopy and differential scanning calorimetry", by Jonathan D. Sarfati, Gary R. Burns and Keith R. Morgan in Journal of Non-Crystalline Solids, Volume 188, Issues 1-2, 2 July 1995, Pages 93-97, and (2) "The pressure, temperature and excitation frequency dependent Raman spectra; and infrared spectra of CuBrSe3 and CuISe3", by Jonathan D. Sarfati and Gary R. Burns, in Spectrochimica Acta Part A: Molecular Spectroscopy, Volume 50, Issue 12, November 1994, Pages 2125-2136. Their existence means it's verified that he has had papers published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. SlimVirgin 03:39, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Also fine with this. JoshuaZ 03:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I've not been involved with this so far, but I think this problem could be reduced by being more specific. "Sarfati has had papers on Spectroscopy published in peer-reviewed scientific journals..." or maybe even the slightly less precise, but much more common and readable: "Sarfati has published papers on Spectroscopy in peer-reviewed scientific journals...". --Stephan Schulz 08:01, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

2

He also co-authored a "Letters to Nature" submission on high-temperature superconductors which appeared in 1987 in the journal Nature, when he was 22. (PDF file)

• Comment: Minor issue on this; 'submission ... which appeared in 1987' reduces this from publication to appearing to be more like a letter to the editor.
  • Recommend: Modification
    • Justification: Meets WP:V and NPOV
      • Suggestion: He also co-authored a "Letters to Nature" submission on high-temperature superconductors which was published when he was 22 (Nature (ISSN 0028-0836), vol. 328, July 16, 1987, p. 233, 234. (Abstract)(PDF file))
  • Alternative Recommendation: Removal with links to PDF and abstract under a new 'Resources' section (or similar title) which would include the AiG source links that I'll address further later. This would ultimately resolve any dispute over whether the guidelines for submission of 'Letters' were different in 1987.
    • Justification: Meets WP:V and NPOV (and MoS ?)

D2

Discussion regarding # 2:

One quick point (more will follow when I have time.) It is highly unecessary and slightly POVy to mention his age their (the phrasing makes it sound like that was a big deal, which imo, it isn't.) JoshuaZ 05:04, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Publishing in those journals is notable NPOV because of the emphasis on YEC in the article; age is not necessary. agapetos_angel 05:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I see no problem in adjusting the wording. These are indeed letters to the editor, so far as I'm aware, but having a letter to the editor published in Nature is not like having one published in The Times. The former is more prestigious and I think people realize that. I would agree with leaving out the age. SlimVirgin 07:43, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

This is I think this is my wording, but I don't propose to fight to the death for every comma. I don't think they're letters to the editor, but they are indeed called "Letters to Nature". I think the qualification is important as it's not the same as a full-length pub in Nature. "Submission" simply to avoid rep'n of the word "paper", used in the sentence immediately before. Otherwise I don't see what's "reducing" in this. I agree mentioning his age seems unnecessary, people can do the maths. Alai 07:52, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Letters to peer-reviewed journals often take the form of mini-papers. I just looked up what it costs to buy a Letter to Nature, and it's $30, the same as for any other paper. SlimVirgin 07:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Mini-papers to journals often are called "letters" (as in this case), but to describe them as "letters to the editor" would be misleading. The cost of "buying"(!) one category or other of pub does not necessarily equate to the difficulty (or cachet) of being accepted in that category. Alai 08:12, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

(edit clash with Alai) I've mentioned this before (lost in the talk page), but I do not think there is too much difference between a full length publication (article) and a letter to nature (not to be confusd with correspondance). Both are prestigious. There are usually one or two articles in each issue as opposed to about ten to fifteen letters. A letter is the norm and not really a 'mini-paper'. the mini-papers are called 'communication' or 'brevia', I forget which. David D. (Talk) 08:14, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Alai that price has nothing to do with quality or prestige in the same way that word count does not. David D. (Talk) 08:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

(clash with previous editors) ::::: The change to 'submission ... appeared' was used to indicate, IIRC, that the paper might not have been peer-reviewed. However, Letters to Nature are peer-reviewed as a rule ("The following types of contribution to Nature are peer reviewed: ... Letters ...") agapetos_angel 08:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of any of the points above, a submission of some kind (letter, mini-paper) was published, so there's no harm in using the word "published." SlimVirgin 08:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

3

Sarfati is married with one stepson.

• Comment: Attempts made to change do not meet policy
  • Recommend: Retain above version (source)
    • Justification: Change violates Misplaced Pages:No original research, namely 'material added to articles by Misplaced Pages editors that has not been published already by a reputable source'
      • Reasons given: for inclusion appear to be that an editor 'found' it
        • Objection: not linked to subject of article
    • Justification: Change violates Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources
      • Reasons given: are not readily apparent
        • Objection: "Articles should rely on credible, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Submission to that source is a fill-in web form with no indication that the facts are checked or accurate. Credibility is not met (and in fact, suspect because cache shows recent change of information)

D3

Discussion regarding # 3:

• I would agree with removing the wife's name, regardless of how good the source is. It adds nothing to the article, which is not about her, unless it can be shown that she is in some way notable in relation to him, or in her own right. But as there has been an objection, I'd say leave it out in accordance with WP:LIVING. SlimVirgin 07:48, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

4

Critics and supporters of Sarfati often disagree whether he should be considered a scientist. Young Earth Creationism is considered a pseudoscience by almost all scientists. Supporters argue that his doctorate in physical chemistry qualifies him as a scientist. The creationist website Answers in Genesis to which Sarfati contributes lists many creationists who are active in science (though for work unconnected to creationism), and advises readers that many of the founders of modern science, such as Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell had a general belief in the creator God of the Bible and opposed evolution. A point critics reject as invalid since evolutionary theory was not developed until after many of those listed had died. Sarfati suggests that evolutionary ideas date back at least to Greek philosophers, and these scientists were well aware of them . His view is not widely shared in the scientific community. and these earlier evolutionary ideas were very different from the modern theory. Sarfati's doctorate is in physical chemistry. Some critics question his knowledge in apparently unrelated fields- namely biology and astronomy.

• Comment: Section is a complex, unverifiable mess as it now stands. Have previously recapped objection but will repeat if deemed necessary.
  • Recommend: Removal until revised to meet WP:V
    • Justification: (1) 'The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it'
    • Justification: (2) '... unless the article or information is about a living person, in which case remove the unsourced information'
      • Reasons given: for inclusion appear to vary, but main reason seems to be assertion that sources within the section support the statements as given.
        • Objection: Weasel words and unsourced/unattributed statements are unverifiable, and violate WP:OR because they are editor opinion rather than attributed statements (and WP:NPOV appears violated for the same reason).
          • Additional Comment: Sources within a section does not equal sources that support the section in entirety. Note (again) that I am not objecting to inclusion of similar statements, but that they have to not violate policy.

D4

Discussion regarding # 4:

I'm inclined to have a slight agreement with Agapetos here. I suggested a revised version earlier which Agapetos rejected, making a number of suggestions and requests. I hope to have a draft which deals with those issues by sometime this Friday. JoshuaZ 04:26, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Joshua, I don't know if you meant to imply that I rejected it outright. I said, 'I think it was a good attempt, but still needs work'. I don't want to get into a he said/she said. But I must point out that my objective was always to have the OR removed and the section meet WP:V. I was willing to work with you on the revisions, including suggestions I already gave you on how to proceed from your draft (paragraph that begins "Why the use of 'some critics' (weasel) when you have names?" ) agapetos_angel 04:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply that you had rejected it outright. That was poor phrasing on my part. Sorry. JoshuaZ 04:53, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay. No worries. agapetos_angel 05:03, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The section violates WP:NOR in that it is an unsourced argument. Even if sources could be found for each individual point, the overall thrust of the argument might have to be sourced too, because NOR prohibits the publication of any unpublished synthesis of ideas, where the synthesis is used to advance a particular position. In other words, it would be safer to find someone who had actually made that particular overall point and attribute the position to them, rather than to find sources for each individual part of the argument. Joshua, I suppose it depends on what your sources say. SlimVirgin 07:56, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that this rises to OR; I agree on the weaselly wording and lack of an explicit source. How notable any of his various critics that have levelled such charges, may also be an issue. Alai 08:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Given that a position is being advanced without sources, the paragraph does indeed rise to OR by definition. SlimVirgin 08:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Balance of Article to be addressed

His latest book, Refuting Compromise is a rebuttal of the day-age creationist teachings of Dr. Hugh Ross, who attempts to harmonize the Genesis account of creation with the belief that the earth is billions of years old, a position which Sarfati rejects.

• Address: WP:CON and NPOV; what is 'wrong' with keeping the Ross information, which explains the reason for the most current book that Sarfati authored?

• I'm unclear about the context, but I assume someone keeps removing the reference to Ross? The question is: is the latest Sarfati book a rebuttal of Ross's creationist account? If Sarfati says that it is in his book (whether he specifically uses the word "rebuttal" or not), it's worth mentioning. If not, then not. SlimVirgin 08:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

• My copy has on the front cover, "A Biblical and Scientific Refutation of "Progressive Creationism" (Billions of Years) As Popularized by Astronomer Hugh Ross".220.245.180.133 08:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Sarfati is the club captain/director-of-play for the Logan City Chess Club, Australia. He gives frequent "blindfold" chess exhibits at AiG conferences,(PDF) as well as chess clubs and has been known to play twelve such games simultaneously. His previous best was winning 11/11 at the Kapiti Chess Club in New Zealand (Roberts, E., New Zealand Chess 29(3):23, June 2003).

• Address: Do we really need club captain? LCCC link with games and pictures can be worked into the section without the extra fluff.

• As above, if he is the club captain, and there is a credible published source for it, I see no harm in mentioning it. SlimVirgin 08:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Sarfati has strongly defended the pro-life cause. Thus he opposes abortion for any reason except to save the life of the mother and opposes embryonic stem cell research, while supporting adult stem cell research. He has also argued that the Bible contradicts slavery and apartheid , and argued that Nazism owed much to evolutionary ideas.

• Moral issues subsection needs to be MoSed. Overlinkage can be reduced to one link per point. Better: suggest 'Resources'/'Moral issues', where subsections can give subsection sources.

• Lots of links are better than too few. I don't support the removal of links unless the articles or websites linked to are poor sources, or are entirely repetitive. SlimVirgin 08:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

1988, FIDE Master title, Fédération Internationale des Échecs or World Chess Federation

• Address proper name and linke to FIDE. This neutral edit kept getting reverted.

• Again, if this true and properly sourced, I don't see the problem with it. SlimVirgin 08:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

External links

• Needs to be MoSed

• Not sure what this means. SlimVirgin 08:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)